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SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SCIENCE díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Jun 2010

Annual Output Statement 2010

I welcome the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Mary Coughlan, the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills, Deputy Seán Haughey, and their officials. This meeting will consider the Revised Estimates and output statement for the Department of Education and Skills — Vote 26. A proposed timetable has been circulated for today's meeting. The timetable normally allows for opening statements by the Minister and a discussion on the Estimates and the output statement. We have had a discussion on this and I believe the Minister is amenable to taking the statement as read.

There is just one typographical error we need to change.

Is it agreed that the error be corrected? Agreed.

With a view to proceeding as expeditiously as possible, I ask Deputy Brian Hayes to put questions to the Minister.

I welcome the Minister and Minister of State. I will focus on the issue of the schools building programme. The expenditure target across primary and post-primary education for this year is €578 million. One of the problems last year was that the Department could not spend the money it was given and it effectively had to hand back €79 million to the Department of Finance and obtain permission to spend it this year. Is the Minister for Education and Skills confident that her Department will be able to spend the €578 million in the Vote designated for capital projects this year? Will she have to seek the permission of the Department of Finance to carry over money next year?

I am glad to appear before the committee. With regard to the schools building programme, we just announced the summer works scheme, worth €126 million. It will be shown that expenditure at present is under profile on the capital side. Yesterday evening I received a further evaluation of all of the capital expenditure figures. There are a number of projects that are slower than we anticipated. It is unfortunate that when an allocation is made, a planning problem or other issue arises, thus causing a delay. We will have to look into this.

I do not envisage underexpenditure of the magnitude of last year. I am currently envisaging underspending but evaluating whether a number of other projects can move ahead to ensure it will not happen.

That is good news. My understanding is that in the first four months of this year, only 12% of the budget was spent.

That is correct. It is because of the weather, the payments and the draw-down of the payments. Expenditure will mainly be on the summer works scheme. The money for this was only just allocated. As the Deputy knows, the work is carried out by the schools during the summer holidays. That is why there was such low expenditure in the first four months of this year. I expect it to escalate dramatically by September approximately.

The Minister is not confident that the €578 million will be spent in its entirely this year.

I cannot say for definite. We are on profile, as matters stand, on the basis of the summer works scheme and a number of large projects going ahead this year. One or two schools that colleagues have brought to my attention are problematic in that their projects are not moving as quickly as necessary to draw down the last payment at the end of the year. I am evaluating whether other works could be carried out in that context. We have achieved better value for money than last year on some of the tenders. One of the tenders represents extraordinary value for money.

I am worried that if the vultures in Merrion Street see the Department of Education and Skills is incapable of spending its capital allocation for two years in a row, they will do what I would do if I were them, namely, take it away from the Department. Will the Minister consider lateral ways of spending capital and consider, for example, the stock of decent prefabs the Department has and convert their rental into a capital purchase, particularly if they have a decent lifespan? The Tánaiste has inherited a unit in Tullamore that is notoriously slow because it was designed as a rationing system, not a system for grant allocation and it is hard to turn that tanker around. If the Department receives requests within the framework of the capital grant, which clearly the Tánaiste will have trouble spending because the winter weather was such a deterrent, will she give favourable consideration on a case by case basis?

On the conversion to purchase of prefabs, there is no problem with that but people do not want to buy prefabs because they see them as a temporary measure and do not want them to become permanent. A more pragmatic response is that they want the money in lieu. If there is a five year rental left, they will take the purchase price and convert it into cash to go towards a permanent building.

The issue has been the way in which these are evaluated. We are working with a number of other authorities, such as the OPW and local authorities, to facilitate and expedite that work. The Department does not have the technical staff and I have asked that we find new ways to deliver the programme. I will be more than happy to move on that type of idea, it is a good idea and is what we want.

That is what we are asking the Tánaiste to confirm. If individual applicants are being considered for capital projects for school expansion or consolidation, would the Tánaiste consider alternative ways of assuring a capital spend by the end of the year?

I do not have a problem with that. The only issue is that some people have said that they will build an extension if the Department gives them a certain amount of money. The problem is that their application was not submitted by 15 December to draw down the money.

Is it a problem that when the Tánaiste is making announcements, she does not make enough of them. Of the 78 schools I have been banging on about for the past year where decisions were taken in 2008, about half of them have been constructed. It takes so long because the Tánaiste does not make enough announcements. If she made more announcements at the start, there would be a greater draw down. Some are more successful than others in drawing down money, we accept that, but the problem is that the number of announcements made does not allow for all of the projects to go to tender.

In 2005 and 2006 we had a capital overspend of almost €100 million. It is a serious problem if there is an overspend one year and there is no money the following year. Given difficulties with capital spending at present, I take the Deputy's point. We have had to work on that point with the Department of Finance. If someone is not in a position to draw down the money, why should he have it in the first place? The bottom line is that a number of projects are taking longer than anticipated and the estimated costs have gone down even more dramatically than they did last year. I would be concerned that they would be too low and I would end up with a mess three months into the contract when the contractor is not in a position to follow through.

The reason it takes longer is because the Department of Finance introduced a new tendering system two years ago and it has proven problematic. The argument was that it would be problematic in the first year but in year two schools, architects and contractors would be aware of the procedures. That was a real issue but the Tánaiste's problem is that she is not making enough announcements early in the year.

One can make announcements and I intend to make more announcements later this year to allow for the spend from 1 January 2011. Announcements cannot be made, however, when the financial wherewithal to pay for a project cannot be clearly demonstrated. The final payment tranche can often come 18 months after the start of the project. While we manage our finances in this way, I would be even more mistaken if I found myself overspending such that I could not even realise the capital programme the following year.

I have been through the capital budget twice since my appointment and we are looking at other ways in which certain issues can be resolved within schools, such as minor works to alleviate problems in schools. The minor works scheme and similar grants offer more ways to draw down cash and allow principals to deal with issues such as painting, fences and playgrounds.

To come back to the present system that the Tánaiste has inherited, it is not working as efficiently as it could or should. It is a system of rationing dressed up as due caution. No one in this room invented that system. Will the Tánaiste look at ways of accelerating the system in a prudent way? Will she meet the construction industry representatives to see if they can help. They are hanging around idly, full of ideas and desperate for work while the Tánaiste has money to spend and children who need schools. It is a "no-brainer" that the Tánaiste sits down and accelerates programmes within the spirit and letter of the law.

That is the issue, if I can get it signed off or not.

If she meets with them then she might get some interesting ideas. I am not asking her to be reckless with public money.

I have been to see the Department of Fiance about the tendering because many smaller contractors are not getting into the medium size contracts that would be well within their range because criteria set down are based on a turnover of €10 million. Not many have that capability so I have asked the Department of Finance and the OPW to change that regulation. I hope our spending on summer works this year will allow for that.

It is clearly not my intention to have capital underspending. As things stand, we will not have underspending of the magnitude that happened last year.

Is that €79 million back this year?

Yes. Like the Deputy, I have plenty of schools to get sorted.

One of the ways to ensure the money is spent is to spend it on summer works. The Tánaiste granted 1,490 projects this year but there were 2,300 applications so not all of them were granted.

Yes, we have a number of appeals, many of them for small projects. Some of those appeals will be successful.

That is a good way to spend small amounts on small capital works. The Tánaiste stated that the global amount for renting prefabs had fallen to €35 million in the Estimate. We were spending much more two years ago, so that is a good thing. In a recent reply to me on 18 May, however, the Tánaiste said the Department spent €2.5 million buying out rental contracts for prefabs. The oldest rental contract that has been purchased to date is 1995, with the most recent being 2008. Is the Tánaiste saying that in 2008 a contract was agreed with a school to lease prefabs and we are now buying it out?

Because of the change of policy 18 months ago, where a school can get a block grant of money per classroom in lieu of a prefab, schools that were in leasing agreements from 2006, 2007 or 2008, and which have expanded and are entitled to another classroom, are converting that classroom into money and want to buy out the contract to allow for that. In all instances, a school principal wants to ensure permanent classrooms rather than prefabs. I have met a number of innovators in the construction sector, who are introducing modular buildings. I took the opportunity to visit Tegral Building Products Limited when I was in County Kildare and I met a company in Galway carrying out this work. They are bringing new ideas to the market, in terms of leasing.

The problem is getting through Tullamore. These companies have met us as well and are worn out coming to us.

The technical people have met. We have the same amount, if not fewer staff, for more spending and more throughputs in the Department. We have lost a number of technical people who will not be replaced because of the moratorium. We are going through new models. For example, Monaghan VEC is carrying out work on behalf of the Department to provide a campus for a secondary school and two primary schools so that the model can be replicated in other VECs in order to deliver programmes. The Mayo VEC CEO has spoken about doing something similar on a campus basis. People will take the work done by Monaghan VECs and transfer it for use elsewhere.

Regarding the existing rent paid by the Department to some 30 providers of temporary accommodation across the country, the Minister negotiated downwards. With commercial and residential rents tumbling, one wonders why we cannot see rents to prefab companies tumble. Where are these negotiations at the moment? What is the actual amount spent on rental?

We are negotiating as much out of rental as we can.

Rents are falling elsewhere.

We are negotiating the overall rental schemes but the message I have received from principals is that they want to get out of renting.

The market has changed. Where the choice has been made to remain with rental but reduce the cost and where the Department is the only buyer and represents the entire market, can the Minister muscle in on the suppliers and tell them the world has changed and that everyone has taken a reduction? If the social welfare cohort in this society can take a 5% reduction, surely those renting prefabs can take a 5% reduction where there is no change to the contract in terms of the building. The Deputy's question is: where are these negotiations?

There are ongoing negotiations with those who provide prefabs.

For the past 18 months I have been told that by the Department.

Some of them have been finalised.

I am concerned about the provision of school transport and I have raised the matter with the Minister of State, Deputy Haughey, on numerous occasions. In the past two years, the cost for the junior cycle has increased from €99 per term to €300. This is putting people off the road. Last year, 10,000 people out of 125,000 people opted out of school transport. This is because it is so expensive. It is putting major pressure on hard-pressed parents to afford school transport and they are considering other options. We are talking about sustainable transport and this measure is anti-family and anti-rural. Two weeks ago the Sunday newspapers carried an article suggesting it was proposed to raise the cost from €300 to €500. Surely this cannot be true. I would like to hear the views of the Minister of State on this.

It costs €186 million to run the school transport scheme. The current arrangements will remain in place for the academic year 2010-11. We are discussing this matter against the background of the recommendations of the McCarthy report, which recommended setting the charge for primary and post-primary transport at €500 per year, which is 50% of the full economic cost. The State is in a difficult financial position and preliminary discussions are about to commence with the Department of Finance in respect of the 2011 Estimates. The McCarthy report must be considered in that context. Deputy Feighan stated the number of students has dropped by 10,000. Some 125,000 children now use the scheme. We will wait to see the number of applications for the coming academic year and we expect the numbers will increase. People may have opted out because of the increased charges but then realised it is a good service. I will be able to comment on that when we see who applies for places on the scheme next year.

Can the Minister of State provide a commitment that school transport charges will not increase? Mr. McCarthy and the Minister of State, Deputy Haughey, come from an area that does not use the school transport system. In rural areas, where we come from, there are no other ways of transporting children to school. There is no public transport, no trains, no Luas and no Dart. This problem must be highlighted because many parents will not understand until it hits them in the pocket next September or September 2011. This will undermine the viability of rural school transport as we know it.

Several issues are involved for rural Ireland. I refer in particular to the danger if children find an alternative to school transport. There is a danger they will be on narrow roads and serious accidents could happen. School buses have been involved in many accidents.

How competitive is the contracting situation with regard to private operators and Bus Éireann? How open is competition or is the matter a fait accompli? It is a tragedy that a high percentage of prefabricated buildings are imported from England through Northern Ireland. One company has the whole thing wrapped up from that source. New modular units coming on the market have a major advantage for the Department. The proposed lease purchase package is more attractive than the packages in place heretofore. The buildings are guaranteed for a life span of 50 years and this aspect must be considered. A company in Galway is to the fore in this respect and has installed units throughout the country. They are connected using Tegral products and crushed glass. School authorities using them find them to be excellent compared to traditional models. Can we state that we have a preference for Irish products? In Tullamore there was suspicion that the products would not be in accordance with the requirements. They have to get away from that idea and get rid of traditional prefabs. I hope there is a more transparent process around contracting for school transport.

We are fully committed to a school transport scheme and a value for money review was set up to look at the aims and objectives of the scheme which is currently being finalised. The charges in place represent approximately 7% of the costs of the scheme. Even after the three rounds of increases, which followed ten years without increases, this represents very good value for money compared with the private sector. Figures have been mentioned of between €700 and €800 for somebody opting for a private school transport service. Bus Éireann runs the scheme for the Department of Education and Skills as it is the only company capable of delivering the scheme, given its complexity and scale. However, we are continually pressing Bus Éireann to implement efficiencies and save money where possible.

The Minister of State says the cost of private transport would be €800 per annum but difficulties arose in Gort and Kinvara because of the catchment area. Girls were bussed from Gort to Kinvara for half of the cost of what Bus Éireann would charge. If that is the way CIE contracts its services this will be a flop.

One would need the d'Hondt system for Gort and Kinvara. I am getting to know these places very well. I do not think even Kofi Annan could sort out the problem of school transport. It would be wrong to assume the Minister of State is not fully aware of rural issues and school transport. He is unlucky in one way——

His colleague, Senator Callely, is certainly fully aware of the issues.

I and the Minister of State, Deputy Mary White, have driven him mad over the issue.

Special needs students are very much a Dublin issue but I also have an understanding of the school transport scheme.

When I was in Galway I met some of the people who provide modular buildings. There is a tendering process and people are entitled to access that process. However, I was anxious to encourage new innovative companies in the construction sector. I like the permanency of the new modular systems, and the fact that they are concrete-based and have good insulation to allow better aeration. I have been in a number of them and they are like new buildings.

I am also anxious to ensure that water harvesting is included to save on water rates. I have asked my technical people to work through some of their frustrations at not being able to get into the market. One cannot interfere in certain tenders because of EU rules and often the local board of management has to take the steps to conclude a rental agreement. Nevertheless, a number of the companies, many of whom are supported by Enterprise Ireland, have told me they can facilitate a school for a small fee. I am very open to facilitating Irish companies in bringing their products to the market, especially when we already sell them abroad. I would like to see a pilot scheme in which all these companies could have an opportunity to participate. If they work well, their own reputation will take them where they want to go.

We will take the last three speakers together, Deputies Flynn and O'Mahony and the Chairman.

I welcome the Tánaiste and the Minister of State. It gives us an opportunity to acknowledge that a spend of €9.3 billion in the area of education is very significant, employing up to 5,000 people in the construction sector.

In the current climate, in which we get better value for money in tenders for new schools, the tenders are so competitive that builders are going out of business. What kind of difficulties does this situation create? It certainly creates a time delay for the relevant schools.

I am also looking for reassurance on special education and see that €1.1 billion is to go towards special needs provision. The Minister said there would be a saving of €42 million from reduced salary costs. We are in the middle of a review of SNAs and the Minister of State gave a reassurance on that issue in the Dáil. Can he repeat his reassurance at this committee? The review was not intended to save money in that area. Can he confirm that any money will be ploughed back into special education and any savings will be made strictly from the public sector pay cuts?

The Minister of State said he was waiting for the number of applications to be known for September. Will the numbers influence whether the charges are to be increased? What if there is a further decrease in the numbers? If this goes up to 500, as was suggested in a Sunday newspaper, one will eliminate school transport altogether.

The Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Coughlan, mentioned the summer works scheme. Did she say there is likely to be a higher percentage of successful appeals than in the past? I agree that a lot of the money is very well spent. When will schools know about their appeals?

There was a need for the rapid provision of schools in rapidly developing areas but in rural areas schools have been falling down for up to 20 years. Have they any hope or will the focus of the building be on developing areas?

Deputies Quinn and Brian Hayes have signalled that they have supplementary questions. If they can keep them to within 30 seconds I will let them come back in after I have finished.

I will ask the Minister of State, Deputy Haughey, about school transport. His colleague the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, floated the idea of integrating the special needs services provided by the Department of Health and Children into rural transport schemes. This might be a way of integrating some of the less well-serviced routes as part of a package. Buses can then be used for special needs children and for schoolchildren and rural citizens around the country, which would provide huge economies of scale.

On creative ways of spending the budget, there have been calls from schools to introduce ways of cutting their costs. I refer, for example, to geothermal heating, wind turbines and solar panels. While some of those suggestions might not be efficient in the short term, if the Department of Education and Skills considered a number of sites where a wind turbine could be put up, that is a capital cost that could provide energy for the school and also provide revenue for the Department on an ongoing basis. Funding for such a capital project could be spent over a period of time. That is something to consider.

Something else for the Minister to consider is to have multi-use buildings. I welcome the idea of a campus. There is an example in my constituency that might be useful in that regard. The Department could construct a modular multi-use community facility for primary and second level schools that is also a community hub which could be rented out to the community at a reasonable cost. That might be a way of spending money on large capital projects for communities rather than individual schools.

On the planning side, schools have not been allowed to progress to the planning application stage for various reasons. It is important to remember that a planning application does not fall for five years, so even if an application is not accepted in one year at least the application would be ready as soon as the money became available. If one school has received planning permission and it overtakes another school that has fallen back due to other issues, at least one school can be progressed and the money can be allocated straight away. I am aware of an example in my area, Gaelscoil Eiscir Riada, which has received a site from the VEC. There are problems to be ironed out but it could, technically, apply for planning permission now rather than having to wait until the problems are ironed out. That could help move the conveyor belt forward. The transparency of the system needs to be reviewed and people need to know where they stand.

I looked at the Revised Estimates last night but I could not find a subhead for school books. We had no money last year but we have money this year. It was in the renewed programme for Government. Will the Tánaiste confirm that the amount she is considering now is €11 per pupil in non-DEIS schools and €22 per pupil in DEIS schools? Will she make that announcement now to the committee?

I wish to follow up on that because there was an agreement that the proportionate amount on the book grant as well as a number of grants at second level would be increased on capitation. That was worked out. Confusion abounds among schools. They do not know how the money is to be allocated. They need to be told that the capitation is being increased or that schools are being maintained at the same level. Clarity is required on whether the money is specifically for books or physics and chemistry, for example.

There will be no change to the school charges system for the academic year 2010-11. School transport, in the same way as every other vote in the Department, will be and must be considered in the context of the Estimates process for 2011.

On the Chairman's point, the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, announced a sustainable travel and transport plan. A school transport section is represented in that process. We are looking at the possible integration of services. We will examine the matter further. That will form part of the value for money school transport review. I am sure it will contain recommendations on the point raised.

Because it is so competitive, one could find oneself in a situation where a person was not in a position to complete a project. We are cognisant of that, the standards that have been set and the rigorous manner in which contracts are being examined is to try to avoid that happening if at all possible. Members are aware there is a bond, but that said, we have not thus far had any such issues arise. We are very much aware of the need to ensure that the contractor has the capacity to complete the work in the case of any contract that is signed. Unfortunately, in some cases the Department has paid the money to the contractor but the contractor has not paid the person down the line. That is a matter of concern of which we are very much aware.

There is no policy change on special needs assistants, SNAs. The review should be completed fairly soon and it will be published. The interim review has been published thus far. The main reason for the reduction is the 5% reduction in salaries.

Deputy O'Mahony inquired about the summer works scheme. Having had a cursory glance at the appeals, many of them were disallowed on the basis of the provision of inadequate information but we have allowed people to resubmit their views. In the next few days I hope to be able to allow that to go ahead so that schools can get on with their projects as quickly as possible.

There is a view that every bob that is spent on the capital side must be spent in the rapidly growing areas. Anyone who knows me is aware that I will take a balanced approach. The most important issue is that we must provide rooms for children. A number of my predecessors had to grapple with rapidly growing areas where we did not have places for young people. We have a programme of work based on the census. A number of once rapidly growing areas are now stagnant and may not need what has been prescribed.

There will be no growth.

The Deputy is correct; there will be no growth in some of those areas.

Is it no longer 40 areas?

I have not changed the policy but I have asked the Department to review it on the basis that there is no necessity to build schools where they are not needed. That is the bottom line.

I also received many complaints from colleagues who say areas have been chosen as rapidly growing areas to the detriment of some existing places. I do not wish to see that happen. I can see how jealousy develops. That is natural if someone gets a new school while someone else is struggling with ten prefabs. All of the Members present raised issues with me about schools that are stuck.

I accept some of them are badly stuck. Schools in rural areas and smaller towns are as deserving of support as anyone else. We have drawn up an inventory which was published yesterday evening. We now know what we have, which is a good start.

It is two years later.

It is done now anyway. It is on the website. It went live yesterday evening. It is done.

It is done on the website.

It is always important to know what one is dealing with. I will be taking a balanced approach in which I will be cognisant of two things. Much of the emphasis has been on primary education but a need will arise in second level education next. I am conscious of the need for planning in second level education in particular areas.

On the issue of multi-use buildings, I am of the view that the campus approach can work very well in some areas where one only needs one PE hall, for example, or where playing fields can be used by all of the children. It is only a matter of managing the facilities. One can have superb facilities and provide for children of different age brackets in two or three schools as well as providing for communities. I briefed myself on some of the work that is taking place in Fingal County Council which is innovative and has allowed both the local authority and the Department to work together.

On the projects that are at architectural planning and where schools are keen to move on to the next stage and get planning permission, I am favourably disposed towards that. Deputy Burke and I attended a haymaker of a meeting last week about a project that has been around for a long time. It is a priority for all of the Deputies.

It is a priority.

I know. I am acutely aware of that.

Is the Minister confirming it?

No, not yet. What I want to do in the delivery of projects is to bring a number of projects to a certain stage and if something does not work out then one can have something on the shelf to move quickly forward. The only reservation I have is that if one says to someone that a project has planning permission there is a natural expectation which would need to be managed. I am now examining where everyone is within the scheme to see whether a number of initiatives can be used.

On school books, what used to happen is that people had to apply every year but we have stopped that. Many teachers gave out about the fact that they had to apply every year. It is proposed that there be a per capita allocation to the schools for the purchase of the books. We urge that the book rental scheme be used because it is as important. It is a very effective way of reducing the cost to parents. Funding will be made available in June of this year. The money will, therefore, be received before the end of the academic year. From next year, it will be integrated into the school capitation scheme.

Is that €11 per pupil?

Yes. There is €5.78 million.

It is €22 in DEIS schools, or was two years ago.

There was nothing last year.

It is half what it was two years ago.

Point taken.

Parents are put to the pin of their collars trying to provide books for their children at this time of the year, yet the allocation is half what it was two years ago.

A sum of €19 million is being provided under the capitation scheme at current levels. The allocation will also enable extra funding to be allocated for school books and to deal with curricular activities as part of the Renewed Programme for Government.

That is only €11 per child. It is the cost of two pints.

Regarding a book as the equivalent of two pints is not particularly progressive from the Department's perspective. The issue is that the money will be allocated through the capitation scheme. Heretofore, it was not available.

It was not available last year.

The book rental scheme is often a more appropriate way to reduce costs to parents. I am very cognisant of curricular change and the impact it might have on the provision of new textbooks.

I want clarification on the capital spend and the possibility of very much reduced but nevertheless surplus capital at the end of the year. Would the Minister be prepared, in principle, to consider that an existing school could possibly buy an empty adjoining school if it achieved the desired objective?

I would have to discuss it with the Deputy.

We have to start thinking differently.

It has taken the Department two years to come around to the idea of creating an inventory of what it possesses. In terms of the planning nonsense, perhaps it is time for the Department to consider invoking the strategic planning infrastructure legislation,——

——looking at the stock so it will know what it has and getting some blanket clearance so one will not be talking about Mr. Murphy's extension or some hydroelectric scheme when talking about schools and children. An extra 100,000 children are coming down the tracks. It takes five years to get a project through the building unit. The children born tonight will be knocking on the door in four years and will be knocking on the doors of prefabs unless we speed up the process.

Part of the new strategy work being done and the development plans include a number of our school projects. I and the Minister of State, Deputy Haughey, are of the view that the inclusiveness of those as strategic sites is very important.

Proceeding is not as easy as it might be in certain parts of the country where neighbours raise objections. Naturally, the board of management and the teachers do not want to fall out with their neighbours, but schools should be very much part of strategic planning. I am not averse to following that through.

Can the Minister of State tell us when he will finalise the review of the school catchment areas and when we will see the final report?

About 95% of the work is done. We are just finalising a few issues. I expect the report to be published shortly.

It is almost complete and we just want to get it right. When it is completed it will be published and sent to this committee immediately. The report is fundamental work and is comprehensive. Members will have a great deal to say about it when it is published.

I thank the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Coughlan, the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills, Deputy Haughey, and their officials for attending.

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