Select Committee on Education and Skills díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Nov 2017

Business of Select Committee

Chairman

All mobile phones should be switched off as we know they cause interference with the recording equipment in the committee rooms even if they are in silent mode. Apologies have been received from Deputy Tony McLoughlin but I understand he will join us at a later stage when Deputy Madigan leaves to attend another meeting.

This meeting has been convened to consider Committee Stage of the Technological Universities Bill 2015. The Bill provides for the merger of institutes of technology and for the process of merged institutes to apply for designation as a technological university. The Bill was introduced in 2015. I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills, Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor, who has special responsibility for higher education, and her officials to this meeting. I understand she will make an opening statement.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor)

This legislation is a high priority for the Government and is important and ground-breaking legislation. The Bill is seeking to establish technological universities for the first time in Ireland and that constitutes a step change for the institute of technology sector and will underpin the development of a new type of higher education institution. The Bill had been agreed on Committee Stage previously but following the dissolution of the Thirty-first Dáil my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Bruton, undertook to consult with stakeholders on the provisions in the Bill and the rationale for the approach to the development of technological universities. As part of that process a clarification document was subsequently agreed between the Department, the Teachers' Union of Ireland, TUI, and the Technological Higher Education Association. TUI members voted to accept the agreement in June 2017 and suspended its industrial action in relation to the development of the technological universities. A clarification document was also provided to IMPACT as part of this process. The establishment of the technological universities will strengthen the skills, research and innovation capacity in the regions and support economic and social development.

Before we discuss the amendments circulated for today I would like to notify the committee that I am also finalising additional amendments which I propose to table on Report Stage. With the permission of the Chair and in the interests of ensuring fairness and respect to the committee I will mention them briefly. I intend on Report Stage, subject to the advice of the Attorney General and Government approval, to bring forward amendments to provide the Minister for Education and Skills with a new power to appoint an investigator to publicly funded higher education institutions. The provision will also require a consequential amendment to the Long Title of the Bill.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I welcome the Minister of State and her officials to the committee today. I thank the officials for the information they provided when I asked for it. That is very welcome. I acknowledge that much work has gone on in recent years to get this right. I acknowledge the work of the various institutions, the officials, Ministers and trade unions. The TUI has been key. It is very important that as politicians we do not interfere in any of the industrial relations matters that pertain to the Bill.

I look forward to going through the Bill in detail. It is very welcome. It needs to happen fairly quickly. The Minister of State mentioned that she will table amendments on Report Stage on the investigators and I fully support that. There is some resistance from certain people but we think it needs to happen. However, I would not like to see the Bill delayed because of that. I got slightly nervous when the Minister of State mentioned the Attorney General's advice and the approval of the Government. We want to see the Bill go forward and for the institutions that are ready to start moving to make progress. One institution will be ready to start the process in March. We do not want anything to hold that up.

Given that the Minister of State is introducing amendments to the Universities Act I will bring forward amendments to allow the Royal College of Surgeons to designate itself as a university within the jurisdiction and not just abroad, as has been the case in recent years. That is a bit of an anomaly. I mention that now but it will be for discussion on Report Stage.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

I welcome the Minister of State and congratulate her on the work she has done on the Bill, which can be a key driver of economic and social progress. The rationale behind the Bill is to strengthen the talent pool in the regions, including Dublin, and that is to be welcomed. I also very much welcome that the Government wants to treble the number of apprenticeships available. We are looking at approximately 73 new areas. I also welcome that there will be 11 major STEM-based projects. Am I allowed to ask a question?

Chairman

Not at this point. We are only having statements.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

That is fine. I very much welcome the Bill and all the hard work the Minister of State has done.

Chairman

Do either of the remaining members wish to make a statement? No, okay, we will move on.

Deputy Joan Burton

I wish to comment.

Chairman

I beg Deputy Joan Burton's pardon. I had written the Deputy's name down.

Deputy Joan Burton

It is all right.

Like others, I welcome the Minister of State here today. This is an enormously important Bill for the institutes of technology around the country, for the Dublin Institute of Technology and the Cork Institute of Technology which are two of the larger institutes of technology and where mergers with other institutes of technology have also been part of the proposals. As someone who worked for a significant period of time as a senior lecturer in the Dublin Institute of Technology, I was heavily involved in the original move to the concept of technological universities and I want to declare my interest.

The issues for the institute of technology sector are that nowadays, the prerequisite is to have something that has very clearly a university status. The work that is done in the colleges, in terms of allowing access to third level education all over Ireland, is an important social asset in this country but it is also important to employers in terms of identifying people who will have, in particular, not only broad educational development but professional development, for example, in engineering, in accounting and in other specific professional fields. That has always been recognised as a strong merit point with technological universities.

I want to mention a couple of issues which I hope the Minister of State will address in the course of the discussion on this. I note there are a number of amendments being put forward on the status of the trade unions in the governance of the university and the students' union.

Chairman

This is not Second Stage. We must get into the specific sections.

Deputy Joan Burton

I merely want to mention one issue to the Minister of State.

Chairman

Is this in regard to one of the amendments?

Deputy Joan Burton

Yes.

Chairman

The Deputy must wait until we get to that.

Deputy Joan Burton

Can I just finish my sentence? I want to raise the poor terms and conditions under which staff, such as assistant lecturers, are recruited. As these are the principal prized postgraduate qualified staff in Ireland, the way they are being treated makes no sense from the State's point of view. As things stand many of them will get up and leave. They are not being treated in a fair and equal way.

Chairman

I will move on to the Bill.