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Select Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science díospóireacht -
Thursday, 10 Feb 2022

Vote 45 - Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Revised)

I welcome the Minister and Ministers of State. We will begin with the 2022 Revised Estimates for Education - Vote 26. Later, we will have the Revised Estimates for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science - Vote 45.

I have no apologies received. I remind members and officials to ensure their mobile phones are switched off for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment, even when on silent remotely. The meeting has been convened to consider the Revised Estimates for Vote 26, Education, and for Vote 45, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, which were referred to this committee by Dáil Éireann. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House if they choose to participate and speak at the meetings. I will not permit a member to participate if he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I welcome the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, the Minister of State at the Department of Education with responsibility for special education and inclusion, Deputy Madigan, and their officials. I thank them for the briefing documents which were provided to the meeting. I ask the Minister to make her opening statement. Members can ask general questions on Vote 26. Members will have a slot of four minutes each and I ask that the Minister reply within the four minutes of each slot.

As the Minister, Deputy Foley, has another important engagement after this meeting, I will see if we can have her out by 2.30 p.m.

I thank the committee for giving me the opportunity to speak to it today and for the committee's consideration of my Department's Revised Estimate for 2022. I am pleased to be accompanied today by the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, who has responsibility, as the Chairman outlined, for special education, and by officials from my Department.

I will begin with a brief overview of the Revised Estimates for my Department for 2022. These Estimates set out the approved allocations for the Department that include funding for all of the services normally provided or supported by it. An allocation is included to meet ongoing costs associated with the safe operation of our schools in a Covid-related environment. A significant capital allocation is also included.

The Revised Estimate for Vote 26 provides for a net allocation of €8.964 billion representing a gross allocation of €9.283 billion reduced by appropriations-in-aid of some €0.32 billion, which is an increase of some €322 million on the original 2021 gross expenditure allocations. This includes €138 million of financial supports for Covid-related measures. Other such funding will be made available from the Government’s central Covid contingency reserve as required during the year, based on the latest public health advice available. Excluding the Covid-related funding, this represents almost half a billion of an increase in 2022 for permanent expenditure measures.

As the committee members will recall, a significant proportion of the funding allocated to Vote 26 will be expended on gross pay and pensions with sums amounting to over €7 billion included in the Vote for these purposes. This represents some 80% of the expenditure allocation. Some 96,700 public servants and 44,500 public service pensioners are paid out of these funds. Other significant expenditure areas include capital infrastructure, school transport, capitation grants to schools and grants to other organisations and agencies.

In budget 2022, the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, and I secured a significant allocation for primary, post-primary and special needs education, including important measures such as securing funding for the recruitment of almost 3,200 new teachers and special needs assistants - the largest ever expansion of the Delivering Equality of Opportunity In Schools, DEIS, programme to tackle disadvantage and achieving the historically low 24:1 staffing schedule at primary level.

An additional allocation of €18 million was secured for the DEIS programme which will equate to a full year allocation of €32 million. This will enable an expansion in 2022 of the programme to further schools and result in an increase of over 20% in funding for the programme. Continuing to deliver on the commitment in the programme for Government, funding will be provided for an additional 350 teachers, which is inclusive of the DEIS staffing improvement, to reduce school staffing schedules by one point for all primary schools.

Continuing to deliver on the commitment in the programme for Government, funding will be provided for an additional 350 teachers, which is inclusive of the DEIS staffing improvement, to reduce school staffing schedules by one point for all primary schools. This Government is continuing to invest in special education. In 2022, over €2 billion in funding will be provided, representing more than a quarter of the Department’s entire current expenditure budget. Almost 1,200 additional special needs assistant, SNA, posts will be allocated, bringing the total number of SNAs in our schools to over 19,000 in 2022. This will support the roll-out of the new school inclusion model and will ensure that students with additional needs get the right supports at the right time, as well as supporting the new special class places. An additional 980 special education teacher posts will be provided. These will cover both mainstream classes in new and expanding schools and the opening of new special classes. These investment measures under budget 2022 will be hugely important in tackling disadvantage and supporting children and young people with special educational needs in our education system. The budget also included a number of other initiatives including once-off funding of €20 million to be provided for books, audio books and other reading materials to increase the literacy tools and supports available to children in our schools. Additional capitation funding was allocated to voluntary secondary schools in the free education scheme, to rectify historical inconsistencies in capitation funding at post-primary level. Additional guidance teacher supports and release days for school leaders will be maintained, while €30 million has been allocated to increase investment in the school transport scheme.

Significant funding has been provided to schools since 2020 to help them address the challenges posed by Covid-19. This funding sustained school reopenings by providing for the replacement of teachers and non-teaching staff unable to attend for work due to Covid-19, additional release days for principals and deputy principals at primary level, and enhanced cleaning regimes, PPE equipment and well-being supports. These Revised Estimates continue those supports into 2022 with some €138 million being allocated. As before, it is available to meet substitution and supervision costs, cleaning costs, sanitiser and PPE. I am acutely conscious of the impact that Covid-19 has had on our most vulnerable students. Late last year we announced details of the Covid learning and support scheme, CLASS, programme, which is providing additional supports and teaching to those most negatively impacted throughout the pandemic. This programme commenced last October and will continue into 2022.

I will conclude with reference to the Department’s ongoing capital investment programme. Under Project Ireland 2040, the education sector will receive a total of approximately €4.4 billion in capital investment over the period from 2021 to 2025. This significant investment allows us to move forward with certainty on our ambitious plans to deliver high-quality building projects, with a focus on sustainability for school communities across Ireland. Capital planning and budgeting is undertaken on a multi-annual basis. The allocation of €792 million for 2022 will facilitate a continued strong roll-out of school building projects and other measures including the €20 million capital grant for literacy resources to be paid to schools this year, along with funding of €65 million for the approval of 497 projects under the 2022 summer works scheme to improve and upgrade existing school buildings.

This is just a flavour of the issues that are reflected in these Estimates and I hope I have been of assistance to the committee. Both the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, and I are happy to address any queries members may have.

I thank the Minister. The first questioner is Deputy Ó Laoghaire.

I will ask these questions together and try to be as efficient as I can. I am not sure which subhead this would fall into, possibly A10, but possibly A4 as well. I will start with leaving certificate students. As the Minister knows, I disagree with the decision she took regarding the approach and many students were disappointed. My question is focused on budgetary matters. Students have regularly raised the anxiety, pressure, concerns and uncertainty that have been there. Will the Department consider a package for increased guidance counsellor support and in particular, a helpline for leaving certificate students, between now and the end of the school year? My second question relates to Covid-19 funding. While it is positive that as a society, Covid-19 perhaps poses less of a threat than it has in the past, we cannot pretend that it is not still a huge challenge to schools. Just today I was speaking to a teacher who advised that out of a staff of 40, there were 12 teachers out, as well as three SNAs, a principal and a vice-principal. Schools are still under savage pressure. We still need to tackle issues around filtration and long-term ventilation. It is remarkable in that context that there is no Covid-19 capital funding this year. Will the Minister ensure that the Covid-19 funding will continue into 2023? In particular, will she ensure that the helpline for school leaders is continued and indeed enhanced?

The Minister also announced things in the budget that I was very much in agreement with and supportive of, as well as some areas where I thought there was a shortfall. One that I welcomed was the investment in DEIS of €18 million, bringing the full year allocation to €32 million. This was something that I, and others, welcomed. I have raised with the Ministers that several schools throughout the State, including in my own constituency, the Togher schools and St. Maries of the Isle. Schools are now at the stage where workforce planning needs to happen. They need to know soon. What is the timescale for the roll-out of DEIS? How many schools are going to benefit? Will the Minister tell us that? She will also know that I am keen to inform the criteria to be constructive and if possible I would be grateful for an opportunity to meet with the officials.

My final question is under subheads A8 and A10. School secretaries have been fighting for fairness and equal pay for years. They are vital to keeping our schools going, particularly during Covid-19. In October 2020 the Tánaiste committed to the regularising of employment terms and conditions and pension rights of school secretaries. However, they have been kept in limbo. Progress is really slow. They feel let down. They feel the Department is not listening. It is very wrong that school secretaries are expected to sign on when school buildings are closed. It puts them in an insecure position during school holidays.

The Minister will say the matter is before the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, but will she tell me whether it is her policy that secretaries should sign on during the summer? That is what Department officials are arguing. That is their position at this moment in time. I do not agree with that and I hope the Minister does not either.

On the leaving certificate, while I appreciate the Deputy has a different view from me in terms of the leaving certificate, I want to be very clear that I met, listened to and engaged on a consistent basis with all of the partners in education, including teachers, students, parents and managerial bodies and we worked through each of the requests that were there. The Deputy will be aware that there were requests, for example, in regard to grade inflation and I have given a strong commitment in terms of the class of 2022 competing with the class of 2021. It will be kept at the same level in terms of additional accommodations or adjustments being made to papers, which was a very clear request and I have ensured that this is happening. Students have received that commitment very positively. As for the accredited grades aspect, I was very clear that we went through every possible permutation of it and we are not in a position to provide it this year similar to providing it last year, as one student in four does not have the necessary data. To be fair, there was enormous engagement from everybody around the table including from the students themselves. The students and their leadership have acknowledged the difficulties in regard to that.

In regard to guidance counsellors, I am very pleased to say that I am very appreciative of the value and the importance of the work carried out by the guidance counsellors. I am very pleased to say that in the budget, we made provision that there would be more than 100 additional guidance counsellor posts provided for. That is something I am hugely committed to going forward.

As for the Covid-19 measures in our schools to which the Deputy referred, more than €860 million in Covid-19 measures has been provided for our schools over the period of Covid-19 and in this year, €138 million for 2022 has been put in place. Again I will be very clear, similar to last year we had a provision in the budget and then, as always, there is the Covid-19 contingency fund. This year again that Covid-19 contingency fund is available to us. Subject to public health advice, which we have always followed in our schools, if there is an additional requirement for measures in our schools at any point, they will be put in place. I am very pleased to say that we continue all of the infection prevention and control measures in our schools at this point, despite the fact that in many other sectors of society they have moved on. We keep them in place and it is subject to review by 28 February 2022.

In regard to DEIS, I acknowledge the Deputy's ongoing interest in DEIS. There is great interest in the enhancement of the DEIS programme. Since becoming Minister, I have been extremely supportive of the DEIS programme. I know the value of it and the benefit it will be to schools when we are in a position to include as many as we possibly can in it. We have, as the Deputy is aware, a budget of €18 million this year, growing to €32 million next year. This is a substantial budget which will allow us to maximise the number of schools that for the first time will be included in the DEIS programme. We are currently finalising the model. It is my intention that everything will be in place and sufficient advance notice will be given to schools in order that it will be fully implemented by September 2022, the new school year.

I wish to be very clear on school secretaries and caretakers. That matter is before the WRC. The Deputy will appreciate that significant progress has been made via the WRC. Very many people at this meeting, me included, have personal experience of the value and the importance placed on the work of school secretaries and caretakers. The Deputy will be aware that we have now offered to move school secretaries onto a scale aligned with clerical officer grade III-----

They still have to sign on.

-----which is a significant move forward. There are other matters still to be worked out via the WRC. That work continues apace and positively. I am very pleased that everybody is engaging via the WRC and I will allow that to continue.

Perhaps the Minister could provide even a ballpark figure in writing after the meeting. I asked that question of the number of DEIS schools. Perhaps we could get a general idea of how many schools will benefit. Again, it is not acceptable that the Department's negotiating position is that secretaries should have to sign on. That is the position, that is a fact and that should not be the way. I ask the Minister to instruct her officials not to adopt that position but, rather, to ensure that secretaries get paid over the summer.

I wish to be very clear, as I have been from the outset, that I want this situation resolved. We have made significant progress. I will allow the process via the WRC to continue such that all the issues that are brought to the table will be satisfactorily addressed for the benefit of everybody around the table. I have shown commitment to that. Up to this point we have made significant progress, and I am very confident we can make even more progress.

I welcome the Minister and the Minister of State. My contribution will be on the same themes. We are anxious that an assessment be ongoing within the Department of the damage that has been done to the educational experience of children and young people. Covid is still having a massive effect and influence on children's and young people's day-to-day educational experience. I would not want the Department to assume that the catch-up fund that has been introduced will be enough. Clearly, young people are still having difficulty in their young school lives. They are wearing masks from third class up, as per the public health advice, and at second level. The windows are open and teachers are continually absent. Even though that might not be reported on as much as it was in January, it is still a day-to-day reality. I would like to get a sense from the Minister of the continuing work the Department is doing to assess that damage that is being done, understanding all the while that it is absolutely important that schools remain open and that public health advice is followed. In that regard, does the Minister have a sense as to when the mask mandate, particularly in primary schools, may be lifted?

I am interested in what the Minister had to say about school secretaries. That matter should absolutely have been resolved by now and the Department should have been much more to the fore in getting it resolved. I am conscious of the SNAs and their campaign to have the minimum necessary qualifications to become SNAs increased. I would like to hear the Minister's views on that.

I wish to ask about school books. The Minister will know that I keep raising this issue because progress on it is very much achievable. Far too many parents in our school communities have discussions about money. Voluntary contributions are still a real part of school life. Management bodies say that if voluntary contributions were to be banned, there would be a €45 million hole in the day-to-day running needs of schools. We could just fill that and not have the need for voluntary contributions. As a politician, I am now already in the post-Covid restrictions era, getting communications from local schools that are holding fundraisers. They want support from their local Deputy to take out an advertisement and so on. I find it pathetic that schools must continually hold fundraisers for their running costs. It is appalling. It is ridiculous. We have to recast our brains totally as to what the normal function of a school is. Parents' associations are fundraising bodies. Principals are chasing money all the time. It is all about fundraising, money, asking parents for book money, etc. Given all that, I ask about a long-term vision for schools to be self-funded from the Department rather than having to ask parents for money or to have fundraising-type dynamics in school communities. That is just exhausting. If parents do not have the money, they feel as if they cannot engage fully in the school community. If they cannot pay the bills, are they going to go to school fundraiser? Unlikely.

I am sorry; I appreciate that my time is almost up. My main point is about school books. Parents in Northern Ireland do not pay for their children's school books. In fairness, the Minister has rolled out a scheme that benefits approximately 101 schools. The number went from 52 originally to 101. Does she have a vision, or is there a vision in her Department, to roll that out to every primary school and secondary school over time? I believe it would cost €20 million at primary level and €20 million at secondary level. That could change the whole dynamic such that principals are not chasing after parents for book money, parents are not running around trying to get books and the conversation becomes less about money and more about education. If they can do it in the North of Ireland, I am pretty sure we could do it here too.

In general, and in response to the Deputy's earlier remarks about Covid supports in our schools, I wish to be very clear that there is provision for €138 million in such supports. As the Deputy will be aware, the Covid contingency moneys are also available. I reiterate that we continue the infection prevention and control measures in our schools. They are operating very well. I know they have been lifted in other jurisdictions but we are keeping them in place. If there is a requirement for us to draw further on the Covid contingency fund, we will certainly do so.

As for masks, a clear commitment has been given that by 28 February there will be a full review of all the public health measures in our schools, particularly in respect of masks. It is my understanding that NPHET will meet on 17 February and there will be further work in that regard, but 28 February is the date to which we have committed.

I wish to be very clear on the issues the Deputy raised around school books. I wish to be fair. I know the Deputy has a particular interest in this and has advocated very strongly on the matter. We have made available funding of €17.2 million to our schools for the book rental scheme. More than 98% of our primary schools are availing of that. As the Deputy correctly stated, 102 schools are availing of the free book pilot scheme. I am very committed to that. The context in which we are having this discussion is that everything is a budgetary consideration. I appreciate that. I understand the Deputy's bona fides in that the measures he outlines would help to tackle disadvantage and inequality. We are tackling that ambitiously and in a variety of stages, primarily through DEIS, which was a significant package to resource this year - €18 million rising to €32 million. As a result, here are a number of strands to how we are facing issues of disadvantage. Specifically, as I said, considerable funding is already available to the school books rental scheme. We have rolled out the pilot. I am interested in advancing that and I will give it my fullest attention.

I will address the issue of SNA accreditation. Suffice to say, first of all, that SNAs are critical to children with additional needs. We know that and we have increased the number of SNAs by 81% since 2011. By the end of this year, we will have more than 19,000. A review of the SNA scheme was carried out by the National Council for Special Education in 2018. It said we really needed training for SNAs, so we set up a UCD course with places for 3,500 students and SNAs to pursue the course over a period of three years. There is a ten-month module and they cover a lot of different subjects. It is important to stress, though, that the calibre of an SNA is not directly affected by the qualifications he or she has. In fact, many of them are already highly qualified, as it turns out, but we are open to reviewing the matter. I know there is a claim lodged with the WRC. The Department is engaging with that and will probably do so further through the national pay agreement.

I have some questions. Following on from Deputy Ó Ríordáin's question about masks, did mask-wearing have the result the Department of Education had hoped for?

How many teachers are out with Covid each day? Is it as big an issue as it was in January? I know it has tapered off considerably, but schools still have issues trying to get substitutes.

I very much welcome the additional funding for school libraries. The program for Government commits to increasing the number of school libraries. Where are we with the roll-out and extension of school libraries? We are all aware of the importance of children reading books.

The Chairman's first question was on the impact of the masks. It has been a source of reassurance to everyone in the education sector that we have very closely followed the public health advice. That was not just in respect of one single measure but in respect of a host of infection prevention control measures as recommended. That includes mask wearing, enhanced cleaning, PPP, hand sanitiser and even down to the use of pods and bubbles in primary schools, social distancing, staggered breaks enhanced supervision and all the innovative ways that schools have adopted to living with Covid. Public health advice is that we should continue with mask wearing. We will be following through on the commitment that by 28 February all of that will be reviewed. It is a combination of all the measures that we have had in schools that have-----

Will that include pods and everything else? Will everything be taken into account in the review? I know that my own kids hope to be able to get back to mixing with the entire class rather than with the five or six in their pod. Children do not understand. They think if society is coming back to normal, then the classroom should come back to normal as well.

I understand that. I appreciate how difficult it has been for everyone in the education sector. The delivery of education has been entirely reimagined. All those mitigation measures have allowed us to return to in-person teaching and learning. We learned from the experience of the pandemic that children benefit most from being there and receiving their education in person. It has been difficult for them, but they have adapted resiliently and superbly. Like everybody in wider society, they are looking forward a time where we do not have to enforce these measures. Everything will be reviewed by 28 February and we will follow what the public health advice is at that time.

Regarding substitution, we have been very fortunate that there has been such goodwill from the HEIs and our student teachers have been a remarkable resource to us. Retired teachers have returned to the classroom. Restrictions were lifted for teachers who were on job share or career breaks and people have been permitted to move between different schools. All those measures have helped considerably to meet the challenge of staffing within our schools.

Regarding libraries, we are very supportive of all measures to enhance literacy in our schools. I was very pleased that in this year's budget we secured €20 million to ensure we meet schools' needs for reading books, audiobooks and Braille books to promote the love of reading, the joy of language and the joy of words, and to inculcate that into our students. We are rolling that out into our schools. The Chairman is correct that there is a strong commitment in the program for Government to literacy and the promotion of reading. I think this will be a very positive step forward in that regard.

I echo what Deputy Ó Laoghaire said. The job specification of school secretaries has changed dramatically over the years. They are now almost as important as the school principal because they run the school side-by-side with the principal. They now have enormous responsibilities compared with what they had in the past. I encourage the Minister and her Department to do whatever they can to sort out their problem because they are a very important cog in the operation of schools. I believe the Minister recognises that. I know there is much work going on in the background with the WRC. It is good that everybody is at the table. I encourage the Department to expedite the matter.

We have had an enormous increase in our population, not only in cities but throughout the country. School places, particularly secondary school places, are becoming a problem. Students often need to travel 20 km or 30 km to get to a secondary school which is unacceptable. In Wexford town, the schools are bursting at the seams and it is a big issue. What work is the Department doing to look at predictions for population increases? There will be an enormous financial demand for school buildings in coming years and the Minister will be looking for an increase in budget. Other Departments will also be looking for increases in their budgets and there will be serious competition between Departments. Education for children is paramount. What work is going on to prepare for the increasing population?

I appreciate the unanimity among committee members regarding school secretaries. I have worked with school secretaries and caretakers. I know the enormous value that is added to a school by the work of the support staff. The issue with school secretaries has been ongoing for years. I am pleased to say that in the last year and a half we have made significant progress through the WRC. We have offered to move school secretaries to a scale aligned with clerical officer grade 3. There are other outstanding issues as mentioned earlier. However, I assure the Chairman of the commitment of the Department to resolve any of the outstanding issues and we will do that through the WRC.

The Chairman made a very relevant point on planning for future building. We have a very significant capital budget a €4.4 billion in place for 2021 to 2025. For this year alone, the building programme budget comes to €792 million. GIS is allowing us to do geographical studies looking at the population projections and future needs of an area. We engage with local authorities on the ground on future building projects and the demographics that may well arise in particular areas. There is also engagement on the ground with the patron bodies, which is very important. I am very conscious of the need for forward planning and I am also very conscious of the need to have a budget that will back up the demands that will be placed on the Department for that. A budget of €4.4 billion between now and 2025 is a significant budget to meet the challenges that lie ahead.

In previous Estimates meetings, I have mentioned walking deputy principals in primary schools. St. Aidan's Primary School in Enniscorthy has over 900 pupils. It has a principal and a teaching vice principal which is not acceptable in this day and age. Secondary schools with 300 or 400 pupils will have a principal and one or two walking principals.

There should be parity and all schools should be treated the same because there is as much work in primary schools as in secondary schools.

On primary schools, I seek the Minister's commitment on an issue about which the Minister's Department Is very much aware. I have never spoken about this at any meeting. It is the issue with Cushinstown National School in County Wexford. The patron, the Bishop of Ferns, has put in a school manager there. I am aware that the Minister's Department is doing absolutely fantastic work there with the school manager. I ask the Minister to give a commitment to make sure that her Department would give every help and assistance to the diocesan office and to the new school manager, Mr. John Roche, with the issues in the school. I have been dealing with this issue with the parents. It is a huge concern for parents and a huge issue for pupils. No primary school should have to go through this. It is having an effect on the mental well-being of many parents and pupils. We are dealing with very young children, where there are issues within the staff. I do not want the Minister to comment on it but I ask that she give a commitment that every resource in her Department will be put to assist the school manager there. Perhaps the Minister could give me a commitment that she will keep an eye on that for me.

I thank the Chairman. I want to be clear that the patron of the school does have a role there.

Absolutely. I agree with that.

It is not appropriate for me to cross over into that role. I am very conscious of the points raised by the Chairman. I will be fair and say it has been raised with me. The Chairman has a particular interest in this and it has been raised with me by other public representatives. It will be best all around that the maximum solution for the students and the school fraternity, the staff and the wider community which is very invested in this, would be realised as a priority.

I thank the Minister.

My next question is for the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan. The effect of the past two years has been huge in respect of students with special educational needs. Has the Minister of State's section in the Department been doing a review on the effects on special needs children and what lessons can be learned from that? At the start of the pandemic in 2020, the special education schools were closed and very few resources were available education-wise or for tuition for children with special educational needs. Will a full review be carried out specifically concentrating on special education? We have all learned lessons whereby we do not want to see children who require special education being left the way they were during this pandemic. If it does hit again in future years, and hopefully it will not, will the Department have had a review done and lessons learned in order that where mistakes were made, they will not be made again?

I thank the Chairman. I completely concur. Obviously, the pandemic was extremely difficult for all children but particularly for those with additional needs.

On contingency planning, as far as I am aware, the Department is part of the Government task force and there will be work done in that context. The Chairman is quite right that the impact of school closures on children with additional needs was really disastrous. They were not in a position to learn adequately remotely and they needed it to be in person. I will outline some of the schemes that we put in place. We put together the supplementary scheme back at Easter, at a cost of about €10 million. We expanded the summer provision to double the funding to €40 million, and we also had a huge increase this year for eligibility. The Ministry, Deputy Foley, also mentioned the Covid learning and support scheme, CLASS, programme valued at €52.6 million. This will help a lot of these children to catch up. Obviously, there was going to be a clear risk of regression for these children. I have also announced the review of the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act, the EPSEN Act, which is the statutory legislation underpinning all special education. That legislation is now 17 years old and some parts of that Act have not commenced at all. We are setting up a steering group and an advisory group and we hope to go to a public consultation very shortly on that to get views in relation to tit so we can, as the Chairman has said, take those learnings from what has occurred over the past two years. If we have another situation in the future, and please God we will not, then we can make sure that these children with additional needs are catered for.

We must bear in mind also that the Government did put the needs of children who had additional needs first and foremost in terms of going back to school, above and beyond anybody else. The children who have some sort of additional needs only take up about 20% of the entire schoolgoing cohort anyway, so we should not be unable to do that for them in the future.

I have one further question for the Minister, Deputy Foley, before I go to Deputy Farrell. I will come back in also with Deputy Ó Laoghaire. Does the Minister have an update on the publication of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, report on the review of the senior cycle syllabus? As the Minister is aware, we are doing our own work on this, and before our committee finalises its own report on the review of the leaving certificate, we would like to be able to bring the NCCA into the committee. We cannot bring them in, however, until the Minister publishes the report. Will the Minister please give the committee an update on where we are on that?

An enormous body of work has been undertaken by the NCCA. This report has really been five years in the making. It is a substantial body of work and I am currently reviewing that. I am entirely committed to senior cycle reform and to the senior cycle review. I believe that we are all very clear that we need an education system that meets the needs of every child and every young person and which provides them with their own unique pathway forward. When we speak of senior cycle review, we are referring to transition year, the senior leaving certificate applied programme, the leaving certificate vocational programme and the leaving certificate established, as it is called. It is quite significant. I am giving it absolute priority. It demands a significant response from me and I will be in a position to do that in the not-too-distant future, and as quickly as I possibly can. I am committed to that.

Is the Minister talking about weeks or months?

In the shortest timeframe possible. I do not want to be evasive but it is a significant body of work. It has taken the NCCA five years to put that body of work together and I need to give it that level of consideration. I assure the Chairman that it will be in the not-too-distant future.

In fairness to all of the members and the staff here, we have done a huge amount of work on the leaving certificate review. An important cog in this work is to have the representatives of the NCCA in to discuss the report.

I acknowledge the superb work that goes on here on a daily basis in addressing the different aspects of education and especially, in this instance, the senior cycle. It is always very helpful to me to see the committee's deliberations and the very measured, concerned and proactive approach the committee takes to a variety of issues pertaining to education. I acknowledge my appreciation of that. I assure the committee that it will be in the shortest timeframe possible.

We want to be constructive.

I appreciate that.

I welcome the Minister and the Minister of State, and I thank them for coming before us this morning. I apologise for being late as I was at another committee meeting.

To follow up on the work of the committee in relation to leaving certificate reform, some members disagreed and other members agreed on recent decisions but all of that being said I believe that we uniformly agree that leaving certificate reform is entirely necessary in whatever shape or form that takes. We need to start that conversation soon. I am very pleased to hear from the Minister, Deputy Foley, that the process shall begin shortly and as soon as possible. This is to be welcomed.

I wish to follow up on a few themes that the Chairman has already started. I echo the compliments that have been paid to the Minister, Deputy Foley, for the comprehensive work the Department and she have done in relation to a school in Swords. Last week during Dáil questions, the Chairman touched upon it also, which is the fulfilment of and renewal of the capital plan, and the impacts this will have on communities, especially growing communities. There are acute pressures, as I am sure the Minister will understand, in my constituency which is one of the fastest growing in the country. On that basis, I recall that in 2008 a total of 80 children showed up to school with their bags, books and uniforms, but there were no school places. Thankfully, the Department was able to resolve that issue fairly quickly, but it took six weeks for temporary accommodation to be delivered.

I do not believe that any of us wants to go back to that scenario.

The expanded brief of the Department in terms of liaising with other bodies such as local authorities and the Department of Social Protection, among others, is essential if we are to keep on top of the demands. There are acute pressures throughout the country but I can speak only for my constituency, particularly Malahide, Portmarnock, Swords and Balbriggan. In other communities, steps are being taken to ensure there is capacity available. The renewed capital plan, which sets out the ambition of the Minister for Education and her Department, is very important, as is the opportunity for the committee to go through it. Will the Minister provide further information on the advancement of the next capital programme?

The other issues I wish to raise relate to the brief of the Minister of State, Deputy Josepha Madigan, in particular the review of the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act, which I welcome. The committee has discussed the review a number of times. It is incredibly important that we complete that work. As far as I am concerned, the biggest issue we have all had in this area over the years has been that parts of the EPSEN Act were never commenced. Is the Minister proposing to engage with the NGOs and various groups that are key to the delivery of services for children with different additional educational needs?

On the recruitment of further special needs assistants, we have an ongoing commitment to increase the number of SNAs year on year. All Members of the House welcome that position because it is entirely necessary. Will that commitment continue? Will there be a review within the Department of the SNA allocation model given that it is two years old now to ensure it is operating as desired and designed? Perhaps the Minister will comment on that.

I thank Deputy Farrell for his interest in special education, on which he speaks to me regularly. I am not sure if the Deputy was in attendance when I mentioned the EPSEN Act earlier. I have launched a review of the Act, which is not before time as it is 17 years since the Act was first published in 2004. Parts of the Act were never commenced and there were good reasons for that at the time. One was related to funding. I believe commencement of each section of the Act was costed at €225 million or thereabouts. However, the Act did put the National Council for Special Education on a statutory footing, which was a good thing, and provided for the membership of the NCSE. We now have increased investment to €2 billion, which was not available at that time.

We have also changed our approach, moving from a diagnosis-led approach to a more needs-based approach. That must be taken into account. The current process involves setting up the steering group, which will include representatives of the Department, advocacy groups and the National Council for Special Education. I also have an advisory group, which is more of a fit for advocacy groups and NGOs. We want to hear from everybody through the consultation we will have after that. We expect the consultation to take around three months. I do not want it to be open-ended because it might never be completed otherwise. The bottom line for me and, I am sure, the Minister, Deputy Foley, is to ensure we implement the Act in full and that it is reflective of the views of children with additional needs and what they fight for and face, bearing in mind that it should be streamlined with the approach of the Department.

We have an additional 1,165 SNAs available from January of this year. That SNA reallocation will take place. The Deputy is correct that it has been two years and it was stopped as a result of Covid. We are hoping to focus on schools for which the SNA allocation was frozen during that period and which may have been disadvantaged. We are aware of that and the National Council for Special Education is working very closely with schools on exceptional reviews and all of those matters through the SENOs. As I said earlier, we will have more than 19,000 SNAs by the end of this year. It is imperative that schools have an adequate facility. We will be reviewing this over the next few weeks.

For the information of the Minister of State, I regular consult the school principals of all the schools in my constituency. I conducted a survey with primary and secondary school principals for the purpose of looking into supports for children with additional educational needs. I have not quite finalised the survey but I intend to give it the Minister of State for information purposes. In conjunction with everything that was happening with Covid and the difficulties around access to education, the survey may suggest or recommend some tweaks. This is why I suggest that maybe it is timely to have a top-down look at that model given the interruption to its introduction and ongoing recruitment.

We will certainly bear that in mind.

On the review and reform of senior cycle, I am absolutely committed to delivering on that. A focus is being placed on the leaving certificate, which is hugely important, but, as I said, our breadth of vision is wider than that. We are looking at all aspects of senior cycle. We are looking at transition year, leaving certificate applied, the leaving certificate vocational programme LCVP, and the leaving certificate established. I make it abundantly clear that the Department of Education is committed to delivering the reform that is necessary and ensuring we have a system that best meets the needs of children and young people in our care.

I appreciate Deputy Farrell's positive remarks on recent developments in Swords. As I said, we have a significant breadth of vision and a significant budget to support our building programme. Investment of €4.4 billion has been provided for 2021 to 2025 as part of a five-year rolling plan. For this year alone, there is an envelope of €792 million. This will ensure that 250 school accommodation projects that are currently on site will be completed this year. Over the course of the five-year plan, an average of between 150 and 200 buildings will be provided each year. We are very conscious of the need for planning ahead.

Deputy Farrell was correct to refer to having the widest possible consultation on the ground. It is important that the local authorities and patrons are part of our discussions so that we are ahead when it comes to planning for the whole issue of school building provision for our students and staff.

If I put on my old hat, my next question relates to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. The committee on children in the previous Dáil did significant work on childhood obesity. One of the recommendations that flowed from the report we produced was on the importance of healthy eating and, specifically, the subject of home economics and its importance in the senior cycle. We recommended more involvement outside of the sphere of home economics, taking in other subjects or classes in the curriculum to promote healthy eating. Is the Minister aware of that? Is there a programme in the Department looking at that in the context of the Minister's proposed leaving certificate reform and secondary school examinations across junior and senior cycle? Is healthy eating being looked at in the context of the curriculum?

In fairness, I acknowledge that excellent work is ongoing in our schools regarding healthy eating and well-being. There is significant engagement by schools in this area. Our students are heavily involved, not just at secondary level but also at primary level where there are healthy eating promotions. This all falls under the well-being aspect too. We are conscious of that. The promotion of health, well-being and fitness in our schools has progressed positively. Even during the Covid-19 pandemic, we have put in place significant well-being toolkits and increased the provision of guidance, pastoral care plans and teams. All that activity looks beyond the traditional classroom and subjects that have been taught towards a wider and more holistic experience.

I acknowledge that element of the breadth of vision has always been in our schools. The staff in our schools have always been forward-thinking and holistically-minded when it comes to our students. That may not always have been named or tagged with the language we use now. The Department is entirely committed to resourcing well-being initiatives and to supporting schools. From primary level and right into secondary level, schools have been rolling out these types of initiatives for healthy eating plans.

I thank the Minister.

I have a few brief questions for the Minister and Minister of State. One for the Minister relates, perhaps tangentially, to the subject of health and obesity. Most secondary schools will now have a hall, but a fair proportion still do not. As matters stand with capital funding, unless there is a new build or refurbishment that is effectively tantamount to a new build, schools are not getting approval for halls. We must address this in the capital programmes. In accordance with the Healthy Ireland targets and the desire to offer physical education, PE, to every school as a leaving certificate subject, schools need halls. I can think of examples of school in my area, and elsewhere, that do not have school halls and have no prospect of getting them.

Turning to the Minister of State, one of the elements of the budget which I welcomed was the numbers in respect of SNAs. The last two budgets have shown that having targets in place does not necessarily mean they are realised. We do not seem to be able to recruit the same number of staff as the funds have been allocated for. It is not just a budgetary issue. Part of it comes back to the recognition of qualifications aspect. I disagree with the response that this issue will be part of the public sector pay talks. A review should be undertaken before that happens. It is putting the cart before the horse otherwise. We cannot decide what people should be paid unless we have a sense of exactly what their responsibilities are going to be. My request to the Minister of State, and I do not think this is unreasonable, is that she establish an expert group to look at the qualifications and criteria for SNAs. The order in which this should proceed is to undertake an expert review before moving to pay negotiations. We must first know what we are asking SNAs to do and what qualifications they should be expected to have to qualify.

That training for the SNAs is taking place now. We want to see the outcome of that training to allow us to evaluate it properly and get feedback from the SNAs. We can then bring that back to the Department and take the matter from there.

On facilities, the Deputy is correct. We are conscious of making provision for these facilities in our new builds where there is an opportunity to do so. Funding is in place for the future but it is part of a later tranche of development funding available to us. I will do all I can to bring that about earlier.

There is an overall vision of where our building funding will go. As I said, I appreciate the importance and significance of having facilities such as the hallaí available to schools. I am examining this to see what room I have to manoeuvre and what opportunities there may be to bring forward that longer term funding being provided for the school building projects

I thank the Minister.

Does the Deputy have any other questions?

No. I will leave it at that for now.

In years gone by, home economics was a subject mainly for females. Society has changed and males must now take a more proactive role in the home. Are there plans to make home economics a mandatory subject for male and female students in secondary schools? Has the Minister or her Department given this any thought? This will be important from the perspective of obesity because home economics has such broad content and is a subject that can expand. I believe the Department should give some thought to this.

The hot school meals scheme is under the auspices of the Department of Social Protection, which is an odd fit. The scheme should be run by the Department of Education. Has there been any consultation between the Department and the Department of Social Protection on bringing the hot school meals programme under the banner of the Department of Education?

I thank the Chair for the question. On home economics as a subject, we have worked hard to put in place the widest offering to students in respect of subjects which might meet their interests and talents. I like the fact that they would have the widest possible choice and it is important that we preserve that in future. We will be imaginative in respect of the types of subjects we will make available to students. The kernel of the issue raised by the Chair is similar to what has previously been raised in the context of healthy eating campaigns. There are opportunities for us to undertake such initiatives in our schools as well and to continue to support the excellent ongoing work in that regard. I appreciate the point the Chair is making regarding equality of access. There is currently equality of access but the choice must be made by the students themselves.

On the hot school meals programme, I know the Chair is invested in this issue and has raised it with me before. I acknowledge the work done by the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys. She has always been proactive and generous in her engagement with my Department. As the Chair correctly said, this scheme is now under her Department. She has an open style of engagement with the Department in fulfilling the hot school meals programme. The scheme is of enormous benefit to our schools and we would like to see it grow, advance and develop even further. We will continue our discussions with the Minister for Social Protection and her Department in that regard.

I believe it should be administered within the Department of Education. I am not sure if the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, would agree with me, but sin scéal eile. It is a very strange fit for a programme which deals with primary and post-primary schools to be based in the Department of Social Protection. I may have been in government when it was put in there, but I am not sure.

Could I ask a question on that point?

The Government and the Houses need to have a broader discussion on the breadth of provision of the hot school meals programme. I agree completely with the Chair that having it run by the Department of Social Protection is an odd fit.

I have a follow-up question regarding the capital programme and new school builds and rebuilds. Does the Department of Education actively engage, directly or via patrons, in operating any form of building control inspections during the building or redevelopment of schools, or is that matter delegated to local authorities? Is there a form of project management whereby officials from the Department are on site at school building projects?

When projects are delivered they are devolved to the relevant parties. In recent years, there have been opportunities for us to explore a variety of different mechanisms for delivery. That has served us especially well as we have had to significantly ramp up this programme.

We will be doing that going forward as well.

There is, of course, as the Deputy would be aware, a clerk of works on the ground, who is overseeing all of operations and ensuring that everything is at the standard that it should be. As I said, we are fortunate that we have been in a position to find not just one mechanism, but a variety of strands, in terms of delivery. As the Deputy rightly pointed out earlier, the issue of provision of places, facilities and variety of facilities that everyone here referenced is a priority. It is optimum to do it in as speedy and as timely a manner as possible. It is, obviously, overseen by the clerk of works.

I would like to thank the Minister, Deputy Foley, and Minister of State, Deputy Madigan and their officials for their constructive engagement with the committee today. We will now suspend briefly to prepare for part two of the meeting and allow the Minister of State, Deputy Collins and his officials to take their seats.

Sitting suspended at 2.41 p.m. and resumed at 2.44 p.m.

I would like to welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Collins and his officials from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to the meeting. I would also like to thank him for the briefing documents he provided to this meeting and for his flexibility in waiting and coming in after the Minister for Education.

I will ask the Minister of State, Deputy Collins for his opening statement. Members will then have four-minute slots to ask general questions.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to contribute to its consideration of this Department’s Revised Estimates. I am conscious that I have only five minutes to deliver my opening statement. I will, therefore, give a very brief overview of the Revised Estimates for my Department for 2022.

The Revised Estimate for Vote 45 that is before the committee now provides for a net allocation of €2.9 billion, representing a gross allocation of €3 billion reduced by appropriations-in-aid of €76 million. When taken with the National Training Fund expenditure of €765 million, the gross allocation for our Department in 2022 increases to €3.7 billion.

The Vote 45 allocation comprises the following key elements: a core allocation of more than €2.9 billion to meet the various requirements of the Department in the areas of further and higher education, research innovation and science; temporary Covid funding of €20 million at budget 2021 to fund increased demand for Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, grants in the face of the ongoing pandemic; temporary funding of €19 million to support education and training reform for new and future technological universities under Ireland’s national recovery and resilience plan; and temporary funding of €3.5 million through the Brexit Adjustment Reserve to address the impact of Brexit on the Erasmus scheme. The Department’s capital ceiling has also increased and funding was provided to meet the costs associated with the public sector Building Momentum pay deal.

Some 47% of the Department’s gross Vote is allocated to pay and pensions, reflecting the crucial work public servants are carrying out in the further and higher education system and in the research, innovation and science sector. This Department provides the funding for more than 26,000 public servants and 11,000 public service pensioners.

Excluding temporary adjustments and funding, the core increase year-on-year for my Department’s Vote is 8%, or €204 million. This increased from additional funding received during budget 2022, allowing this Department to progress major priorities.

First, we are making a significant investment in the higher education sector, including funding for increased undergraduate places to support leaving certificate students and meet Ireland’s demographic needs. In 2022, funding for the higher education sector increases to €2.1 billion, the highest it has ever been, and higher even than peak funding levels in 2008. This is only a start and my Department will be publishing the consultant report under the European Commission’s Directorate-General for Structural Reform Support, DG REFORM, programme on sustainable future funding of the tertiary system later this year.

Second, recognising that the levels of support for students are out of step with the costs of going to college, this Department increased student supports in order to address increased cost of living. The SUSI review will make key recommendations on how to improve the SUSI grant scheme and this report will be brought to Government alongside the future funding report shortly.

Finally, the impact of the pandemic has fundamentally changed the way we all live and work. Industries are crying out for staff, including digital infrastructure, cybersecurity, construction, transport, logistics, climate sustainability and many more. In 2022, we have significantly invested in upskilling, reskilling and apprenticeship in order to help address the significant workplace change associated with digitalisation, automation and climate change, whose impacts are expected to increase in the coming years.

I trust and hope that this overview is of assistance to the committee. I am happy to discuss this in more detail and I commend the Revised Estimate to the committee.

I wish to begin with line B(4), which deals with the core funding of the institutes. What is the per student figure? Has there been an increase on a per student basis?

Does the Deputy have a number of questions she wishes to put to the Minister of State together or would she like to go back and forth?

I appreciate the Minister of State might not be able to answer.

I will come back to the Deputy on that one.

I would appreciate if the Minister of State could provide me with a written answer.

Yes, I will check the details and revert.

Looking at appendix B that outlines the key high-level metrics, what was the total number of registered apprentices in the system at the end of 2021? It was 23,459 at the end of November. I wish to find out what the end-of-year figure is for that.

Why is the target 23,534 for 2022 if this is already the level it is at? Are we not aiming for an increase in the number of apprenticeships until 2023? Will the Minister of State clarify this?

We will get the exact number for the Deputy. She will be aware that in the apprenticeship action plan we are setting a target to build 10,000 new registrations per annum until 2025. This is a target in the plan. We can supply these details afterwards to have them circulated to the committee. By way of information I will give an overview of where we are at. The total number of persons enrolled in apprenticeships in 2014 was 6,913. In 2017 the figure increased to 12,851. At the end of 2020 the figure was 19,630. It is positive there has been an increase. It is growing. We have discussed this on many occasions and as late as this week in the Dáil. There is a lot happening. Capacity is being expanded. The response in terms of viewing apprenticeships as a career pathway and an option is becoming obvious to people and is being taken up, which is positive.

We can see from the figures there were 6,913 in 2014. We are so far behind. This is why we need to monitor this as well as the number of dropouts. We need to keep advancing. We also need clarity that we are measuring it properly across the board. The Minister of State will agree we are still way behind other countries in how apprenticeships are handled.

With regard to the backlog in phases 4 and 6, in November the Minister, Deputy Harris, said it would be cleared in the early months of 2022. Instead of this we have seen the number of registered apprentices trying to access classroom training jump back up by 2,500 in the past two months. This would suggest there has not been progress since November when all of the capacity restrictions were lifted. I am trying to get a take on whether we are really making advances on clearing the backlog.

I will repeat myself, and it is not for any reason other than it is a fact. An amount of €37 million was provided between last year and this year to clear the backlog. SOLAS and the education and training boards are hiring more trainers and building more capacity. It is a fact we have also increased the number of registrations coming into the system. I do not have available to me now the figures I had in the Dáil earlier in the week to quote to the Deputy. Suffice it to say it is the priority of all to address the backlog. We will get the committee an up-to-date figure as of the end of January on where exactly we are.

I ask the Minister of State to please do so. I need to know how many apprentices are not included in the waiting list figure because they have been given a date. They are waiting but they have been given a date. Perhaps the Minister of State will clarify this.

The Deputy knows this but it is worth restating. The national apprenticeship office is kicking into gear. The director has been appointed. This will be a key focus of the office in terms of addressing the backlog and the point with regard to dropouts the Deputy has quite rightly raised. It was raised by another Deputy in the Dáil on Tuesday evening. This is something that will be on the work programme of the director of the national apprenticeship office.

The Minister of State will give us the dropout figure when he has it. That would be good. On phase 2, the Minister, Deputy Harris, said the backlog would be cleared. Obviously this is where the majority are on the waiting list. He said it would be cleared by the end of 2022. Is this the case?

That is what he said and that is the intention.

How much of the overall increase in the total number of apprenticeships is the result of increased registrations? How much is as a result of apprentices being trapped in the system? I take what the Minister of State is saying on the national apprenticeship office. Many of these issues will be deciphered so we can see clearly. It is important for the Minister of State also, with regard to investments being made to clear the backlogs, that we are able to measure it in a very clear and transparent way so everybody knows we are making progress. We all want to make progress on this. Sometimes I get concerned about the way things are presented with regard to phases. It is difficult to dig beneath it to find out what is going on and whether we are getting value for money and going quickly enough to stay ahead and make progress.

To be helpful and to try to give the level of detail the Deputy is asking for, we can endeavour to give the information the Deputy is seeking with a month-by-month analysis.

That would be useful. How much did the State save as a result of the backlog in the apprenticeship system in 2020 and 2021?

I cannot give the Deputy that number now. I will provide it to her.

It may be around €55 million but I stand to be corrected. How much of this has been allocated specifically to clearing the backlog? What is the difference between them in terms of the savings made? How much is allocated to it?

In his statement the Minister of State referred to an increased number of undergraduate places to support leaving certificate students. Do we know how many undergraduate places are being created at this stage? The Minister of State rightly referred to identifying industries crying out for staff, with regard to digital infrastructure, cybersecurity, construction, transport, logistics and climate sustainability. Are we matching up where we see urgent skills shortages to creating the places?

I will give an overview. The number of students in full-time higher education, which includes universities, technological universities, institutes of technology and other higher education colleges, in 2020 was 165,946. In 2014, it was 151,360. We can see the increase. The split between undergraduate and postgraduate, favouring undergraduate, is 85% to 15%. We have had a demographic increase and an increase in the numbers attending college.

Last year the Department engaged with the universities and higher education institutes on providing increased places on high-demand courses. The discussion will happen again this year. I cannot give an update on where we are at with regard to this year. Last year we ensured additional places were made available. There are approximately 200 additional places on nursing and midwifery courses.

Are the nursing course places private or public?

We will give the committee a proper and exact analysis across the high-demand courses, including in respect of the point the Deputy raised. Medicine, veterinary, teaching and ICT were the high-demand areas. Again, the pressure in question will be faced this year.

Could I also have a forecast?

My final point is on the increases the Minister of State rightly outlined. My question on the per-student figure is important because of the chronic underfunding of the system. It is one thing to add the places but it entirely different to consider how much is invested per student to create the places. I am very conscious of the pressure put on the institutes to deliver more and more. I am concerned about the quality and integrity of the education that can be delivered with such restricted budgets. Again, it is important that we address this.

We will get that information.

An important point to be made to the committee on the CAO, places and offerings is that the metric achieved last year was in line with that of previous years in that 50% of CAO applicants received their first preference and 80% of applicants received their first, second or third choice. That is a benchmark metric from before Covid. Management and delivery in this regard were possible during Covid.

I wish to refer to four areas, which I believe overlap. I will start with a matter that has been subject to much debate of late and that has been addressed in the Dáil and Seanad by several Ministers. Consent classes and arrangements at third level are extremely important. They must be rolled out uniformly across all third level campuses. What supports are being provided by the Department to achieve this? Interrelated, bearing in mind non-academic activity on campuses, how much has the Department invested in mental health supports on our campuses? These are critical services that third level institutions should provide, with the support of the Department. Could the Minister of State comment on those two points? When he answers, I can come back to the two other matters I wish to raise.

I thank the Deputy. Both issues are important. The Department takes them very seriously. The Minister, Deputy Harris, has really led in these areas. In 2021, €5 million was allocated to our higher education institutions to support student mental health and well-being. That builds on the €5 million provided in the previous year to enhance the capacity of the support structures available. We were particularly mindful of the fact that we wanted to help people in a more one-to-one setting, so in this regard the money went towards hiring additional capacity and providing people with more contact time and support hours.

On consent, sexual violence and harassment, the framework for consent in higher education institutions was launched in 2019. Its aim is to ensure the creation of a campus culture that is safe, respectful and supportive. To assist institutions in implementing the framework, funding of over €400,000 was allocated by our Department to a number of initiatives since the launch. In addition, the Higher Education Authority has allocated funding of over €500,000 to consent workshops for the development of what is called Speak Out, an anonymous reporting and support tool. Significant resources and funding have been made available.

I appreciate that very much. I recognise what the Minister of State said. On the final point he made, I wonder whether the funding is sufficient to deal with the issue, which is now so prevalent in society. In the past few years, individual incidents have been talked about. Usually, we remember them for a few days and then move on as a society, but I feel that we are not moving on at the moment. That is only a good thing, as far as I am concerned. If we are not moving on, there is an onus on the Department to examine the funding stream and determine what else can be done to support safety on campus and the ambition set out in the programme, which, of course, I welcome. I do not really need a response on this matter but request that the Department consider it seriously in the context of future budgets.

We are open to considering these matters. The initiatives are demand led in that demand can go up and down. We will not be found wanting in providing the required supports. Along with having provided supports through the student assistance fund, we have significantly ramped up student assistance funding. There is over €18 million for this year alone across all the higher education institutions, which is significant.

I will give the Deputy an example. Yesterday evening, I was in the University of Limerick. Its student services office has in its student assistance fund more than €1 million, which is significant.

When I think back to my days at Waterford Institute of Technology, I shudder to think that there was probably less than €100 in some of the funds. It is a long time ago. I recognise the steps the Department has taken to support students, particularly over Covid, during which technological supports have been offered. That is to be welcomed.

My two other questions relate to parliamentary questions I submitted this week. They are specific to critical skills. The Minister, Deputy Harris, answered the questions. I was not aware that the Minister would not be present today so I apologise if I am putting the Minister of State on the spot. The critical skills in education right now, beyond those of teachers and special needs assistants, entail offering additional supports to children with additional needs, including occupational therapy, speech and language therapy and clinical psychological services. The response I received from the Department this week was that there are 244 places available per annum for those three areas on an ongoing basis. There is a chronic shortage, particularly at clinical psychology and occupational therapy levels. To my mind, these involve critical skills.

I was talking to the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, before and during the meeting this afternoon on the supports the State provides to children with additional needs.

If ever there was a critical skills shortage, it is in the number of places that are available across the State for those areas. I cannot think of a school that has not been in touch with me in my 18 years of public life that does not have one of those critical skills deficiencies, either at a school or community level. To put it mildly, the waiting lists are very difficult. When put in the context of a child with additional needs, it is almost impossible outside of the school sphere for parents to get access to supports they desperately need in a timely way. I understand that the CAO is a separate entity and that the HEA sets up these courses. I recognise that some of the courses are at doctoral level, as the Minister of State indicated in response to my questions on Tuesday. I totally understand that, but the Department has a role to play in ensuring we can meet the critical skills deficiency in that area.

The other part of the question relates to a topical issue in the further and higher education area, which is retrofitting and the skills required in that regard. The Government has put in place an €8 billion nine-year programme, which I am sure will be added to over the years and will most likely continue past 2030. The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications has stated the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science plays a key role in ensuring that places are provided. It was indicated to me that courses range from a few hours to a few weeks, while others are for a few months. They will provide people with the skills to allow us to deliver on our climate commitments. Does the Minister of State have a comment in that regard? I have one final question after his response.

As Deputy Farrell stated, the provision of trained workers is crucial to rolling out the retrofitting campaign. The sector is aware of the challenge. We are getting ourselves to a place to provide the training that will be required to produce the workers. As the Deputy rightly said, a training course can range from a number of days to a few weeks. There is a limited number of training centres at the moment. There are two centres of excellence and, currently, two education and training boards provide training. All the other ETBs are working now to scale up to a point where they can provide this training. As the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, alluded to yesterday when he spoke about the announcement, the sector now has certainty as the scheme has been launched. That is a good thing. In response to that, tomorrow we will invite submissions from providers, SOLAS and the ETBs. We are providing €430 million in capital to training providers to make a submission to us on their requirements to provide training centres and facilities.

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister of State. A sum of €430 million is a lot of money.

It is over four years.

It is approximately €100 million a year. Are we talking about additional classrooms or facilities?

It is to allow the providers to provide the training centres. It is not just in retrofitting, although retrofitting courses will be part of it. In the ETB sector in particular, a lot of work has been going on in the background as the ETBs get ready for this. We have the nearly zero energy building, NZEB, centre in Wexford which is in the Chairman's constituency. We have provided funding of €75 million to provide for more than 35,000 learners to avail of green skills modules. They are the shorter type of courses. There are 2,650 additional places in retrofit and NZEB. This did not commence with yesterday's announcement; a great deal of preparatory work has gone into it.

The Deputy asked about access. The Department works with the agencies that provide these services and supports. We are happy to look into any specific queries the Deputy wishes to raise. In particular, we have a national plan for equity of access to higher education. Over the past four years, since the commencement of the plan, 193 students with disabilities have been awarded bursaries. The funding for the national plan for equity of access to higher education for 2022 is €5 million.

My question was more about the 244 places available at third level annually for speech and language therapy, occupational therapy and clinical psychology. They are being provided to support children with additional educational needs but that it is not enough. It might well be a demand issue but the Department has an important role to play in increasing the number of places available so that we have professionals coming out the other end to provide ongoing support children in school, especially at primary level, to access education.

We will provide the committee with a note on that.

I would very much appreciate that. I apologise if I have gone on a little too long. My final question is one I have asked before but to which I have not had a response thus far. I appreciate that it is possibly an unusual question. The modified leaving certificate of the past two years has had significant consequences for third level and a significant amount of funding had to be provided to meet extra demand for courses. In the past in an average year, the Department would have known the number of students dropping out in first year as a consequence of making the exact mistake I made in 1995 when I selected the wrong course. I subsequently found the right course and went from there. The dropout rate is measurable. There is a significant amount to be learned from the dropout rate and an analysis of the reasons behind it. The past two years of accredited grades put an awful lot of students into third level who, in other circumstances, might not have been so fortunate. I would like to either prove or disprove that statement and the only analysis apart from the grades at third level is the dropout rate. Such analysis would be helpful, especially in the context of the root and branch reform of senior cycle and the leaving certificate the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, is doing at secondary level. To be fair to him, the Chairman has probably held more than 20 hours of committee hearings in the public eye, not to mention the dozens of hours of work that are done out of view of the public. That analysis would feed into the leaving certificate reform. I am interested to hear the Minister of State's view on that.

We can provide that data to the committee and the Deputy.

I thank the Minister of State for that.

I have one question and then I will allow both Deputies in for two or three minutes before we wrap up. Is there a provision in the Estimates for an increase in funding for the establishment of further technological universities?

The technological university in the south east will be coming up soon. I presume there will be provision for that.

Absolutely, there is. As I alluded to in my comments to Deputy Alan Farrell, the Department will announce a capital investment call tomorrow. That will be available to the technological sector for any projects or proposals it may have for us. The Chairman will be aware that the different technological university projects are at different points in their journeys or transitions and that we have a fund of €90 million, the technological university transformation fund, that will run until 2023. We allocated a further €40 million to the technological university education reforms under the national recovery and resilience plan and €18 million for technology-oriented research under the European Regional Development Fund, ERDF, was also progressed. Funding is not an issue.

Have the Minister of State, the Minister, Deputy Harris, or their officials had consultations with the Minister for Finance with a view to ending the prohibition on technological universities borrowing in the same way as other universities? Does the Minister of State accept that the current situation unfairly disadvantages technological universities and that there should be a level playing pitch with regard to borrowing? I know technological universities can borrow for accommodation but, other than that, they are prohibited from doing so. We have visited Cork and Limerick, the Minister of State's own constituency, and absolutely fantastic work is being done. This is an issue that consistently came up when speaking to people in the institutes there and in speaking to the presidents of other technological universities. The committee has a module of work on funding for universities and technological universities coming up. We are trying to arrange a date on which the Ministers, Deputies Harris and Donohoe, could come before the committee together to talk about this specific issue. I do not expect the Minister of State to have an answer but I impress upon him the need to progress this matter in his Department for the benefit of the technological universities. That would be very much appreciated. We will have a wider conversation on this issue with the Minister, Deputy Harris, and possibly the Minister of State along with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe.

We are talking about apprenticeships and so on. We were told in Cork that, if the borrowing capacity was available, the number of apprenticeships going through the technological university could be increased. The facilities there date back to the 1970s and 1980s. In fairness, the institution is doing a fantastic job. I give the Minister of State, the Minister, Deputy Harris, and their Department full credit for increasing the number of apprenticeships and making them more appealing to an awful lot of students. In the past, there were students who felt looked down on for doing apprenticeships. That has totally changed. The Department has done a great amount of work on that. However, at the same time, we should be putting the proper level of investment into the institutions as well.

What the Chair has said with regard to student accommodation is true. There is great demand for it and we are addressing that. My colleague, the Minister, Deputy Harris, has spoken about this on a number of occasions. The technological university sector will be permitted to borrow to build student accommodation. That will happen. The Minister is in ongoing dialogue with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage because the issue has implications for the Housing for All plan. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage has indicated that he is open to looking at the cost-rental model for student accommodation. The two Departments are collaborating on that.

I am really pleased to hear the Minister of State saying that funding will not be an issue with regard to capital expenditure on buildings because, as he will know himself, some of the buildings in which training and courses are delivered desperately need some capital funding, although others are excellent. I welcome that. I bring to the Minister of State's attention the town of Ballyhaunis. There has been an application in for some time with regard to delivering training and apprenticeships in a centre in the town where programmes have been delivered. I mention Ballyhaunis in particular because it is a very vibrant, multicultural town, which results in challenges, particularly with regard to delivering training and apprenticeships within the community. I ask the Minister of State to look at that application. I will wait until tomorrow to see the criteria being used for this. I ask the Minister of State to take the whole town and the make-up of the population into consideration because delivering apprenticeships within the community so that people do not have to travel can result in many positive externalities that can feed into the whole of the community, helping those who are working very hard to ensure the community is vibrant. The bank in Ballyhaunis has been taken away. It had a Bank of Ireland branch and another bank but there is no bank there now. One of the best ways to ensure the town is sustainable and viable and to increase the human capital within it is to provide for apprenticeships and training in order that people can find work of the very same kind they would be doing in those apprenticeships in the area and meet the skills demands there. It is crucially important. We should not miss this opportunity.

We will revert to the Deputy on that specific application from Ballyhaunis. There is to be a 115% increase in our capital allocation, which is a significant amount of funding. As I said in my remarks to the Chair and Deputy Alan Farrell, it is a matter of building and increasing capacity. That is exactly what we want to do.

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, and his officials for their constructive engagement in this meeting. That concludes the consideration of the Revised Estimates for Votes 26 and 45.

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