SELECT COMMITTEE ON ENVIRONMENT AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT díospóireacht -
Thursday, 7 Mar 2002

Vol. 5 No. 2

European Charter of Local Self-Government.

Minister for the Environment and Local Government (Mr. Dempsey)

I seek Dáil approval to the terms of the Kyoto Protocol on Climate Change, the Espoo Convention on Transboundary Environmental Impact Assessment and the European Charter of Local Self-Government. While these three agreements have different purposes, the common thread is endorsing the desire of the international community to work together, with our peoples, to achieve much more than we could by acting alone. Approving the Kyoto Protocol will ensure Ireland, with the industrialised world, supports the global response to tackle climate change and rising greenhouse gas emissions, now accepted as the most significant global environmental problem. The Espoo Convention focuses on improving international co-operation in assessing environmental impacts of major developments and will ensure we are notified of any developments likely to affect Ireland. The European Charter of Local Self-Government commits parties to basic principles which guarantee the political, administrative and financial independence of local authorities - a touchstone of democratic government.

Under the Kyoto Protocol, industrialised countries have agreed legally binding targets to begin reducing emissions of greenhouse gases, initially to 5% below 1990 levels by 2008-2010. Ireland's target is to limit emissions to 13% over this period as part of an EU burden sharing agreement designed to reduce overall EU emissions by 8%. Key elements in implementing the protocol include a strong compliance regime to underpin its environmental integrity, and additional funding to assist developing countries adapt to the impacts of climate change. The protocol also allows for emissions trading to give countries added flexibility in meeting their targets. The Government's national climate change strategy sets a ten year framework for achieving cross-sectoral and sector specific measures to ensure Ireland complies with the protocol with economic and environmental efficiency.

It is a prime objective of EU environmental and international policy, particularly of Environment Ministers, that all member states ratify the protocol by June 2002 to allow for its entry into force by the World Summit on Sustainable Development in August-September 2002. Last Monday member states and the European Union committed to this timetable. This is timely from Ireland's perspective. About six countries have already ratified the protocol, another six are at the same stage as we are and three are about to start the process.

Under the Espoo Convention, any State likely to be affected by a major development in another state must be given an opportunity to participate in environmental impact assessment - EIA - procedures, including consultations with the relevant national consent authorities. In particular, the public in those areas likely to be affected must be given an opportunity to participate. The convention is most relevant in the context of projects close to the border with Northern Ireland, averaging at three or four annually. The procedures for consultation between relevant authorities, North and South, are well established and work well in practice.

Transboundary EIA provisions have been incorporated into the physical planning and other consent systems in Ireland since 1990, in compliance with the terms of the EU directive on EIA. The Planning and Development Act, 2000, and accompanying Planning and Development Regulations, 2001, which will take full effect from 11 March, provide for the wider application of transboundary EIA requirements arising under the terms of the Espoo Convention.

Ratification of the European Charter of Local Self-Government arises on foot of completion of the modernisation of the local government legal framework. This involved constitutional recognition for local government with guaranteed local elections, and an updated local government code in the Local Government Act, 2001. Also in 2001 a report on local democracy in Ireland prepared by the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities of Europe generally welcomed our ongoing local government renewal programme and concluded Ireland was in a position to ratify the charter. The congress met members of this committee in preparing its report. With the major elements of the renewal programme in place it is appropriate that the charter is now ratified. While at times there are naturally disagreements on policies affecting local government, all concerned will support ratification of the charter as evidence of this country's continued commitment, across all parties, to the development of local democracy.

I commend these three important international agreements to the committee.

Mr. Killeen

The committee has dealt with all three agreements, to some extent, recently, certainly in the debate on the regulations and previously on the Bill. What arises under the Espoo Convention has been dealt with in considerable detail. The European Charter of Local Self-Government arises frequently. Having included references to local government in the Constitution in 1999, we have probably achieved more than most. I had better not say much about the third agreement because I am not wildly enamoured by some of the provisions of the Kyoto Protocol from the perspective of this country, but two out of three is not bad. Perhaps we should give a formal blessing to all three.

Ms Clune

I understood there would be some progress on the Kyoto Protocol on Climate Change in the budget towards green taxation with a view to implementing the strategy. Following a recent look at it, the conversion of Moneypoint is one of the major planks of the strategy and will have a huge impact in addressing our greenhouse gas emissions. Has any progress been made in this area? I have tried to raise the matter with the Department of Public Enterprise and the Department of the Environment and Local Government. It appears that while it is provided for in the strategy, there is no commitment on the ground and that it will only happen if fuel efficiency in terms of natural gas allows. It is an important part of our commitment to addressing the issue.

Mr. Killeen

Since the issue has raised its head I have to say something about it. Like Deputy Clune, so far as I can gather it is not always easy to get detailed information on where we are going, but there appears to be a move towards natural gas in relation to Moneypoint. Clearly, this has some advantages. Long-term strategic considerations mean that the merits of continuing with coal should at least be properly examined. Obviously, this incurs the cost of scrubbers, which is very substantial. However, it has some strategic advantages in terms of the availability of fuel. While one could argue that natural gas is likely to be available in abundant quantities for some time, it has to be recognised that it is a finite resource, as is coal, but which happens to be available in substantial quantities at reasonable cost. I may as well declare a local interest. While coal continues to be used the current workforce is guaranteed employment. If there was a change to gas, employment would fall to about one tenth of the current level. I say this as a representative for the area. Given that we have not looked carefully enough at the other elements, we should do so.

Mr. Dempsey

Nobody would fall out with Deputy Killeen for expressing concerns about Moneypoint or any possible threat to it. It is right that he should raise these matters. Moneypoint has been mentioned in the national climate change strategy and so on.

There are a whole range of considerations within the strategy that have to be taken on board for the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions. One of the considerations that will have to be taken into account before anything can happen at Moneypoint is security of electricity supply. There are those who will say there is evidence that we are moving and that there are alternatives. The second gas interconnector to Scotland, two new electricity plants powered by gas this year, two new peat plants, the renewablesprogramme, the Corrib gas field and so onwith energy market liberalisation generally will have an effect on Moneypoint one way or the other.

The strategy states it is a matter of economic choice for the ESB at the end of the day. One can reduce greenhouse gas emissions by direct action, such as closing a plant, or changing from coal to oil or gas, but there is also the possibility of emissions trading, which the ESB is studying in detail. We also have experts looking at the trading operation.

The reason the answers one receives on Moneypoint are vague is that no decisions have been made, but obviously it is a major contributor to greenhouse gas emissions. Scrubbers will not solve the problem of CO2, on which they have no effect. They do, however, have a very beneficial effect from the point of view of vessel to sulphur dioxide but not CO2.

It is a six to eight year strategy. It was never envisaged that everything would happen at once. Work is ongoing on energy taxes and so on by the tax strategy group which comes under the direct responsibility of the Minister for Finance. We are pursuing our agenda on energy taxation, as is the European Union. We need to ensure that whatever tax regime is arrived at to help meet climate change targets it will have the least possible impact on competition in the economy. Obviously, various Departments and companies would advocate that we do not go near energy taxation. However, some form of energy taxation will have to be introduced at some stage. I am content that people are talking about the matter and that we, as a Department, will advance the case for it. We have made the arguments. I am content that if the arguments we make and the examples we can find in other countries in Europe are sufficiently robust, we will end up with some form of tax regime for energy products.

Ms Clune

Let me return to the Moneypoint issue. If, as the Minister says, it is a matter for the ESB and does not happen, how will it affect the strategy given that it has to be implemented by 2010?

Mr. Dempsey

The ESB cannot walk away and state it is not doing it, neither can any other sector, such as the farming or transport sector, or the tax strategy group. The national climate change strategy is an integrated document, in which everybody has to play their part. If the ESB states it will not close Moneypoint or change it to ensure it is gas-fired, it will have to report to us on how it will achieve the target of 3.4 megatonnes of CO2. It will have to state half will be achieved by emissions trading and the rest through other flexible mechanisms. It will have to give us that type of cut. That is the way it operates.

None of us knows what will happen in a five year period. I am sure the Deputy is familiar with some of the experiments and projects undertaken under the cleaner technology development by the EPA and others, where major savings have accrued, both to the environment and the bottom lines for the companies concerned. Over the next three or four years, probably through research and so forth, there might be other ways, other than what is contained in the strategy, to effect the savings we want.

It is not easy to be prescriptive, but I hope that on an annual basis - I will start it myself this year - we will produce a report on the strategy and show what progress is being made, if we can quantify it from the point of view of the levels of greenhouse gases and the reductions or expected reductions over a three or four year period from the measures we are taking. We have a slight disadvantage in that most of the results of the recording, monitoring and so forth are received 12 months and even two years in arrears. However, I intend to try to do this and hope, if I am not in this position, my successor will continue the practice.

Acting Chairman

That concludes our consideration of the Kyoto Protocol on Climate Change, the Espoo Convention on Transboundary Environmental Impact Assessment and the European Charter of Local Self-Government. I thank the Minister and his officials for their participation in the proceedings. I also thank members for their invaluable contributions and the clerk to the committee, the committee secretariat, the Editor of Debates and office and support staff for their assistance.

Mr. Dempsey

As I am not sure whether I will be back before the committee before the general election, I take the opportunity to thank the Chairman, Vice-Chairman and members of the committee for the courtesy and co-operation I and my officials, who have been before the committee on a number of occasions, have received. The level of co-operation we have received from all sides of the House, particularly with regard to the heavy legislative programme in recent years, has been fantastic. I formally thank members on my own behalf and that of the Ministers of State and officials in my Department.

Acting Chairman

I thank the Minister. We got through a tremendous amount of work, particularly the Planning and Development Bill, the Local Government Bill and other legislation, in this Dáil. I thank the Minister and his officials for their help and assistance to me, the Chairman and members of the committee which will now adjourn until Wednesday, 20 March, when it will consider the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, 2001.