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Select Committee on European Union Affairs díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 Feb 2022

Migration: Discussion with UNHCR Representatiive for EU Affairs

We resume our consideration of the topic of migration. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Gonzalo Vargas Llosa, UNHCR representative for EU affairs, along with his colleagues, Mr. Enda O’Neill and Ms Sophie Magennis. Before we resume our consideration, I must read out a note on privilege and deal with some housekeeping matters.

All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement and any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask members participating via Microsoft Teams, prior to making a contribution, to confirm that they are on the Leinster House campus.

Mr. Vargas Llosa will be interested to know that we had a very good engagement this morning with the European Commissioner for Migration and Home Affairs, Ms Ylva Johansson. I acknowledge the work of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, UNHCR. I had an up close and personal look at its work in Jordan, Lebanon and Uganda back in 2016. I am familiar with the work the organisation is doing. It is important work. The organisation has been at work since 1950.

It is also important to refer to the intervention of France to make migration a pivotal issue during the French Presidency. Commissioner Johansson expanded on that earlier and I am sure Mr. Llosa has a view on it too. I invite him to make his opening statement.

Mr. Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

I thank the Chairman for his very kind words about UNHCR. I am glad he had the opportunity to see our work in person. I will start by thanking the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs for the invitation to address it on UNHCR's recommendations to the French and Czech presidencies of the Council of the European Union to prioritise the better protection of refugees in Europe and globally.

I also extend our thanks, through this committee, for Ireland’s important contribution to the protection of refugees both globally and in Ireland. Ireland’s significant support to UNHCR’s operations around the world is greatly valued and we look forward to continuing our collaboration with Ireland to advance the protection of refugees.

UNHCR’s recommendations to the French and Czech presidencies come at an important time for the ongoing discussions at EU level on the reform of asylum within the EU and the protection of refugees globally. These discussions are largely focused on the European Commission’s proposed Pact on Migration and Asylum, published in September 2020. I imagine the members of this committee will have heard more about the pact in their earlier meeting with Commissioner Johansson.

UNHCR is calling on the presidencies of the Council to urgently find a common and sustainable approach in the EU to protecting people forced to flee, and to commit to continued and increased global solidarity with refugees and the countries hosting them.

While many EU countries remain committed to European and international human rights and refugee laws and principles, in 2021, unfortunately and regrettably, violent pushbacks of asylum seekers at EU borders have continued. These practices endanger lives and undermine fundamental human rights, including the right to seek asylum. The European Commission’s proposed pact on migration and asylum offers an opportunity to move from an ad hoc crisis-driven approach to a common one that is more comprehensive, well-managed and predictable, both within and beyond the Union. Progress on ending pushbacks, the establishment of independent national monitoring mechanisms to investigate them and measures to enhance search and rescue and ensure predictable disembarkation of those rescued at sea are urgently needed.

With manageable numbers of new arrivals of refugees and migrants to Europe, now is the time for common action. In our recommendations to the Presidencies, which have been shared with the committee, the UNHCR has identified three priorities. The first is ensuring access to territory and addressing human rights violations at the border. It is essential that access to territory and procedures on arrival to the EU and globally is maintained at a time when the number of displaced persons in the world is at an all-time high and humanitarian needs are increasing. Some 85% of the world’s refugees are hosted in low and middle-income countries, while numbers of arrivals in Europe are manageable. The UNHCR remains gravely concerned about violent pushbacks at the EU’s external borders. EU member states must end these practices and investigations should be conducted into credible reports. To this end, the Presidencies are encouraged to work with member states to implement independent national monitoring mechanisms without delay. I believe Commissioner Johansson also spoke about the importance of these mechanisms in her intervention.

The second priority is developing fair and fast asylum procedures in the EU. EU member states need to continue their work to develop functional asylum systems to swiftly and fairly determine whether an asylum seeker is in need of international protection. Fair and efficient procedures can support this while building trust in the asylum system and reducing situations of prolonged limbo. The new European Union Agency for Asylum will be well placed to assist with this.

The third priority is enhancing solidarity and responsibility-sharing among EU member states. Good practices on the relocation of asylum seekers from EU member states that are under pressure to other EU member states have been developed through ad hoc mechanisms such as the 2019 Valletta declaration. Ireland has supported such relocation initiatives by relocating asylum seekers and refugees from Greece, Italy and Malta. This is very welcome and the UNHCR is encouraging all EU member states to support such initiatives. We also welcome the initiative taken by the French Presidency in recent weeks, including at the Justice and Home Affairs Council last week, to build greater support among EU member states for relocation.

The UNHCR is also calling on the Presidencies to strengthen global solidarity by providing more support to the countries and regions where most forcibly displaced people are.

In particular, the UNHCR has set out recommendations for a more flexible and predictable humanitarian funding for aid agencies and more targeted humanitarian and development funding to support those countries to improve access to protection and solutions. Let me once again thank Ireland, not only for the fact it is an important donor to the UNHCR for refugee operations around the world, but also for the fact a significant amount of its contributions are made in a flexible manner.

The UNHCR has recommended that the presidencies encourage EU member states to step up their commitments to the resettlement of refugees into the EU. Unfortunately, due to Covid, the number of refugees resettled globally in 2020 and 2021 was greatly reduced. The UNHCR has called on EU member states to resettle 36,000 refugees in 2022 and, in addition to that number, 42,500 Afghan refugees over the next five years.

Ireland has made significant contributions to resettlement and humanitarian admissions over the years, and we count on the continued support of Ireland in our combined efforts to expand resettlement opportunities for the world’s most vulnerable refugees. I thank the members for their attention and I look forward to an exchange with the committee on these issues.

I thank Mr. Vargas Llosa for his contribution.

I thank Mr. Vargas Llosa for his presentation. The committee engaged with the Commissioner this morning and a number of questions arise out of that session also. The first question is whether the UNHCR is happy with the pact on migration and asylum. It seems to me it is progress. I am aware it ran into some difficulties previously, perhaps on the question of quotas and so on. In general terms, does the UNHCR see it as progress and as a solution from the point of view of the EU or a road to a solution?

I wish to re-emphasise the point around solidarity and to confirm that Ireland fully subscribes to the solidarity principle as outlined in the pact on migration and asylum. Although Ireland is at a remove geographically from many of these problems, we are still not deaf to the problem and to the need for a solution on an EU-wide basis.

Mr. Vargas Llosa referred to the need to determine applications for asylum quickly. Ireland has the direct provision system, which has been quite controversial. There are plans to reform this and our Minister is very engaged in this. Is this something the UNHCR would welcome? How does Ireland stand on this issue? I believe all of us are generally unhappy with the way direct provision has materialised down through the years. We would welcome a reform of the system. I presume this is something the UNHCR would support.

With regard to climate change and security, when Ireland held the chair of the United Nations Security Council in November, we endeavoured to put forward the concept of linking security and climate change, with some success. The final vote did not go favourably. Is the UNHCR also conscious of this in the context of climate change, extreme weather events, scarcity and resources arising from climate change? Is this on the UNHCR radar? Does Mr. Vargas Llosa believe we must be conscious of this and the need to plan for it even more in the coming years?

Is that on the UNHCR's radar? Does the UNHCR believe that is something we really need to be conscious of and plan for even more in the coming years? I would be interested in the witnesses' take on that. I know that some countries, and Russia in particular, did not support that concept at the UN.

I also ask the witnesses to give us some indication of where they see the issue of the displacement of refugees going in the future. I saw a statistic that in 2020 there were 24.6 million externally displaced people. Where does the UNHCR see this going in the future? It seems to me to be an overwhelming challenge, hence the need for the pact on migration and asylum. I note that the witnesses stated that the migration issue, in particular, is manageable from an EU perspective. I would agree with that. We need migration. Do the witnesses think that the situation in respect of refugees and asylum seekers is only inevitably going to get worse? How would they predict the future in that regard, given global trends and so on? I will leave it at that for the moment.

Mr. Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

I thank the Deputy for those pertinent questions. To begin with, on the pact, I recall that on the first day that it was presented, our High Commissioner summed up our position quite well. He made it clear that of course, no product can be absolutely perfect. The second important thing he said is that any product - and in this case he was referring to the proposal for the pact - will require some concessions and give and take. Those are two important points. The third point that the High Commissioner made is that imperfections aside, the pact is very much needed. Many of the issues that I mentioned in my opening statement, not least, violent push-backs and so on, deaths at sea and unacceptable reception conditions, could be solved if there was an understanding among EU member states based on better border procedures and solidarity. Our hope is that progress on the pact will continue and will materialise in this coming presidency. Just to recap very quickly, we, as the UNHCR, have highlighted nine areas of particular importance when it comes to the pact. I will list them quickly. They are: access to territory and fair and fast asylum procedures; addressing human rights violations at the borders; enhancing monitoring and contingency planning; adequate reception conditions and alternatives to detention; intra-EU solidarity and sharing responsibility; return of asylum seekers whose applications have been rejected following due process; effective integration and inclusion for those granted asylum; resettlement and complementary pathways; and family reunification. As the Deputy will no doubt know, at the informal meeting of the justice and home affairs ministers on 3 February, ministers of the interior unanimously agreed to the French step-by-step approach to negotiating the pact.

The French now have strong political backing for the next steps. Discussions will continue in advance of the March formal Justice and Home Affairs Council where, it is hoped, concrete progress will be made.

I welcome the Deputy's statement on solidarity. Solidarity is the crux of making the pact materialise and happen and of having a better, more humane and more effective asylum system in the EU.

The Deputy also mentioned climate change. As he may know, in the global compact on refugees which was affirmed in the UN General Assembly in December 2018, there is a recognition that, "climate, environmental degradation and disasters increasingly interact with the drivers of refugee movements".

In January 2020, the High Commissioner, Mr. Grandi, appointed Mr. Andrew Harper as a special adviser on climate action. Mr. Harper drives UNHCR's engagement on the climate emergency, serves as a global advocate and is responsible for providing oversight and expertise to shape UNHCR's climate action agenda.

Our action in this very important area basically focuses on three areas. The first is providing legal advice, guidance and support to the international community to develop enhanced protection for refugees and other people displaced in the context of disasters and climate change and catalysing international discussions on their rights. Second, we strive to improve the predictability of our engagement to anticipate and prepare for emergencies brought on by climate-related and other natural hazards. Third, we aim to improve UNHCR's own environmental sustainability by reducing our greenhouse gas emissions and minimising the negative impacts on the environment.

On the Deputy's question about where we see the future, it is always difficult to try to make such predictions. However, if one looked at the statistics that UNHCR regularly issues, one will have seen that the trend over the years is for the number of refugees and internally displaced persons and asylum seekers to grow. That is an indication, unfortunately, of what we are likely to continue to see - at least in the immediate future.

For that trend to be reversed, what is needed, first of all, and here I appeal on behalf of UNHCR to Ireland, the EU and the international community, as the High Commissioner, Mr. Grandi, so very often does, for more effective and active leadership to try to address the root causes of forced displacement. That involves, above all, trying to resolve the conflicts that create such displacement.

If one looks at a world map, one sees so many situations, wars and conflicts that have been going on for years and years.

Afghanistan, Syria and so many others come to mind. While we have to strive to secure peace in all those places, we know it is going to take time. In the meantime, we have not talked so much today about that, but it is extraordinarily important, not only that refugees in those regions of origin receive more humanitarian aid to keep them alive so that they survive, but also to step up development support for those countries. The idea is not only that refugees are fed or sheltered but that they can also strive to become self-sufficient and contribute to the economy of those countries that generally house them. This requires not only humanitarian aid but also development aid. I will leave it there for the time being.

I thank the witnesses. Some of this might have been dealt with already. In his opening statement, Mr. Vargas Llosa spoke about human rights access to territory and addressing human rights violations at borders. Will he give some detail on that? We have seen it from time to time and we can be well removed from it geographically in this State. We spoke earlier with the Commissioner about Frontex and concerns in regard to it. She seemed to believe that some of this had been addressed. I would welcome Mr. Vargas Llosa's view on that.

We all accept that fast asylum procedures are a necessity. It is utterly wrong to keep people in limbo, which is the case here with direct provision. Mr. Vargas Llosa seems welcoming of the EUAA. Does he reckon it will be able to do the business that needs to be done in that regard?

The next two points are connected. I refer to solidarity and the sharing of responsibility. Beyond that, there is global solidarity. There have been major human rights issues with third countries, for example, in Turkey and Libya. That is even before we get into what was done on the Belarus border by Lukashenko. What is Mr. Vargas Llosa's view on the EU and its relationships and agreements with third countries where in some cases dreadful human rights abuses are occurring? I accept at times the Commission may be involved in trying to mitigate this and dealing with the reality of some of the people who are in control in these states. The big ask is what needs to happen as soon as possible.

Mr. Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

Deputy Murphy made a point about Frontex.

I am aware of the conversation the committee had with Commissioner Johansson before our intervention. It is very important to have in place strong accountability mechanisms. We are not opposed at all to the idea, concept or mandate of Frontex. The key, of course, is how that is implemented. It must be-----

Sorry to interrupt. Is Mr. Vargas Llosa referring to the independent monitoring mechanisms? In his view, what should they look like?

Mr. Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

As the Deputy knows, the independent national monitoring mechanism is part of the proposal in the pact. The idea is that in each EU member state there should be a mechanism that is exactly as its name states, that is, independent of the government and able to quickly and effectively investigate any incidents of what I called in my intervention "credible reports" about, for example, violent pushbacks.

As the Deputy may know, a mechanism of this type was established in Greece recently and we look forward to seeing whether that mechanism is indeed independent, credible and effective. That this mechanism has been put in place in Greece is a good start but it needs to be implemented across the board in the EU. That would be a very good way of ensuring accountability.

The Deputy raised the issue of direct provision. I will ask my colleague, Mr. O'Neill, who is more familiar with this matter, to say a few words.

To make one final point, the Deputy referred to agreements with countries in terms of sending people back and he specifically mentioned Libya. He knows our position when it comes to Libya. We do not believe it is a country where the conditions are such that people should be returned. The situation in Libya is chaotic and insecure, and we have seen numerous examples of violations of human rights against refugees and migrants. If the Deputy will agree, I will pass over to-----

Before Mr. Vargas Llosa does that, what is his view regarding the European Commission's engagement with third countries, such as Libya and Turkey? Where should that engagement be? That is accepting that on an international basis everybody has to deal with people who do not have clean hands from time to time.

Mr. Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

This is exactly the question I was answering and on which I gave an example. It depends on where people are being returned to, how they are being returned and who is being returned.

I gave the example of Libya as a country to which, we believe, it is not safe to return people as there are no minimum guarantees and no minimum standards, structures and mechanism to ensure that people can be safe.

Maybe Mr. O'Neill could say a word about direct provision and as the European Union Agency for Asylum, EUAA, was mentioned, I will ask my colleague, Ms Magennis, to say a couple of words about our collaboration with it.

Mr. Enda O'Neill

The committee members' colleagues in the Committee of Public Accounts heard recently updates on the process. It also heard from the new Chief International Protection Officer. Processing times continue to be a concern. Applicants at first instance are now waiting on average 23 months for a decision and 14 months for a prioritised case. However, it is important to acknowledge that the new Chief International Protection Officer, since he has taken up the role, has taken a number of steps to address that and we have seen significant improvements over the past couple of months. We are satisfied that that is heading in a more positive direction notwithstanding the effects of the pandemic.

On direct provision more generally, of course, the White Paper on direct provision is a welcome ambitious plan which we believe has the potential to transform the integration outcomes of refugees in Ireland. The UNHCR is on the programme board and is working with the Government to support it in its implementation plans.

Equally, the recent announcement on the regularisation scheme is welcome. That is something that could benefit thousands of applicants and we were grateful to see that the primacy of refugee status was taken into consideration in the design of that scheme, that is, that no one will have to withdraw his or her protection claim in order to avail of it.

On a related note, there are significant challenges around people with status not being able to leave accommodation centres. The latest figures we have show that there were more than 1,700 people living in accommodation centres with a form of status not being able to transition out. This appears to be particular acute at present largely as a result of high rental prices and the lack of private and social housing in Ireland more generally. We acknowledge, however, there is a programme in place to support people with status moving on and over 900 people were helped to move on last year. However, looking forward, with faster processing times and with the effects of the regularisation scheme, I anticipate that that will be an area of pressure over the years to come. In the short term as well, there are a number of issues in the system as it currently operates, in particular, the ongoing reliance on emergency accommodation and the need to provide HIQA with the legislative underpinning that it requires to have the mandate to inspect accommodation centres against the relevant nationals standards.

Overall, it has been a positive period in terms of the policy agenda set by the current Government. There are many ambitious plans that have been committed to and it will be important that we all work together over the coming years to make sure that they are implemented in practice.

Ms Sophie Magennis

I bid the Deputies and Senators, "Good afternoon".

Returning to the point that Ó Murchú raised around fast asylum procedures and whether the new European Union Agency for Asylum can help, we think it can. This new European Union Agency for Asylum replaces the old European Asylum Support Office, EASO, which had been around for ten years until it was replaced by the new EUAA on 19 January this year.

This new EUAA has quite a lot more powers and will have more personnel at its disposal. In particular, it will have a reserve pool of 500 experts drawn from EU member states that will be able to help it in its work.

This agency can deploy, go to an EU member state, and help the officials who are involved in looking at asylum cases. They can help them with reviewing those cases, with interviews, and with techniques to try to avoid backlogs and to bring in faster asylum procedures.

Ireland contributed a great deal to EASO, which preceded the EUAA. The former chairperson of EASO was an Irish official, David Costello, who invested a great deal of time in the agency. Irish officials participate in the work of the agency. It has a great deal to offer and also has new accountability mechanisms. This is something that Mr. Vargas Llosa touched upon earlier. The new EUAA will have a fundamental rights officer who will be responsible for ensuring that the agency complies with human rights in the way that it does its work. The agency will have an enhanced consultative forum made up of NGOs of civil society that will keep these agencies in check.

We very much appreciate the questions and points being raised by members of the committee around the need for accountability and, in particular, in the engagement of European institutions with third countries. We think that these new mechanisms, new fundamental rights officers and a greater role for NGOs will try to help in that balance. Clearly, there is a long way to go. Commissioner Johansson also alluded to that earlier. I thank the Chairman.

I thank Ms Magennis. Deputy Haughey has a supplementary question.

I thank Ms Magennis for her reply. Can I have an update from UNHCR on Afghanistan? What the UNHCR's understanding is of what is happening there under the Taliban regime and of the evacuation or otherwise of refugees? Mr. Vargas Llosa highlighted the programmes that Ireland has in place as a result of the situation in Afghanistan. The situation there seems to be an overwhelming challenge for us all. What is the agency’s understanding of the current position in Afghanistan on human rights and on the refugee situation and has the global community stepped up to the plate to deal with that issue?

Mr. Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

I will say a number of words about the position in Afghanistan and the region and, if the Deputy wishes, I will add some words on Ireland’s specific role. It is clear that the humanitarian needs in Afghanistan have unfortunately only continued to grow. They were already there and were very significant in respect of internal displacement within Afghanistan but there were also the significant numbers of refugees particularly in Pakistan and Iran. Those needs have continued to grow in the past few months. Recently, as Deputy may know, the international community and the United Nations launched what I believe was the largest appeal ever in respect of a single country. If I am not mistaken, the amount involved is in the region of $4.5 billion, which is being asked for from the international community to try to meet some of the most basic needs of women, men and children. Again, if my figures are not wrong, some $1.5 billion out of that almost $5 billion have been pledged. That is a start but there is quite a long way to go.

In that appeal by the international community and the United Nations, there was also a very clear alarm and alert in respect of the possible famine that so many Afghans could face, not least in wintertime. To sum up, enormous displacement continues both inside and outside Afghanistan, in addition to enormous humanitarian needs, many of which remain unmet for lack of resources. There is certainly continued violations of human rights and an enormous way to go to improve human rights, especially for women and girls, which is an issue I know is also of great concern to Ireland.

I will end by emphasising the importance of continuing to support Pakistan and Iran. These are countries that have been hosting Afghans for decades now. I started my career in the UN in Pakistan in 1991, when there were already millions of Afghans in Pakistan. Today, there are even more. It is absolutely critical to continue to support those Governments because of the enormous strain those millions of refugees pose for countries that are not rich. It is also important to continue that support to make sure those borders continue to be open for those fleeing Afghanistan.

Does Mr. O'Neill want to say a couple of words about Ireland's role, specifically?

Mr. Enda O'Neill

We should acknowledge that Ireland moved very quickly, following the events in Afghanistan in the summer, first, by issuing a number of visa waivers to allow people to leave Afghanistan at short notice. More than 400 have arrived in 2021. In addition, the Department of Justice put in place a number of prioritisations of existing applications for family unification or international protection, and has more recently announced the Afghan admissions programme, which opened in late 2021, under which up to 500 persons may be admitted. These are all very welcome initiatives.

We should also mention, however, that we have issued a number of statements in the past number of years expressing concern at the narrow confines of family reunification procedures in Ireland. While schemes such as the Afghan admissions programme are very welcome, we should also acknowledge that they cannot be availed of by all. It can be very difficult for refugees who lack financial resources, who do not have the accommodation to commit to their family members or even just lack passports or identity documentation, to avail of such schemes in practice.

Finally, I will echo Commissioner Johansson's earlier comments that it is very important we do not forget global resettlement needs more generally, even while responding to new emergencies, such as that in Afghanistan. In December 2019, Ireland made a four-year resettlement pledge to take in 2,900 refugees between 2020 and 2023; the pledge for 2020 was 650 and that for 2021 was 700.

Those ambitions have been badly affected by the pandemic. With regard to resettlement numbers, last year the number of admissions was only 55, while in 2020 it was 195. We would like to see a return to full capacity this year because Ireland's resettlement programme has rightly been lauded by the Commissioner and others as an important part of Ireland's role in solidarity with other countries. We understand the reasons and the many operational difficulties that arose during the pandemic but we would like to see acceleration of that programme over the year ahead and to meet the commitments made a number of years ago.

I thank Mr. Vargas Llosa, Ms Magennis and Mr. O'Neill. I think I cut off Mr. Vargas Llosa, which I have a tendency to do with people, so apologies for that. It was when he was making a statement on Frontex. He also spoke about a more active leadership and we have discussed multiple issues that have been caused by bad political plays by major powers in relation to Afghanistan and Libya, which have led to unfathomable pain and death. We are still dealing with the outworking. What is Mr. Vargas Llosa looking for there, beyond calling out where wrongs are done?

Ms Magennis made a point on some of the moves being made around the relationship with third countries. I am not just talking about whether people should be returned to the likes of Libya but also about people not coming from Libya and Turkey and particular developments and relationships that there may be between the EU and these states. What is Ms Magennis's view on that? Checks are being put in and this should improve but there is still a lot of work to do.

While we are talking about trouble spots and whatever, Commissioner Johansson spoke about the profile of people coming into the EU. She spoke about an awful lot of Georgians, which is not something people have necessarily seen. Has there been a change or an impact related to the ongoing difficulties in Ukraine?

Mr. Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

Maybe Ms Magennis can start on the third countries.

Ms Sophie Magennis

I thank Mr. Vargas Llosa and I thank Deputy Ó Murchú for that question. There is increasing engagement by EU member states and European institutions with third countries. The aim is to try to find solutions to people moving on through what are called transit countries. The Deputy mentioned Libya and we are all aware of the dire human rights situation in that country. UNHCR is working with partners to try to put measures in place so people who need protection can find it before having to arrive in Libya. When people are there, they are vulnerable to very grave human rights violations.

We are doing two things there. One is working with partners to increase what we call "protection space", meaning places where people can receive protection before moving on to places like Libya. Second, for people who are in Libya, we have a small, limited but important emergency mechanism under which refugees are transferred to Niger or Rwanda to be resettled in other countries. Last year, we transferred nearly 800 people out of Libya to those two countries. We do that because, unfortunately, the situation in Libya means we are unable to organise direct resettlement to other countries.

There are some countries that are willing to do some direct resettlement from Libya but they are very few. We need to transfer people from that country to other places where they can be resettled on. That is a sort of last-chance measure that we have but what we are trying to do is to put in place measures in order that people do not need to move onwards.

To come back to the issue of resettlement, we are very keen to try to expand the number of resettlement places for refugees globally. The admissions are very small. Mr. O’Neill mentioned the admissions under the Irish programme. Globally, admissions have been way down because of the Covid pandemic. There is some reason for optimism because the United States has indicated it is planning to really expand its resettlement programme. As the UNHCR, we are calling on EU member states this year to resettle at least 36,000 refugees. Commissioner Johansson mentioned the figures earlier today and EU member states have made some good pledges. So far, we hear they have pledged places for about 22,000 refugees to come to the EU under resettlement, which is short of the 36,000 we are looking for to come into the EU in 2022. On top of that, our High Commissioner has called on all states globally to resettle 85,000 Afghan refugees over the next five years. Of that number, we would like the European Union member states to resettle 42,500. We are looking to Ireland and all the EU member states to encourage other states to get involved and to try to not only increase their pledges, meaning a promise of a future place, but also to implement those commitments. We think those things can help to in some way to mitigate the very difficult conditions that refugees and others are facing in third countries.

Thank you. Does the Deputy have further questions?

There was a question on active leadership and what that looks like, and whether there has been an increase in regard to refugees caused by the situation in Ukraine. There was also the piece where I had cut off Mr. Vargas Llosa when he was giving his view in regard to where Frontex stood at this point in time.

I will hand over to Mr. Vargas Llosa to wrap up and to address those two specific points raised by Deputy Ó Murchú.

Mr. Gonzalo Vargas Llosa

The UNHCR does not have a magic formula because we are not a political actor. My point there was that the reason the number of forcibly displaced has been growing over the years is because the old conflicts, or most of the old conflicts, continue year after year, decade after decade, and new conflicts also begin. That is an illustration of the utter failure of the international community to exercise political leadership, diplomacy and prevention to either bring those conflicts to an end or to prevent them.

My other very obvious point is the limitations that organisations such as the UNHCR have in those circumstances. We can, of course, advocate for borders to be kept open in Pakistan and Iran, for example, we can advocate for borders to be kept open for those Afghans who reach Europe and we can advocate for protection and assistance to be given to those refugees. However, if we are ever going to see millions of Afghans going back to Afghanistan, it is not going to be the UNHCR that creates the conditions for them to go back; it is going to be a political solution.

My point was also that the resolution of those situations which create more and more potentially displaced persons is not in the that which may have influence in trying to bring about peace.

Turning to the situation in Ukraine, and to state the obvious, we are watching carefully, hour by hour, as, I am sure, is the committee, the discussions going on in the EU, as well as the involvement of the US. Linking this context to my previous point, our fervent hope of course is that diplomacy and reason will prevail. In the meantime, as the committee may be aware, the UNHCR has a presence in Ukraine. Together with the Government of Ukraine, and as part of a UN interagency effort that involves a range of other UN actors, we are of course exploring the possible scenarios that could emerge and result in the further displacement of people.

I think I was also asked to wrap up. I will do so now, unless Ms Magennis or Mr. O'Neill have anything to add.

The last thing I would like a comment on is Frontex.

Ms Sophie Magennis

Yes, the Deputy referred to Frontex and accountability. Frontex has a management board, and one of the things it would be good to see would be for that management board to exercise its governance role actively. Ireland has a seat at the table and a representative attends meetings of the management board. We certainly encourage all participants at those meetings to exercise that governance role as actively as possible. In addition, Frontex has recently hired a new fundamental rights officer. He started in his position last summer and he has been active. He has a team of fundamental rights monitors going out and monitoring the situation at Frontex's operations, including that on the border with Belarus. As a result, a combination of more work by this fundamental rights officer, some enhanced governance and continued oversight by the European Parliament and national parliaments such as the Oireachtas, would help to push things in the right direction. Frontex is an agency growing massively in power and resources and we must see a commensurate rise in the accountability mechanisms and how active they are.

I thank Ms Magennis, Mr. O'Neill and Mr. Vargas Llosa for their participation. This is not a one-off intervention on migration, but a topic on which the committee is interested in following through. We enjoyed the deliberations, and we were informed by the contributions of Mr. Vargas Llosa, Ms Magennis and Mr. O'Neill, as well as Commissioner Johansson.

I take Mr. Vargas Llosa's point regarding the countries facilitating many refugees. He mentioned Pakistan. I spent time in Jordan and Lebanon, two countries where refugees account for 25% of the respective populations. I also single out Uganda, which has 1.4 million refugees. The figure has tripled since 2016, when there were 500,000 refugees in the country.

We do not underestimate the enormity of the challenge but, on the positive side, and in the words of Commissioner Johansson this morning, we are dealing with human beings here. We have a tradition, a history and a legacy of emigration from Ireland over hundreds and thousands of years, so we know all about it. We know the benefits of emigration and the contribution Irish emigrants have made globally, and that should be no different in terms of the challenge we have ahead. Whether we meet up again in Geneva or whether there is a bit of signposting that the Commissioner can give us in regard to some sort of presence in one of the UNHCR camps, where very important work is being done, we, as a committee, are all ears.

I thank the witnesses once again for their time. We look forward to further engagement and we appreciate them being with us today.

I propose that we defer the private session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The select committee adjourned at 1.01 p.m. sine die.
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