Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Jul 1994

SECTION 1.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 4, subsection (1), line 23, to delete "Ethics in Public Office" and substitute "Disclosure of Interests".

This is probably one of the most sensible and logical amendments ever to come before a committee of the Oireachtas. It is remarkable that the word "ethics" is mentioned only in the title of the Bill. It is a long Bill and is described by the Government as crucial to its programme. It is described by the minority party in Government as all their doing, upon which their actual existence in Government depends. Yet, in its 44 pages, the only use of the word "ethics' is in the title. The Bill as initiated refers to an Act to provide for the disclosures of interests of holders of certain public offices including Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas, designated directors, etc., but not once is the word "ethics" used except in the title. That is unusual, it might even be historic. In my experience in a legislature I have never come across a similar situation where the word used in the title of the Bill is not used in the text, particularly when the Bill is so long and when so much emphasis is being put on ethics.

In the section which clarifies the meaning of words there are explanations of words such as "company"— any body corporate; "gift"— the gift of money or other property; and there are various other clarifications including that of the "Clerk of Dáil Éireann", but there is no definition of the word "ethics".

On the Second Stage I said there were many definitions that could be given of the word "ethics". I put forward my definition as "the branch of philosophy that investigates morality and, in particular, the varieties of thinking by which human conduct is guided and may be appraised. Its special concern is with the meaning and justification of utterances, about the rightness and wrongness of actions, the virtue or vice of the motives which prompt them, the praiseworthiness or blameworthiness of the agents who perform them and the goodness or badness of the consequences to which they give rise". There is no definition of "ethics" in the Bill.

That confirms my contention that this Bill has nothing to do with ethics and the reason for bringing forward this legislation has nothing to do with ethics in Government. The reason the word "ethics" is used exclusively in the title is to provide a fig leaf for Labour participation in this Government. The word "ethics" is used because of what the Tánaiste, then Deputy Spring, Leader of the Labour Party, said in the Dáil on 5 November 1992:

I believe one political party (Fianna Fáil) in this House have gone so far down the road of blindness to standards, and of blindness to the people they are supposed to represent, that it is impossible to see how anyone could support them in the future without seeing them first undergo the most radical transformation.

That is unfair.

I do not think the Deputy believes that. I believe he says that with tongue in cheek; indeed, I am convinced of it. I hope Deputy O'Keeffe will elaborate in his contribution at a later stage.

It is not constructive.

Deputy Hilliard must allow Deputy Currie make his contribution without interruption.

I do not mind the interruption.

Please allow Deputy Currie to make his contribution without interruption.

A Deputy

You want to get rid of some of the crap.

Someone has to apologise for using that word.

Deputy Currie, please deal with your amendment so that we can make progress or we will not finish by September or October but well into 1996.

If it is necessary to expose the lack of ethics in Government then we will do the nation a service if we continue into whatever year you suggest.

The word "ethics" is used as a fig leaf to cover the involvement of the Labour Party in coalition with Fianna Fáil. Deputy Spring said on 5 November it is necessary for Fianna Fáil to undergo the most radical transformation. It is clear that has not happened but in an effort to make us and the country believe that it has, the word "ethics" is blatantly inserted into the title of this Bill and does not appear in the body of the proposed legislation. As I say, it is not about ethics at all.

It is unfortunate that Committee State is being held in this committee and not in the House. It affects all Members of the House as Deputy Connolly indicated. They are involved in a direct political and personal way and would welcome the oppportunity to contribute. To that extent, I welcome the Minister's assurance that it is not intended to guillotine discussion of this Bill and I hope there will be no attempt to impose a final date for discussion of Committee Stage. There are certain matters in relation to ethics in Government that will not be clear to us until after the publication of the beef tribunal report. That report will add considerably to our understanding of ethics in Government and in public life.

Deputy, please stay with the amendment.

The beef tribunal has nothing to do with the amendment.

Perhaps I should explain why it is relevant.

The amendment deals with changing the name of the Bill and nothing else.

I am explaining to the committee why "ethics" should have been defined and why, in the context of this Bill, it is meaningless. I am saying it ought to be meaningful because it is important to consider matters such as the relationship between Ministers and outside bodies, the activities of civil servants, the relationship between Government and business, the activities of barristers or accountants and the relationship between Government and business and financial institutions. That is why I am convinced that consideration of this Bill should not be concluded before we have the report of the beef tribunal.

I am glad the Minister of State, Deputy Fitzgerald, is present for another reason. She is responsible for this so called ethics Bill. A number of questions relating to ethics arise in the context of the proposed legislation. She described herself once as Minister for the £8 billion. She took some pride in that description.

This has nothing to do with ethics in Government or with the Deputy's amendment.

Of course it has. Allow Deputy Currie to proceed.

I am in the Chair. When Deputy Boylan was in the Chair of Cavan County Council he acted as chairperson.

The Chairman should do his job properly and allow the Deputy to make his contribution.

I will do the job properly and I do not need advice from the Deputy.

If Deputy Currie has touched a sore spot that is too bad for the Chair.

I have no sore spots and neither has the Minister.

He is getting close to the bone.

The Deputy just wants to get his name on the record as usual. It is not acceptable to make a personal reference to the Minister.

I am quoting what the Minister said. She stood up and said: "I am the Minister for the £8 billion".

The Deputy's amendment deals with changing the name of the Bill.

I am explaining why ethics have nothing to do with the proposed legislation. This is a valid point. Since I will ask Members to vote that ethics have nothing to do with this proposed legislation, it is important that I explain my case fully. When a Minister describes herself as Minister for the £8 billion, which according to today's papers is to be £5 billion, it raises a question of ethics.

Structural funding has nothing to do with this amendment. Would the Deputy please stay with the amendment?

With due respect and with the highest appreciation of Cavan County Council, to make a direct comparison between chairing that meeting and chairing this committee is hardly appropriate — and that is with respect to Cavan County Council.

Of course it is a waste of time.

I am posing the question whether it is ethical——

Would the Chair keep the bootboys in this party in order? This is a serious Bill and if they are not interested in contributing, the Chairman might pull them up. The bootboys on the other side of the House are interrupting our spokesman.

I am also having trouble from political bootgirls from that side of the House. Deputy Currie without interruption.

This is similar to a Second Stage debate.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Doyle is afraid of the ethics Bill herself.

Deputy Doyle will defend herself.

I ask that a full explanation of that remark be given or that it be withdrawn. There is innuendo in relation to me and I would like Deputy O'Keeffe to state on the record what he is trying to say or withdraw it.

If the Deputy——

I would like Deputy O'Keeffe——

Deputy O'Keeffe has withdrawn it.

I asked if it was ethical to make statements, which have proved to be entirely wrong, concerning the £8 billion and the £5 billion structural funding.

Deputy Currie should stick with his amendment otherwise I will put it.

I do not believe that would be ethical but then some people seem to have difficulty understanding what that word means. Many people would consider it unethical that we are not told, for example, what expenditure will be cut as a result of the lies that were told in this House.

If Deputy Currie is not prepared to stick with his amendment I will put it to the committee.

I have concluding remarks to make which are relevant.

You should make them. On a point of information and to clear up a statement the Deputy made earlier when he said it would be much more appropriate if this Bill went to a full Committee of the Oireachtas, every Member of the Dáil has the right to attend and speak at this committee but they do not have the right to vote.

Thank you, Chairman, for making that point.

The Deputy suggested that Members did not have the right to attend. Every member of the Oireachtas has the right to attend and speak at all committees but only those who are members of the committee have the right to vote.

I did not dispute that.

You suggested this committee should be less than a closed shop.

Might I welcome the Chairman's clarification. Where are the ethics in relation to those matters to which I referred? Does the history of this Government indicate there is ethics in Government?

The amendment is in the Deputy's name.

This is a declaration of interests Bill.

I hope the Deputy will speak to the amendment.

My amendment proposes to delete the words "Ethics in Public Office" and to substitute the words "Disclosure of Interests". This is a disclosure of interests Bill and that should be the title. An attempt should not be made to fool people that it has to do with ethics. We should support this disclosure of interests Bill. Today's newspapers report on the continuing saga of what has been described in Britain as questions for cash.

I do not suggest that any Member of this House would be involved in such activities. Would an organisation, businessman, newspaper or whatever think it worthwhile to offer us money to secure information by way of a parliamentary question when the emphasis in answering questions in this House appears to be to give as little information as possible? This illustrates how important it is to keep a keen eye on a growing breed of those who have been described as parliamentary consultants. That breed originated in America and spread to Britain.

A large proportion of the membership of the British House of Commons are now described as consultants. I hope we in this House, will keep a careful eye on the growth of that breed. There should not be a rule that people should not be allowed to engage in parliamentary consultancy. We have to keep an extremely careful eye on this area. Full disclosure should be made and proper guidelines laid down. I note in Britain it has been said that while those activities may be contrary to the spirit of the law, they are not contrary to the letter of it. Erskine May has been quoted to reinforce the point that cash for questions should not be tolerated, but it is a practice British politicians will seek to control rather than wipe out.

That emphasises how important it is for us to spend the necessary time to ensure these matters and interpretations are clear and that we know what our interpretations are, what we are trying to do and what we are imposing on ourselves for the future. That is another reason the guillotine should not be imposed. It is also a good reason for us to be honest and less hypocritical and to delete the reference to ethics and substitute the words "Disclosure of Interests". I have pleasure in proposing that amendment.

I presume the debate is on the amendment proposing the substitution of the words "Disclosure of Interests" for the "Ethics in Public Office" and not on the section.

The debate is on amendment No. 1.

I will have a great deal more to say on that when we deal with the section. Deputy Currie is naive if he believes we do not know what this Bill is about. I do not need a lecture from him on it. I have been here long enough to know about this. I do not have a problem with the words "Disclosure of Interests" or "Ethics in Public Office". Deputy Currie spoke in a tone that would seem to imply that we do not know what is happening. I know what is happening.

The rest of us do not.

Members, including Deputy Doyle, know what is happening and it would be foolish to say otherwise. I have never attempted to use the privilege of the House in a derogatory manner and I do not intend to do so now or in the future. There is a perception that Members across the political divide have not been keeping good standards. I have not seen any Members of this House become millionaires. I have seen Members defeated and in poor circumstances; some resigned from lucrative employment to serve the people. If there is a perception among the public and the media that our standards may not have been the highest, in every walk of life there is a small minority who have not behaved in a manner we would consider appropriate. I do not like the word "ethics". I do not know if it is in order to speak on this now. If I get the opportunity on section 1, I will have more to say on that because some Members not long elected to this House were implying that other Members were not behaving in a satisfactory manner. I and many others would not like to be put in that category by anybody here or elsewhere.

We all know what the provisions in this Bill are about and fully understand them — I have no doubt about that — but I shall have a lot to say on various sections. I have no problem with the words "ethics" or "disclosure of interests". The words "disclosure of interests" might be more appropriate to the short title. "Ethics" is a word which could be used to imply "standards". All such words are open to debate.

Deputy Currie has a point. On Second Stage when I recommended that interests to be declared should be extended from shares and property to membership of organisations the Minister said that, in essence, the provisions of this Bill required politicians to declare those interests which could influence their decisions. I was thinking of Members who might be members of organisations dealing with, say, social issues such as International Planned Parenthood — or organisations whose express purpose or raison d’�tre was to change the ethos and culture of society. I felt that Members should be required to declare such interests. Indeed, one could advance the same argument in respect of business organisations. I do not know if that idea has been taken on board or whether the Minister has tabled amendments to cover such membership.

We have tabled such an amendment.

If we are to travel down that road — and I support it — then the short title should remain as drafted in section 1. If the Minister is not accepting such amendments, if we are adhering to the Bill as drafted dealing with property, shares and so on, the mover of the amendment has a point. We must decide in what direction we want to travel. If we adhere to the Bill as drafted, then this amendment has merit and is well founded.

As a Declaration of Interests Bill I have little difficulty with it, nor do I believe any Member would have difficulty with it. While we may all have certain small amendments, in terms of its general thrust I have no difficulty with a Declaration of Interests Bill.

I strongly object to the Bill's short title of "Ethics in Public Office Bill". First, I do not think one can legislate for ethics anywhere. Second, there is an implication in the title that there has been unethical behaviour on the part of Members of both Houses for some time past that needs straightening out by a new Minister. Virtually on her first day in the House the Minister of State implied that we all needed a lash of this Bill to straighten us out, contending that she was coming to bring ethics back into the Houses of Parliament. I resent that implication. I particularly resent it from someone on their first day in the House obviously making it about those Members who had been elected here before her, because such implication could not be attributed to anyone else. As a Declaration of Interests Bill I ask that we all agree to its main thrust — we can talk about details afterwards — because it is only a Declaration of Interests Bill we need, which is in order, and with whose main thrust most of us have no difficulty.

I would like to know how anyone can legislate for ethics. I would like to know how, on the passing of this Bill, even if the time is not changed, it will make one whit of difference to ethics in public office. No one should stand for public office or become part of the public life if we do not have a code which could be described generally as ethical in terms of our behaviour with one another, with the public generally and our general demeanour in public life.

I do not need to be told by this Government, by a Labour Minister, by a new Member of this House, that legislation is needed to ensure that I behave ethically because I am a public representative. I resent it; I resent the implication and I actually think it makes no sense because, even if there was a need to sort out our ethics as public officeholders, a bit of paper will not do it. It is not the sort of behaviour legislation can sort out; rather it is the type of behaviour the electorate needs to sort out and/or weed out.

If any officeholder or Member of either House behaves unethically, the public should know about it and the ballot box should return a result which would give the electorate the type of ethical public representatives they desire. I resent the title of this Bill. I resent the implication in the title; I resent it from the Labour Party, I resent it from this Government. However, I fully support a Declaration of Interests Bill which I consider this to be. In the interests of having all parties agree unanimously to what could be otherwise reasonable legislation, I urge that the title be amended in accordance with the amendment moved by our spokesperson, Deputy Currie.

I am totally opposed to the Bill. In fact, its title annoys me. It annoys me intensely that anybody should come in here and say they will set a standard for me in public life. I resent it especially emanating from the present Government, more especially its junior partners, the Labour Party. They above all, are the people who, as soon as they got their claws on power, abused their privilege by appointing programme managers and others from among their families and close friends — if you like — outlaws. I will set my standard in my public and private life. I will be prepared to be judged on those standards, as I have been since 1974.

The Chairman referred in passing to my chairmanship of Cavan County Council — I know it was not a derogatory reference or meant as such — but on nine occasions I was elected to Cavan County Council. At one stage the present Government endeavoured to deny Members of the Oireachtas the right to continue their membership of local authorities. Was there something there of which they were afraid? Were they afraid their close neighbours would know something about them the wider public did not and that they might lose their seats? There is no better yardstick by which people can be judged than by putting their hat in the ring, being judged in the privacy of the ballot box on their activities in public life and the manner in which they serve the people who elect them.

I support Deputy Currie in his amendment to delete "Ethics in Public Office" and substitute "Disclosure of Interests". Although to a certain extent I resent it, I am prepared to go along with it if it will serve to improve people's perception of public representatives. The idea to which Deputy Connolly referred — that we are all on the gravy train, that membership of Houses of the Oireachtas amounts to a closely-knit shop and that we are doing well out of it — is totally wrong. Many Members left these Houses a lot poorer, having served the public, than they have been. Even those Members in my constituency who gave up lucrative businesses in the public interest were not thanked for so doing; nonetheless they got satisfaction from knowing they were doing something for the public. They were prepared to make that sacrifice. We do not get thanks but we get satisfaction from the work we undertake on behalf of our constituents.

If people want to pry into my private life, into what I own or do not own, I have no difficulty with it. Nonetheless, I believe it is my business and, at the end of the day, the ballot box is the only judgment that should be passed. If the public elect representatives or a Government that is not suitable, that is their loss, their mistake. Indeed, the public get the Government they deserve because they get the Government they elect. If the electorate do not take sufficient interest in the various names on a ballot paper on election day but rather vote on a whim, that is a dangerous practice. However, recent elections have demonstrated that the electorate are not so slow. I predict the next election will clearly demonstrate that they are wide awake, that we will see major changes and that they will not repeat the mistakes made on the last occasion.

Sitting suspended at 1 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.

I support the thrust of this amendment and reasons given by Deputy Connolly and others for agreeing with it. It seems we are concerned here with registration of interests, with the sole exception of section 15 which deals with gifts to officeholders. It is all about statements of interest and with gifts it is more a stating of interest rather than trying to improve people's ethics. In that context we should rename it the Disclosure of Interests Bill because that will be the sole effect of this Bill.

What worries me is that it is being suggested to people who will never read this Bill that there is being established a mechanism to purify politics and that contained in these few pages there are ten commandments which will transform us all into ethical people and impose on us standards which we do not at present impose on ourselves. That is fundamentally misleading.

The title of this Bill is a bit high flown and overblown and does not represent fairly its contents. It tends to create in the public's mind the false impression that there is something in the Bill which will clean up Irish politics. Is that accidental? I do not think it is. I think this title was chosen precisely for that purpose, to give the impression that it is something more than it actually is, that it will achieve something which it cannot achieve and that there is a new rule book which will render impossible former suspected abuses of public office.

I welcome and have always supported the concept of a register of interests, but I do not believe this will go further than to simply let people be aware of potential conflicts of interest in a very small area. It does not deal with, say, conflicts of interest based on ideology for on membership of organisations. Deputy Ahern mentioned that for somebody in this House who supports a particular line it might be much more significant that the public know that he or she is a member of, say, a militantly pro-life organisation or a militantly pro-choice — as they call themselves — organisation. It would be probably much more interesting to the electorate to know that than to know that they own a chemist shop or that they have a house set out in flats 40 miles from where they live.

In terms of how people operate in Leinster House, it would probably be much more revealing to know that they are members, for instance, of a preservation organisation, that they support blood sports or are members of the Irish Coursing Club or whatever, than to know that they have particular trade or own a house which is set out in flats, that they are landlords, tenants or whatever. These things are irrelevant.

Mention was made about Deputies being impoverished by their participation in politics, and I agree with Deputy Connolly in that regard. The vast majority of people make major sacrifices by participating in politics, and that applies right across the board. Curiously it applies not only to Members of the House who are considered well off or badly off; it applies also to successful business people who come into it. They probably give up the opportunity to become more wealthy by entering politics. Not just Deputies who portray themselves as being poor as church mice in public will be affected by this. The earning potential of people who have substantial sources of income outside politics is reduced by participating in politics rather than the reverse.

On Second Stage the Minister of State and the Tánaiste referred to what they considered to be a conflict of interest or unethical behaviour of some kind and accused me of double-jobbing. Curiously, I cannot find any basis for the Minister of State's or the Tánaiste's statements in the House on the last occasion or for her reference to it again today. When I first stood for Dáil Éireann in Dublin South-East I was asked by the Sunday Tribune, which at the time was edited by Vincent Browne, if I intended to be a full-time TD. I replied “certainly not”. A party colleague asked if I could not have been slightly more fudgy in my answer because it would not do me any good. I have never believed that I ought to be a full-time politician. The Minister of State may recall that in 1987, when I was first elected to this House, her father-in-law was Taoiseach and he was not a full-time politician when in Opposition. Neither was Deputy Ruairí Quinn who was an architect nor Deputy Gerard Brady who was an optician. None of the four TDs elected in 1987 when I was elected to the Dáil for the first time——

They have changed that.

They have and they now have a restaurateur and a vegetable shop proprietor.

It seems that there is scarcely a service that the constituents of Dublin South-East would require that is not available to them.

Other than a negotiator.

Except a full-time public representative.

Thank God for Senator Joe Doyle and Deputy Frances Fitzgerald who represent them.

I am a full-time politician and I have no other interests outside politics.

The Deputy makes the point that he is a full-time politician; I am not and I have never pretended to be. I am in the company of people like Deputy Quinn and Deputy Penrose who, like me, is a barrister and it seems the Minister of State has never castigated him in public for double-jobbing. Neither has she castigated the Attorney General whom I sat beside in court yesterday when he was representing a private client, nor attacked Deputy Moosajee Bhamjee for carrying on his psychiatric practise nor Deputy Mervyn Taylor who before she became a Member of the House was carrying on ——

The Deputy is speaking to the section rather than to the amendment.

I am making a very simple point that the Minister of State's first remark today was a slightly nasty little remark. She pointed out that I might be elsewhere doing legal work. I make no secret of my double interest as a Deputy in this House and as somebody who carries on a profession but the obloquy heaped on me by the Minister of State and the Tánaiste is totally one sided. They do not look to their own party; to Deputy Penrose or my name-sake, Deputy Derek McDowell and say "give up your practise". They never said to Deputy David Andrews when he practised beside me in the Four Courts for many years that he should be elsewhere.

You never said anything to anybody.

The difference is that you are absent from this House.

Could we try to confine remarks to the amendment?

All these people contribute to this House and all bring from their various backgrounds, be it Deputy Bhamjee or Deputy Quinn or myself, an experience which is of vital interest and not something which shrivelled away and disappeared years ago.

I like the word "experience".

Deputy Connolly has his own interests as well and they enrich his contributions to this House and do not take away from them.

Thank you.

This is the first opportunity I have had to contribute to the debate on the disclosure of interests. I have a public interest as a barrister; nobody is in the dark about that or in any way ignorant of my interests. I resent somebody in the position of the Tánaiste, who was a barrister in his time and gave up, or the Minister of State, suggesting that there is something wrong with having two occupations and being a public representative. I am not getting very angry about it because what the Tánaiste had to say was pathetic and he lowered himself in most right thinking people's minds. What Deputies Bhamjee, Quinn, Penrose and Derek McDowell and the Attorney General can do properly should not be the subject of criticism. I am much more concerned to deal with the real issues. It is unfortunate the Minister of State started off the proceedings with what she thinks is a barbed comment; it is not and I am not rising to the bait but if she intends to fire arrows across this Chamber or any other chamber she should remember that she is, by implication, impugning the integrity of people who she apparently holds in higher regard than me — her colleagues in the Labour Party who do precisely the same as me.

In the interests of facilitating the speedy passage of the Bill I will allow the Minister of State to reply at this stage.

As this Bill provides for more than the disclosure of interests it is prefectly proper. In making a disclosure people will not just make a statement about their interests, they will also make a statement that the public interest comes first and accept the need for the highest ethical standards in the profession of public representative. The other people required to make a disclosure under the Bill will make important statements about the principles underlying public service and the conduct of public businness will be made more transparent.

Apart from disclosure of interests the Bill deals with the issue of gifts and appointments made by Ministers; it amends the Prevention of Corruption Acts which are outdated in many respects and will prohibit public servants acting when there is a conflict of interest. Most importantly, we envisage a development role for the commission in the general area of ethics in public office, through the promulgation of guidelines and advice and through the annual and special reports provided for in section 26. We see this developmental role as central in promoting the highest standards in public life.

It is important to look at what is contained in the Bill and to focus on the area of extra statutory procedure and codes of practice not only at Government level but throughout the public sector. The Bill, particularly through the commission, will give a powerful impetus to the development and promulgation of such practices and codes. The net result will be the creation of a corpus of law and practice which addresses the ethical dimension in its broadest sense. The title of the Bill is right and proper and I will not accept Deputy Currie's amendment.

Will the Minister of State give the full title of the Bill which deals with corruption?

The Prevention of Corruption Acts, 1989 to 1916.

I have not heard of it and it has not been implemented in my time. If it were perhaps we would not have to have an Ethics in Public Office Bill.

It is interesting to note that under the Prevention of Corruption Acts, 1889 to 1916 the maximum penalty is £500. We are updating that figure. If we reach the sections of the Bill dealing with that we can discuss it in more detail.

The Members of this House, past and present, have had very high standards compared with other democracies in Europe and elsewhere.

(Interruptions.)

The electorate will always decide on my role. They have decided many times and, thank God, they have been very kind to me. I was never afraid to disclose what I have.

The Bill should provide for disclosure of only the relevant person's interests. I have no problem about disclosing my interests but I might have difficulty in disclosing the interests of my spouse, son or daughter. A father and son may not always agree. The son might think the father old fashioned and too cautious and might not disclose the name of a relevant company. If it transpires there was a beneficial interest, the public could say that the father was aware of it, and nothing would clear him because of the public's perception. This word "perception" is the buzz word. Will the Minister, before we conclude the debate, have another look at this Bill? Many Members have no problem about disclosing their interests but we would like to come to an arrangement that is satisfactory to all concerned.

I agree with the Minister that the Bill has much merit. I am surprised that she is resisting this amendment. There seems to be broad approval in the committee for the Bill as a disclosure of interests Bill. As far as I can see there is probably a majority on the committee in support of the re-titling of the Bill for the reasons set out ad nauseam and which I will not repeat. I suspect if the House were in full session there would be a majority for this change of title. As a registration on disclosure of interests Bill it has much merit and, like the Minister, I would like to move on to discuss aspects of that. Will she, therefore, consider the request made to reconsider the titling? The title "Ethics in Public Office" was probably conceived in the excitement of the Government being put together. Perhaps now recollected in more tranquility, it can be recognised that it is probably an aspiration that cannot be dealt with merely by legislation.

The Minister preceded me as chairperson of a local authority where it has been the practice for a long time to declare one's interests. Many decisions made by that local authority had a great deal more impact in conferring benefit on persons outside of the council than the decisions we make in Dáil Éireann. Purchasing influence from Opposition Members of Dáil Éireann would not seem to be very profitable.

We should move on to discuss the essence of the Bill. Will the Minister accept that what we have here is a disclosure of interests Bill apart from the section on gifts which, incidentally, is interesting in so far as one does not have to make such a declaration if the donor is a friend? Deputy Connolly is fascinated by the words "perception", "standards" and "ethics" and he has passed them all for us. The word "friend" has featured a good deal in politics recently. It was stoutly proclaimed on a number of occasions that certain people were friends and on one famous occasion that someone was a social friend, not a business friend and so on. I do not know whether it is possible for us to address that question but with the exception of that section it is a disclosure of interests Bill. We should call it what it is and get on with the discussion.

I merely asked the Minister a question some minutes ago about other legislation. I do not object to the principles of the Bill but to the narrowness of its remit. Why is everybody in receipt of payment from public funds not included in this legislation? Why should it be specifically aimed at politicians of the Oireachtas, senior civil servants and people associated with them? It seems that we are merely satisfying an element of the public who would be absolutely delighted to delve into the private lives of politicians. Many people in the public service are not included who should be included. I have no doubt that people who have something to hide will have already hidden it before this Bill becomes law. Those who have substantial assets will have salted them away in the Cayman Islands, the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands or somewhere else. Can the Minister tell us what power she has to look into accounts people may have opened outside of this State?

I am glad to have the support of so many Members of the committee for this amendment, including Deputies Connolly and Noel Ahern. I am surprised at the intransigence of the Minister on it. I hope even at this stage, she will reconsider her attitude and accede to the request not only from me but from other Members of the committee from different parties that the word "ethics" be dropped. As I pointed out it is quite a small matter because ethics is only mentioned once in a Bill that runs to thousands of words and extends over 44 pages. It is quite a simple matter to delete it.

I will give another reason for consideration of deletion of "ethics" in this context. It appears that the principle of this Bill, as a declaration of interests Bill, is unanimously accepted by the committee. I have heard some Members voice reservations about certain sections and the declaration of certain interests but no one has said: "I am opposed to the principle of this Bill". This Bill for each of us politically and personally is more important than any other Bill I can think of. All of us are involved in declaring our interests and all of us have to be mindful of this. It is very important that everybody, therefore, should be in favour of the principle of the Bill. If the Minister were to accept this amendment, which seeks to delete "Ethics in Public Office" and substitute "Disclosure of Interests" the Bill would have the widespread support of the committee. I do not understand her intransigence except on one issue which I am not going to labour- I use the word "labour" advisedly. The only reason I can see for the Minister's intransigence is the point I made earlier on a wider political agenda for the Labour Party in Government. In the interest of getting a unanimous view from this committee in support of a declaration of interests Bill I ask that the Minister accept this amendment.

Deputy Currie has made the point I intended making. From the point of view of getting constructive debate off on a proper footing — we are all basically agreed on the thrust of the Bill — surely we should accept the amendment in view of the legitimate reservations expressed by Deputies Connolly, Noel Ahern and other members of the partnership Government on the title of the Bill. I am sure the Minister will agree that a mistitled Bill is not a very ethical way to go about something that goes to the very core of what the Labour Party purports to be about. After all of the promises, the expectations and all the hype this Bill only deals with financial considerations. Apart from the code of practice and the unfleshed details of the Commission, this Bill deals with financial considerations which is only a tiny segment of a much larger jigsaw that needs to be tackled. It is only a fraction of what people understood this Bill would be about. Rather than blindly and bull-headedly foisting a grandiose extravagant title on something that does not deserve it, the Minister should accept the well argued and well intentioned amendment of Deputy Currie and let us get the debate off on a proper footing.

One cannot legislate for ethics in public office. A Bill such as this can be passed making various regulations as to what Members of the Oireachtas and others ought to do, but it is impossible to deal with this area through legislation. The alternative is to accept Deputy Currie's amendment which seems to have widespread support and would appear to have the unanimous support of the Members who have contributed so far on the Fianna Fáil side of Government.

I do not like the words "disclosure of interests" in Deputy Currie's amendment, because that indicates some people have been trying to hide. I would prefer words such as "registration of interests" or "declaration of interests". What the Minister is doing by using this title is putting something in the shop window and when one goes in to look for the article it is not inside. It is a very important Bill and we should not misname it. So far as the public are concerned it is important that the title of a Bill reflects accurately what the Bill is saying. It would be a reflection on all of us if this Bill were to go through indicating something in its title which it does not cover. Most people would object to that. There is unanimous support for the contents of the Bill with, perhaps, minor refinements here and there, but as far as the title is concerned the Minister would do a favour to herself, this committee and everyone else if she would say, at this stage, that between now and Report Stage she will consider the title and the arguments advanced.

Has the Minister anything to say to the further points raised?

I have nothing further to add to my earlier very comprehensive statement.

In view of that obduracy and intransigence I will push this amendment to a vote.

Will the Minister look at this matter before Report Stage? It affects every Member of the Oireachtas and future Members.

I was in the process of putting the question.

I am sorry if I torpedoed you but that was not my reason for doing it. I was looking for a compromise, to see whether we could bring about a satisfactory arrangement. I am not asking for the deletion of "ethics", I am asking the Minister to examine this matter between now and Report Stage and to come back to us on it.

Amendment put.
The Select Committee divided: Tá, 10; Níl, 18.

Boylan, Andrew,

Higgins, Jim,

Connaughton, Paul,

McDowell, Michael,

Currie, Austin,

McGrath, Paul,

Deasy, Austin,

Nealon, Ted,

Doyle, Avril,

Rabbitte, Pat.

Níl

Ahern, Michael,

Killeen, Tony,

Ahern, Noel,

Martin, Micheál,

Broughan, Tommy,

Ó Cuív, Eamon,

Connolly, Ger,

O'Keeffe, Ned,

Ellis, John,

Ryan, Eoin,

Fitzgerald, Eithne,

Shortall, Róisín,

Hilliard, Colm,

Smith, Brendan,

Kenneally, Brendan,

Upton, Pat,

Kenny, Seán,

Walsh Eamon.

Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 4, subsection (2) (a) (i), line 26, delete "appoints" and substitute "appoint".

This is a drafting amendment.

Is the Government always referred to in the plural?

I am advised that this is the appropriate grammar in this case.

I thought the Constitution said that it met as a single collective authority. I see, it is a partnership Government.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 5, subsection (2), lines 15 to 29, to delete paragraph (c).

I seek clarification on what appears to be an unusual provision under which the House may by resolution decide that any given part of the Bill — the list given is really the essence of the Bill and has to do with the registration of interests, office-holders, etc. — shall cease to be in operation on and from such day as may be specified in that resolution. It appears that under the Bill a majority of the House will have the power to vote itself out of the remit of the Bill if it thinks fit.

I do not know whether there is a constitutional requirement for the insertion of this provision but it seems very unusual. As we have just seen, even though the majority of the committee manifestly agreed with Deputy Currie's amendment it was defeated. One has seen crises in the House on issues covered in this Bill and similar issues. Under this provision will the Government of the day be able to introduce a resolution that any given section does not apply and carry it purely by weight of numbers? In addition, section 1 (2) (b) (i) states: "If either House by resolution so declares Part II...shall cease to be in operation ...". If the Seanad so decides then Part II will not come into effect in respect of joint committees of both Houses. Will the Minister give the rationale behind the decision to include this provision in the legislation? We are enacting legislation which will require the disclosure of interests by Members of Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann but if Members of Dáil Éireann or Seanad Éireann do not like it they can, by a majority, decree by a resolution of the House that it does not apply to them. That seems odd and I would like to hear the Minister's explanation for it.

There is a technical reason for it. Article 15.10 of the Constitution provides that each House shall make its own rules and standing orders, with power to attach penalties for their infringement. Sections 1 (2) (b) and (c) are two sides of the same coin in that the House will bring into effect the rules in relation to itself by way of a resolution of the House. Under Article 15.10 each House is constitutionally entitled to regulate its own affairs. Each House is, therefore, entitled to declare by resolution that certain provisions of the Bill do not refer to it, thereby ensuring conformity with Article 15.10 of the Constitution. The provision does not refer to the entire Bill, it simply refers to those areas where the House regulates its own affairs, and they are specifically listed in the section — for example, "Part II in so far as it relates to that House and its Members and Clerk and its committees and their members and clerks". It is a continuation of the principle that each House shall regulate its own affairs and is included for technical reasons, and not for any ulterior motive.

As I understand it, the Minister is saying there is a constitutional imperative here. What would happen if a Government confronted by an awkward issue decided to resort to this section and put a motion through the House? If the Government of the day decide not to apply Part II or Part V or Part VI but to instead frame a resolution which is carried by a majority, then the relevant sections will not apply.

These sections refer only to the Members of the House and no resolution could undo the provisions as they relate to the public service or gifts to officeholders. They relate only to the areas in which the House regulates its own affairs. The Bill is founded on the principle that we should let in the light and by so doing show that the affairs of the House are open and above board. Any Government which acts in the way suggested would rightly be subject to censure by the people at the next election. Ultimately the Members of the House are answerable to the people. The Government can repeal legislation at any stage and this technical provision will ensure that the legislation conforms with Article 15.10 of the Constitution. If the House is entitled to make its own regulations it follows logically that it should be entitled to annul them. There is some doubt as to whether this provision is necessary in terms of Article 15.10 but we do not want any constitutional queries to hang over the Bill. We are as anxious as the Deputy obviously is that this legislation is enacted and that all the safeguards are in place.

I agree that under Article 15.10 of the Constitution each House should determine its own affairs but under section 3 the Minister is given powers to vary the amounts provided in the Second Schedule for registerable interests of £2,000 in paragraph (a) or £500 in paragraph (b).

The House must approve of those changes.

The House must approve them but nonetheless it appears that the Minister may make a regulation providing for a figure of £500 or £1,000. This requires the approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas because if either House annuls it, it is annulled completely.

Under section 3 (5) (a) the Minister may, by regulation, vary, having regard to any change in the value of money occurring after the passing of this Act, any monetary amount. This is purely an inflation proofing section.

I accept that and I do not want to get involved in details.

The laws of inflation apply equally to money values for Senators as they do to money values for Members of the Dáil. It would be somewhat unusual if different figures were to be applied in each case. Section 3 (5) (c) provides the following:

Where regulations under this subsection are proposed to be made, a draft of the regulations shall be laid before each House and the regulations shall not to be made until a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by each House.

That is the precise point I am making. The Minister will be allowed to determine by regulation the value of penalties to which the House operates and the House will not have to approve it in advance. Rather the House can disapprove it but it will be without prejudice to the generality of something done under it. It is unconstitutional to allow a Minister to change the values set out in a registerable interest of the Dáil by way of a statutory instrument even subject to the right of revocation. A Minister is not entitled to do that. It is not a ministerial function under the Constitution to determine whether there will or will not be an increase in line with inflation. That is a matter entirely for the House.

I am satisfied that this provision under section 3 conforms with the Constitution. It is a common-sense provision.

I am not suggesting that it is not a common-sense provision.

The figures under the Prevention of Corruption Acts remain——

That is irrelevant. I am talking about something here——

The Deputy should allow the Minister to finish. He will have ample opportunity to make his point.

It is a common-sense provision which allows for the updating of amounts having regard to the value of money and the regulation shall not be made until a resolution approving the draft has been passed by each House. That gives each House ample opportunity to regulate its affairs and conforms with Article 15.10 of the Constitution. The Bill was approved by the Attorney General and no constitutional doubt was raised on this point. I am satisfied it conforms with the Constitution.

I do not think the Minister understands me.

I understand the Deputy well.

I am making the point that regardless of the Attorney General's approval, section 3 purports to allow a Minister to vary the amount by which a Member must register his or her interests under the Second Schedule. No constitutional power gives a Minister the right to vary an amount in this way. It is for the House to decide whether it wants to vary the amount upwards or allow inflation take its toll.

The House will approve regulations made in the name of the Minister.

It will not. If section 3 (6) were drafted in the other form no such thing would——

Section 3 (5) (c) states:

Where regulations under this subsection are proposed to be made, a draft of the regulations shall be laid before each House and the regulations shall not be made until a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by each House.

I appreciate that and I agree with the Minister.

The Minister said this is a constitutional imperative, but that there is some doubt about the necessity to have it inserted. She asserted that it will not be resorted to for an ulterior motive. If that is the constitutional advice available to her, I will withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

We now come to amendment No. 4 in the name of Deputy McDowell. Amendment No. 4 is consequential on amendment No. 39 and amendment No. 63 is related. It is proposed that we take amendments Nos. 4, 39 and 63 together by agreement.

In regard to the relevancy of amendments Nos. 4, 39 and 63, Members should note that while the rules of debate on Second Stage permit the raising of such matters as might be relevant for inclusion in the Bill, the scope of amendmetns on Committeee Stage is confined by Standing Order 99 to those which are relevant to the provisions of the Bill on Second Stage. In so far as amendments Nos. 4 and 39 seek to have certain beneficial interests of office holders notified to the commission and published in Iris Oifigiúil, and in so far as amendment No. 63 confers a particular reporting function on the commission where it already has a general reporting function under section 26 (1), these amendments are considered relevant and may be discussed. However, the wider and less strictly related matter of the scheme of naturalisation of investment which has already been discussed at length in the Dáil will not be referred to in general or initial terms now as Standing Orders governing Committee Stage do not permit it. I accept that relevancy is open to question and as this is an enabling Bill I have given the benefit of the doubt to the Deputies concerned. I trust Members will appreciate the latitude the Chair has afforded them by allowing the amendments to be debated but that my rulings will be adhered to and the debate restricted to those aspects of the amendment relevant to the provisions of this Bill.

On a point of information, what amendments are we about to debate?

We are taking amendments No. 4 to section 1. Amendment No. 4 is consequential on amendment No. 39 and No. 63 is related.

What will happen if the view of the committee is that amendment No. 4 stands on its merits and does not relate to amendment No. 63?

What is its relationiship to No. 63?

The advice available to me is that amendments Nos. 63, 39 and 4 deal with a similar matter and should be taken together.

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 5, between lines 32 and 33, to insert the following subsection:

"(4) The Irish Nationality and Citizenship Acts, 1956 to 1994, and section 15 may be cited together as the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Acts, 1956 to 1994.".

I cannot move Deputy Currie's amendment.

It is proposed to take amendments Nos. 4, 39 and 63 together by agreeement.

We cannot debate amendment No. 63 now?

We can debate it, Deputy Currie cannot move it.

Will someone please tell me how amendment No. 63 is related to amendments Nos. 4 and 39?

The matters are related.

Apart from the political aim of trying to discourage debate on a particular topic, what is the connection between amendment No. 63 and the other amendments?

If the Deputy wishes, I will allow his amendment to be taken separately, but he cannot refer to it when we debate amendments Nos. 4 and 39. It might be in his interest to allow the three to be taken together.

I would if I could see the connection, apart from the subject. Deputy McDowell tabled amendment No. 39. I do not agree they should be taken together and Deputy McDowell does not see any connection between them.

Amendments Nos. 4 and 39 are connected.

I have no problem in agreeing to leave aside amendment No. 63 until it is reached in the normal way, but the substance of that amendment cannot be discussed with amendments Nos. 4 and 39.

I am prepared to discuss my amendment when we come to it.

Is it agreed that amendment Nos. 4 and 39 be discussed together by agreement? Agreed.

These two amendments are connected since the purpose of amendment No. 4 is to make section 15 — which amendment No. 39 proposes to insert in the Bill — citable with the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Acts, 1956 to 1994. Amendment No. 39 proposes to insert after section 14 a new section providing that where an office holder proposes to perform a function of his or her office to which this section applies, he or she shall, in addition to complying with the provisions of section 14, comply with the requirements set out in paragraphs (a) and (b). Subsection (2) provides that the section shall apply to the granting of a certification of naturalisation under the provisions of section 16 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1956, as amended by section 5 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1986. Subsection (3) provides that unless the declaration of interests provisions set out in subsections (1) (a) (b) are put in place, the certification of naturalisation should not have effect. While not rehearsing all the controversial matters with which this measure is designed to deal, it is worth pointing out that under existing law it is open to the Minister for Justice to grant a certificate of naturalisation at his or her absolute discretion on a number of statutory grounds, one of which is Irish associations. The phrase "Irish associations" was inserted in the 1956 Act after considerable debate in which the Attorney General participated. It was suggested that it might allow a business partner of an Irish person to become an Irish citizen purely because that partner had a business connection with Ireland. It is relevant to note that the then Minister for Justice and the Attorney General ridiculed such a suggestion and said that it had nothing to do with cases of business investments in Ireland and that, accordingly, the term "Irish association" had a much narrower meaning which was connected with areas of close association with Ireland not covered by the other statutory criteria for granting naturalisation.

Times have changed and business connections with Ireland, despite the assurances of the Attorney General in 1955 to Dáil Éireann as to what the Bill would actually do, have now become the basis on which people are granted Irish naturalisation. Like many other countries we have a business migration scheme. Business migration schemes anywhere in the world are first about granting citizenship to somebody who proposes to become a resident in the country in question and, second, they are concerned with people who propose to bring with them substantial capital to invest.

Any country that values its citizenship any more than a Panamanian of Liberian flag of convenience, does not permit its citizenship to be granted to people merely because they lend a considerable sum of money to a company experiencing difficulties. Until recently one would have thought that was not the case here, and, without getting bogged down in the detail of recent controversies, it is essential that we know whether Irish citizenship, which ensures full rights to participate in Dáil elections, rights under our Constitution and the right to be elected as a Member of the Dáil, is available to a person in circumstances where the only thing he has done is to lend £1 million or more to an Irish business man. That is a matter on which fundamental ethical difficulties arise and it is in that context this amendment is tabled because it has been found, unfortunately, that the discretion given to the Minister for Justice and the statutory interpretation by the former Attorney General, when the provision on Irish associations was put in place, is not an adequate safeguard or is not designed to maintain standards. Unfortunately, we are now in a very peculiar position whereby the business migration scheme, to which the Chair referred when he warned me to be relevant, effectively has now been suspended and is no longer in operation even in meritorious cases because of a political snag whereby the Minister is refusing to approve any of the applications and is requiring, curiously enough, the Tánaiste's approbation of such applications. I do not know why that is the case, but it is very clear there is an ethical dimension to this. There is a fundamental question as to whether in that context conflicts of interest could arise.

In what context can a conflict of interest arise, which would have to be declared and what will we do about a declaration of interest in these circumstances? The most obvious and the most gross conflict of interest would arise if a Minister, for instance, proposed to allow somebody to become an Irish citizen in return for an investment in his family firm or a loan to a close relative. A conflict of interest would arise also if, as happened recently, one member of the Government benefited through his family company, of which he was a 41 per cent shareholder, by an investment or a loan made by a person who sought citizenship from the Minister for Justice. In those circumstances, we must look to the Bill to see whether there is an adequate safeguard. Looking at the original text of the Bill and, in particular, section 14, as originally proposed, I was astonished to find that it would have no effect in those circumstances. I pointed this out to the Minister on a radio programme and I now see that she has tendered an amendment to deal with this glaring loophole.

Even if these loopholes are closed as proposed by the Minister, it is still not sufficient because all that would have been required in the case of the investment in the Taoiseach's company to comply with the Minister's proposed safeguards, would have been for the Deputy and Minister for Justice, Deputy Pádraig Flynn, to write a letter to the Taoiseach and to the commission saying that he proposed to grant citizenship to X or Y and that it would involve a very significant benefit for a member of the Cabinet. That is the only safeguard we are putting in place. It is proposed now by way of safeguard that such notification must be to the Taoiseach which, in the case to which I referred would be a little redundant, unless one accepts his statements that he knew nothing about the investment until a later stage.

If the only action one must take is to notify the Taoiseach and the commission, can that be regarded as an adequate safeguard? Is it adequate in the context of granting citizenship to a third person in respect of a loan, dressed up as an investment, which is supposed to benefit another member of the Cabinet? Is it adequate that the only safeguard put in place is that the commission is notified? If so, that raises the question as to what the commission should do with the notification. This matter goes to the heart of what is wrong with the Bill.

The commission might receive a complaint from, say, Deputy Michael McDowell, that there was a conflict of interest that should be investigated in a case such as that involving C & D Foods and the Masris. The commission would then ask if there was compliance with section 14 of this Act. If the Taoiseach has been notified of the proposal by the Minister, the Commission might decide that there is nothing to investigate. The outcome of Deputy McDowell's complaint concerning the granting of citizenship to two Arabs, not residing in Ireland, in respect of a £1.1 million loan to the Taoiseach's company of which he is a 41 per cent shareholder, will be a short reply for the commission that it has investigated the matter, it is fully satisfied that every requirement of the Ethics in Public Office Bill has been complied with and that he should have no further interest in the matter. Two letters will have been written but there will be no investigation, nor can the commission publicise the fact that Deputy McDowell brought the matter before it or that it was amazed at the decision. It is not entitled to reveal any of those facts to the public and it is not entitled to call for an inquiry. It is entitled only to ascertain whether there was compliance with the notification procedure. There is no further right of the public, the press, the media or the complainant to ask whether such action was proper. One does not even have the vast benefit of an investigation by the Tánaiste, the outcome of which is that everything is all right because he has looked at the file. One gets a clean bill of health on the basis of two letters being written. I fundamentally object to that because it has nothing to do with upholding decent standards in public office.

The public wants to know whether it was proper that such a transaction took place. To return to the case to which I referred, if I had not heard about it, I obviously could not complain to the commission. Take a hypothetical case. If a civil servant in the Department of Justice was worried about someone lending £1 million to a business owned by a member of the Cabinet and told the commission that there was a conflict of interest involved and asked it to do something, the commission would check if it was notified and if the Taoiseach was notified. If so, that would be the end of the matter. They cannot criticise what happened. They can merely say that in the case referred to they are satisfied that Ethics in Public Office Bill, 1994 was fully complied with. That is not a safeguard. The commission is turned into a moral whitewash agency in such circumstances.

Far from exposing a dubious decision it is rendered uninvestigable by virtue of giving two letters to two people. The Minister said she envisaged a developmental role for the commission but the commission is not in a position to say to someone who has complied with the letter of the law that they must do something different. The recommendatory powers and the guidelines function is only in relation to the application of the Act and it is not the commission's function to investigate what are, on the face of them, abuses of public office or to say it was unjustifiable for Minister McDowell to award his brother a £1 million contract. The commission cannot say I was wrong to do so. All I must do is notify the Taoiseach and the commission.

I would have more faith in the process if, as in my proposed text of section 14, the notification to the commission was also laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas. In those circumstances there would be public scrutiny of the behaviour in question. What we are dealing with here is a secret process. Bearing in mind the example of recent history in this matter there must be an improvement.

The provisions of the proposed section 15 would require the commission to be furnished with a statement as to whether an office holder had any interest in the matter. I do not wish to anticipate the debate on my amendment to section 14 but the proposed amendment No. 34 would require the commission to cause any statement furnished under section 14 to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas not later than 14 days after it had been furnished to the commission. In those circumstances there would be transparency and any Deputy or journalist could ask what was the decision that Minister McDowell made which benefited his brother to the tune of £1 million and could ask if it was justified. What the Minister has been cornered by her partners in Government into proposing is that the only scrutiny will be a technical one. The commission is not empowered to exercise any value judgment or draw to the attention of the public what it considers to be an abuse of ministerial discretion. That is my objection to it. In the context of granting citizenship to people in exchange for a loan I suggest the public have a right to know. All these matters should be made known publicly. I am trying to be as neutral as I can and not use the debate unfairly to cast aspersions on others but there is a fundamental question of standards and accountability at the heart of this. The mechanism proposed by the Minister will not do anything to counter that.

I do not agree with the amendment. The scheme has been suspended for the time being. Foreigners have invested privately in companies which the IDA supported. The Deputy's amendment seeks to establish the length of time during which the person resided in Ireland during the previous two years, the grounds on which the certificate was granted and whether the certificate was granted by reason of the Irish associations of the person and wholly or partly in consideration of any investment. The person must disclose the full content of the investment and they will be reluctant to do so because they will show their hand. For business reasons they may not be prepared to do that.

I do not say the Deputy's amendment was not put down in good faith but no foreigner would invest in a company if that amendment was accepted. He would need to be insane before he would do so. The person may not want to give their address. There are many reasons for that, including security ones. They have a right not to do so.

I hold no brief for anyone but we badly need bona fides investment from wherever it comes in industry, agriculture and other sectors. No foreign investor would agree to invest money under the terms of the Deputy's amendment. Foreign companies have operated well here generally and we are grateful to them because they have created thousands of jobs.

Some have failed. If amendment No. 39 is included it will have serious consequences because it will deter investment under the scheme for the reasons I outlined. Regarding the length of time during which people resided here, those people may have been travelling to and from Ireland in respect of business with companies here. The particulars of the investment to be published in Iris Oifigiúilmay be confidential to the company and those with an interest in it. There are many private companies here and there is confidentiality in regard to business transactions. Full particulars of an investment will be sought if that amendment is included. Are we going down the road of requiring details of the type of security provided, the type and duration of the loan granted, a special interest rate, if any, and the likely dividends? This is a technical area. Will foreign investors enter that type of scenario? From my knowledge of the business arena, I would say that a requirement to submit such investment details would close the door on that type of investment. The Minister and the Minister for Justice will have no problems in this area as there will be no foreign investment applications.

This is the first of a number of amendments that address the distinction that should be drawn between the role of Members of the House and Government Ministers. There are certain requirements imposed on Members of the House to declare their interests and to require that those declarations be open to public scrutiny. There are provisions for the register to be updated from time to time and to be inspected by journalists or whomsoever. I do not object to that. Those provisions may be beneficial. As the Minister said, they are the norm in other democracies and in local authorities. It is interesting that similar requirements do not apply to members of the Executive who make the decisions in our democracy. They have the influence and power to direct decisions and cause them to be made.

I want to avoid a rehash of the comments on the passport affair but the requirement that the Minister making the decision should advise the Taoiseach is daft having regard to the recent case that has come to light. That is not the way to address the problem. I am not sure that I fully understand the Minister's amendment No. 33 as a replacement for section 14. I am not sure it is the type of improvement I thought it would be in respect of the excision of section 14 because one of the phrases in it that runs through the Bill is "actual knowledge".

In the case of the passport affair to which Deputy McDowell adverted it raises risibility about what constitutes actual knowledge. The Taoiseach insists to this day that although he is the majority shareholder in the company concerned he did not have knowledge of the investment. I have not had the opportunity to look at the requirements of company law since the Taoiseach said in reply to a parliamentary question I tabled that he holds 41 per cent of the shares, but I believe there is a requirement in company law that if one holds that percentage of shares one must be informed of an investment. I am not sure about that but I would like to check it. However, when the Taoiseach was asked about whether the present regulations for members of Cabinet were observed in terms of the requirement to bring any material interests they had to the attention of other members he said everybody knew of his involvement. I do not know how that can be provided for in law or how it fits in with actual knowledge.

If we enact legislation like this, whatever about being able to pre-empt cases we cannot foresee in the future, we should at least be dedicated to closing the loopholes exposed as a result of cases in the past. I do not believe this legislation, even as amended by the Minister, will serve that purpose. It is important to address Deputy Connolly's attack on this, because he would seem to put the proposer of the amendment, Deputy McDowell, into the unusual role of being an opponent of foreign investment. He said the Minister need not be concerned about this in future, that if this were to be enacted there would not be foreign investment.

Two simple points can be made about that. There is a special tax regime here and other incentives to attract foreign investment, which has resulted in a great deal more success than we have secured in building up indigenous industry. The reference here is to a specific scheme, the business migration scheme, which I suggest many Members of the House, not to mention members of the public, did not know existed. When one sees a document such as that recently circulated by the Department of Enterprise and Employment and the number of defects in the scheme, and as there is now a committee headed by Ministers to close loopholes in it, it does not hold up to say that to seek to secure that position in this Bill is somehow anti-foreign investment. I do not believe that professions investigating themselves is a great idea and I include Deputy McDowell's profession in that.

Will it be left that the Taoiseach must advise the chairman of the commission, and that is the end of the story? It is doubtful if historians in 30 years time will have access to these papers, but who would want to know about such historical information? We do not know what decisions have been made, if any; it appears to let it hang in mid air. It reminds me of some of the issues, in my short time in the House, that have been referred to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and which have not exactly proceeded, in all cases, to logical and definitive conclusions.

I support the amendment. It is important that we try to address happenings at least within our knowledge and this amendment seeks to do that. Of course it is contingent on our enacting a different section 14 later. In so far as it addresses section 1 at present — and I understand from what is in front of us that section 15 would be the correct description if amendment No. 39 is accepted — that would seek to impose this requirement on officeholders. It is important for us to draw this distinction again.

We cannot repeat this too often: who in their right mind would approach Opposition Members of this House in terms of purchasing influence in one important area or another? The only people to whom such approaches are made — and it often comes under the legitimate description of lobbying — are members of the Executive. That is where the decisions are made that are likely to confer a benefit or not, as the case may be. To merely require that there be a procedure whereby one Minister must advise the Taoiseach or, if it be the Taoiseach himself, he must advise the chairman of the commission, which is the end of the process, contributes nothing to the Minister's let in the light aspiration, to transparency, openness or whatever. That merely requires someone to drop a note to the Taoiseach saying: in case it ever arises I think you should know the following and then proceed merrily to make the decision. If we enact this legislation we might as well be serious about it, which is more incumbent on the Minister, as the sponsor of the legislation, than the rest of us. If we seek to deal with this, let us deal with it seriously.

We all want this procedure to be open and above board but, in our rush and endeavour to be open about it, we may kill the scheme, as Deputy Connolly said. Irish business people constantly tell us that what they want are fixed low interest rates over a number of years and — again judging by various reports — to maintain control of their companies. The scheme does exactly that, gives Irish business money over five years at a fixed rate, which is what they want, and also ensures that such companies remain in Irish hands. Deputy Rabbitte said there are various tax incentive schemes here to attract foreign investment; very often the criticism being voiced is that they come in for a few years and then leave, when the money the IDA and our taxpayers will have invested disappears.

I did not quite say that, but Deputy Ryan may not be aware that the Department of Enterprise and Employment says that these kinds of loans for passports ought not be tolerated; investment, yes, under transparent conditions, but not cheap loans. That is the view of the Department of Enterprise and Employment, not mine.

May I finish the point? My opinion is that if money is given to a company over a period, we are giving them exactly what they want and that also ensures control is maintained in Irish hands; in other words, they are not selling off part of their business. Some people say we should sell a share of the business. One million pounds invested into many Irish businesses will amount to a majority shareholding, in other words, the Irish business person seeking investment in his company will lose his controlling interest. Not many people will do that. In my view, to give them this loan over five years makes sense. This scheme is used successfully in Canada, Australia and other countries. I am told that in Canada it has been used to great benefit for their economy.

We must remember that many of our young people are going to these countries seeking work. As Deputy Connolly so rightly said, we need investment in this country. I am not saying there should be underhand transactions; they should be transparent. Part of what Deputy McDowell is saying to an investor, who wants to come here to get an Irish passport or whatever, is, come into the country, reside here for two years and then we will consider it, he is not giving such investors a guarantee. Rather the investor must prove that he has resided in Ireland for the proceeding two years. In the real world I do not believe anybody will do that. We may want them to do it, we may like it, but they are not going to do it.

On the furnishing of full particulars of the investment in question, every day the IDA invests our money in foreign companies coming here but do not get the full particulars. I gather that one of the regulations now is that the IDA must approve such investments. Therefore, the IDA is fulfilling its role vis-�-visinvestment in foreign companies coming in, and they are doing it here as well. If the IDA is sanctioning such investment, if the IDA recommendation that a certain investment and/or company is eligible or warrants this type of investment, I do not understand why it should be out in the open.

I do not think Deputy McDowell is against the scheme; certainly his party was not against it when in Government, in fact they were considerable supporters of it. I would be afraid that in our rush to do what Deputy McDowell is endeavouring we would kill the scheme totally. I know that in England recently they brought in the same scheme on the basis of an investment of £750,000. What does a prospective investor there have to do? I gather one does not even have to put it into a manufacturing company; all one has to do is put it into Government bonds. Where is the risk there? I do not agree with that. I believe that indigenous — Irish — manufacturing industry badly needs investment; we are constantly told this. Every industrialist will tell you that as will every business report. This is a scheme whose provisions can and should be availed of to benefit our economy and reduce our unemployment. Although Deputy McDowell may not be endeavouring to destroy it, nonetheless if he insists on some of those regulations they will kill the scheme totally.

It will be finished.

In relation to the points raised by Deputies Connolly and Eoin Ryan let us take one example. In Britain they afford residence to somebody who invests £750,000 in Government Treasury bonds, but they do not give citizenship. Residence can be revoked at any stage by the Home Secretary. Citizenship is something for life. We are actually making people citizens of our country and, by virtue of the Maastricht Treaty, citizens of the European Union in exchange for loans to Irish companies.

So is Canada.

Let us be clear about Canada; I do not know about Australia. If I go to Canada and invest over there the public is entitled to know in what I invested and why I was given Canadian citizenship, whereas in Ireland all that appears is my name on a page in Iris Oifigiúil, six months after the event, without any explanation of why I was made an Irish citizen. That is the first point.

Take the Masris and the discrimination in their favour as an example. They were given the right to stand for membership of Dáil Éireann, to vote in Irish elections and have access to our courts. What have they done? We do not yet know. Although the Taoiseach has referred us to his family firm, they will not give us the details. By all accounts what was given was what is termed a soft loan. As Deputy Rabbitte said, the Department of Enterprise and Employment has criticised very strongly the notion that a soft loan — which is repaid, say, over five years — leaves somebody an Irish citizen thereafter even though they have got their money back and no longer have any connection with this country.

Deputy Eoin Ryan made the point that the IDA has a role in vetting these investments. They do not; there is no statutory requirement that they should do so and, in the particular case to which I referred, they had absolutely no role whatever. It was never referred to them.

But they will.

That is great to hear. I do not want to win the lottery twice; once will do for me. I am amused by people who say we are going to cure all these defects in our system now that they have been availed of.

They will end.

In a case of this kind, Deputy Ryan says a loan is better than an investment. A loan is obviously welcome from the point of view of the receiving Irish company. The only thing more welcome than a loan would be an outright gift. A soft loan, to the extent that it is soft, is a gift because the people involved effectively are saying they will take 5 per cent interest even though they can get 10 per cent in the bank. This amendment deals with the position where somebody gives a company a subsidised loan in exchange for Irish citizenship. It proposes that if a Minister does that, in circumstances where he or another member of the Cabinet benefits from it, the public should know about it. What does the Minister offer as a safeguard in exchange? It is self-evident the public should know about that.

It is ridiculous that the particulars of the case we are talking about only came to light by accident. The Minister said that can happen every day of the week. Every member of the Cabinet can benefit by a loan to his or her family company, and that can go on ad infinitum as long as two things are done: they write a letter to the Taoiseach saying what they are doing and they inform the commission of what they are doing. That is not a safeguard. It means the same abuse, as I call it, continues. I do not see why the granting of Irish citizenship in respect of a loan to a Cabinet member’s company should not be declared. If I participate in a debate in Dáil Éireann or a committee of Dáil Éireann on a Bill — for example, the Bill we are dealing with today — in which I have an interest, under section 7 of this Bill I am required to make a statement of that interest to the chairman. The amazing thing is that statement is to be published under section 7 (5). The people are entitled to know that when I participated in the debate in this committee I had an ulterior motive.

On the C & D Foods investment, the Taoiseach, by comparison, has never been asked——

You cannot deal with a case from the past——

Take any example where a Minister gets money for his or her family firm in exchange for citizenship granted by another member of the Cabinet, no publication, no revelation is required but I am obliged in this debate and in every other proceeding in the House to convey in public that I have a conflict of interest — I have done so on occasion — but such obligation is not required of a member of the Executive who can make a decision which greatly enriches them and which most people would say was completely wrong. They would say he gave that contract to his brother, why was it not put out for tender? In those circumstances we never find out what happened until, as Deputy Rabbitte said, 30 years later when these documents are exhumed from some archive.

Where does the fairness lie in circumstances where I am asked to expose my interest in any piffling Dáil debate or committee session in which a conflict of interest arises but a member of the Cabinet can very substantially enrich his family or himself and there is absolutely no public transparency?

I said recently in a statement to the newspapers, and I reiterate today, that this is what is rotten at the heart of this Bill. It provides that if Opposition Deputies and Government backbenchers are debating dry cleaning and they own a dry cleaning shop, they must stand up and tell the Clerk of the Dáil of the committee that they or their spouse own a dry cleaning shop, and that will be published afterwards. We must make such a declaration of interest to participate in a debate or to vote in the Dáil.

Under the terms of the Deputy's amendment there will no longer be a problem.

I do not accept that.

You may not accept it but that will be the case.

I will deal with that in a second. Deputy Ryan has said that in Canada the scheme operates very successfully, that everybody is entitled to know what a person did and why, if he came in with Canadian $1 million he was granted citizenship. What is wrong with publicly telling people that X, Y and Z from whatever foreign country came to Ireland and got Irish citizenship because he put £1 million into Michael McDowell Limited or Arthur Guinness Limited? Why should the people not know?

That is not providing full particulars of the investment in question. That is completely different. That is just naming the company invested and I would have no problem with that. Full particulars of the investment in question is what Deputy McDowell is looking for from C & D Foods.

I do not want to go into the affairs of any private company.

We are not getting into the affairs of any private company. I have made that clear and it has been made clear to Deputy McDowell on at least one or two occasions.

I accept that.

I was giving it as an example.

That is what I was doing.

I know the Progressive Democrats support this scheme because they supported it in Government. Some of Deputy McDowell's proposals would kill the scheme completely.

I share that view. Under Deputy McDowell's amendment I could not anticipate anybody taking part in the scheme, and in that sense there will be no longer a problem.

Item 1 in sub-paragraph (b) deals with the name of the person, and that is already the law under the 1956 Act. The ordinary address of the person is also required under the law. That has to be stated under the 1956 Act and is stated in Iris Oifigiúil, with one exception and that was the C & D investment where the ordinary address was incomplete for some reason. On the statement of the length or lengths of time during which the person has resided in Ireland, that merely proposes that the Minister be obliged to inquire of the person whether he has ever resided in this counry or whether he is a total stranger. The public is entitled to know that the man or woman has resided in Ireland for 33 weeks in the last two years, for one week or has never set foot in this country and he is getting citizenship despiite that fact. There is nothing terrible about that.

The provision relating to the grounds upon which citizenship is given does not exist under present law. We do not know from the lists provided in Iris Oifigiúilwhether a person got citizenship because they married an Irish citizen or that a doctor who has worked 20 years in St. Vincent’s Hospital was finally given citizenhip because he married Irish woman and they had children. One cannot differentiate in law between that situation and the fact that somebody offered a soft loan. There is nothing wrong with saying it was a business migration scheme investment.

The last proposals deals with particulars of the investment. All I would have envisaged in a particular case — I will not mention the company's name again — is that the investment involved was a five year loan at 5 per cent without security and without redeemable preference shares and the name of the business in which the investment was made. That would be full particulars. I see nothing wrong with that. That is the basis on which citizenship is available, people who want citizenship and are open about the investment will admit they invested £1 million in a particular company on specific terms. The public will then know about it.

That is very serious because it gives full particulars of the investment in the company. The company concerned, which I shall not name might not want to say what type of loan was given. That was a business transaction between the company and the investor concerned; it was a strictly private investment and the terms of the investment were strictly private.

I take your point.

Before a company would give me £1 million it would require security and it may not want, for security or other reasons, to disclose the security required as this would be to the advantage of its competitors. That is the kernal of the matter. That is a non-runner.

On the question of whether the scheme is suitable, most people agree that there is a need for more information on the way it will work and that the public should be aware of it. The problem is that if one goes too far, to the point where everyone knows everything about what is going on, there will be no point having such a scheme.

The purpose of this scheme should be to enable people to transact confidential business. Under subsection (5), however, everything will have to be revealed. Business people are frightened when politicians and officials of the State say that information has to be revealed because they fear their business propositions and opportunities will be taken by somebody else. It would be better to scrap the scheme rather than expose everything to the public. It would be farcical to have a scheme that would not work. The public would not thank us if we had a scheme which was not used. If that is the case, what is the point in having it?

This scheme is not the answer. I do not have it but it is not to disclose everything to the public. While checks and controls are necessary, the question is how do we satisfy everyone? This provision goes too far.

This Bill deals with potential conflicts of interest in a general sense, not with the details of individual schemes or policy areas where a conflict would arise. As a matter of general principle, sections 14 and 26, with the changes I am making, lay down the specific procedures to be followed if any Minister contemplates exercising their functions, including around the Cabinet table, in such a way that this would be to their benefit and that of their family or another Minister. These procedures will be overseen by the independent commission which will have power under section 26 to report to the Dáil on any issue if it sees fit. I do not accept Deputy McDowell's assertion that this will lead us into a cul de sac.

The terms of the business migration scheme have been examined in the light of public concerns and any changes considered appropriate will be made. The Minister for Justice has already informed the Dáil that the operation of the scheme will be made transparent and that the scheme will be put on a statutory footing. As the operation of the scheme is a matter for the Minister for Justice, Deputies will have an opportunity to discuss the scheme in detail when she brings forward her proposals in the near future.

In this Bill I intend to provide a general framework; I do not intend to discuss the details of the passport scheme or any other scheme administered by the Minister for Enterprise and Employment or the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications. In this Bill we are dealing effectively with the general principles that should govern any decision. Deputies will have an opportunity to discuss the details of the business migration scheme when the Minister for Justice brings forward her proposals in the near future.

Is the Minister of State seriously contending that under section 26 this commission will be allowed to table a critical report on a particular transaction if it is properly acquainted of the transaction?

Under section 26 the commission "may prepare such reports for the Minister as it considers appropriate"; it will have a free hand in this regard. Under my amendment the commission will be able to seek permission, where it considers it appropriate, to lay any special reports before the House.

All I can say is God bless the Minister of State's innocence because there is absolutely no provision to allow the commission in a particular case in respect of which a conflict of interest is reported to express value judgments or to bring to the attention of the House that there was full compliance with the Bill. If the Minister of State is indicating that that is implicit in section 26 let us see an amendment that states that the commission would have the right to evaluate decisions notified to it and to say that although there was notification, it considered that the decision was highly improper. I would be interested in such an amendment because it would imply that this commission would be able to look at a particular decision and say there was no tendering process, that Minister McDowell gave the contract to his own brother. If that can be done fine, but under section 26, as it presently stands, there is no earthly basis on which the commission would be given the right to express value judgments on the decisions it was investigating. That is the crucial issue.

We will debate section 26 in due course. Section 26 (1) (b) reads: the commission "may prepare such other reports for the Minister as it considers appropriate". Amendment No. 68 reads:

The Commission shall furnish a copy of a report under subsection (1) (b) to the Minister and the Minister may, if he or she considers it apparopriate to do so, and shall, if the Commission so requests, cause a copy thereof to be laid before each House.".

On what matters can it report?

"As it considers appropriate".

It must relate to its functions. What are its functions?

The commission will be independent in the exercise of its functions.

What are its functions?

If the commission wishes to report on any matter, it may prepare such reports as it considers appropriate.

Will the Minister of State accept amendments to that end?

The commission will be entitled to publish any statement it receives. As the Deputy is aware, Ministers are answerable to the Taoiseach who appoints them and to the House at Question Time. The commission will have a role in relation to this. If the public considers that any Minister has acted inappropriately in any matter, they are entitled to dismiss that Minister at the next election. If the Taoiseach considers that any Minister has acted inappropriately and has him in the loop——

Mr. M. McDonnell

He can dismiss him immediately.

If a Minister is contemplating doing something which the Taoiseach considers is wrong, is not in accordance with Government procedural instructions or is guilty of unethical behaviour, it is open to him to remove him. This has occurred in the past.

Sections 14 and 26, with my amendments, deal with the principle. The details of the particular scheme mentioned by members are a matter for the Minister for Justice who has indicated that she will deal with them in the near future. I would suggest that if you wish to discuss the details of the particular scheme they be discussed with the Minister for Justice.

I did not see amendment No. 68 and, in fairness, I think it does cover it. If the commission tells the Minister to lay it before the House I presume that must be done. It is a very good amendment.

I agree it is a good amendment. However, there is one minor problem. I want to see in black and white a statement on what matters the commission can report. On ordinary legal interpretation principles the commission is not given a right to make value judgments on decisions that are brought before it. The crucial question is whether the commission has the right to say a Minister informed the commission of a decision he made on a particular day to award a contract to a company in which a Minister had a 41 per cent interest. If that happens and that is notified to the public only if the commission so requires, the public do not know about it if the commission does not so require. If the commission does decide to incorporate such a notice in its report, on what grounds is it to do it? Is it because it is in the public interest to know there was such a transaction between two Ministers? Is that what the Minister is suggesting?

When we get to section 26 we will have an opportunity to discuss my amendments and the amendments the Deputy and any other Member of the committee have tabled to that section. I am anxious that we finish section 1 today and I would be glad if we could——

With respect, Members of the Committee have the right to go as far as they wish and to speak for as long as they like. The Minister or the Chair does not have the right to prevent Members from contributing. We have to be fair about that. We would all love to finish the whole lot today if it were possible, but it is not.

What I want to get at is whether it is a function of this commission, as the Minister envisages it and as the people appointed to it interpret it, to bring it to the attention of the Oireachtas if it finds that one Minister has done something in respect of a member of his family or of another Minister which raises eyebrows. If that is what the Minister means, let us see it in black and white that it is a function of this commission to bring to the attention of the public via the Oireachtas instances of behaviour which it considers in substance improper, even though notified. If that is what the Minister is talking about, fine. However, it is not implicit in the section and merely saying that it can report on anything it likes does not actually give it the function of saying that although a particular transaction was notified in accordance with the requirement of the Act, the commission believes it was so improper and so wrong that it is bringing it to the public's attention. If that is the function of this commission let us say it and start this debate on this Bill on the basis that the commission is envisaged as a watchdog which not only inquires into whether there was technical compliance with the notification procedures but which says in particular cases a transaction so stinks that it is bringing it to the public's attention. That is a crucial difference and if that is the function of the commission I am amazed it is not written anywhere in its terms of reference that one of its functions is to bring to the public's attention things which, in its opinion although properly notified ought nonetheless never to have happened.

As an ordinary backbencher I have to make statements, which are published, about my interests if I vote or contribute to a debate. However, this process, unless the commission brings these matters to the attention of the public, will be entirely secret and, as Deputy Rabbitte says, we will hear about it 30 years later. I want an assurance now — because it does colour my attitude to the rest of the amendments to this Bill — that it is Government policy that this commission, in addition to deciding whether there is a literal compliance with the technical notification procedures of the Act, also has as one of its major functions bringing to the attention of the public acts which though properly notified deserve publicity because of their nature, because they are dubious and any necessary change will be made to the Bill to bring that about. If the Minister tells me that is how she understands this Bill and that this is what this commission is there to do, then let us put down amendments to make sure that in five years time, unlike what happened in regard to the Citizenship and Nationality Act, the Members of this commission know that that was their function.

My understanding of the meaning of section 26 (1) (b) is that the commission may prepare such other reports for Ministers as it considers appropriate and that gives it the freedom to comment in the manner suggested by Deputy McDowell. The amendment I am tabling to section 26 will allow the commission, if it considers it appropriate to do so, to lay any matter before the House. That is what I understand the words of the amendment to mean and that is what they are intended to mean. If there is a lack of clarity in relation to the words, let us look at that when we come to debate section 26 (1). We are debating section 1 at the moment. We will look at the actual wording to ensure that it means what I think it means and what I intend it to mean — that the commission shall independently be able to prepare any such reports as it considers appropriate. That is fairly simple English. I am not a legal eagle like Deputy McDowell but it is intended in a very simple way to mean exactly what it says in plain English.

Section 26 (2) provides that:

(1) The Commission—

(a) shall, not later than 6 months after the end of each year, prepare a report on its activities in that year, and

(b) may prepare such other reports for the Minister as it considers appropriate.

(2) (a) The Commission shall furnish a copy of a report. . .

Deputy McDowell may not understand the business arena that well, although I accept he is very good in the legal field and would be excellent in the Four Courts where I would have no doubt about his ability but the field of business is another matter. In regard to what he requires, much work has been done by the Industrial Development Authority over many years and we, as Members of the Dáil, could not get access to some of the private information shared between that organisation and the companies and county development teams with which it deals because much of it was confidential and had to be kept so from an industrial point of view. I accepted that and I have no reservations about it. I have a good knowledge of the business arena and if, as put down in that amendment, this information has to be put up on the table, I have no doubt there will be no problems because the number of applications will be nil.

As it is now 4.30 p.m. we will adjourn until next Wednesday at 6 p.m. It is proposed to sit Wednesday from 6 p.m. to 10 p.m. and on Thursday from 6 p.m. to 9 p.m.

The Select Committee adjourned at 4.30 p.m. until 6 p.m. on Wednesday, 20 July 1994.

Barr
Roinn