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Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs díospóireacht -
Thursday, 27 Feb 1997

SECTION 12.

I move amendment No. 28:

In page 10, subsection (2)(b), line 30, after "copy of" to insert "a summary of".

The amendment will require a summary of a proposed litter management plan to be available free of charge rather than the entire plan. Some of the plans are very large, voluminous documents with maps and photographs and it would be more efficient if summaries were available.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 29:

In page 10, subsection (3), line 39, after "may" to insert "invite some of those groups which made written submissions to make an oral presentation, or to discuss their proposals, and then,".

The proposals in the Bill are good. There should be litter management plans and certain procedures for making, amending or replacing such plans. However, people should be involved to the greatest extent possible. As the Minister said last week, co-operation will not be secured unless people are educated and encouraged to think positively in terms of their involvement in management plans and cleaning up litter. Otherwise, the plans will be viewed as something local authorities have imposed on people.

Worthy suggestions may be made, such as the positive remarks of the Fingal tidy towns groups in relation to the Bill and its aims. I was invited to a function in Letterkenny and the group there is equally committed to the legislation. The possibility should exist for local authorities to invite groups who go to the trouble of making written submissions on a waste management plan, to make oral submissions. This would ensure that they feel their proposals are being considered.

I support the amendment. Much of what we are trying to achieve is being undertaken at present by the voluntary sector and people motivated by a sense of civic duty and pride. This aspect will be ignored at our peril and efforts to incorporate their role will be rewarded.

There is much merit in the amendment. I considered this aspect in discussions with my officials and my only hesitation is that I do not want to prolong the drawing up process. There must be finality in terms of written submissions and then asking people to make oral presentations. Local authorities should have an explicit right to request oral submissions if they consider there is merit in such a move, for example, if a particularly good idea contained in a submission needs elaboration. If the Deputy is agreeable, I will come back on Report Stage with an explicit provision in that regard.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 12, as amended, agreed to.
Section 13 agreed to.
SECTION 14.
Question proposed: "That section 14 stand part of the Bill."

Section 14 deals with the immunity of local authorities in terms of court cases relating to litter. I made the point on Second Stage that much of the consciousness which has encouraged people to alter their behaviour in relation to litter has been brought about by wildlife programmes which show the effects of litter on the marine environment and landfill sites. An example is the rings from beer cans which affect fish, birds and animals.

It could be the case that an animal, either wild or domestic, is a victim of litter. Is this aspect covered by the section? Local authorities must have a certain responsibility and I am not trying to get people off the hook, literally or metaphorically. If more attention was focused on this issue, it would result in a deeper consciousness of the damaging effects of various items. It is not a cosmetic issue because it has direct implications for wildlife and domestic animals. Litter has been found in turtles and whales all over the world and people's consciousness would be raised if this issue was highlighted. The section might have implications in that regard.

Acting Chairman

I understand the proposal in the section but I have little faith in local authorities implementing laws which the Oireachtas enacts. An example is the Derelict Sites Act. Nothing was done in Dublin city about derelict sites until the Minister moved on urban renewal. There are still many derelict sites and the people who are supposed to enforce the law are sometimes the worst offenders. There is a huge litter problem in Dublin but most dustbin men only work three hours a day. They do their day's work in three hours and then they are gone but the streets are filthy. The same local authorities will be exculpated by the section. Does the Minister wish to comment on that?

Deputy Sargent's point is more concerned with wildlife protection legislation rather than this one. In terms of the Chairman's point, we are putting in a much stronger body of law in this Bill. We have improved it with amendments adopted on the last occasion the Committee met. For example, we put a requirement on local authorities not only to sweep, but also to wash down, the pavements. That is nearer the European norm. We will, of course, have to be mindful of how law is enforced but our job, as legislators, is to make the law as strong as we can. I do not think we can work on the premise that the law will not be enforced, we will have to insist that the law is carried out as we enact it. Dublin Corporation itself is required to draw up a major plan on this and I know they are working on such a plan.

Every local authority can do better in terms of addressing the issue of waste management generally and litter in particular. That is why I have contacted every local authority chairperson and manager in the country to hear my view — and I think it is a view reflected in the Oireachtas as a whole — that this is a major environmental issue which needs to be addressed. I am heartened by the fact that virtually every local authority has taken some action against litter. I have said, in reply to Dáil questions this week, that changing people's attitude to litter is not going to happen instantly, irrespective of what law we enact. The process is going to be a slow but inexorable one. Deputies on all sides agree that there must be two parts to it; an exhortation and education side and an enforcement and "big stick" side.

This section is a standard provision to indemnify local authorities against action; it would leave local authorities and their employees very vulnerable if this standard form of indemnity was not put in.

Chairman

Dublin Corporation only started fixing footpaths because people were suing them. Public representatives were making representations about footpaths for years but nothing was done until people began to sue the Corporation. The danger is that by giving this overall protection against suit, the local authorities have a way out. That is my fear.

Are private householders indemnified against any injuries that may occur because of litter outside their premises or because of their failure to keep the particular area for which they have responsibility clean?

Yes. I am informed — the point might be of interest to the Chairman in relation to the comments he made -that an additional £1.2 million is to be expended by Dublin Corporation on street cleaning this year and before the end of the year, there will be an additional 50 street cleaners. I am concerned to hear that existing street cleaners are only working three hours a day but that is something we can look into on another occasion.

Chairman

The City Manager will say that the reason the streets are so dirty is that when people are off work due to illness, he has to give priority to refuse collection. The bin collection service has been an excellent and reliable one throughout the years. On closer examination, one finds that the bin men get into work at 8 a.m., get their work done and by 11 a.m. they will have gone. Meanwhile, the streets are filthy. I am not condemning their action; as a former transport manager in Guinness I can say we worked on the basis of getting the lorries back to base as quickly as possible. However, we have to do something about the dirt of the streets.

I believe that until local authorities are required to adopt an ISO 9,000 standard, we will continue to have this sloppy practice. Unless local authorities set and maintain standards of excellence on behalf of all of their operations, they cannot demand equal standards from residents groups, communities etc. That is what needs to be done in this country. It is a fact, and I have seen it in my own locality in particular, that industry has complied with the most stringent demands of the Environmental Protection Agency and in many cases have exceeded those demands. Until we put equally stringent demands on local authorities, we will continue to have this practice.

Last Friday, on MacCurtain St. in Cork, which is a very short street, there were three skips along the side of the street. When I phoned to ask how long they had been there, I was told they had been there for a week or more. That sort of thing should not be happening. The Minister cannot be expected to hold the stick over anybody. The local authorities will have to look to themselves first; if pig and poultry farms can attain high standards I fail to understand why local authorities cannot do likewise and are not required to do so.

Chairman

In relation to that point, you can walk off a filthy street into a spotless shopping centre. The same people are walking on the streets as are going into shopping centres but the management of the shopping centres keep them clean. The streets are not kept clean. Perhaps there are problems with people's habits but it seems to be possible to control these within shopping centres but not on public streets.

I understand the Chairman's frustration. It is with great reluctance that I see this section having any relevance at all. It would probably be more effective not to insert the section at all because local authorities would then have to get down to the job without any indemnification. If the Minister is going to keep this section, can I ask that there would be some quid pro quo by way of regulations? There is a global aspect to this particularly in view of the fact that Ireland is an island nation. The United States Environment Protection Agency has done a considerable amount of research on plastics in the oceans around Ireland and other countries and has found that it is a common, though not malicious, practice in Ireland to release thousands of heliumfilled balloons into the air by way of celebration on festive occasions. Nobody is trying to spoil the fun but I want to point out to the Minister that this practice is, in effect, filling a very wide area with a dangerous type of litter and is particularly dangerous for a marine environment. Perhaps the Minister for the Marine will have a view on that given that he is trying to protect fisheries stocks. This is one of the implications which I feel the Minister should take into account if this section is to be allowed. Other farsighted and important educational and regulatory measures must be introduced in order that people would not abuse their environment through ignorance.

So much of the work we are doing is overlapping. I published the Local Government Reform Programme which is a very comprehensive set of proposals which are accepted by Government. If one was to pick out one word which runs through the programme and is at its heart, it would be quality. We are talking about quality initiatives here in terms of ensuring that best practice pertains to local authorities and their management of all services. That is the reform I want to bring about in local government and there is no reason why local authorities could not be, and in some cases already are, run as well as the best service industry.

I have exhorted local authorities not to think of themselves as bureaucracies but as service industries with customers whom they must serve. Unfortunately, in many cases local authorities have a monopoly on services and that puts an additional burden on them. Some local authorities have already applied for, and received, ISO standardisation for some of their services. Wexford County Council, my own local authority, was the first to be awarded an ISO standard for motor tax collection. There is no reason why every local authority should not follow suit. That would be the direction I would like things to take. Best practice and best international service standards should also be sought in the area of litter.

Deputy Sargent spoke about the release of helium-filled balloons into the air. I am in total agreement with him. We have to take action in such cases. The idea is to put in place a framework of requirements to create and carry out a management plan which will be monitored. Under the overlap with the programme for local government reform, part of the equalisation fund created will finance initiatives and best practice. I want to move away from the situation which obtained during my term of office as Minister for the Environment and for many years previously, where those who receive additional funding are the hospital cases which often have the worst practices. I want to award best practice.

There is a general tradition in administration in Ireland that the more money an organisation loses, the greater assistance it must receive. That is not sustainable into the future. The winds of change which swept the semi-State sector and brought dramatic improvements to companies such as Bord na Móna are beginning to affect the workings of central Government and must affect local government in the same way. Some people are addressing that issue while some are not. However, it will be a major task to bring about that change and I am encouraged by the enthusiasm I detect in its favour.

Question put and agreed to.
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