On behalf of the select committee, I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Cullen, and his officials. The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the Revised Estimates falling within the remit of the Office of Public Works. Our discussion of Vote 44 - Flood Relief - allows for an opening statement by the Minister of State and the Opposition spokespersons, followed by a question and answer session. The discussion will conclude no later than 10.30 a.m. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Estimates for Public Services, 2002.
Vote 44 - Flood Relief (Revised).
I thank you, Chairman, and Deputies for agreeing to meet this morning to consider the Revised Estimate for Vote 44 - flood relief - for which the total requirement this year is €5.064 million. The main element of the Vote is the provision of €5 million in the form of humanitarian aid for the victims of the severe flooding which occurred throughout the country on 1 and 2 February 2002.
Deputies will recall that the Government acted quickly to deal with this situation and decided on 5 February to put in place a scheme of humanitarian assistance to be administered by the Irish Red Cross Society which commenced advertising the scheme in newspapers and on radio on 6 February. A freefone number and website address were also published. Applications forms have been available since that date from the Red Cross and have also been distributed directly to affected properties in some areas and at public meetings in others. The last date for receipt of applications by the Red Cross is Friday, 1 March. Applicants must prove hardship under one of the following headings in order to qualify for aid: death, serious injury, homelessness, damage to home, loss of income, or extreme hardship.
The scheme provides for relief of hardship, not compensation for losses. It applies nationwide to anyone affected by flooding on 1 and 2 February 2002. The Red Cross has commenced assessing the initial batch of applications and expects to receive a considerable number of further applications before the closing date. It hopes to be in a position to make interim payments on some applications before the end of February. All applications received under the scheme are dealt with on a strictly confidential basis in accordance with the Red Cross's fundamental principle of impartiality and its experience in disaster relief, both nationally and internationally. Each claim is processed and assessed individually.
The Government decision stated the Exchequer cost of the scheme would be decided by the Minister for Finance. An amount of €5 million is now being sought for this purpose. The previous scheme which followed the severe flooding of November 2000 resulted in 447 applications and total expenditure of €3.49 million. An amount of €5 million is sought on this occasion as a greater number of individual properties appear to have been affected, although the flooding may not have been as geographically widespread as in November 2000. The Red Cross has already been issued with €1 million to ensure it has funds to meet the first payments to be made.
I take this opportunity to express my appreciation to Deputy Andrews, chairman of the Irish Red Cross Society, who has maintained close contact with me regarding this issue in recent weeks. I also extend my personal appreciation to the staff of the Irish Red Cross Society and thank them, on behalf of the Government, for taking on this onerous task. I commend them for their professionalism and speed in dealing with a difficult situation.
Vote 44 also includes a small provision under the home relocation scheme set up as a once-off measure in 1996 to provide humanitarian aid for the victims of flooding in the south Galway area in 1995. The Government provided a total of €1,054,000, to enable persons and families whose houses had been damaged beyond the reasonable cost of repair or whose houses suffered long-term flooding to be assisted in relocating. The fund is being disbursed by the Office of Public Works. A total of 17 applications qualified for assistance under the scheme and expenditure to the end of 2001 was €932,840. As there are still cases to be finalised, the provision of €64,000 is sought in 2002.
Deputies will note that no specific provision is being made under the third heading in this Vote - relief for victims of flooding in Limerick in 2002. A sum of €319,000 was provided in Vote 44 in 2000 as an exceptional measure to provide relief to certain victims of flooding, which occurred in Limerick at Christmas in 1999. No further expenditure is anticipated under this specific scheme. It should be noted, however, that people in Limerick affected by the flooding on 1 and 2 February 2002 are entitled to apply to the Irish Red Cross Society for humanitarian aid under the scheme announced by the Government on 5 February 2002. The sudden and severe freak weather conditions over the weekend of 1 and 2 February serve to remind us of the terrible and devastating impact flooding can have on the homes and lives of all those affected.
The Government is fully conscious of this fact and it has supported the implementation of a national priority programme of drainage schemes to alleviate localised flooding problems in different parts of the country. The first localised flood scheme carried out by the Office of Public Works on behalf of the Government after the passing of the Arterial Drainage (Amendment) Act, 1995, began in 1996. It was the first of many such schemes, with the current scheme for Kilkenny being the latest to reach work stage. The estimated capital cost of projects currently in the Office of Public Works's flood relief programme is €240 million. This represents a significant commitment by the Government to deal with the problems of localised flooding.
In relation to the severe flooding which occurred in the densely populated areas of East Wall, Ringsend and Irishtown in Dublin city earlier this month, people have expressed fears about the risk of future flooding at the time of the next predicted spring high tide, which is due this week on 28 February. My officials have confirmed with the assistant city manager that all appropriate emergency procedures are on stand-by to deal with any difficulties that may arise. I wish to confirm that a co-ordinated programme of emergency remedial works in the affected area has been implemented by Dublin City Council to prevent any risk of further flooding in the immediate future. A study of the precise causes of the flooding in each location is currently being undertaken under the direction of Dublin City Council. When completed, this study will help to identify what long-term preventative measures may be feasible, the appropriate body or bodies to carry them out and the funding resources necessary. My officials in the Office of Public Works are available to provide assistance to the local authority where appropriate. The Office of Public Works and the Department of the Environment and Local Government will also collate information from other local authorities on the extent of flooding in their areas. I thank Deputies for their attention. I shall be pleased to hear their views and I will endeavour to answer any questions.
I welcome the Supplementary Estimate introduced by the Minister for State. Public representatives are required to criticise shortcomings but on this occasion——
Excuse me, Deputy. I ask for the committee's agreement that Deputy Fleming take the Chair. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Deputy Fleming took the Chair.
I welcome the Estimate. Government Departments and Dublin City Council acted very quickly on this occasion. East Wall is in my constituency and I happened to be there on the afternoon the flooding occurred. I had been paying a scheduled visit to the local school and came out to find my car submerged in water. I immediately rang the city manager's office to alert him to the fact. I was told that the emergency plan was being implemented. That was a very swift response. I drove my car out of the flood and I saw the Taoiseach and two assistants canvassing in the area in the pouring rain. He saw it for himself. The city council and the Government acted very swiftly on this occasion. I also wish to commend the Archdiocese of Dublin. Cardinal Connell, the Archbishop of Dublin, often comes in for much criticism but diocesan funds were donated immediately and unconditionally to help people. In my view, that was a marvellous initiative by the archdiocese.
I acknowledge that problems exist and that the people suffering from them need the help provided for in the Vote. The Minister of State mentioned the small home relocation fund. I can speak with some knowledge of the East Wall area but I am not as familiar with the Ringsend area, which is in the constituency of Dublin South East. It would be a good idea if the local authority looked at the issue in conjunction with the house owners to see if relocation could be considered as a longer term solution, but that would be purely a choice for each individual householder.
The next high tide is due tomorrow, 28 February, so we cannot rest on our laurels. We all hope that the exceptional circumstances accompanying the high tide on 1 February will not be repeated. The city council circulated a report on its response to the events to all public representatives. I wish the council well in its endeavours tomorrow. It has done everything possible to avoid a recurrence of the flooding. Temporary protective arrangements will be in place tomorrow but a longer term protection plan should be made for the East Wall area, Ringsend and similar coastal areas.
I wish to congratulate the people of East Wall, North Strand and the Ringsend-Irishtown area. It has been a very traumatic experience for the families concerned and they have coped with great courage, stoicism and generally with good humour. I thank the voluntary and statutory organisations, the staff of the fire brigade, the Garda Síochána, the local authority and the health board. It is imperative to keep the drains and gullies clear in these areas. Valiant efforts were made by all local authority staff from the city manager down, but there should be a clear remit for the local authority that in areas close to the sea and rivers all gullies should be kept clear.
I thank the Minister of State and his Department for their efforts.
I welcome the Minister. During Special Notice Questions on the flooding crisis a few weeks ago, I raised the issue of flooding in Ballylongford, County Kerry, and asked that the Office of Public Works contact Kerry County Council with a view to drawing up a plan to ensure there would be no recurrence of the flooding which has been an ongoing problem for the past 50 years. On this occasion, some 20 families were affected and had to leave their houses. In the past, people did not put sufficient pressure on the local authority to ensure it would not reoccur, but this time they are very concerned. I visited the scene on the morning of the floods. It was quite worrying to see water levels of three feet inside houses, family property and personal items floating around in kitchens and other rooms and the sewers backed up. It was a very undesirable event. The Office of Public Works probably does not have to get directly involved in this case because I understand responsibility for drainage in the village lies elsewhere. Nevertheless, is it possible for the Office of Public Works to advise the council when such an incident occurs?
I collected and distributed some forms from the Red Cross and advised those affected to apply for compensation. Compensation, however, is for hardship only, not for losses. Will the Minister of State clarify the difference between hardship and losses? As the families affected in this case lost fridges, kitchen utensils, furniture, clothes and other items which must be replaced, they are obviously suffering hardship. I am aware of the categories of death, serious injury, homelessness, damage to home, loss of income and extreme hardship. There are subtleties which I ask the Minister of State to define.
I ask that the Office of Public Works examines the position in Ballylongford with a view to finding a solution for the future. If this is not within its area of responsibility, the experience available in the Department suggests that the circumstances of the recent flooding and the possibility of it happening again require that the Office of Public Works advises Kerry County Council on how to proceed.
I forgot to mention what is possibly the most urgent area. One of the difficulties which has arisen is relocation, people trying to find alternative homes. Most of those affected have had to leave their homes to allow refurbishment work to be carried out. Getting short-term leases, whether renting houses or apartments, is proving difficult and was the most difficult issue for people in the first week or two. It remains a problem for a few people who are living with family or friends. Perhaps an arrangement could be made with the Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers or similar organisations by which their members would row in when such emergencies occur to provide short-term leases which are not otherwise the norm.
In the past, whenever something of this nature occurred people very often wanted to return to the area where they lived. In the event of houses being uninhabitable and in need of demolition, perhaps the city council should give first refusal on replacement houses which are built later to the people who have lost their homes and wish to return to them. Whole areas were knocked down in the past because they were uninhabitable.
I thank the members of the Select Committee for their warm welcome and the points they have made with regard to the various bodies which reacted very speedily to the recent flooding. Events such as these cause terrible trauma for individuals and their families which can be devastating. Everybody moved as quickly as possible to sort out the problem.
On the home relocation issue raised by Deputies Jim Mitchell and Briscoe, Dublin City Council has contacted us on the matter and we will now begin to examine longer term solutions to the issue. The question always arises as to whether it would be preferable to shut down an area or part of it and rebuild elsewhere. It is our experience that, where possible, people prefer to keep their homes, provided the area can be secured. In almost every scheme in which the relocation option was available it has not been taken up. The only exception was in southGalway because nothing could be done as the flooding occurred in a scattering of houses in a low lying area.
They had to build them on a height.
This issue will be addressed in the overview. What we have been trying to do in the past few weeks is sort out the short-term position in the context of the high tides which are expected next week on 28 February.
Tomorrow.
A real effort is being made to deal with this potential problem. On the Deputy's point about long-term protection, I confirm that we are discussing the matter with Dublin City Council and will work with it in whatever way necessary to ascertain if a scheme could be implemented to secure the whole area. It is very early days, however, and Deputies will be well aware that such a scheme involves various procedures, including environmental impact statements, and takes time to put together. We are willing to do all this.
Deputy Jim Mitchell made a very important point with regard to gullies and so on. I have repeatedly stated during the past five years - the proof is there for all to see - that this is the responsibility of local authorities. It is interesting that those local authorities which make a minimal effort to try to keep gullies clear can avoid massive damage when floods arise. Unfortunately, an insufficient number of them are fulfilling this responsibility. This is very evident in rural areas where gullies have become overgrown leading to bad flooding on many roads. Years ago, people used to wonder what the men working on the roadsides did. Now they know and keeping these areas clear was a significant task. This point is equally relevant in urban areas. I encourage local authorities to meet their direct responsibilities, even if it only means starting a minor rolling programme because this would have an enormously positive impact in terms of helping to prevent serious flooding.
While not specifically within my area of responsibility, the issue of short-term leases is a matter which needs to be addressed. Apart from the direct involvement of my Department in the humanitarian aid effort in providing the funding to the Red Cross, many other Departments, including the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs, have been involved alongside the health boards and local authorities. These bodies should provide feedback into the central overview when it addresses the causes of the floods and what can be done in an emergency.
Almost everybody was sorted out in terms of accommodation, but I agree with the Deputy that, notwithstanding the trauma, the people in the area were very good and showed a strong interest in getting the necessary information, putting it into practice and trying to be helpful. This should not go unnoticed.
With regard to Ballylongford, the Deputy may not be aware that I met a group from the area very soon after the event. He correctly pointed out that this matter is not my responsibility. Works are under way and because of the nature of the problem, the engineers have contacted my Department directly with regard to the longer term. We have been in contact with the local authority concerning a small scheme - I believe it is a breakage near a bridge - with a view to providing some direct funding for action to be taken where feasible. I have sent this message to the local authority and the local engineers have been discussing the matter.
Will the Minister provide a note to that effect?
Certainly. I did not issue anybody with a note but I will write to the Deputy about that. That is it, in essence.
It is now 10.29 a.m. and we must conclude at 10.30 a.m.
What about hardship?
It is defined very widely. All these elements are included to make sure we can cover the full range of possibilities. I am not splitting hairs or splitting the difference as regards hardship cases. We have never had one complaint in the past regarding these schemes which are broadly defined to cover every eventuality.
The relocation in East Wall would not necessarily mean leaving the site. The configuration is such that houses on one side of the road were not damaged in the same way as those opposite. It is a case of rebuilding on the fringes, reconstructing the cellar or the ground floor, or rebuilding the buildings.
Yes, that is a good point. As Deputy Briscoe said, they are their homes and they are the people who will stay there.