SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 18 Jun 2003

Vol. 1 No. 16

Message to Dáil.

Chairman

In accordance with Standing Order 85, the following message will be sent to the Dáil:

The Select Committee on Finance and the Public Service has completed its consideration of the following Estimates for public services for the service of the year ending 31 December 2003: Vote 3 - the Department of the Taoiseach (Revised); Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office (Revised); Vote 13 - Office of the Attorney General (Revised); Vote 14 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions (Revised); Vote 18 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor (Revised).

On behalf of the select committee I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, and his officials for attending. We will suspend briefly, after which we will consider Vote 10, which pertains to the Office of Public Works.

Sitting suspended at 3.05 p.m. and resumed at 3.25 p.m.

Vote 10 - Office of Public Works (Revised).

Chairman

I welcome the Minister of State at Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon, and his officials to the meeting. We will proceed in accordance with the timetable agreed this morning followed by a questions and answers session.

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Parlon)

I am pleased to be here to introduce the 2003 Estimate for the Office of Public Works. Before dealing with the main heads of expenditure within the Estimate, I would like to refer briefly to current developments in the Office of Public Works. One of my main objectives as Minister of State with responsibility for public works is to transform under utilised State properties and turn them into valuable assets. For too long the State was willing to sell off its property and assets and let others extract the maximum value from the deal. Currently we are promoting a different approach which will extract maximum value from the State property portfolio.

In the past week, the Office of Public Works and Eircom jointly lodged a planning application for the first phase Westgate, one of Dublin's and Ireland's most significant urban developments for decades. It will transform the N7 western corridor to Dublin city and provide a dynamic living and working environment for thousands of people. Dublin City Council has identified this area, close to Heuston Station, as one of the most important development zones for the future growth ofDublin and has formulated the Heuston area regeneration strategy to stimulate and control this growth. This project, an important joint venture with Eircom, will be a key part of that future and will create a modern and dynamic western entrance to Dublin city centre.

In November 2002 I announced that a major review of national flooding policy would be carried out. The purpose of the review is to assess the extent of the flooding problem, clarify roles and responsibilities amongst the various State agencies involved in flood relief and recommend practical action to deal with the problem more effectively in the future. The review group, which I chair, comprises the Office of Public Works, the Departments of Finance, Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and Agriculture and Food, the County and City Managers Association, IBEC and the IFA. The first meeting of the group took place in January 2003, following which an advertisement was placed in the three national daily newspapers inviting submissions from all interested individuals and bodies wishing to have their views considered. I am advised that 70 written submissions were received as part of this process and all of these are currently being examined.

In addition, the review group also identified a number of key stakeholders whose inputs it believes are important to the development of future policy and most of these bodies have now been met. To date, the full group has met five times to consider a wide range of issues and I remain confident of being in a position to present its report to Government by late autumn of this year, as originally projected.

I will now turn to the main areas of expenditure proposed for Vote 10 this year. The total amount being sought is €405.706 million, this represents a 6% increase on the 2002 outturn. A sum of €351.9 million is sought for the accommodation programme where, at €210 million, building work is the largest element. Examples of the major projects being undertaken this year include the relocation of the Department of Agriculture and Food and State laboratories facilities to Back-weston at a cost of €80 million in 2003.

A major programme of rationalisation of office accommodation will take place requiring funding of over €37 million. We expect to spend some €11 million on a building programme for the Department of Social and Family Affairs and over €12 million on major improvement schemes on Garda buildings. Ongoing improvement and refurbishment works at the Houses of Oireachtas complex will account for approximately €5 million in 2003 and projects under way at the cultural institutions will have an annual spend of over €10 million.

An indication of the commitment of both the Office of Public Works and the Government to improve the built environment in terms of accessibility is the "Design for All" exhibition, launched in October 2002, in conjunction with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Institute for Design and Disability. The exhibition is designed to increase awareness and stimulate discussion on the topic of design for all. The Government is committed to the principle that all environments should be accessible to everyone, regardless of their ability. An allocation of €2 million has been included in new works in 2003 for the universal access programme. However, this does not represent the full extent of Office of Public Works expenditure on disabled access as all our major new construction projects and refurbishment projects are fully accessible.

Within the overall accommodation programme, €110 million is sought for rent and rates. Rented accommodation affords the office the flexibility to respond immediately to urgent requirements for space, as in the case of the various tribunals of inquiry, expansion of Departments and newly created bodies. The office currently manages over 1 million sq. m. of accommodation, of which some 40% is leased. Currently, the State property portfolio contains 1,710 properties made up of 1,924 buildings. Property and rental prices in prime city locations, after rising significantly in recent years have stabilised in 2002 and the Office of Public Works continues to obtain favourable rental rates in comparison to the private sector. Another element of the accommodation programme is that of maintenance of the State property portfolio. The estimated requirement for 2003 under this heading is €30 million.

The second programme in terms of financial importance is drainage and engineering works, for which there is a financial requirement of €36 million. The programme is comprised of the various flood relief schemes, ongoing arterial drainage maintenance and humanitarian aid. Deputies will recall that the Government reacted quickly to deal with the problems suffered by people whose houses were flooded in February and November 2002. Two schemes of humanitarian assistance were put in place and administered by the Irish Red Cross at a cost of €13.5 million. These catered for 1,400 applicants who had suffered extreme hardship as a result of the flooding. I am pleased the Government was in a position to respond quickly to the unfortunate victims of the flooding and hope the assistance provided helped restore their lives to normality.

The flood relief programme will require €20 million for ongoing schemes countywide. Works on the Kilkenny scheme are ongoing and will account for over €11 million of this year's allocation. Work has been ongoing on the interim flood alleviation measures on the River Tolka in the Glasnevin and Drumcondra areas of Dublin city since January of this year. All of the works will be completed in 2003 and the total cost of these works being implemented in the Dublin city area of the Tolka is expected to be in the region of €700,000.

The Office of Public Works is to carry out a pre-feasibility study on the River Shannon and it is likely to take nine months and cost €150,000 to make an initial assessment of the viability of localised flood relief works. It is generally accepted that a full scheme for the Shannon is not viable on economic and environmental grounds. The study is to be undertaken in co-operation and close consultation with the IFA, representing local landowners, Waterways Ireland, the ESB and other relevant bodies.

Before I conclude I would like to say that I and the staff of the Office of Public Works are looking forward to the reintegration of the national monuments and historic properties operational functions from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I am satisfied that this arrangement will result in a more coherent approach to the protection and maintenance of our natural heritage and built environment. I thank members for their attention and I will be pleased to hear the views of the committee and to do my best to answer any questions members may raise.

Mr. R. Bruton

I welcome the Minister of State and congratulate him on his vision to manage the State portfolio and get maximum value from the process. In that context I am interested to see how we can get a more transparent system of financial reporting from his office in order that the committee could share in the process of evaluating the progress that is being made. For example, I presume a normal company managing a portfolio of this scale would have a balance sheet including depreciation charges and certain performance ratios which would give someone who was reasonably competent to read these things an indication of how we were performing compared with others in the property management business. How close are we to getting that sort of information?

Traditionally, I do not think the State charged depreciation on its investments, which creates a rather unusual system of accounting because one is not charging the full cost of what one is doing. Will there be financial management and accounting changes to follow on from the Minister's ambitions which would give the House a better understanding of what is going on?

We all know that the national development plan has gone way over budget and has fallen way behind on many of its hoped for schedules. It is my understanding that the Office of Public Works is considerably better in regard to the projects it is managing. However, there is no indication in the material we have been presented with of how projects have performed with regard to budget. Were there overruns and what happened when that was the case? Were there reassessments of projects or was there redesign after an initial period? How justified are the overruns?

We need to see more of that sort of information to get an understanding of what is happening. I have seen guidelines from the Department of Finance which set out clearly what is to happen when the cost of a certain item increases, for example, if one hits hard ground or unexpectedly difficult terrain. However, it strikes me that there is never any re-evaluation. I have never seen a project altered substantially once it has started or cost overruns dictating that a project is not as justified as it was. I would like to see more transparently how that system is being handled by the Office of Public Works. I am sure even an organisation like the Office of Public Works has the odd lemon, where things do not go according to plan. We need to have a system of reporting so that we see how each of the major projects compare to budget, original costing, how the tender came in relative to the costing when it was first proposed as a project and if it is still justified when one examines the tender costs compared to the original estimate as well as what the perceived benefits are in those contexts.

For many, decentralisation is seen as a way of bringing activities into rural towns which need a lift. In that context, has the Minister of State carried out any sort of objective assessment of what sorts of savings in rent and building costs can be achieved by decentralisation? Has he done some evaluation of the exercise as a way of bringing down property costs, quite apart from the other aspects? I was surprised to see no evaluation of how the recent publication of the national spatial strategy has impacted on his own strategy. There was unease with proceeding with much of the NDP strategies before we had the spatial strategy. However, I would have expected that, now we have the spatial strategy, there would be significant re-evaluation or prioritisation of projects and that does not seem to be evident in the Minister of State's presentation. Can we see some evaluation in that regard?

To turn to more parochial issues, constituents of mine are concerned with the flooding of the River Tolka and the impact it had on a large number of homes. We have had one interim set of works and a recent report was submitted to the Minister which updates that work and will signal phase two of the interim works that are necessary. What is the Minister of State's view on this issue? Many of the works which were expected to be carried out in the initial flooding study have been deferred pending this report. Can we now see those proposals being brought forward rapidly?

In regard to the wider issue of the River Tolka, building in County Meath and areas of the city where previously land acted as a sponge in retaining water, has resulted in that water rushing into the city which is a significant contributory factor. What is the Minister of State's plan in regard to either holding areas to prevent water coming in or will there be changes to development plans to try and prevent or slow down the pace of development or have new requirements on developers to try and mitigate this problem? I realise this is a big issue and that the Minister of State will not give commitments until he has all the studies in. However, people are nervous that, since it is only a few months since this happened it could easily happen again. We need to see some fairly broad brush indications of the strategy and of the specific urgent changes which will come as part of that strategy.

As I said to other Ministers, what we have are lists of projects which are meaningless. We need to see Estimates of this nature presented in a programmed manner, whereby we can determine performance indicators, ratios of success, the achievement of targets and so on so we can have a more meaningful debate. It is preferable to running our finger down a page until we see Farmleigh House and assume there is a scandal or difficult issue associated with it. We need to have a more intelligent debate, involving more than just lists of numbers and buildings. I will have questions about those lists during the questions and answers session. Will the Minister of State set about offering us better information to exercise our scrutiny role in this area?

Ms Burton

I welcome the Minister of State. Like Deputy Richard Bruton I want to raise a number of issues.

Reporting figures in this fashion is deeply unsatisfactory for committee members because it is very difficult to do any meaningful analysis of them. Headings are not broken down and they are not attached to their associated projects as they would be in most accounting systems. There are summary costs and then diverse headings that are mostly of a capital nature. It is, therefore, very difficult to get an overview of the cost of major projects or public institutions.

The Minister of State mentioned the Office of Public Works entering a project with Eircom at Westgate near Heuston Station. I hope the project is successful but the greatest financial disaster in the history of the State was the decision by the Government of which the Minister of State is now a member to privatise Eircom and take the small shareholders for a complete ride. Given how people were ripped off in that privatisation by the leader of the Progressive Democrats, Deputy Harney, the former Minister for Public Enterprise, Senator O'Rourke, and the Taoiseach who sold the Eircom deal with massive advertising, what confidence can we have that the State will get a fair deal from this joint project with Eircom? It is now controlled by venture capitalists who have made no secret of the fact that their main objective is to sell on within a couple of years. While I have no difficulty with the concept, I have a sense of wariness given the declared ambitions of the current owners of Eircom to sell on the company.

What benefit is there to the State in releasing valuable State land which was formally part of Telecom Éireann? What is in it for Dublin city in terms of social and affordable housing? It was not possible to dispose of the Army barracks across the road because no developer wanted to build affordable or social housing. The Minister of State should explain clearly to the committee who will benefit. When we think of how much people suffered as a result of the Government's privatisation and how technology has suffered as a consequence, we should be very searching when it comes to this project.

The River Tolka runs through my constituency and I want to thank those in the Red Cross for the way they dealt with people whose houses had been flooded. I notice in the report, because the Minister of State must have regard to the Taoiseach's interest, he referred to the flooding in Dublin, clearly meaning Drumcondra and further down the Tolka, but he made no reference to Blanchardstown and Mulhuddart, where there was significant flooding. The Taoiseach recently signed an order for a special development zone of 2,000 further housing units at Hansfield, and the plans show the surface water is to go into the Tolka, along with 3,000 units on the former Phoenix Park race course site. Deputy Richard Bruton has already referred to Clonee andDunboyne where there has been massive rezoning without any regard to the fact that the Tolka gets its name from being a collection of tributaries and rivers which have a tendency to flood. The cost of the various ultimate flood relief measures mentioned could be €100 million and it might be less if the Office of Public Works was to make a sensible input into measures to prevent flooding and over-zoning in flood plains, particularlyDunboyne, Clonee and Blanchardstown.

How much value is the public getting from the Office of Public Works's historic properties? Farmleigh is in my constituency and I am particularly concerned about it. It has been restored at enormous cost and is now a showcase but it costs an enormous amount of money to run. I have had extensive correspondence with the Minister of State's predecessor and others connected with the project on one issue. This may get up the noses of some of the architects in the Office of Public Works who think stately properties are meant for stately behaviour, but for the 75,000 who live in Dublin 15, and the hundreds of thousands who live in the vicinity of the Phoenix Park, I put forward a modest proposal that, as with other State properties or those owned by county councils, there should be a children's playground within the grounds. There has been an incredible increase in population and housing development but we do not have a single children's playground. It ought to be possible to corral off an area of between three and ten acres of Farmleigh's 78 acres to provide for a playground that could be closed off at night so that, as happens in the other parks, it would not be subject to vandalism. I have visited Farmleigh a number of times and I compliment the job done by the staff but there is not enough public value and it would be possible, with the configuration of the site, to have a public playground. I have been in many stately properties around Europe, particularly during our previous EU Presidency, and I have seen the homes of kings and queens where the public have been walking within 500 yards of the boundaries of the property and it is possible to have year round public activity.

I know the Minister of State only came into the job recently but is it possible for the Office of Public Works to increase accessibility, particularly in the greater Dublin area? Most of the people on the committee are from farming areas and it might be difficult to understand why parks and children's playgrounds are so important to people in city and suburban areas. I compliment the Office of Public Works and the staff of the Phoenix Park for the job they have done. At the far end of the park, however, there is a children's playground and it is a hangout for junkies. No one would bring a child there. I am not asking for an answer today, but for consideration to be given to the matter and for the Minister of State to come back at a later stage and to be at least open to a higher utilisation rate. This should be done in terms of family uses for stately properties or of small areas of the grounds of stately properties. By doing this we will massively increase our attraction for tourists because many people who visit here bring children and by and large, despite all our lip service to children, we are not a family friendly country.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

We are being presented with a long list of Estimates for projects for 2003 which are already well under way. As I said to the Taoiseach earlier, and previously to the Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, this process is flawed. As the Office of Public Works projects are laid before us, we have little information to go on in regard to value for money. Section E shows a single large figure of €210.792 million for new buildings, alterations and additions which represents half the Office of Public Works budget. One of the major problems is the spiralling inflation in construction costs and this needs to be addressed. There is massive profiteering in this industry and one of the contributory factors is the virtual monopoly of Cement Roadstone Holdings in the provision of materials. CRH has almost no real or substantive competition and in the absence of competition and diversity it contributes to the ever-spiralling cost of construction projects.

A proper Estimate procedure would give a breakdown of costs which we do not have. Instead we have single ball park figures which is a flawed approach to the work of the committee. We should have a breakdown of the figures and how they affect individual construction projects, about which we have little detail other than that to which the Minister of State alluded in his contribution this afternoon. There is no indication of trends or the wider factors which affect costs. This is an inadequate way to do business and reduces the role of this committee to offering only observations on general policy rather than getting into the detail which this committee should be doing.

While I did not have real cause to do so in the earlier opportunities with the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, I take pleasure in saying the Office of Public Works is rightly praised for the very high standard of its projects, particularly as it addresses publicly owned buildings, particularly those of architectural and historical significance such as the National Museum, the National Library, the Royal Hospital at Kilmainham, and many others which do not appear in the Estimates. I am pleased to note that there is clearly a strong ethos of public service in the Office of Public Works and I commend all associated with that.

Now that I have addressed the officials from the Office of Public Works, I will address the Minister of State. That is in stark contrast to the spectacle he has created of himself posing with his "for sale" sign, which won attention from the media, as he offered an Office of Public Works owned site on the south side of this city to the highest bidder. Did he consider the real need of households and of young people who aspire to the opportunity of house allocation never mind house ownership, or even a modest apartment? They quite likely would have viewed the disposal of publicly owned property as something that would be used to facilitate the providers of local authority housing in the first instance, rather than continuing the urban sprawl. He had an opportunity in a location relatively accessible to all services to make a significant difference to people's lives. That site will probably be used for luxury apartment construction and will make a killing for the property developers involved.

I note in the Minister of State's contribution that he says "currently we are promoting a different approach, an approach that will extract maximum value from the State property portfolio". Well hurrah for that but the reality is that there is also in the spirit of public service a responsibility to look at the wider needs of communities and in this instance the Minister of State failed miserably. This is just part of a pattern of the selling off of State lands and properties which includes those in the hands of the Office of Public Works. These properties should be earmarked for social housing and offered to the local authorities and the voluntary housing agencies who also have a role to play in order that homes can be provided for people who are most in need. That is the critical reality. There are over 50,000 household units on waiting lists today which is a damning indictment of each of us.

I generously and genuinely salute the work of the Office of Public Works and I admire much of what it does but after offering him that olive branch I appeal to the Minister of State to take on board the concerns I have expressed and to change the ethos of this boast in his statement that he is going to "extract maximum value". Let us give maximum return to the communities which we are all either elected or employed to serve. That is what I would like to see the Office of Public Works do for properties whose disposal it is considering, particularly in such prime locations.

My colleagues referred to item H5 in Vote 10, concerning flood relief and humanitarian aid. I understand this mainly concerns flood damage in Dublin in 2002. I may be wrong in that and I note from the Minister of State's contribution that maybe this has wider application, nevertheless my observations will be no less pertinent. There was justifiable concern at the delay of several weeks experienced by people in real need in receiving aid as a result of the bursting of the banks of the River Tolka. These people's homes and belongings were destroyed. When we respond to international aid appeals we pride ourselves on the speed of our reaction. We have reacted more swiftly to international aid crises than we did to help people in our immediate neighbourhood. That is extremely regrettable. The scheme was administered by the Red Cross and, as Deputy Burton said, and I acknowledge, there is general agreement on the fair and very efficient way in which it carried out its job, which is to be commended. I ask the Minister to look at how the process can be streamlined and speeded up and how the response time to such emergencies can be cut to the minimum so people can feel the immediate impact of relief and aid being provided to them. If any of us were in the position of those families, we would all the more acutely realise how important that is.

Item E15C regarding the Oireachtas car park was estimated in 2002 to cost something of the order of €19 million. I understand the project is not going ahead. Perhaps the Minister might confirm if that is the case and whether the proposal has been scrapped. What is the purpose of the €200,000 expenditure in 2003, highlighted in Vote No. 10 under that heading if it has been decided not to proceed? There was a provision in last year's Book of Estimates. Why is the Minister providing €200,000 in the current year?

I wish to return to issues in my own constituency and go back in time a little. There is a residue of concern arising from the drainage of the Ulster Blackwater some years ago in my home county of Monaghan, which was carried out by the Office of Public Works. I am aware, as a local representative, of outstanding claims for compensation for structural damage caused by blasting and pile-driving along the river bed near domestic dwellings, as well as damage to water supply connections linked to group water schemes. That damage has been verified by the amazing alleged increase in water use evidenced by the metering system. Perhaps the Minister might say who in his Department at senior level would still be prepared to address those outstanding claims with the intention of facilitating the earliest possible resolution of the difficulties experienced by the families concerned. I am certainly very conscious, as I make this case, of one family in particular. There may be others, and I hope the Minister might be able to direct me to one of his colleagues who would take up the detail of the matter and ensure that there is no residue of disappointment in any part of the country.

Mr. Finneran

I welcome the Minister and join with other speakers in complimenting the Office of Public Works on the excellent work which it carries out and, in particular, the professionalism which it always shows. Many of the works around the country are a credit to it and are spoken about by people from far and near when they visit any of the houses or areas over which the Office of Public Works has control. The Minister too is to be complimented on his innovation regarding West Quays. It is the most innovative proposal to come forward recently, and I certainly believe that it will provide, as the Minister says, a dynamic living and working environment for thousands of people. Living environment is important, and that must be emphasised. I am glad that is in his statement, and I have no doubt it will come true and be a great success for the west side of Dublin city.

There were one or two points which I wished to raise with the Minister, the first being the position of the decentralised Government office block in Roscommon town. The Minister will be aware that, in recent weeks, the appeals board has cleared the planning application, and I would like the Minister to confirm that we will be able to move to signing the contract and starting the works in the coming weeks. At the moment, 130 civil servants are working in atrocious conditions, especially those in the Department of Agriculture and Food. While those in the General Registry Office under the Department of Health and Children are in renovated accommodation, it is nevertheless part of a former steel factory. Those are important matters to record here. There are other smaller areas that accommodate civil servants in County Roscommon, but the over 50 and 70 civil servants in the respective buildings are entitled to a standard of accommodation somewhat better than they have currently. Perhaps the Minister might confirm what is happening there.

Later tonight we will meet in the House regarding the other matter, but I wish to compliment the Minister on finding the money to conduct a survey of some sort regarding flooding problems on the Shannon for the first occasion in a long time. I am pleased to see that he has included €150,000 for it in his Estimates for this year. I agree with his statement that a drainage system - I have said this openly, and he will have heard me on different platforms - is no longer feasible or even worth considering. That proposal should be put to bed for good.

Having said that, the Minister will be aware that I have been consistent over the years regarding maintenance of the main channel of theShannon. It is inappropriate to use that major natural resource as an outfall and a dump, as has happened for over half a century now, particularly since the development of the peat works in the midlands, without taking out as much as one shovel of the residue that has accumulated. That cannot be allowed to continue and I hope the Minister's survey will identify the problem and that the Office of Public Works, in co-operation with local authorities along the river and other State agencies which have the use of the river, can undertake some form of maintenance programme over a period of five or ten years and bring the river back to a reasonable standard that will allow people to live with some sense of security regarding flash flooding. No areas should be allowed to continue to be flooded, in some cases in the middle of summer. Tonight we will probably speak further on the matter, but co-ordination among the agencies regarding water levels is also necessary.

Having said that, I very much appreciate the work of the Office of Public Works nationally. I hope that we will have further involvement after the Government has decided on decentralisation and that there will be an opportunity for the provision of further developments in the towns, particularly in the BMW region, which has been identified as an area which has not received what it might have considered its entitlement over the years. A Government decision in favour of towns in the midlands and west can give an extra economic boost to regeneration opportunities. The location of civil servants in a town will perhaps attract further commercial and industrial development.

Mr. Parlon

I thank the members of the committee for their comments and questions. Deputy Richard Bruton commented on the need for the Office of Public Works to have greater transparency, better reporting and a better business plan. We are working on that and are developing accounts for all of our different business units. For example, the architecture practice is established on the basis of a private practice, which is a feature of the Office of Public Works. It is benchmarking its activities against the private sector. It is easy to do that because it can compare its rates with those pertaining in the private sector. Four of the Office of Public Works's business units - the project management service, the architectural service, the engineering services and property management - are ISO accredited. The remaining units are working towards that. A computerised system is being installed.

Mr. R. Bruton

Will the Estimates for these activities be presented to the committee? None of these units has submitted reports to the current Estimates.

Mr. Parlon

We will be in a position to give more information on that. The format we present is dictated by the Department. On the question of decentralisation, the value of rented accommodation and the better value that may be achieved by decentralisation, the current average Office of Public Works price for rental accommodation in Dublin city is €32 per square foot. That compares with the average rent for prime third generation space of between €47 and €49 per square foot. Being the biggest player in the market, we drive a hard bargain and we believe we are getting better value than the average.

Provincial rents have been increasing in line with Dublin rents, but good quality space can be secured for a rental of between €16 and €18 per square foot. Much better value is to be had in provincial areas. It is only one reason for promoting decentralisation.

With regard to the plan for holding water up stream on the River Tolka, the river falls into three different council areas. At one meeting I attended it was proposed that County Meath should become a flood retention plane for the river. I am sure it was made in jest, either before or after a certain football match. Substantial works have already been undertaken and the opportunity has been taken to visit Clonee and Dunshaughlin and the different areas involved. Substantial interim works are ongoing. The main report commissioned by Dublin City Council - the greater Dublin strategic drainage study - initially was not to include the River Tolka, but the Office of Public Works strongly promoted its inclusion and ended up paying €870,000 for the study. It should have reported by now but because we had to get some interim reports from the consultant, it will not be submitted for another month or so. The final report has not been completed because of the number of interim measures that had to be taken. It was important that these fell in line and were not contradictory to what would appear in the final report.

The works done were those that could be completed immediately. There was good co-operation between the Office of Public Works and different councils in terms of getting immediate works done, which was a priority.

Mr. R. Bruton

Immediate works have been deferred pending the submission of the report. Will the Minister of State provide a reassurance that they will be returned to the schedule of works to be completed?

Mr. Parlon

I have become aware of the difficulties involved here. As soon as works have to be done anywhere, the planning, environmental and archaeological processes will cause considerable delays. We have experience of this with other big drainage plans. In this instance it was vital that we were able to respond immediately. Many of the works that could have been done immediately have been done. The big report will indicate that further substantial works need to be done. The national flood strategy, which we are in the process of drawing up, will take into consideration the recommendations of the new report and the substantial costs associated with them.

Deputy Richard Bruton asked that the committee be provided with better information. The Taoiseach has indicated that the timing aspect could be looked at, including the problems associated with presenting the Estimates to the committee for debate half way through the year.

Deputy Burton raised some questions regarding Westgate and commented on Eircom. I will not be drawn into that debate. It has been aired long enough. We find ourselves in a situation where we own a very substantial site with Eircom, formerly the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. From a common sense point of view, it was important that the owners developed the site together. The Deputy has expressed wariness about this approach. It is for that reason that we want to get the best value for the State. By developing the site in line with the overall strategic plan laid down by Dublin City Council, it is much easier to make collective plans for one substantial site of almost 15 acres rather than two smaller adjacent sites of approximately 6.5 acres each. We have made our decision in the context of securing best value for the State and to comply with the terms and the spirit of the strategic plan laid down by Dublin City Council.

Deputy Burton also mentioned the flooding problem in the Tolka valley. There was substantial flood damage, especially in Drumcondra. The Deputy mentioned the Taoiseach's involvement. The Office of Public Works has taken an even handed approach in Clonee, Dunboyne and so on in association with Dublin City Council, the relevant Dublin county councils and Meath County Council. I met with Meath County Council and visited the sites in question.

Deputy Burton raised a number of valid points regarding historic properties and mentioned a number that are not under the remit of the Office of Public Works, but Dúchas. The benefits of some national sites to the public must be questioned, especially if they are not children friendly. The Office of Public Works is concerned with making sites as accessible as possible. Farmleigh has attracted a massive number of visitors, with over 50,000 last year. It may be described as the State mansion for the purpose of entertaining heads of state. We are always conscious of the advice we receive from security. The Farmleigh estate covers 75 acres and is located within the Phoenix Park, which covers many hundreds of acres. In view of this, we must accept the security recommendations. I look forward to my involvement with the new Dúchas sites and the heritage aspect with a view to making them more accessible to the public, whether it be extending opening hours or making them children friendly.

Ms Burton

Is the Minister of State indicating that he will not consider the construction of a children's playground, even though there are 75,000 people living in the area with large numbers of small children? I have seen these types of development. It only requires a couple of acres. The Farmleigh estate is largely walled and fenced. The key aspect of playgrounds in built up areas is the possibility of closing them at night to avoid the unfortunate effects of vandalism.

I know well the Farmleigh estate, including the grounds, and the Phoenix Park. The Government is continuously zoning hundreds of acres for more housing in the area, yet it refuses to countenance a children's playground. All over Europe, similar developments can deal with small children by providing for integrated facilities. The redevelopment of Farmleigh cost a vast amount of money. It is possible to provide a safe children's facility there which does not endanger visiting dignitaries. They will not die of shock if children are in the vicinity, albeit at a remove. Most State visitors will not use the 78 acres on the estate. In view of this, I will be disappointed if the Minister of State does not consider this proposal. Those members who do not represent built-up areas may find it hard to believe that an area bigger than Galway, Limerick or Waterford does not have one children's playground. The Farmleigh estate is also a very important destination. Other historic properties in Europe and Ireland have these facilities without endangering visiting dignitaries.

Mr. Parlon

The Deputy is mistaken about the playground located at the other end of the Phoenix Park. It was recently refurbished to a very high standard and is being widely used by children.

Ms Burton

I hope the Minister of State is aware that it is also widely used by junkies.

Mr. Parlon

That is a social issue.

Ms Burton

It is an important issue for the people who live in the area. The Farmleigh estate can be closed at night. The children's playground is located at the other end of the Phoenix Park, which is very accessible. Unfortunately, it has for many years been used by drug takers.

Mr. Parlon

Last year I attended a number of events in the Farmleigh summer programme. A joint marquee and free entertainment were provided. The Taoiseach will shortly announce this year's summer programme - the radio advertisements for it began this morning. All will be invited and there will be some attractive events. People will need to apply for tickets, which will be free of charge. We want to promote Farmleigh as an open, friendly place and have made every effort at Christmas and other times to welcome the public, including children.

I do not have a problem with considering the provision of a playground. Lack of playgrounds is a problem throughout the country. Given the scale of the Phoenix Park, location is not an issue and if it is decided that one should be provided at Farmleigh we will give it consideration.

Ms Burton

Unfortunately, in an urban area it must be possible to close the playgrounds at night. That is the problem.

Mr. Parlon

If Deputy Ó Caoláin spoke with greater brevity he would be more effective. I was delighted when he complimented the Office of Public Works, but he spoiled it by criticising me. I do not have a problem with that. With regard to the sale of the property at Lad Lane, it is an acre site in a prime residential area. It used to house the Office of Public Works's maintenance section, which did not make sense from any business point of view. The facilities were outdated and we were able to relocate the department with new facilities at Collins Barracks. The site is worth a very substantial amount of money. I have no difficulty in having it offered to the highest bidder. We have indicated, and cleared with the Minister and the Government, the right of the Office of Public Works to make use of the proceeds from the sale of the site for clearly identified purposes, one of which is to assist in the purchase of sites for Garda stations and to contribute to the fitting out of stations. We already have five Garda stations on a list which require refurbishment for one reason or another, mainly due to health and safety concerns. At least five stations will be able to be fitted out to a very high standard.

The proceeds of the sale of the site will also allow for the provision of regional offices for the national educational psychological service, a new service introduced by the Department of Education and Science to make psychologists available to schools and teachers to identify learning difficulties in children at an early age when something can be done to help them. There is a deficit in the facilities available to the service. Finally, the proceeds will allow the Office of Public Works to buy out some leasehold interests in properties it is leasing long-term and which will be strategically required for the future.

We are aware of the problems with socially affordable housing. The apartment and residential development in Westgate will comprise 10% social housing and 10% affordable housing on site. It is in keeping with the law and the spirit of the Dublin City Council plan, which we have strongly embraced. We are well advanced in identifying other sites on both sides of the city that will be available for socially affordable housing. They may be offered at reduced rates for that purpose. We take seriously our responsibilities in this area. However, there are horses for courses.

With regard to flood and humanitarian relief, the floods in question occurred in November. We used the Red Cross because it is quick on the ground. We have no complaint from our past experience of dealing with the Red Cross. It deals with people in a very humanitarian way and has good experience in this area. There was much pressure to provide money before Christmas and I understand that in most cases it was provided. Some 68% of the money was paid in Dublin, 11% was allocated among 75 applicants in County Meath while 56 applicants in Cork received money, as did a couple of applicants in my county.

No geographical limitations were imposed on the humanitarian aid relief. I recall passing the legislation late one evening in the Dáil. The only limitation was imposed by the timing of the floods. There were severe rains in November, but nobody was disqualified, regardless of where they fell, be it in Counties Sligo, Offaly, Dublin, Meath or Cavan. I have complimented the Red Cross for the speed, fairness and common sense approach it exercised. The Deputy's complaint about a delay or difficulty is practically the first I have heard. When the Chairman of the committee and I lunched last week, I overheard two people discuss the tremendous response they got from the Red Cross and the Office of Public Works. I was delighted to hear such positive comments, but I restrained myself from making an introduction. Humanitarian aid for natural disasters is very expensive, but it cannot be budgeted for. The Office of Public Works had to find the money immediately within its Vote, even if it reflected on our spend for the rest of the year. I am happy the money was paid out with such speed.

The position regarding the Ulster Blackwater has not come to my notice. If necessary, my officials will investigate the matter. Perhaps the Office of Public Works was not responsible for all the blasting in the area, but it is something we can examine.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Minister of State did not answer my last question. I also indicated I wish to speak to him about these matters.

Mr. Parlon

The Deputy mentioned that one or two families had a query. The head of engineering services, Tony Smith, will address the matter. That is not a problem.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Minister of State did not respond to the car park question.

Mr. Parlon

There were very expensive plans for an underground car park and, obviously, if one had the wherewithal to provide that, it could be done. As we know, underground car parking is a major feature of cities around the world. It is easy to build such a feature into the plans for a new building but it is a different matter to add such facilities to an existing edifice. There were plans for a substantial multi-level underground car park but they have been deferred because of financial constraints. The €200,000 in the Estimates, to which the Deputy referred, were for consultancy and planning fees for the particular car park. They are on ice for the moment but if the situation changes in the future I am sure they can be taken out.

Ms Burton

Will Leinster Lawn be restored?

Mr. Parlon

Yes. We have plans to begin that work very soon.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Minister of State said the car park was deferred so these plans have not been parked - pardon the pun - permanently. Is he holding out the expectation that the matter will be revisited at some future time, or is that realistic?

Mr. Parlon

Cost is the main reason for deferral and the decision was taken in the context of priorities. From an engineering and practical point of view, it makes eminent sense to have an underground car park as it will free up a great deal of space on both sides of Leinster House. If the Kildare Street side was not so cluttered up with cars, Leinster House and its environs would look much better. It is intended to make Leinster House more accessible for the public in future. While the underground car park makes sense, the plans have been deferred for the moment.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Given that there is significant parking congestion - there are 226 Members plus a staff of approximately 500 - current parking requirements are not being adequately catered for. If Leinster Lawn is to be restored and the underground car park plan is to be deferred, what steps will the Minister of State take in the interim to address the car parking needs of the 750 people who work here daily?

I have acknowledged the fair and equitable manner in which the Red Cross carried out its responsibilities on flood relief. I am disappointed, however, if the Minister of State took the view that no improvement could be introduced. The Minister of State should acknowledge the need to speed up response times to these catastrophes. I am not joking when I say we have responded to international problems more quickly than we have responded to providing substantive flood relief in this experience. While the problem may have passed for the majority of those affected, there remains a responsibility to undertake a review of the response time, which needs to be speeded up. If I am the first to have made that point, I make no apology for doing so.

Let us examine the issues of social housing and the disposal of State property. The Minister of State is proposing to spend the excellent return he boasts from the disposal of the Lad Lane property on improving six Garda stations and increasing the schools psychological service. Let us be frank about this: both those items are often symptomatic of the failure of Government, and of society at large, to address the social needs of people who are most in need. We must take bold steps to address the basic needs of ordinary people, including the more than 50,000 people without adequate accommodation, many of whom are living in atrocious conditions, not only in this city but in every community. We will always need money for Garda stations and child psychology services but let us address the cause of these difficulties first. While I acknowledge the need for such services, and that it will always be there, an important opportunity was missed in this case. The Minister of State should be mindful of that need in taking such decisions in future.

I hope that was briefer than my earlier contribution, since my brevity is of some concern to the Minister of State. We will always be friends anyway.

Mr. Parlon

The overall flood review we are undertaking in conjunction with all other Departments, will certainly cover humanitarian aid also. I have no doubt improvements can be made in streamlining the response times but, in the circumstances of this case, those who urgently required support received it much faster than from any other agency - I am talking in particular about insurance companies. In some cases, the Red Cross people were in a position to respond instantly to a major need. We are lucky to have the Red Cross and I realise the Deputy was not inferring that its response was deficient. Insurance companies have been threatening to withdraw cover from areas that are subject to consistent flooding. We have put a great deal of pressure on them to make sure that will not happen, although it is an issue.

The point was made about the influence planning has had. The Office of Public Works is currently drafting a flood risk map, which will provide a strong indication for local authorities as to which areas are at risk from planning. That will also have implications for the value of land, given the pressure that exists for development. The intense planning that has occurred, particularly in the Tolka river catchment area, contributed significantly to the flooding. I expect that will be dealt with in the overall report.

We intend to restore Leinster Lawn as well as having the same number of car parking spaces that existed prior to the developments there. They may not be enough but no office in Dublin has a car parking space for every employee. It will involve an allocation process and management of the existing spaces. That is the best we can do until we are in a position to invest in an underground car park. In future, Deputies may not need to bring their cars to work, given infrastructural developments such as the Luas. I think I have dealt with most the points that were raised.

Mr. Finneran

I had some questions.

Mr. Parlon

I did not respond to Deputy Finneran. I was delighted to see that County Roscommon has received the go ahead from An Bord Pleanála. Work is expected to begin on the site in mid-summer this year. Roscommon is the last part of the old decentralisation plan to be implemented. I hope it will fall into line with the start of the Government's new decentralisation plans. The total estimated cost is €10.1 million. Expenditure this year is expected to be €1.5 million. I hope things will move along quickly. I accept the accommodation for some of the civil servants was poor and there were difficulties with planning in regard to the site. It has, however, been cleared and I hope things will move along quickly.

I refer to the Shannon situation which was raised earlier. Obviously, we must cut our cloth according to our measure. As I said, it is acceptable that there will no longer be a Shannon drainage scheme, whether because of cost, the environmental impact and all the agencies involved. I have no doubt the study being undertaken at the moment will identify some areas where works can done which will improve the situation. That study will take the bones of nine months to be completed. There is much co-operation on the ground with our engineers who are carrying out the study and we will wait to see what it brings forwards.

Mr. Finneran

Is the Minister of State satisfied the figure included in the Estimate for the Roscommon offices is adequate to meet the demands given that work is to start this summer? This is a design and build project. Is he satisfied with the moneys available?

Mr. Parlon

If anything, we did not expect it would be delayed so long when the budgets were being done. Lack of funding will not be a restraint on developments planned for Roscommon this year.

Ms Burton

What is the situation on the involvement of the Office of Public Works in the Abbotstown and Campus Stadium Ireland project? Last year the office became involved in the overall management of the Campus Stadium Ireland company. What is the ongoing cost of the Abbotstown project? Last year a figure of €25 million was allocated to move the State laboratories from Abbotstown and a further €80 million was provided for the building of the State laboratories at Backweston at Lucan. From what I can see, this is the single most expensive project for the Office of Public Works. What is the continuing involvement of the Office of Public Works in Abbotstown? What is the relationship of the Office of Public Works to CSID? What is the future of the Abbotstown site at this stage?

Mr. Parlon

The first big project of Campus Stadium Ireland in Abbotstown was the aquatic centre, which is up and running and is a fabulous success. Sean Benton, who is the chairman of the Office of Public Works, was the chief executive of Campus Stadium Ireland and was involved in getting that earlier project up and running. On his promotion to chairman of the Office of Public Works, he withdrew as chief executive of Campus Stadium Ireland, although he continues to be a director.

The decision to move the agriculture laboratories and the State laboratories was to free up the site, although both laboratories needed redevelopment anyway given their deplorable condition. That development is very much in hand. This year almost €8.5 million is being spent on the agriculture laboratories and almost €8 million on the State laboratories in Backweston. Total expenditure for this year is about €80 million. Anyone who passes by will see it is a substantial project. There are plans to move the food safety organisation and to relocate other Department of Agriculture and Food staff to that area.

From my farming experience and from visiting Abbotstown, the agriculture laboratories needed to provide lands for a substantial number of animals. The cost of securing those animals in what is now practically a built up area was substantial. Moving them to Backweston and to the Longtown farm there will, I hope, be a practical move. The laboratories in Backweston is the largest project being undertaken by the Office of Public Works and it will free up the Abbotstown site.

Ms Burton

What does the Minister of State envisage happening with the Abbotstown site at this stage, particularly in regard to the developments and the continuing involvement of the Office of Public Works in CSID?

Mr. Parlon

One of the projects, which has been mooted, is a national stadium. The IRFU and the FAI commissioned a report by Arup to look at the feasibility of a national stadium on a number of different sites, Abbotstown being one and Lansdowne Road being another. The Office of Public Works was asked by the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism to give the State a report on the Arup report. We are currently formulating that report and I hope we will be in a position to present it to the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, by the end of the month.

Ms Burton

That report will become available only after the Dáil has risen for the recess. Abbotstown is in my constituency and it is of huge significance to the people in it, although, over and above that, it is obviously of huge national significance. Would it not be possible to bring that report forward while the Dáil is still sitting? It is regrettable that a number of these reports will only become available after the Dáil has risen because it limits the capacity of Members to ask questions. We will not get the Hanly report on the health services until after the Dáil has risen for the recess.

Mr. Parlon

It is a large work and the Office of Public Works has also commissioned outside consultants to do some work on the report.

Ms Burton

That is something I find terribly difficult. There are consultants and consultants to report on the consultants. There are able and expert people in the Office of Public Works who, by their intervention in the CSID, immeasurably added to the completion of the national aquatic centre. The input of the Office of Public Works and Mr. Benton into that venture was timely and useful. If this expertise is available in the Office of Public Works and, as the Minister of State said earlier he is in the business of maximising value to the State, why do we need consultants to report on consultants? This is one of the reasons public expenditure is so much in rag order.

Mr. Parlon

The provision of a world class stadium is a substantial investment and we have heard all sorts of figures bandied about. A great deal of expertise is required. Since it is not every day that the Office of Public Works builds a national stadium, it would not have that specific expertise. There are other issues in terms of viability and the infrastructure necessary to get 40,000, 60,000 or 80,000 people in and out of a stadium in a short time. We found it necessary to bring in that extra expertise but we have made full use of our in-house expertise as well.

The provisional report by Arup was a private one commissioned by the IRFU and FAI. Clearly, it is dependent on substantial State investment in the project. Before the Office of Public Works could make a recommendation or the State could commit itself to making a substantial contribution, we want the top expertise available. The report will be published before the end of the month but I do not think it can be expedited.

Ms Burton

What consultants has the Minister of State commissioned?

Mr. Parlon

They are Davis Langdon and PKS, consultants which have been involved in many of the big stadia in the UK and in Europe.

Mr. R. Bruton

To pick up on the Abbotstown site, will the Minister of State explain how he proposes to assign the costs? The Department has spent close to €300 million on the relocation of the laboratories. The Minister of State can say some of this is a better facility and therefore some of the costs can be assigned to the laboratories, but obviously much of this was motivated by the desire to vacate this site. How much of this €300 million will he put as a cost factor on the future viability of other projects? If he is assessing the proposal of a stadium, what costs will the Department add in from this and how will it make the evaluation? Can the Minister of State give us some of the principles he will apply and what sort of benefits he would hope see?

There is widespread belief that many of these stadiums, like those in Australia, have proved to be terrible lemons in that they cannot fill them. I would like to have a better handle on how the Department will attribute the cost allocation and evaluation to date. In the way that this has been handled to date there seems to be a great deal of spin and vested interests wanting to see certain outcomes. We would like to see that, standing in the breach for the taxpayer, they are applying rules which we can stand over, in the way these costs are assigned and the merit of different ways of using State assets are decided.

I noted that there are a number of refurbishment projects in the schedule, one of which coming up involves the spending of €33 million on Hawkins House. There is €24 million for a Department of Agriculture and Food fit-out and €16 million on St. Stephen's Green, which I presume is for the offices of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. How have these projects been selected and prioritised? There is another €23 million for 7-9 Merrion Row and €11 million for the refurbishment of Goldsmith's house. Is there any way in which we can see that these are justified, high priority projects at this stage? How does one decide the ranking of projects which need to get these substantial investments in the Department's programme? Can the Minister of State give some information on that?

Could he tell us how next year's presentation will be different from this year's? Will he produce the cost centres? Will he produce an analysis of cost overruns on the projects and will he give us a much different set of financial returns to accompany the ones which the Department of Finance insists he give us? It is fine, if the Department wants it that way. I am sure it is useful in some way.

Mr. Parlon

The figure laid out for the reallocation of the State laboratories to Backweston is €200 million and the High Point Rendell report at the time confirmed that it was absolutely essential due to the condition of the laboratories. There have been some horrendous stories about the condition of the laboratories from those who visited them. A state needs its own independent laboratories.

Mr. R. Bruton

That something is essential does not usually enter into cost-benefit appraisals. One assigns a cost and a benefit, and decides how much cost one is assigning to one thing and how much one is not. That is the same old political clap-trap which gets the Departments bad reputations, that there is not proper evaluation. From the start, Stadium Ireland has been dogged by no one taking a hard look at this on behalf of the taxpayer and that is the reason for the current mess.

Mr. Parlon

The State laboratories are a totally different issues. The land at both Abbotstown and Backweston is State owned and therefore it did not really make any difference, in terms of whether it was built, except for selecting the most appropriate site. It was deemed to be more appropriate at Backweston because of the location, than at Abbotstown which is in the middle of what is at this stage an intensively built-up area. That is the allocation. It would have to be spent anyhow, regardless of the feasibility——

Mr. R. Bruton

I would like to see that spelt out in a technical document and presented to the committee. If the State has buildings and is talking about refurbishing and modernising them, that is very different from demolishing them, clearing the site and building on a new site. Stating that it was essential and it had to be done should not enter into it, let us have a proper technical summary of the decision.

Mr. Parlon

It is there. The technical deficiencies of the State laboratories were spelt out in great detail in that report. As a layman, I went to visit them.

Mr. R. Bruton

In which report?

Mr. Parlon

In the High Point Rendell report.

Mr. R. Bruton

Can we see a non-technical summary of why it was decided?

Mr. Parlon

There is also a separate Office of Public Works report to the Department of Finance on the deficiencies within the State laboratories. It is there to be seen and I can make it available to the Deputy.

Mr. R. Bruton

The Minister of State can send us a non-technical summary. The handling of this smells to high heaven. It really looks like it was politically driven.

Mr. Parlon

One can put that spin on it. The Deputy has also raised an issue about some of the other houses as to why they would be selected. If one goes into Agriculture House, Hawkins House or the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform's building and walks around the area to see the conditions in which people are working, one will see that it is good management by Office of Public Works, as protectors of the State property portfolio, to continue to reinvest and to upgrade buildings. All of those revamps mentioned are long overdue, in terms of the working conditions to which people would feel they were entitled and in terms of giving a good return on that work. It is a matter of prioritising them. I do not know how long it is since Agriculture House, in the centre of Dublin, was built and very little money was ever spent on it.

Ms Burton

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, who is a colleague of the Minister of State, referred to Abbotstown as a Ceausescu like project. It was other colleagues of his, in the campaign in Dublin West, who wore prominent lapel badges with a picture of a toilet and the following slogan, flush the Abbotstown project down the toilet. Therefore it is not a flight of fancy by the Opposition that there are concerns about Abbotstown. The Minister of State's party was highly exercised about everything to do with Abbotstown and he should not lecture us about our concerns——

Mr. Parlon

The Deputy seems to be getting mixed up. The issue is not about the stadium.

Ms Burton

——when his colleague, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, resorted to totally inappropriate rhetoric.

Mr. Parlon

Deputy Bruton is inquiring about the reason the State laboratories are being upgraded.

Ms Burton

I would never compare a Taoiseach of any party to Ceausescu, but that was the rhetoric used by the Minister of State's party during the course of the election. He should not blame the Opposition for raising this question. We are entitled to get reasonable answers. Given the vehemence of feeling which his party has expressed on it, he should not accuse the Opposition of being unreasonable.

Mr. Parlon

I do not think I suggested anybody was being unreasonable. Deputy Burton is clearly getting mixed up because I have been addressing the question of the relocation of the State laboratories. Both of them happened to be in Abbotstown. A decision was taken to build new laboratories at Backweston instead of Abbotstown. The feasibility of a stadium is a whole new issue.

Mr. R. Bruton

My point is that if the Minister of State makes such a decision, it is on the understanding——

Mr. Parlon

If the Deputy would let me finish, the feasibility of a national stadium is a new issue.

Mr. R. Bruton

No. If the Minister of State makes a decision to move the State laboratories, it is on the understanding that this is a benefit, that the Department recovers certain costs by having the site vacated and used otherwise. Those benefits, which the Department will get, must have been built into that decision.

Mr. Parlon

The State laboratories were in absolutely dire need of re-investment. If the Deputy remembers the foot and mouth disease crisis——

Mr. R. Bruton

If the Minister of State would not cut across me for a minute, perhaps I could make my point before he answers.

Mr. Parlon

There is no point in trying to talk me down.

Mr. R. Bruton

I have not made the point yet and the Minister of State immediately intervened before I could make it. May I make my point and then he can answer? I would have thought a rational decision on the State laboratories would state that we will move to a greenfield site, it will cost X to build but we can justify that because we can sell off the site we are vacating for Y. Therefore it would list the benefits and the savings elsewhere. What I want to know is what is the figure for X and to where will that figure be attributed if the stadium is built? What is the Department expected to have recovered to justify the decision because it had to be something like that to make a proper economic decision or the Department's evaluators must have had that sort of thinking in mind? What is this figure and when will it be published? It will represent part of the cost ofStadium Ireland or whatever else is developed on the site.

Mr. Parlon

The decision to build new State laboratories was made because of the major deficiencies in the existing laboratories, which are totally outdated, housed in old buildings and lacking in facilities.

When the outbreak of foot and mouth disease occurred, all our samples had to be sent to the UK for analysis. It is important for State security and our economy that we have within our remit the facilities to carry out our own analysis, whether in agricultural or State laboratories. Therefore, the decision to relocate and rebuild the agricultural and State laboratories at the substantial cost of €200 million had to do with the benefit they would bring in terms of having the site vacant. The site at Backweston obviously has a substantial value as well, but both sites are owned by the State.

Deputy R. Bruton

Maybe the Minister of State will send me the report on this matter because, on the basis of what he is saying, I do not believe it was evaluated soundly. That it was done because it had to be done does not convince me as a good way to make a decision. One could say this of almost anything.

Mr. Parlon

We can provide the Deputy with a list of the new Garda stations that will be built this year, some of which will be built on existing sites and others of which will be built on new sites. Garda stations have become outdated and dilapidated and are not of the scale or up to the standard required. Likewise, it was found necessary to replace our State laboratories. The decision to move them to Backweston will not release any massive value from the Abbotstown site, but the latter site is clearly of substantial value, whatever it is developed for. DeputyBurton raised the issue of the feasibility of the project but the report that the Office of Public Works will make to the Minister, DeputyO'Donoghue, will take into account the planning difficulties. The Arup report considered five different sites, including Abbotstown, Lansdowne Road and one near Newlands Cross.

It is clear the building of a very substantial stadium will have planning implications. Design, access and transport facilities - if it is to have large capacity - have all to be considered. The business case has to be made as well. A Deputy stated that some stadia are built which may never pay for themselves. I do not know if it is viable to suggest that a stadium should have to pay for itself but this certainly must be examined, along with the overall cost. There has been much comment about the cost of building a stadium in Ireland compared to building one anywhere else in Europe or the world. The Office of Public Works report will address all these issues and adjudicate between the five suggested sites. However, the decision to go ahead, or otherwise, with a national stadium will be a decision for Government in the longer term.

Chairman

On behalf of the select committee, I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Parlon, and his officials for attending today's meeting. I thank the members of the committee for their attendance since 11 a.m.