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SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Apr 2008

2008 Annual Output Statement.

On 21 February 2008 the Dáil ordered that the following Revised Estimates for Public Services be referred to this committee for consideration: Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach; Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General; Vote 4 - Central Statistics Office; Vote 13 Office of the Chief State Solicitor; and Vote 14 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

I welcome the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, and the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Tom Kitt, and their officials. The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the Taoiseach's group of revised Estimates and the output statement from the Department of the Taoiseach. A draft timetable for the meeting has been circulated which will allow for the opening statements by the Taoiseach and the Minister of State and Opposition spokespersons, followed by a discussion on each Vote. Is the timetable agreed? Agreed.

On foot of the 2006 budget reform measures the annual output statement of the Department of the Taoiseach has also been provided to us and has already been circulated to members to facilitate the consideration of the Estimates. Members will recall that the Minister for Finance wrote to the committee on 1 February 2008 requesting that the debate we are about to have should have a particular focus on the output to be achieved for the moneys being voted. In this regard I have circulated a copy of a letter sent to the Chairmen of the other select committees asking them to forward any observations in regard to the Estimates process to our committee in order that a co-ordinated overview of the conclusions of all the select committees on their considerations of the 2008 annual output statements and Estimates can be drafted for the submission to the Minister for Finance.

I presume that will not be the end of it. We would not fulfil our mandate if we deemed writing to other committees for their observations was sufficient for us to provide the Minister for Finance with an overview. This requires work by this committee.

The purpose of the letters to the committees is to get clearance from them that they will co-operate in responding to the request from the Minister for Finance.

I now call on the Taoiseach to make his opening statement. I bring to the attention of the committee that the Taoiseach has another engagement at 6 p.m. and must, therefore, leave the meeting no later than 5.40 p.m. However, in the event that we have not concluded, we can continue the proceedings with the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Tom Kitt.

Thank you, Chairman, for your remarks, which I appreciate.

I welcome the opportunity to appear before the select committee as it considers the 2008 Estimates for Vote 2 - Department of the Taoiseach, Vote 3 - Office of the Attorney General, Vote 4 - Central Statistics office, Vote 13 Office of the Chief State Solicitor, and Vote 14 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

A total of €45.394 million has been provided in the Estimate for my Department in 2008, an increase of 3.6% on the 2007 allocation. This increase arises from the new provision for the organisational review programme and additional funding for the National Forum on Europe to meet the increased costs as a result of its increased activity in the context of the reform treaty. However, there is an underlying decrease of €600,000 or 2.7% in the administrative budget allocation for my Department, which has been achieved through the implementation of a range of efficiency measures including the increased use of shared services and better procurement practices.

The Estimate will fund a range of activities to advance the objectives in my Department's strategy statement, in particular the specific targets as set out in the output statement for my Department. The Department plays a key role in supporting the Government as it continues to progress national priorities; including promoting our interests in the EU and the wider world; steering economic adjustment in a period of lower growth through engagement with the social partners; achieving balanced development and a caring society; driving the capacity of the public sector to even higher levels of performance through the continued development of the modernisation agenda; and our overriding priority of securing lasting peace on the island of Ireland.

Much of my Department's work supports the activities of other Departments, so that its impact on final outcomes is often indirect and captured in the output of our sister Departments. Our output indicators are therefore mainly qualitative in nature.

When I spoke to this committee last year after the Assembly elections in Northern Ireland, I expressed the view that we could build a new relationship between the traditions on this island and that we could move on in a new spirit of friendship based on open dialogue and mutual respect. I am glad to say that, in the past year, we have seen remarkable progress in Northern Ireland, in relations on this island and relations between these islands. We are working together and making important progress in areas like transport and education, agriculture and the environment, tourism and energy and I have no doubt we can make our all-island economy a resounding success. We are committed to completing the devolution of policing and justice powers to the Northern Ireland Executive, as we continue to implement the St. Andrews Agreement, in full. North-South Co-operation has developed on a very practical level with our latest national development plan including joint investment in strategic projects of mutual benefit to both jurisdictions. For example, the Government is contributing €60 million to an exciting new joint innovation fund over the next four years.

Last week, I had the honour of addressing the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. The establishment of the committee is a reflection of the new political context on this island. At that meeting, we had public representatives, from North and South, engaging on a matter of enormous significance for the whole island. I understand why many Unionist representatives felt unable to attend. However, I hope that one day we will find a way for public representatives from all traditions to engage together on issues that affect us all. In today's world, it makes sound, practical sense for all of us on this island to work together for the benefit of all our people.

Last year when I spoke to the committee, I had earlier that day welcomed Dr. Paisley to Dublin. On Tuesday, 6 May, together with the First Minister, I will officially open the site of the Battle of the Boyne. The opening of this site and its wonderful visitor centre is recognition of the significance of the battle in the history of Ireland and Europe. It is also a symbol of our passionate desire for reconciliation between the great traditions that share this island. Real and genuine reconciliation will enable all of us to move beyond the conflicts of the past and the legacy of history.

The European and international affairs division supports me in my role as a member of the European Council and as Head of Government, dealing with Ireland's role in the European Union and in international affairs. The division works in close collaboration with the Department of Foreign Affairs and with other Departments, to promote Ireland's interests in EU and in international policy formulation. On 13 December 2007, I signed the reform treaty in Lisbon. The treaty is designed to enable the Union to manage twenty first century challenges which are increasingly global in nature - climate change, energy demand, cross-border crime and an increasingly connected global economy. At the same time, the treaty rationalises the EU's institutional framework so that the Union functions in a fair, efficient and effective manner. It also brings into force the Charter of Fundamental Rights to reflect the Union's values and underpins the rights of individuals across the Union. An extensive information campaign is being conducted by the Government to ensure the public are well informed in advance of the referendum. It is clearly desirable that the maximum possible number of citizens are encouraged to cast their vote.

My Department co-ordinates Ireland's activities in progressing the goals of the Lisbon strategy, which is discussed each year at the Spring European Council. The continued progress on economic growth and the creation of jobs in the European Union is very welcome in view of current economic conditions. Growth and jobs are what the Lisbon Strategy is about. The strategy's integrated guidelines and priority areas are fully in line with Ireland's priorities and objectives, set out in the programme for Government and Towards 2016.

On the wider international side, my Department's main interest is in strengthening bilateral relations with non-EU States, particularly in respect to international trade, and ensuring effective pursuit of Ireland's interests in international bodies and organisations, including the United Nations and the World Trade Organisation. In January of this year, I led the largest ever Irish trade mission to South Africa. The objectives of the visit were to further develop Irish-South African bilateral and trade relations and to visit Irish Aid funded development projects. The trade mission was an all-Ireland event, reflecting the increasing co-operation among companies and business organisations across the island of Ireland.

I also travelled to Tanzania to see at first hand the impact of Irish Aid's development programme in that country. I visited a number of projects supported by Irish Aid in key areas such as health, education and agriculture. These international visits form part of Ireland's strategic approach to developing our bilateral political, economic and cultural relations.

There is greater uncertainty than normal attached to the economic outlook. As a small and very open economy, we are directly affected by recent international developments, including the strengthening of the euro, rising commodity prices, and the turbulence in financial markets. However, notwithstanding that we are adjusting to a period of slower growth, we must not lose sight of the fact that there is real strength and dynamism in the Irish economy. We have a dynamic and well-educated labour force, low rates of taxation on both capital and labour, and sound public finances carrying one of the lowest levels of debt in the EU. That is why we should be confident in our capacity to respond effectively to less favourable economic conditions - not because we are immune but because of our proven capacity for problem solving and managing transformational change.

It is the underlying strength of the economy that is supporting the unprecedented level of investment now under way in enhancing our productive capacity, including a €100 billion capital programme under the national development plan. Following the 2008 budget, we are now committing nearly 6% of gross national product over the next five years to upgrading national infrastructure.

The task of Government, in this environment in particular, is to steer the economy and to guide the behaviour of various social actors in a consistent manner that reinforces confidence, while driving rapid adjustment when pressures or opportunities require it. That is expressed in the Government's strategy underlying the 2008 budget, and it will shape our continuing engagement with the social partners, especially in the forthcoming negotiations.

Towards 2016 commits that a formal review of the agreement will take place during this calendar year. The review will commence tomorrow and will run in parallel with the pay and workplace negotiations. It will involve a comprehensive review of progress on the implementation of the agreement. At the last plenary meeting of the social partners, I invited them to participate in the review process, and to that end each pillar has been preparing its position for the negotiations.

My Department will continue to work with other Departments to ensure a whole Government approach to the social policy agenda, through the Cabinet committees and senior official groups on social inclusion and health. Key issues for this year in the wider context include overseeing the continued transformation of the health service, the development of a national carers strategy, reviews of the Combat Poverty Agency and the national drugs strategy, and the ongoing implementation of the national disability strategy.

I am pleased to report that substantial progress continues to be made in the change and modernisation agenda for the public service, not least those developments provided for under Towards 2016. The overall objective of the programme is to maximise the contribution of public service organisations to the achievement of the Government's objectives through greater efficiency and effectiveness in the delivery of quality services to the citizen.

Work this year will be focused on a number of key initiatives. Last year, I invited the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development to undertake a major review of our public service. The OECD team is currently finalising its report, which I will launch next Monday, 28 April. This will be the first review with such a scope undertaken by the OECD. Of course, many stand-alone reviews of different parts and aspects of the public service in our country have been undertaken over the years. What is different is that this review is of the whole public service.

The whole public service review will report on how the Irish public service is performing relative to other OECD countries, and it will make some recommendations for our consideration as part of a renewed public service reform programme. I want our public service to be genuinely world class and fit for purpose to meet the needs of our citizens, but we need to show delivery on the ground, to highlight what is working and what is not, and to help ourselves to make more informed choices about where to allocate resources. In the coming months, the Government will develop policy proposals and initiatives following appropriate analysis of, and consultation on, the OECD review recommendations.

Complementing the OECD review is a new process known as the organisational review programme, which focuses on capacities at organisational level and which is being piloted in three Departments. That involves detailed examination and assessment of the structures, capacities, procedures and leadership capabilities in individual Departments and Government offices. The goal is to achieve a better use of resources and to improve the capacity of individual organisations to meet future challenges.

I am confident the reviews will provide important new signposts for the management of the three pilot Departments concerned. Publication of the results will be accompanied by follow-up action plans on the key findings. We will then assess the effectiveness of the pilot phase and make any necessary adjustments before further roll-out to other Departments. Overall, I am confident the reviews will yield new and better ways of doing our business.

Ongoing improvements are also being made in quality customer service. In July last year, I established a task force on customer service, which is working to advance the customer service commitments set out in the new programme for Government and to strengthen and deepen the quality customer service initiative in a co-ordinated manner throughout the wider public service. The task force has already produced its first interim report and should submit its final report early next year.

I want also to mention the Taoiseach's public service excellence awards, which I presented in Dublin Castle last Friday. A total of 20 projects were selected to receive awards this year from more than 180 entries from all over the country. I see the public service excellence awards as an important way of recognising and rewarding examples of good practice from throughout the public service. We do not often hear much about the good news stories and it is important to acknowledge that some very good work is going on out there.

The programme of work for the better regulation unit is guided by the Government White Paper, Regulating Better. Improving the regulatory environment for business is an important driver in maintaining Ireland's competitiveness. In this context, funding will be used for an independent benchmarking review to assess the comparative efficiency and effectiveness of key Irish economic regulators. Funding has been allocated this year for the completion of an independent review of the operation of the regulatory impact analysis. It is expected that the report will be finished shortly.

The Estimate for the Office of the Attorney General is €19.551 million. A total of €15.389 million is for the operating costs of the office, and the remaining €4.162 million is provided by way of grant-in-aid to the Law Reform Commission. Salaries, wages and allowances in the office account for €11.18 million. Some of the extra costs arise from the increase in posts sanctioned in January 2007, which the office hopes to fill fully during 2008, while the continuing programme of secondment of advisory counsel to Departments also adds to costs while increasing the efficiency of legal advisory services. Incidental expenses account for €1.03 million, which includes an allocation for staff training, information resources and services, advertising, cleaning, security and entertainment.

An allocation of €1.031 million is earmarked for office machinery and other office supplies and related services. The costs include those arising from the case and records management system - which is a joint system with the Office of the Chief State Solicitor - the maintenance of the office's human resources management system, knowledge management, updating the electronic Irish Statute Book, and the ongoing roll-out of the management and information framework. The subhead also covers office supplies, office printing and photocopying, and other office equipment. General information technology projects and equipment make up the balance.

The contract legal expertise provision of €1.1 million includes allocations for the employment of consultant parliamentary counsel, who are required in view of the Government's extensive legislative programme, and for the engagement of a contract barrister and researchers for the pre-1922 statute law revision project.

The Estimate also makes provision for grant-in-aid of €4.162 million to the Law Reform Commission. The commission has taken over responsibility for the preparation of restatements of legislation and the legislation directory, which was formerly the chronological tables to the statutes. The increased allocation reflects the filling of all the sanctioned posts in the commission.

This year's Estimate for the Office of the Chief State Solicitor is €41.283 million. Salaries, wages and allowances in the office account for €16.124 million. The increase is attributable to an increase in staffing sanctioned last year, along with provision for payment of increases under Towards 2016. A total of €1.248 million has been allocated for office machinery and other office supplies and related services. That includes the cost of the maintenance and support of the case and records management system and financial management systems in use in the office, which are shared with the Office of the Attorney General.

The case and records management system is now operational in all areas of both offices. It is expected that an interface between that system and the financial management system, so as to enable the full roll-out of the management information framework, will be completed later this year. The office has requested extra accommodation, and provision has been made for furniture, security and cleaning in the relevant subheads. The State solicitor service has now been transferred to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and funding in subhead A8 will be used for the conduct of civil work outside the Dublin area.

The Estimate for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions is €44.552 million. This provides for the salaries and expenses of the director and his staff, the cost of the local State solicitor service, fees to counsel engaged by the director to prosecute cases in the various courts, and legal costs awarded against the State arising out of judicial review and other legal proceedings.

I conclude by commending the Estimates to the committee and by thanking committee members, as always, for their attention. I will now hand over to Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Tom Kitt, who will make a presentation on the Estimates for the knowledge society initiatives and the Central Statistics Office, for which he has ministerial responsibility.

It is a privilege to be here with the Taoiseach on this historic day, as was evidenced in this morning's debate in the Chamber. I have already wished him well in another forum, but I echo everything you have said to him today, Chairman. Typical of the man, the Taoiseach is just getting on with it today, so I will get on with my part of the statement. As he said, I will deal with my responsibility for the information society and the Central Statistics Office.

There are two key aspects to the role of the information society policy unit in the Department of the Taoiseach, namely, policy co-ordination and e-inclusion. Work is ongoing on the new knowledge society action plan to replace New Connections, and it is envisaged the plan will be submitted to the Government by the end of July this year. The action plan will have regard to the recommendations of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on e-government, the review of REACH and the public services broker, and the forthcoming OECD review of the public service in Ireland.

A total of €3 million has been allocated for the funding of measures to foster e-inclusion. The main mechanism to achieve that is the access, skills and content initiative. The purpose of the ASC initiative is to assist voluntary, not-for-profit organisations and service providers to target those who are at greatest risk of being left behind in the move to the information society. My Department is currently preparing a call for proposals for 2008. That involves identifying what the key priorities should be and how best to administer the scheme this year. When this is done, applications will be invited and proposed projects will be assessed on their merit against the stated criteria. A decision has already been made that some resources will be allocated this year to broaden the scope of focus to include technologies other than computers, especially mobile phones. Funding will be targeted at the areas where we see the greatest need and potential for beneficial impact.

The Central Statistics Office is responsible for the collection, processing and publication of official statistics on economic and social conditions in Ireland. Although the main focus is on the statistical requirements of Government, there is a wide community of statistics users. They include the social partners, numerous public bodies, business, universities, research institutes and the general public. There is also a significant national dimension to the work of the office, and the demands resulting from European Union regulations are continually increasing. Net expenditure by the CSO in 2007 amounted to €51.145 million. The 2008 net allocation is €51.130 million.

The census of population is the largest project undertaken by the CSO. The full publication programme for the 2006 census was completed by November 2007. All the census tables were published on-line on the CSO website, as were the small-area population statistics. In addition, detailed statistics on travel to work patterns have been compiled from the 2006 census. These statistics are of immense value to local authorities and transport planning.

Under EU regulations, a census will be required in 2011. This will be in line with the general pattern of taking a census in Ireland every five years. The CSO plans to begin public consultation on the content of the census in August 2008 and to conduct a pilot test in advance of the 2011 census in April 2009. During 2008, the CSO is also implementing a new geographical information system, GIS, which will support the administration and mapping needs of the census. The GIS will also be used in the CSO's regular household surveys: the quarterly national household survey and the EU survey of income and living conditions.

These two surveys continue to be the main sources of information on demographic and social trends. However, there are many demands for more data on topics such as adult education, health status, crime and victimisation, travel and time use. Many of those are based on national policy needs, reflected in Towards 2016, and on mandatory EU requirements. Meeting the requirements will involve significant changes to data collection, and the CSO is preparing a comprehensive proposal for Government on re-engineering the current system of household surveys.

The CSO is planning to publish a wide range of reports on social topics during 2008. These will include the results of the national disability survey, which is to be published in the next two months, and reports on quality of life indicators and on children in Ireland later in the year. In 2006, the CSO took responsibility for the publication of crime statistics based on the data on crime recorded by the Garda Síochána. The publication of quarterly and annual crime statistics by the CSO is now well established. A new crime classification system, developed by the CSO in consultation with an expert advisory group, was published last week, and annual statistics for 2003 to 2006 have been published today.

The CSO conducts two major surveys of earnings: the quarterly earnings, hours and employment costs survey, EHECS, and the annual national employment survey. The quarterly survey is being extended in 2008 to cover all sectors of the economy, replacing a number of separate sectoral surveys. The EHECS and the NES provide important information on the trend and structure of earnings.

The CSO has worked with payroll software providers to reduce the burden on enterprises of answering the two surveys. Since the start of 2008, many payroll packages have included an option for the extraction of the statistical data required by the CSO. This innovation will significantly reduce the burden on companies of complying with the relevant statistical requirements. This is part of a comprehensive approach by the CSO to managing and reducing response burden. In addition to providing electronic response options, this will include both greater co-ordination between surveys and the publication later this year of a response burden barometer - a figure quantifying the burden imposed on business by statistical forms.

These developments are very much in line with the National Statistics Board's overall strategy for statistics. The CSO has continued to work actively with other Departments and agencies to promote the statistical use of administrative records and to help them develop their data and statistics strategies. The overall aim is to meet the growing demand for statistics and to help to support the effective use of statistics in evidence-based policy making.

During 2007, the CSO completed a major IT project to upgrade its systems for recording and processing survey information. The new data management system went live in September. Building on this new system, the CSO is developing an IT strategy for the next five years to identify the long-term future needs in data collection, processing, analysis and dissemination.

Finally, the number of staff provided for in the CSO's Vote for 2008 is 813. This compares with 840 in 2007. The decrease in numbers is due to redeployment of headquarter staff, following the completion in 2007 of the publication schedule from the 2006 census of population.

I conclude by commending the Estimates to the committee and by thanking committee members for their attention.

Like yourself, Chairman, I thank the Taoiseach for coming to the committee to deal with the Estimates. It is a gesture of his courtesy to the committee and of the importance that he attributes to the work of the Dáil. I sincerely congratulate him on his tremendous achievement. It is hard to believe that he has been 20 years in Cabinet. It is a remarkable period of service to the country. He has brought his well-known personal skills of consensus building and affability to every office that he has occupied. If we had a quarter of his energy, willingness to be available to people and inexhaustible smile for whomever he meets, we would all be polling the sort of numbers that he has. I suppose the rest of us have to struggle along as best we can.

I appreciate the bittersweet sensation of someone no longer being Taoiseach or leader of their party. I have seen that at close hand, and while a lot is negative, there are positive sides to the balance sheet. I am sure it will not take the Taoiseach long to discover those positive sides. For one thing, I know that, when St. Vincent's complete the double next St. Patrick's Day, he will be there behind Tomás Quinn as he picks up the cup, instead of being thousands of miles away in the USA. I look forward to seeing more of him in the future, and I might take him up on that long-promised pint.

Today is not a day for counting the paper clips in the Taoiseach's Estimates, and I do not propose to do that. However, if he is willing to do so, I would be interested in his drawing on his own experience to say what he thinks worked and did not work in his office in Government. What frustrations have been experienced? I do not mean to discuss those frustrations in the sense of a critique of his tenure in office, but we could perhaps draw some lessons on what Ireland needs to do for the future.

I will make just a few comments. It strikes me that it is the large initiatives that we fall short on. That includes the conception and delivery of decentralisation, the conception and delivery of the climate change programme, and e-government.

A recent report by the Comptroller and Auditor General showed how far short we came up. Other issues include spatial strategy. It is not for want of ambition. Many of those policies were full of ambition and enthusiasm to change things. However, somewhere along the road, we reached the point where we did not deliver in any of these areas in the way we or the authors of the plans expected. One could go through other areas, such as the health strategy. The big changes, where we try to get out of the silos of Government Departments and do something, seem to elude us. I am interested in the Taoiseach's insight into why this may be the case and what the lessons are for the future.

I was struck by a speech by the Taoiseach where he spoke about the importance of Deputies. Despite this and the Taoiseach's well-founded respect in Government for Deputies, we have never seen the heads of a Bill. The bringing of the heads of a Bill to a committee for input early in the legislative programme only happened once during my period in the Dáil even though that power was introduced a long time ago. The investigative powers of the Dáil have been entirely clipped and there has been no sense of restoring them. Budget scrutiny is entirely cursory and inadequate. This is not an unwillingness to allow Deputies to do useful work but the system seems to have closed and pulled up the ladder behind it. There is a growing and dangerous gulf between the ordinary elected Member and the process of governance. Again, I am interested in hearing the Taoiseach's view on that.

The 1997 Act, which was introduced when we were still in power, related to publishing strategy statements and key performance indicators and having strong evaluation programmes. When we look back over the period since 1997, we can see that there has been very little serious attempt to make the strategy statements a meaningful process for interaction between ourselves and Government. There are still virtually no key performance indicators. They are only beginning to be produced but they are not really ones that measure. In respect of regulatory reform, we say that we are going to cut it by 25%, but 25% of what?

I am interested in hearing the Taoiseach's own reflections. With the best of intentions, people go into Government and expect these things to happen. What would be the Taoiseach's advice to an incoming Administration about these things that did not go as well as he hoped? Equally, we would be interested in hearing about what the Taoiseach believed worked. What approaches or techniques were really positive elements? Perhaps the Taoiseach can give us some of his wisdom gained through 20 years in Cabinet which we could apply to the next 20 years.

Does the Taoiseach wish to respond?

Like others, I wish to be associated with all of the good wishes extended to the Taoiseach as he moves into a new phase in his life. I recently had the pleasure of visiting something about which the Taoiseach and I were in considerable contact when he was Minister for Finance. This was Lucan Demesne and the purchase by the State of about 200 acres in the Liffey Valley just beyond Lucan. Although it has taken more than 11 years, it is now open to the public. In many ways, it is an indication of what the State can do if it sets its mind to something and does it. Monuments are not built in a day but take time. Certainly, the Taoiseach might, at some stage, go and have a look because it is exceptionally beautiful. The then county manager and former city manager of Dublin berated me in public over the acquisition of 200 acres. I said that we would do a 20-year test on whether spending £750,000, as it was then, for 200 prime acres in west Dublin would be worthwhile. One of the things that has most impressed me about the Taoiseach has been the fact that he has used his influence in respect of national treasures like the zoo, the National Botanic Gardens and the Phoenix Park to make them facilities of which people who come to Ireland from all over the world are very proud and regard as concrete evidence of Irish culture.

I am sorry to mention that the only thing that has eluded the Taoiseach in his 11 years in office is Dublin winning an all-Ireland title. It is a sore point for many people. Now that St. Vincent's has won and will win again, aside from the events at Parnell Park last weekend, perhaps the omens are good and the Taoiseach will have the time to go to matches as often he likes.

The difficulty for many people with these kinds of output statements is that unless one actually works in the Departments, they are not very meaningful. I do not know if the Taoiseach reads them in detail. They are probably more meaningful because he is familiar with many of the projects. Other than when one sees the actual service, institution or project completed and functioning, it is very difficult to see the output. For example, in respect of the statements in the document about areas like PPPs, the financial position of PPPs has changed dramatically since the credit crunch because the cost of interest for private banks and consortia, on which PPPs are predicated, has risen because of the unwillingness of banks to lend to each other.

One of the difficulties one has with these statements is their inability to capture how things are moving on. I do not know whether the Taoiseach has any thoughts on that because he is very much inside the process. Presumably, most of the reports are much more meaningful to him because he knows the people and programme lines in detail. One of the reasons people tend to feel more distant from Government, particularly the EU, is because this type of wording is very difficult for them to access.

In respect of the action of Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, dealing with e-government, the output statement does not mention, although it alludes to it, the fact that the public service broker was completely abandoned and that the Comptroller and Auditor General produced a fairly detailed report in January indicating that REACH, which I believe was one of the titles with which the Minister of State will be familiar and which was mooted to have cost something like €14 million, was abandoned when the cost reached €37 million because it had never been able to identify anything useful. One does not take initiatives in public projects without there being failures as well as successes. Given the adversarial system of Government and Opposition in the way the Dáil works, it is difficult to get information and learn from projects that are successful as against those that not so successful, or projects such as this one, which for various reasons that I do not understand, turn out to be a disaster. Because there is not a significant degree of information and dialogue about such projects, the perception of them is negative. The net effect is often that the public loses confidence in them.

If more information was made available about liabilities in the public service, such as pensions, that would enable people to have a more reasoned debate on how we can move forward and achieve the goal of ensuring pensions for all employees, whether they work in the public or private sectors.

The Taoiseach has seen many changes take place, not only in his or my constituency but throughout the country. We now have a significant immigrant population. That is one of the most significant changes that has occurred since he entered politics. People from many nationalities now live here. The Taoiseach knows as well as I do that people frequently complain about services they do not enjoy. In terms of all the oversight committees, as this is one of the big challenges facing us, what would be the Taoiseach's approach to addressing this matter?

I am delighted that the Taoiseach visited Tanzania and South Africa earlier in the year. An interest we have in common is Ireland's overseas aid and development programme. I regularly read letters in one media source that claim that any assistance given to an African country is primarily a waste of money or that it assists corruption. The challenge is not that the people involved in the programmes do not have confidence in their worth. I acknowledge that the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Kitt, has a long commitment and dedication to this area as well. The challenge is to allow or encourage argument and critique but also to have some kind of response dialogue that does not lead, as seems to happen at present, to the belief that all State assistance given to developing countries is somehow tainted by corruption and inevitable disaster whereas all private initiatives are inherently good, regardless of their quality, which is variable, as with State initiatives. We are committing a significant and important element of public policy and resources to that programme. It is to the Taoiseach's credit that he expanded the Irish Aid programme to the level it is at now. In terms of our European participation, that is an important element.

I wish the Taoiseach well in whatever role he will have in the future. I hope he gets time to walk around Dublin as a private citizen, aside from canvassing, which he will not have to do every day from now on. Equally, it would be interesting for him to experience the standard of public transport in Dublin. All parties in the Dáil share a common view that we would like Ireland to be a place in which it is attractive to live, work, rear a family and invest, but many of the young European migrants who have come to live in Dublin find issues such as our public transport, particularly on the northside, difficult. Many Government committees have oversight functions.

I would appreciate if the Deputy would take into consideration that we are working under a time constraint.

I would be grateful if the Taoiseach could give us insights into that matter.

I take advantage of the opportunity membership of this committee affords us on this historic day, the Taoiseach's last day in the House as Taoiseach, to join others in wishing him the very best for the future. I cannot think of any other Prime Minister or Head of State in Europe or beyond who could leave public life or move on from being leader of his or her country in the circumstances in which he departed from the Chamber today with the genuine goodwill that was clearly evident. It must be unique in democracies throughout the world with one minor insignificant exception this morning. Leaving that aside, I join others in wishing the Taoiseach the very best. He will be sorely missed in Limerick where, during the past four weeks since his announcement that he was leaving office, there have been expressions of goodwill and outpourings in his favour. I wish him well in the future.

To justify our existence and membership of this committee, I wish to ask the Taoiseach a question or make a comment, which his officials might take up regarding the Chief State Solicitor's office. My dealings with the office in recent years have led me to believe that it is under-resourced. Replies to correspondence are lengthy. Anybody who has assisted clubs in obtaining sports capital grants will tell one that even though the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism will provide generous funding, one can be blocked from drawing down that funding by the Chief State Solicitor's office because of the delays in completing legal documentation. There is no need for the Taoiseach to reply to that comment but his officials might note it and pass it down the line.

I echo the remarks of everybody around the table. The Taoiseach always attended this committee when invited to present his wares, the finances to be allocated and to be questioned on them. He took it all in good spirit and often there was an exchange of banter. I say well done to him.

The Taoiseach was a wonderful ambassador for Ireland. He did a great deal of good work. He introduced lower taxation, which was beneficial for the economy and assisted in driving it forward.

The Taoiseach was successful in keeping inter-party Governments together for a full term of five years, which no Taoiseach on the island of Ireland has achieved under our Constitution. He did that for a few terms.

His greatest achievement was his contact with the former President Clinton and former Prime Minister Blair in bringing the Northern Ireland issue to fruition. Ireland is a small country and it must be greatly admired that the Taoiseach, acknowledging his capacity and calibre as a leader, was able to harness the support of the former President Clinton and former Prime Minister Blair at a time when it was so necessary. That will go down in the history books as a big plus for Ireland and its Taoiseach of the time, Bertie Ahern. Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley were a handful at the time but he nursed and nurtured them, prayed and did a lot of work with them.

I thought the highlight of the Taoiseach's time as leader of this country would have been a future event. Given the success achieved in attaining peace on this island and our great relationship with the UK brought about after many years, given that we were under its rule for 800 years as we learned in our history books - the Taoiseach's father, who would have held a similar view to that of my own father in this respect, might not agree with what I am about to say - I would have thought that Queen Elizabeth's visit to Ireland must be imminent. I hoped that would be the culmination of the Taoiseach's time in office. When the day comes, I have no doubt the Taoiseach will be guest of honour and in a higher place on that platform, and that will be a proud day for him.

I have little more to say other than to wish the Taoiseach well in his retirement. I have no doubt he will not lose touch with public life because he has always been interested in those on the margins of our society. I wish him well and look forward to working with him and meeting him in the days ahead.

I take this opportunity to be associated with all the remarks made by everybody around the table. I thank the Taoiseach for what he has done for this country since he entered national politics back in 1977. It is probably an understatement to say that his achievements have been extraordinary; they have been more than that. Other people have alluded to those achievements, therefore I do not intend to go into all of them. From a personal point of view, I thank him for the support I got from him in the past. I have said that to him personally and I will always remember him for that.

Many people have been saying today that the Taoiseach will go on to do something else. He is a person who worked around the clock, 365 days a year and 366 if it happened to be a leap year. He will not be able to switch off and I am quite sure that whatever he intends to do, he will be very successful at it.

Deputy Burton mentioned that Dublin had not won an All-Ireland title during Deputy Ahern's time as Taoiseach. Perhaps, in the context of how successful he is at everything he does, it might be a good idea for him to take on the management of the Dublin football team. That could be a way to guarantee that the team will win an All-Ireland final. Perhaps he could take on both the football and hurling teams --

With Deputy Joan Burton as assistant manager.

I wish the Taoiseach and his family the very best, and hope all goes well with whatever he does in the future.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by everyone here today.

Earlier today it was inferred that the Taoiseach was lucky. I recall that something similar was said of Mr. Brian Clough when he successfully managed Nottingham Forest. It was a small club that punched way above its weight. He was asked how he was such a lucky manager and replied that the harder he worked, the luckier he got. The same applies to the Taoiseach. Any success he had has been as a result of hard work and commitment to the community. As a new Deputy, it is a great honour to be here today. I wish the Taoiseach and all his family the very best.

Will Deputy Kitt say if the ASC initiative will focus on older people? Older people are increasingly using mobile telephones. In Terenure an attempt is being made to run courses to enable older people to become more proficient in mobile telephone use. Will the Minister of State ensure that older people are a particular target of the ASC initiative?

I thank the Taoiseach for coming in here today, which cannot have been easy. I wish him well. I am a new Member of the House and wish to compliment him on the work he has done, particularly on Northern Ireland. The North has always been a cross-party issue. When Mr. John Bruton was Taoiseach, my party did a great deal of work and the Taoiseach brought that work to its conclusion. We now have peace on the island, which is fantastic and he must be congratulated on that.

On a lighter note, Dublin may have its difficulties but I presume the Taoiseach will watch Manchester United tonight. Let us hope they are successful against Barcelona.

I too commend and congratulate the Taoiseach on his lengthy public service and all of the great work he has done for the country, particularly the peace process, which will stand as part of his legacy. He will have the twins to look after, as well as managing Dublin. I have no doubt his work will be cut out for him and I wish him the best.

I call on Deputy Martin Mansergh who has had a long association with the Taoiseach.

I congratulate the Taoiseach on his outstanding achievements and his contribution to Irish history. We are looking at the Taoiseach in this committee in the context of his Department. He is very well served there, led by the Secretary General, Mr. Dermot McCarthy. One of the striking aspects of the Taoiseach's tenure was the extent to which he has taken the long-term view. He has made long-term plans which extend way beyond his period of office.

Students of Irish politics will know that up until now, the longest-serving Taoiseach in so-called "normal" conditions and certainly since the 1930s was Mr. Seán Lemass, who was in office for seven years. The Taoiseach provides a continuous 11 years for study. Obviously the crowning project was the peace process and the Good Friday Agreement. The Taoiseach gave an enormous amount of time to that task and displayed unique qualities. He was ably served by Mr. Paddy Teahon, Mr. Dermot Gallagher and Mr. Michael Collins and teams of officials from the Departments of Foreign Affairs, and Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The Taoiseach mentioned the Battle of the Boyne site in his address and I remember being sent off to trudge through rather sticky fields in County Meath in December 1997. It is very fitting that he completes his term of office as Taoiseach on the morning of 6 May by opening the site. It is something that brings together the different traditions on the island, peacefully, on what was once a major battleground. While I regard myself as belonging to a republican philosophy, one of my ancestors from County Armagh fought with King William on his charger. There is a sort of criss-cross in traditions in this country.

Social partnership has been sustained and, as was mentioned in the Dáil this morning, the Taoiseach was at the origin of that process as Minister for Labour in 1987. It has been sustained by him and his Department for 21 years. That is a major achievement although, as always, it faces major challenges in the future.

I do not know whether people fully appreciate the degree to which he has used Cabinet sub-committees and hearings with Ministers and Ministers of State to push forward the agenda, especially regarding improvements in infrastructure and social inclusion. Deputy Burton mentioned overseas development aid, with which Deputy Tom Kitt was also deeply involved. We are now spending well over the level of 0.5% of GDP, which is a major achievement.

I wish to make one point which goes against the received wisdom. While we talk about performance measurement and performance indicators and so forth, we must be conscious that the obverse side of that coin is more bureaucracy because people are required to make the measurements and analyse the indicators. We must determine whether that is really efficient and accept that sometimes we should simply trust people because the vast majority of them want to do a good job.

I wish the Taoiseach the very best in the years ahead. I am sure he will be doing useful and memorable work in many different fields.

I call on the Taoiseach to respond.

Thank you, Chairman. I will try to deal with some of the issues that were raised first.

The purpose of the output statements, which are only at an early stage - and I would not for a minute say we have perfected them yet - is to give more transparency to how the money allocated in the Estimate is spent to achieve the Department's strategic objectives. The difficulty in quantifying the outputs and outcomes achieved is recognised. It is a difficult task, as Deputy Burton has acknowledged. The process is relatively new and I hope that in future Departments will improve the methods of reporting to provide more useful information through an examination of the process. It is possible to improve it and come up with a more meaningful way of doing it. Nonetheless, we have made a significant start and, in fairness to Deputy Burton, she has been pressing this issue for some time.

Decentralisation was mentioned. Decentralised organisations have established a presence in 34 towns. Since the announcement of the programme, approximately 2,200 Civil Service and public service posts have been allocated outside Dublin. Approximately 5% of the Civil Service posts have been filled. Some staff are at the new locations and the remainder are being trained in advance of decentralisation. More than 11,000 civil and public servants have applied to be relocated under the programme, 55% of whom are based in Dublin. The OPW is working on property sites. The office has been efficient in securing suitable advance and temporary accommodation at 20 locations to facilitate the phased transfer of business units. I am the first to admit that it was slower than we had wanted but we also agreed it had to be done by negotiation. In doing so, it is a slower process.

The issue of the delays in processing lottery grants was raised recently. The Chief State Solicitor's office stated it would investigate any specific instance brought to its attention. I am very much aware of what Deputy Power is talking about and the problems that result for sports clubs. The fact that many grants have been to such clubs has created great pressure.

I thank members for their comments. I thank Deputy Burton for picking up on many issues close to my own heart regarding facilities. Whether it was Glenbeigh or Killarney, as opposed to Dublin, we have tried to provide facilities and have been lucky to have had the resources to invest in parks, many of which were under-resourced. We bought many estates in order that they could be developed, while also setting up the National Heritage Trust. It had to start somewhere with a small number of estates such as Fota but that was also the case in Northern Ireland and Great Britain. In time the trust will be a great success. I recall the controversies in Dublin Zoo every December when Mr. Wilson went on national radio to announce that the animals were starving because the zoo had no straw. At least we have been able to develop the zoo and many other facilities. Farmleigh House is open to the public, apart from international visits. However, the use of our parks is special. We are lucky that we have developed more open space. I was always conscious in my years as Taoiseach and Minister of Finance and when I was responsible for FÁS of promoting community projects to enhance facilities that otherwise would have not been developed. I hope that work continues.

I refer to Deputy Bruton's other question. I introduced the Public Service Management Bill in 1997 which had been drafted by the Government of which the Deputy was a member. Many of the provisions in the legislation have worked such as those relating to the customer service initiatives and cross-departmental committees which originate in my Department to maintain coherence in government. That process has developed and excellent work has been done in respect of information technology, including at Cabinet level. For example, as I informed the Dáil last week, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners must be unique internationally in that it is considered by business and the public as the most efficient organisation in the country. More than 90% of Revenue's business is conducted electronically. The making of grant payments to farmers was a hassle. Deputy Ned O'Keeffe and others lobbied me every Christmas because we could not issue payments and they sought to modernise the system. There is no problem with it now because modern technology is used. Most services and application forms required by farmers are available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. There have been huge successes. My Department is pressing the Department of Finance to provide more money for other Departments to increase investment in information technology. The e-Cabinet procedures save a great deal of time. Payment of salaries of staff in my Department was outsourced last year and we are now on the payroll of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We took on the services of the active citizen section in my Department with a reduced number of staff, which we were able to do by using technology to outsource services. I would not like to give the impression, however, that services have not improved by a huge amount.

Deputy Burton has rightly referred to reports by the Comptroller and Auditor General and others on projects that have been not been as successful. Perhaps insufficient preparation and effort were put into them and they were pushed onto the system because of a crisis or an issue which had arisen. However, we do not commit enough to the process of managing or directing complex change in some of the larger projects. A private sector company would bring in consultants and tee it up over a longer period. We do not prioritise enough to free up people within the system to get these whole Government issues right. The key civil servants in Departments, whether they are Secretary Generals, assistant secretaries or senior principal officers, are asked to undertake many other duties. They are not dedicated to a project team with nothing else on their minds and given a sabbatical of a year, for example, to work on it. They are asked to keep the system going. Under the health strategy and other projects, the teams did a great deal of effective work but they were asked to do this while keeping their fingers in the dyke dealing with day-to-day issues, being answerable to me as Taoiseach or the line Minister on other issues, taking in a working group in Brussels to tackle something not in the national interest or working on an OECD report. A private sector company would bring in a management consultant and key staff would be removed from the system. The same individuals would prepare background notes for parliamentary questions, for example, at the same time. It is not possible to do it that way.

With regard to the preparation of the national development plan, I quickly realised in 1997 that we could not handle the infrastructure programme in the way we were doing it. The Dublin-based Deputies on this committee, along with everyone else, will recall that we were dealing with the Luas, how we were going to get it to work and how we were going to deal with the cross-departmental and other issues. I set up the infrastructure committee, to which Deputy Mansergh kindly referred. I do not refer to it as a great idea but as essential. It brought together key Ministers, Ministers of State, Secretaries General and key officials in the system and in the sections. I have tried very hard to convince - I hope I have done so - public servants that they work for the Civil Service, the system and for the country and not a Department. I am not saying all the committees are perfect but we would not have reached the stage we reached with the national roads programme, the metro, the Luas, the Luas extensions and in a whole host of other areas if we did not have the Cabinet committee on infrastructure which brought people together.

On the regulatory impact analysis and other issues, there is still much to be done on updating legislation and making it more efficient. Deputy Mansergh raised the issue of bureaucracy in the system and noted that all this work leads to more work. I am not against that once we do not make it too difficult.

All my colleagues know I believe there is a very sad aspect to freedom of information. It is a bugbear of mine which everybody in the public service knows. Freedom of information brought openness and transparency to some things but it ended the wonderful practice of people across the system writing manuscript notes outlining their views. That was probably not intended by the legislation. One got those great manuscript notes from a range of people who cut the lard out of each other along the way but they gave one a great insight into their views. Now one gets the staid note which is perfect for investigation in any of the tribunals, which are well resourced, and which one could defend. That is a pity. Apart from anything else, it has probably affected the handwriting skills of a whole generation of public servants. We used to get these wonderful notes. I mention that because it is one of the reforms which was not good.

There was an examination a few years ago into whether freedom of information had changed the level of advice to Ministers. The results of that report do not line up with those of somebody who spent 19.5 years at the Cabinet table. I will say no more about it. I do not believe it can be addressed, but it is a difficulty.

Deputy Bruton has been very assiduous on the issue of public service reform during all my years here and I admire him in that regard. The OECD report, which we will launch next week, is good. Like all reports, its implementation will be the key issue. It is a whole Government review. I mentioned the pilot Departments, the effort put into it and to the senior people who engaged with us on it. We put much effort into it, as did senior colleagues in a number of Departments. It is a good report which outlines where we are and, far more importantly, how we move forward. I look forward to the new Government moving it forward and implementing it. It is enormously important. It interacts with our customer charters, all the various initiatives on regulatory impact assessments, trying to do away with much of the unnecessary bureaucracy, trying to streamline the system and Secretaries General working together in cross-departmental groups. It builds on all of that and on 15 years of this work. The point was made that we should have some private sector input into the effort. In fairness to civil servants, they would welcome private sector input.

In regard to planning, if one asked me if I was to do it all over again - I do not want to - I would say it is impossible to take a huge project and ask its main drivers - the planners, the thinkers behind it and those who have to deliver it - to also do a whole range of tasks. That is what we do. We could stay here for the night talking about why that is the case. In my experience, that is not fair and it is not feasible to get the required outcomes. That aspect must be worked on. If one wants to take on a project, one must take out a project team. That is done everywhere else.

The trouble with buying in the expertise is that the people on the inside, if they had the time, would be far better than any pumped up graduate out of college. People can have ten degrees to their names but they do not know how the system works. We all know that from our experiences as local authority or committee members. Experts can say and write things far better, but the question is whether they can implement a plan. The fact is they will not be able to do so.

I thank all the members for their kind comments. We have plenty of challenges ahead. I thank members for mentioning all the great success stories but there are challenges in the services and Deputy Burton has probably highlighted one the biggest ones. When I took over as Taoiseach just over 1% of the working population of this country were non-Irish, although I like to say "new Irish". Today the figure is 14.8%. That is a huge challenge to the system.

Last year I was in a school in Deputy Burton's constituency with 35 nationalities and 14 religions. These are huge new challenges. We are not experts on integration, in fact we have no expertise in this regard. Even as an island nation, we were not very good at integrating among ourselves. We cannot write the script on this and I certainly would not try to do so. We have good officials working with the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, and in structured dialogue with the churches. Yesterday, I met all the churches and the faith-based organisations. There was a full turnout of representatives of the traditional churches and the imams. By working with them, we can avoid problems but we must be very careful.

Needless to say, I have talked to every colleague in Europe and elsewhere about this issue. The problems arise not among the generation which arrives but among their children. That gives us some time, although not a lot. We must work really hard on that. Integration issues are crucial for us. There will be many successes and rewards from a good integration process. It will be good for the country and we will have excellent people. Many of these young people are as bright as a whistle. They will add greatly to the country but some will have difficulties and problems. We might not know how to handle those problems as well as we handle our own, which sometimes we do not handle very well. We must work very hard on this issue. It is already creating challenges in many parts of the country, mainly in the cities but also in rural areas. We should not try to be too politically correct or be afraid to say anything about integration issues in case it is seen as racist. That is the wrong policy. We should try to work out a resolution so that we can integrate. We should not be afraid to talk about the problems or difficulties, because not talking about them will not solve anything. It is important that committees and Members of the House get around that, which is the biggest challenge. Mr. Tony Blair and Mr. Gordon Brown say to me, as they watch the figures going up on the chart, that they have been at this for 60 years and are now at 10%. We have been at it for 12 years and are now at 15%. I do not think I need to say any more.

I thank members for the comments on Northern Ireland. I am delighted to be here in my last committee meeting and to see in the audience one of my great chums, buddies and battlers in war, Mr. John Hume. He has been a great help in everything to do with Northern Ireland and a great adviser to me. He got into as much trouble as anyone could because of his role in Northern Ireland and he always gave good advice on how I could keep out of it. He advised me that the Reverend Ian Paisley was a very nice fellow, that we were all wrong down here about that because he knew the man very well from Europe and all that was needed was to get to know him. I took his advice and now the Reverend Paisley and all of the others are great friends. I thank Mr. Hume for being here today and for all his help.

I wish the committee well and I am glad to see my Department did not spend too much money this year; we saved money which can be put down to the efficiency of my Secretary General and his staff. I thank them for carefully looking after the resources of the State under my Department. These people are extraordinary at keeping the expenses under control, but they do it in a way that keeps new initiatives moving.

I thank the Taoiseach for his attendance at the committee today, for his comprehensive responses and for the overview. It is now 5.40 p.m. and I know the Taoiseach has an appointment at 6 p.m. so he is excused and I wish him well.

The Taoiseach wishes to leave but I have one brief comment on Deputy Chris Andrews's specific question. The answer on the access, skills and content, ASC, initiative is "Yes". We will concentrate on older people in particular, informing them of the benefits of technology and mobile phones. We will carry out a mobile phone pilot scheme for older people. There is much we can do and we are concentrating on this area.

I thank the Taoiseach and the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, and the officials in assisting the committee with the consideration of the Estimates.

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