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Select Committee on Foreign Affairs díospóireacht -
Thursday, 12 May 1994

Conflict in Rwanda.

Chairman

I thank Deputy Owen for chairing yesterday's meeting in my absence. An excellent resolution on Rwanda incorporating the views expressed yesterday has been forwarded to the Minister for Foreign Affairs. Paragraph 3 of the resolution calls on the UN, the Organisation of African Unity and, in particular, the countries in the region to make every effort to help the warring parties in Rwanda agree to a ceasefire. Paragraph 8 calls on the European Union and the UN to provide immediately and unconditionally adequate supplies and logistical support for the relief of refugees and displaced persons. There is more in this resolution which may or may not be accepted, but it incorporates the thrust of what was expressed. I propose that we agree to it before we move on. Agreed.

Vote 38 — Foreign Affairs (Revised Estimate).

Chairman

I welcome the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Spring, and the Minister of State, Deputy T. Kitt, and their officials. This is the second meeting on the Estimates and we propose to follow the format agreed last year. Members have the working arrangements for the day, which will commence with an opening statement from the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs, followed by statements from the various party spokespersons. I propose that we first raise at 11 a.m. specific budgetary issues and that we take — questions on the various subheads in the Estimates. We will take subheads A and B under Vote 39 with Vote 38 because they are relevant to the Tánaiste. These subheads under the International Co-operation Vote relate to contributions to international organisations and the conference on security and co-operation in Europe.

The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs will answer questions in a composite manner and at 11.30 a.m. we will deal with policy issues on two broad fronts, Northern Ireland and international political issues, including the EU. There will be a sos from 12.30 p.m. until 1 p.m. The Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, will then deal with development and co-operation issues, following a similar procedure. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I am pleased to participate again this year in the discussions on the Votes for Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation. When we met for the Estimates last year, the Select Committee was still in its early days. Its deliberations over the past 12 months have established a key role for it and have helped to ensure that important foreign policy issues receive the attention and informed debate they deserve. My Department has warmly welcomed the opportunity to participate in many of the committee's discussions and we look forward to the continued interchange of information and ideas.

There have been some significant milestones over the past year and I will identify a few. The Maastricht Treaty, with all its economic and political implications, has come into force. Agreement has been reached with the applicant countries on the terms of their accession to the EU. On Northern Ireland, the Downing Street Declaration has given new impetus to the search for peace and highlighted as never before the overriding importance of bringing an end to violence and terrorism. On development co-operation, we have honoured the commitment in the Programme for a Partnership Government to increase substantially our development aid budget.

It has been a year of vivid and contrasting images. The scenes of unrestrained joy in South Africa this week were moving and unforgettable. New hope for the Middle East emerged with the historic handshake on the White House lawn last September. Important, if less spectacular progress was made in a number of other conflicts around the world.

Regrettably, the darker images are there also. The ongoing tragedy of the former Yugoslavia is etched on the conscience of the international community. In the past few weeks, the terrible scale of the carnage in Rwanda has been sickening to contemplate. The litany of places of suffering and human rights violations is a long and grim one.

In the attempt to build a new world order, the international community is grappling with the most fundamental dilemmas in areas such as peace-keeping, human rights observance and how to tackle hunger and deprivation on the vast scale necessary. There is no monopoly of wisdom in any of these areas and that is why I believe so strongly in the need for wide consultation in charting a way forward for our foreign policy. As the committee knows, I intend to produce a White Paper on Foreign Policy early next year. I would particularly value the input of the committee and have written to the chairman, Deputy Lenihan, on this matter. So as to ensure the widest possible contributions, I have contacted about 70 organisations around the country inviting their views and my Department is working on the organisation of a number of seminars in the latter part of this year.

On the 1994 Estimates, the committee will appreciate that the Foreign Affairs Vote, accounting this year for about half of 1 per cent of the Government's annual non-capital expenditure, represents a relatively small slice of Government spending. Given the limited size of the allocation, we have had to intensify our efforts and resolve to keep the Department's operations and activities under constant financial review to ensure that whatever is spent is spent effectively, to best advantage and with maximum efficiency in resource allocation.

Most of the allocation — over 96 per cent — is required for the Department's administrative budget. This covers salaries of staff at headquarters and at missions abroad as well as travel, accommodation, communications, equipment and supplies. The demands on our limited resources are increasing, both because of an expanded international workload and because the cost increases we must bear in running our missions and conducting our operations abroad are in many cases well in excess of the prevailing levels at home. We are nevertheless complying with the obligation to achieve real savings annually on our core administrative budget.

The basic requirement that any additional activity — including, for example, the opening of a new mission abroad — must be achieved within existing resources is increasingly confronting us with very hard choices in the ordering of our priorities. As part of the selective and necessarily modest expansion of our small diplomatic network, I am delighted that South Africa has now been added to the countries in which Ireland has a resident mission. The committee is also aware that last year we opened a resident mission in Helsinki, in view of that country's application for membership of the European Union.

In relation to the very small proportion of the Vote accounted for by programme expenditure, I am happy that despite our overall budgetary difficulties it has proved possible this year to provide increases in a number of the subheads concerned. I am sure that members will particularly welcome the increased resources being allocated for North-South and Anglo-Irish co-operation in view of the very valuable work being done by the organisations assisted.

The conflict in Northern Ireland continues to cast a dark cloud over the life and development of this nation and to sap the energy and spirit of all our people. I am absolutely convinced that a resolution of that conflict would release a powerful force for growth in every part of this island and I am determined to do everything I can to secure such a resolution. No matter how long it takes, no matter how many times we have to restart our efforts, we will never give up the attempt to build a peaceful and secure future for all the people of this island. The Joint Declaration signed last December has finally dismantled all arguments based on the use or support of violence. For paramilitaries on all sides it sets out a simple choice—murder or democracy. For the vast majority of the Irish people there is only one possible choice and only one possible course for the paramilitaries to take.

They say they need clarification. So be it. Both Governments have made strenuous efforts, consistent with principle, to clear up any possible misunderstanding and to clarify and explain any aspect of the declaration that might cause difficulty. Both Governments have said that they are prepared to address any further realistic request. We must lay to rest any notion that progress towards peace is stalled because the Government somehow failed to meet any genuine request for an explanation of their policy or position.

Neither Government will compromise in any way any of the principles set out in the declaration. However, I know that every Member of the House will wish to be absolutely sure that no stone was left unturned in the effort to explain and to clarify so that the principles of self determination and consent underpinning the declaration are fully understood. For that reason I feel sure that every Member of the House would welcome one final effort to provide any genuine clarification sought or needed.

Side by side with the effort to remove violence from the conflict, we are also working with the British Government to try to build a framework within which a deep and lasting accommodation of the conflict itself can be developed. That framework would aim to translate the principles of the declaration into agreed political structures.

Building such a framework is no easy task. The best efforts of the two Governments will be required, with openness and imagination and a firm sense of purpose and vision, if we are to put something together that can both challenge and attract the political parties in Northern Ireland. We want to attract them into using the democratic process to build something that will make the future secure for everyone. We want to challenge them into using rights and identities, heritage and aspirations, as building bricks rather than as barriers.

Officials of both Governments are at present engaged in an intensive process aimed at building that framework. They are working, tragically, against the background of the recent sickening upsurge in terror, murder and suffering. Not only does this recent spate of violence make both Governments more determined than ever to ensure that violence will never prevail, it also reminds us ever more forcibly of the obligation on us to put aside preconceived ideas of how progress can be built and to bend all our efforts to try to arrive at a deep and well balanced settlement.

While the prospects for peace and political agreement are at the top of my agenda, I am continuing to make full use of the Anglo-Irish Conference and its mechanisms to work for progress on a wide range of issues to which the Government attaches profound importance. These include public confidence in the security forces and the administration of justice in Northern Ireland, parity of esteem between the two traditions in Northern Ireland and North-South co-operation in the economic and social sphere. I am deeply committed to making progress under the Anglo-Irish Agreement in relation to these matters for the benefit of all the people of Ireland.

In relation to the European Union, the immediate focus is on completing the current enlargement process. Ireland for its part worked hard towards achieving a successful conclusion of the negotiations. As the committee knows, there is a long history of mutually friendly relations with the accession countries and we share a similarity of views on a whole range of issues on the European and international agenda. I have no doubt that their accession on 1 January next will help strengthen the Union as we face the challenges of the coming century.

It is also incumbent on us to begin now the necessary process of deliberation and reflection in preparation for the Intergovernmental Conference in 1996, when important policy areas will be reviewed. We have to address the question of the kind of Europe we want, post-Maastricht, and how this might best be achieved. Institutional change, for instance, will clearly be necessary to cope with changing needs, including those arising from future enlargements; but it will be essential to get the balance right and to preserve the principle of partnership that has been the real success of the Union to date.

The question of the further enlargement of the Union must also be addressed. The European Council — indeed the Maastricht Treaty itself— has recognised that enlargement cannot stop with our EFTA neighbours but must in time be open, as of right, to other Europeans who are ready and able to take part in building a viable Union.

The year 1996 will also bring a review of the Common Foreign and Security Policy. I know that this is a matter of deep interest to the committee and it will be one of the central themes of the White Paper. The fluidity of the present "security architecture" in Europe was emphasised this week when Sweden and Finland joined NATO's "Partnership of Peace Initiative" and a number of former Warsaw Pact countries became "associate partners" in the Western European Union.

Ireland will of course be deeply involved in the 1996 negotiations and ultimately the Irish people will decide whether or not Ireland should take part in any arrangements agreed. Although it would be premature at this stage to predict the precise shape of the Union's future defence arrangements, it might be useful to sketch out some of the considerations which will be taken into account.

First, the policy will need to be based on a broad definition of security interests, including non-proliferation, conflict prevention, peacekeeping, as well as human rights and economic and environmental security. Security in the new Europe is indivisible. It must be based on an up-to-date and relevant assessment of Europe's security needs. This will entail looking beyond the threats of the Cold War era to the new risks arising from our contemporary situation. Such as minorities issues, ethnic unrest and border difficulties. It will need to be responsive to the need for inclusiveness, partnership and co-operation. As I have said before, we must, above all, not reconstruct old divisions or rebuild old walls on our continent.

I mentioned earlier the ongoing crisis in former Yugoslavia. Last month's violent events in Gorazde represented an unwelcome setback to the peace process. We must not, however, allow this to deflect our attention from what has been achieved since the beginning of the year. The major conflict in Bosnia over the last nine months — that between the Croats and Muslims in central Bosnia — has been brought to an end. While still besieged, Sarajevo is at least no longer being shelled; a ceasefire in Croatia is holding and forces are withdrawing from the confrontation lines there. It is on these successes that we must now build. The European Union, Russia, the US and the UN must now press for a general ceasefire and for an urgent return to negotiation of an overall settlement.

Ireland is actively engaged in the European Union's efforts to bring peace to the region. The International conference on former Yugoslavia continues to provide the framework for a negotiated settlement for the problems of the Yugoslav region. European Union member states are contributing some 15,000 personnel to UNPROFOR. Approximately 65 per cent of the total cost of the humanitarian aid operation has been provided by the European Union and its member states. At the request of the Bosnian Muslims and Croats, the European Union has agreed in principle to administer the town of Mostar.

The committee is fully familiar with Ireland's contribution on the ground; 38 members of the Defence Forces are serving with UNPROFOR, the European Union monitor mission and the European Union task force on humanitarian aid. Irish personnel are also serving with the CSCE sanctions assistance missions which are deployed in the area to bolster the implementation of the sanctions against Serbia and Montenegro. In addition, we are providing assistance to the victims of the conflict — some £1.7 million to date by way of humanitarian aid. We have given shelter to refugees and medical care for the wounded and we are supporting the work of the international tribunal to prosecute the perpetrators of war crimes.

Unfortunately, Bosnia is not the only place where people are dying at the hands of their neighbours. There are many such places — far too many — but one stands out by virtue of the savagery of the conflict which has occurred there. I refer to the carnage and anarchy in Rwanda. I am aware that the committee has been actively considering what action the international community might take in the face of the tragedy and the contribution that Ireland itself might make and I have noted the terms of the resolution finalised by the committee at its meeting yesterday afternoon.

I strongly support the efforts of President Mwinyi of Tanzania and of the Secretary General of the Organisation of African Unity, Mr. Salim Ahmed Salim, to mediate in the Rwandan crisis. As I said on the adjournment debate on 5 May, the United Nations and the OAU and the countries in the region must make every effort to help the two warring parties in Rwanda agree to a ceasefire. The Security Council should review the mandate of UNAMIR and should also consider the application of an arms embargo to Rwanda. This action should be taken in addition to the increase in humanitarian aid in the area. I would also support a visit to the area by the UN Commissioner for Human Rights and an early meeting of the UN Commission on Human Rights in Geneva. Ireland has given over £500,000 from the emergency humanitarian assistance fund to help the victims of the conflict.

I referred earlier to the situation in the Middle East and South Africa as providing some points of light in a rather sombre international landscape. The signing of the declaration of principles on interim self-government arrangements by Israel and the PLO in Washington last September and last week's agreement in Cairo on interim Palestinian autonomy have been the most important positive developments in the region for decades.

Ireland fully supports the Middle East peace process — politically and economically. Our UNIFIL troop contingent — this country's largest contribution to UN peacekeeping — has been maintained since 1978. We have more than doubled our aid contribution to the West Bank and Gaza in 1994 to US$1.2 million or £830,000. We have also offered to train members of the new Palestinian police force at the Garda Training College in Templemore. Ireland is also participating in the five working groups established in the multilateral track of the Middle East peace process, which deal broadly with regional economic, security and environmental concerns and with refugees.

The inauguration of Mr. Nelson Mandela as President of South Africa on Tuesday was one of the great and uplifting events of this century. Ireland demonstrated support for last month's elections by sending over 100 observers to the country — of which 22 were Members of the Oireachtas, including some from this committee — to participate in various monitoring missions, including the European Union Observer Mission. I was happy to visit South Africa earlier this year in support of the peace process and for talks with the parties involved. Over the period ahead Ireland will continue to develop its relations with the new South Africa and will join with its partners in the EU in helping with the reintegration of South Africa into the international community.

Subheads A and B of the International Co-operation Vote deal with our contributions to international organisations. The principal component here remains our contribution to the UN; whether the estimated provision of £5.73 million will prove sufficient will not be clear until later this year. The dramatic growth in peacekeeping expenditure by the UN in recent years has made it almost impossible to forecast accurately the extent of our assessed contribution to the peacekeeping budget.

Events over the past year in the former Yugoslavia and Somalia have influenced the continuing debate about the peacekeeping role of the United Nations. I am aware that this question is under active examination at the UN Sub-Committee of the Committee and I look forward to seeing its final report in due course. The optimism of just a year or two ago is now tempered by a more cautious and critical approach. The continuing financial problems faced by the UN have also contributed to the sense of uncertainty.

There are now 18 UN operations in the field with nearly 80,000 peacekeepers and associated personnel deployed worldwide, including about 900 Irish men and women who serve in ten of these operations. The cost of this global commitment is running at about $3 billion annually, of which Ireland's share this year is estimated at about £4.7 million. A number of lessons have already been drawn by member states as experiences of UNOSOM II in Somalia and UNPROFOR in the former Yugoslavia are absorbed. I particularly welcome the renewed emphasis on traditional peacekeeping which is a feature of the most recent extension of the UNOSOM II mandate. Ireland is now the only western country and member state of the EU still serving with UNOSOM.

Yet peacekeeping is not the only subject of debate in the UN as it prepares to celebrate its 50th anniversary next year and we in Ireland our 40th year as a member state. The question of institutional reform is also to the fore. Ireland has already submitted proposals designed to enhance the representative charcter of the Security Council and is working to secure greater accountability by the Council to the UN membership generally. We strongly believe, however, that any proposals in this regard must not result in any impairment of the Council's effectiveness.

The current debate on this issue involves a fundamental review of all aspects of the Security Council, with literally hundreds of proposals on the table. It will only be possible to make a commitment to detailed proposals when the picture of what is beneficial to the UN and to Ireland and feasible within the constraints of the Charter have become clearer. Moreover, to make a firm commitment now could hinder our capacity to play a mediating role in the debate, which countries like Ireland are well equipped to do. I intend to announce shortly the memberhip of a national committee to prepare our own programme of events to mark the 50th anniversary of the UN in 1995.

Subheads C to J of the International Co-operation Vote relate to development co-operation and there are large increases in most of the subheads. These increases are the tangible proof of the Government's solidarity with those who live in poverty and need throughout the developing world. They show that we have not reneged on our pledge to increase our official development assistance substantially. In 1993 ODA was increased by £13 million compared to the previous year; in the Estimates for 1994 we are providing a further increase of £17 million. This means that funding for development assistance has increased by some £30 million since this Government took office. That is a significant increase which will be welcomed by members of this committee.

Given the expansion of the aid programme and the calls for a policy statement on development co-operation, I felt it was appropriate to set out our plans in public. Last July I launched the strategy plan which detailed the ways in which it was proposed that the expanded aid programme could be implemented. I am happy to say that the strategy plan received support across a broad spectrum in the Dáil and from development experts. Work is now well under way to implement the provisions of the strategy plan. My colleague the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, will provide details of the activities we are engaged in under the various subheads when he speaks about the International Co-operation Vote.

I would like to say something about the philosophy which underlines our approach to development co-operation. Increased funding for ODA will bring our performance to a level which is on a par with that of our European partners. The strategy plan spells out the sectors and the manner in which the money will be spent. I am aiming for transparency as to how the ODA money is spent and to return a sense of ownership of the aid programme to the public and, especially, to the practitioners of development co-operation. This I believe we are doing.

That is by no means all there is to development co-operation. It is time to take a hard look at our relationship with the developing world, to ask ourselves what we hope to achieve and to subject even our most cherished views to careful scrutiny. Development co-operation does not exist in isolation but is part of the fabric of international relations and must be considered in that context. A section of the forthcoming White Paper on Foreign Policy will be devoted to development co-operation and the nongovernmental organisations, which have built up so much experience in this field, will be among those I will consult before the White Paper is drawn up.

The successful conclusion of the Uruguay Round must constitute one of the most significant events in the world economy in recent years. The OECD has estimated that net world welfare will increase by $270 billion by 2002 through the implementation of the Uruguay Round. Such a level of growth should prove to be of importance to the European Union in its task of boosting employment and in consolidating and improving the situation of its citizens. On the bilateral front, the promotion of Ireland's trade and other economic interests abroad remains a key objective of my Department and its mission abroad. Working closely with other Government Departments and with the State promotional agencies, we are ensuring that our diplomatic network is fully exploited to promote trade, investment and tourism.

I am acutely conscious that we are entering a period in which a number of issues which are crucial to the future of this island and its place in Europe and the wider world require to be seriously and honestly debated and necessary decisions taken. The committee is already deeply engaged in examining many of these questions and I look forward to its continuing contribution. I will be happy to answer any questions which the committee may have with regard to the Votes here presented.

On a point of order, Chairman, there is a difficulty in holding the meeting on a Dáil sitting day and at 10 a.m. in that I must go to the House for the Order of Business. Would the committee agree that the spokesman for the Progressive Democrats would make his statement first and that I would make mine when I return. I should be back within 15 minutes.

If the Deputy must lead her party on the Order of Business, then she should.

Chairman

Certainly. We will go on to the opening statement of the Progressive Democrats.

The Progressive Democrats are happy with the existence of this committee and its functioning since it was established. This committee is the one which is least divided on party lines, the most constructive in its procedures and the most open to participation by all of its members. The manner in which the committee functions is a model for other committees of the Oireachtas. It has a bureau which effectively allows for all of the participants in the committee, on an informal basis through party representatives, to have a say in the agenda and the activities of the committee.

On behalf of the Progressive Democrats I welcome the way in which the Chairman has chaired the committee. We also welcome the openness and success with which its activities have been met in the various fields it has investigated.

Having made those positive statements, there are problems which also have to be borne in mind. This committee is charged with the supervision and superintendence of delegated legislation under the European Communities Acts. This is important, particularly in the context of the European election. We are supposed to be the committee which, through a subcommittee, monitors EU regulations, makes recommendations about them to the Dáil and keeps a watchful eye on what is done, by way of delegated legislation by Ministers in implementing EU obligations. Since this committee has been established — indeed since this Dáil has reconvened — there has not been a single occasion on which any member of this committee or subcommittee has examined any delegated legislation. That is a serious shortcoming with our parliamentary democracy.

There is now, in effect, no accountability on delegated legislation made by Ministers under the European Communities Acts. That was almost inevitable because this committee was wrongly married to that function; they are disparate functions. There is no reason why a Foreign Affairs Committee should have any special competence to deal with, for example, agricultural, industrial or employment regulations and to warn the House of their implications. This was a mistake and a piece of bureaucratic expediency which, in the last analysis, has proved to be misguided. The important functions of this committee, which are the monitoring of foreign policy and affairs in Northern Ireland, have taken precedence. The other function, which is less glamorous but is equally an essential part of our democratic functioning, has been put to one side. There must be a separate Oireachtas European legislative committee. There is no alternative to this. This committee should tell the House at some stage in the near future that the matter requires the attention of a separate committee. We, as a committee, have our hands full with this material. There is no realistic prospect of us turning our minds in any comprehensive way towards dealing with that other function with which we are charged.

I have informally raised this matter with you, Chairman. You agree that if one is serious about the function of delegated EU legislation, regulations and directives, one should not deal with them until the statutory instrument was handed down from the Department. If one was serious about the matter, one would look at the instrument in draft form and there would be a procedure where one would be consulted before it became law. If one was serious about preserving the national interest in the face of EU directives and regulations, this Oireachtas, like other European parliaments, would have a procedure where draft regulations and directives at European level were considered in advance by members of the parliament.

Chairman

We raised that issue with Commissioner Pinero and discussed it with him and his representatives when they attended this committee.

I know you support this point completely, Chairman. I am not being critical or divisive. We can all learn from this experience. All members of the committee would be of the view that it would be better to have a separate committee whose function was to look at draft EU legislation coming through the EU pipeline and its Irish implementation. We are not currently fulfilling that function. It ought to be done by somebody in this House. It requires a lot of hard work and commitment — I do not suggest that it can be easily done. The Danish Parliament has an EU committee from which most members of our Government would shy away. It is required to consult in advance with that committee before going to a council meeting. Without suggesting anything so horrendous to members of either the present or last Government, the least they might do is to consider having an effective EU legislative committee.

This committee has undertaken a great amount of useful work on Northern Ireland. The Department has been party to the peace initiative, based on the Downing Street Joint Declaration. I have concluded, I have not kept quiet about. it, that the declaration's main value lies — and it is of tremendous value — in exposing the myth that the conflict there lies between Ireland and the United Kingdom. It has now clearly disposed of that myth and focused the attention of all on these islands on the proposition that this conflict is between the Nationalist and the Unionist communities. It is no longer in Britain's strategic or selfish interest to prop up one side against another.

The emphasis on the Government's approach post-Downing Street was misguided. There was a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Provisional movement was likely to do. This arose from misinformation given to the Government by those who were overoptimistic about the nature of the Provisional movement, their aims and methods. I am convinced, and so is my party, that throughout the post-Downing Street period/the Provisional movement has been confronted with one problem. Unless they have the end of what they term the "Unionist veto" guaranteed to them in some way and get a signal that Northern Ireland's connection with Britain has a limited shelf life with a remote possibility of its continuance, a significant proportion of them will not agree to any solution or settlement. Many refer to the danger of a split in the Provisional movement, as if it would worsen the situation. I have never been convinced that there is much danger of such a split. First, the dove faction would not last long politically in any event. Second, all of the movement is convinced that its unity is its strength and its attachment to violence is its main form of leverage. It will not give up for anything short of these two ultimate demands.

It has been an error of this Government to pursue so single-mindedly an accommodation with the Provisionals at a time when there has been another agenda, which unfortunately seems to be receding somewhat. I fully accept the Tánaiste's commitment to the process of constitutional mediation and the political process in Northern Ireland. However, that process suffered a setback during the period between January and March of this year. That was done on the basis of a misjudgment, primarily in Dublin, as to the potential for bringing the Provisional movement into the peace tent.

I know it is easy in hindsight to criticise and to point out how matters might have been done differently. However, it is also fair to say that a considerable number of people at the time, including those of my party, emphasised the danger and wrongheadedness of a single-minded pursuit of the Provisionals at the expense of keeping the lines of communication open with the Official Unionist Party.

I also signal my strongest feelings of support for the Alliance Party in Northern Ireland. It has had a difficult task in standing up for its principles in an increasingly polarised situation. It is easy for us in the South to identify with the SDLP and to believe that the Alliance Party occupies an ineffectual centre ground, a no man's land between two factions, which has no value.

However, it is within the terms of the philosophy articulated by the Alliance Party that a settlement will ultimately be achieved. The party does not consist of the wimps in the middle, or the no man's land occupants who are insignificant as small players on a large pitch; rather it is the harbinger and forebear of what will be the basis on which settlement will be achieved in Northern Ireland.

Liberal principles must be applied to Northern Ireland. In order to achieve an accommodation, the people involved, especially those occupying roles such as the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach, must stand aside from Nationalism, must ask Unionists to stand aside from Unionism and must ask both communities to see the issue on a higher plane. This is not mere intellectualism or an academic approach, rather it is a request to both communities to establish as a first principle that they have more in common than divides them, that reconciliation of the two communities and peace are a higher value than any of the political values that either side espouses and that Nationalism and Unionism must take second place to peace and reconciliation in Northern Ireland. Unless the situation in Northern Ireland is approached in a frame of mind which acknowledges that a solution can only be found on a plane different from the approach of either party left to themselves and on the basis that the other side's viewpoint is worthy of respect, then there is no opportunity or possibility of achieving genuine reconciliation.

I frequently encounter the view — and it is a view that is expressed from one side of the Oireachtas — that those in the south who attempt to understand and respect Unionism are pro-Unionist or neo-Unionist. I have no difficulty in asserting that I believe in a United Ireland, that some day it may be possible to reconcile the former adherents to Unionism and Nationalism in a single state or single political community on this island and that this is desirable. However, I regject the notion that because in the meantime I adhere to the proposition that I must attempt to understand and to respect the opposite viewpoint I am in some sense an adherent of that viewpoint. I am not.

There is a strong tendency in the approach of a number of people in the State to the northern problem to consider Unionism as a corrupt and exploitative attitude of mind, one which is based entirely on prejudice, is illicit in its fundamental underpinnings, is a way of keeping other people down, is an-attachment to Britain which is cupboard love, is without genuine value or commitment, and, in the last analysis, is not seriously worthy of consideration as an equal philosophy or political outlook on this island. This is a fundamental error in our approach to Unionism and it is something we must all kick out of ourselves in our dealings with Northern Ireland, because it has been educated and bred into us that Unionism is fundamentally an aberration, that it is fundamentally wrong and that it is fundamentally a cynical, exploitative and discriminatory viewpoint devoid of merit in its own right.

If the Government demonstrates a capacity to respect the Unionist community and its aims, and publicly demonstrates that it has abandoned the notion that Unionism is fundamentally in error and morally compromised, then there may be an opportunity to achieve an atmosphere in which reconciliation is possible. Likewise, if the rhetoric of the Government is not so much the rhetoric of horse traders, promising to give this and do that, to be generous in dealings and so on, but more oriented towards trying to establish on this island a consensus that the Nationalist/Unionist conflict in Northern Ireland has to be resolved in terms of a different set of values and at a different level from the historical backgrounds of either community, then there would be some prospect of success.

Death of British Labour Party Leader.

Chairman

I must ask you to conclude because an unfortunate matter has occurred to which the Tánaiste wishes to refer. The last time we met John Smith MP, who has died in London, we were considering this matter.

I have to inform the committee of very sad news. We have just received word from London that John Smith, leader of the British Labour Party, apparently had a massive heart attack this morning and died. It is a terrible tragedy, politically and personally. I knew John quite well and worked with him for a number of years in the organisation comprising the European socialist parties.

This news will be a great blow to all of his colleagues, both in the UK and in the Irish political system. On behalf of the Government, we extend our deepest sympathy to his wife, family and his colleagues in the British Labour Party and in public life in the UK. It is a terrible tragedy.

Speaking as leader of the Labour Party in Ireland, I worked with John on the European front and on Anglo-Irish relations. I found him to be a man of deep caring and understanding regarding our problems, which we had the opportunity to discuss on many occasions. He had recently visited Dublin to meet the Government and Opposition parties.

I looked forward to John having a very successful future in British politics, and this news is a tragic blow to politics. On my own behalf and on behalf of the Government I extend our deepest sympathy.

Chairman, you may wish to consider whether the committee continues or adjourns as a mark of respect. I am amenable to the wishes of the committee on this matter.

I am amenable to adjourning the meeting as a mark of respect to John Smith and I join with the Tánaiste in his remarks. On the occasions on which I met him, in the company of the Tánaiste, he demonstrated a huge sense of concern for this country and a great level of understanding. If he had become the Prime Minister of the UK he was a person in whom this country would have had great confidence in his approach to and in his capacity to deal with our problems.

It would be appropriate for the meeting to adjourn. I am not aware if the Tánaiste's timetable requires that the committee deals with the Estimates later today or have the matter postponed for another day.

I suggest that the committee adjourns for an hour as a mark of respect and then endeavour to resume its timetable.

Chairman

I agree with the suggestion that the committee adjourn until 12 o'clock and then continues with the framework of the meeting but cut down on the speaking time and operate accordingly.

This news is an enormous shock. On his recent meeting in Dublin I met John Smith with the Tánaiste, Deputy M. McDowell and other members of the committee. I found him to be very alert, using that challenging mind of his to cope with Anglo-Irish problems and the problems of Northern Ireland. In this respect he will be a real loss. He was shaping British politics in a constructive way. His death is a great tragedy. I will convey the loss the committee feels to the appropriate people in London.

On behalf of the Fine Gael Party I join with these expressions of sympathy to the wife and family of John Smith, who died so tragically at an untimely young age. I never encountered John Smith other than on the television. I was always impressed with his performance and with his understanding of Ireland and the world. He was clearly a man of the world and a true internationalist. His loss to British politics is great. He is a great loss to his party, which is doing very well in public opinion polls and he could have looked forward to a bright political future. I join with all the other members of the committee in expressing sympathy, on behalf of my party and myself, to his family and his colleagues in public life in the United Kingdom.

I have no difficulty with the chairman's suggestion that we should adjourn for at least an hour. However, I think we should be flexible and not lose an hour from our work. There are many things we would like to tease out. Chairman, as we will lose time now, I ask that you will not be absolutely strict in regard to allowing us extra time towards the end of our business.

Chairman

We can cancel the sos and reschedule our arrangements. We will resume at 12 noon.

Sitting suspended at 10.50 a.m. and resumed at 12 noon.
Vote 38 — Foreign Affairs (Resumed).

I said what I had to say about Northern Ireland and I will not elaborate further. However, it is very important that we start off in the right frame of mind, and there is evidence that some people involved in the process are not operating from the right intellectual, historical and political perspective.

With regard to the security issues of the European Union, my party has taken the view that what the late Seán Lemass said in relation to Europe is true. When Ireland indicated in 1962 its intention to join the European Economic Communities, as it then was, it proposed to participate in it fully and without any reservations and, to use Seán Lemass' phrase, that applied equally to defence. The common security and defence aspects of the European Union are aspects in which we must participate fully.

That does not mean that we have to join the NATO alliance but it does mean that since the treaty on European Union falls to be revised in a couple of years time, Ireland should be a full member of that European Union with a view of participating on a full membership basis in the development of the Western European Union. Ireland has also a role to play in perhaps joining the NATO Partnership for Peace which has already attracted applications to join from Sweden and Finland. Those countries, in particular, have a long and honourable tradition of neutrality to which this country has often pointed in the past as a model for ourselves. I cannot understand in these circumstances why we are lagging at the rear in participating in European structures and institutions which are designed to create a common security area.

Ireland is a small country with an entire population smaller than that of some European cities and our logistical and Defence Forces capacity is limited. However, there is a role which we can play in European security without transforming ourselves into a major player on the military field.

One of my proposals is that consideration should be given by the Irish Government to the establishment of something equivalent to the US coast guard — a European maritime security agency, which would be partly based in this country and in which we would participate fully, in relation to air sea rescue, interdiction of drug smuggling and other smuggling activities, maritime environmental surveillance and fisheries protection, among other functions. Ireland could participate in a meaningful way and could be host to facilities for such a European maritime security agency, much along the lines of the US coast guard. Most people in this country would feel that that was an appropriate area for Ireland to contribute to European security.

In relation to land based security operations, again the limitations of our Defence Forces are such that it is unlikely that they would be able to play a leading role at any time in peace enforcement activities engaged in by the European Union, should we come to that. However, we can play a role in relation to medical and humanitarian assistance in the context of such operations. If we were to make it known to our fellow member states that we would participate in those specialised functions and that that would flow from our membershp of the Western European Union, what we have to say on those operations and their desirability on occasions such as in Bosnia would carry a good deal more weight.

Ireland must play a full role in the development of a common security and defence policy by the European Union in the context of the forthcoming intergovernmental council meeting in 1996. Since the Maastricht Treaty, to which we are a party, acknowledged that the Western European Union was an integral part of the development of the European Union in its security function, Ireland should play a full role in that. We should be willing to consider going further in making positive proposals as to how this country can shoulder some of the burden of common European security and some participative role where we can make a useful contribution other than a paper one.

The time has come for us to bring this whole issue of neutrality one stage further; to acknowledge that what Seán Lemass said in 1962 is fundamentally correct; to acknowledge that there is nothing about Ireland which differentiates it from Austria, Sweden and Finland in this matter and that we, as a country, are not semi-detached from the European Union on the security and foreign policy issues. To encapsulate it in one sentence: a Europe worth joining is also a Europe worth defending.

As I was missing earlier, I wish to add my words of sympathy and shock at the death of John Smith, the leader fo the British Labour Party. His loss will be felt enormously, not only by the Labour Party in Britain but by all politicians around the world, because he had proved himself to be an effective and caring leader of his party.

I am glad of an opportunity to speak on these Estimates. Last year was the first time since this committee as set up that the Estimates were debated in committee. However, on a rather discordant note, could I ask that in future — as I understood was to be the case — our Estimates meetings would not clash with Dáil sitting days. This is for two reasons: not least that our responsibilities are divided but also because the whole idea of having Estimates discussed at a committee was to increase the knowledge of the committee members but also to raise the profile of the issues of foreign affairs with the public. If we are competing with Dáil sitting days, then the media, on whom we depend to get that message out, cannot attend both here and in the Houses of the Oireachtas. I understand that one of the reasons we are having the meeting today was because of the coinciding of attendance in the country by the two Ministers. I recognise that it is important that we have both——

It happens every time there is an eclipse of the sun.

Yes, every ten years. It is important that both Ministers are here, so in this instance I understand the reason. I would like to start my contribution on the issue which is most topical at the moment, Rwanda. It was the subject of a long but extraordinarily moving and effective meeting of the committee yesterday. The Tánaiste's speech may have been drafted by the time he got a copy of the committee's resolution. Will he speak to the officials from his Department who were at that meeting to fully understand events in Rwanda, Burundi and neighbouring Tanzania which are an indictment of the world? It is incredible that at the end of this century over 250,000 people had to flee for their lives over a 24 to 48 hour period and are now living in one large open field. As Brother Tom O'Donoghue who spoke to us so movingly yesterday said, it is the equivalent of gathering the population of Limerick and Cork in a large field with no toilets, sanitation or water and little food. At this stage the refugees are in reasonably good health but it was pointed out that the situation will deteriorate to constitute a major catastrophe.

The problem has to be tackled on both the humanitarian aid and political fronts. I urge the Tánaiste and the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, who raised the issue at the recent development council meeting, to take a lead role. They should not be afraid to do so with our European partners and in the UN and point out what needs to be done.

The committee passed a resolution recommending that Ireland take a lead role in the provision of an air strip at Ngara in north west Tanzania. The problems involved in bringing food and humanitarian aid to this remote area of north west Tanzania are enormous and the provision of an air strip which would cost hundreds of thousands of pounds as opposed to millions, would cut down the two day delivery time for food and also avoid other problems involved in transporting food over long distances.

At the very least we would be well advised to spend the money available to deal with this catastrophe in this way and perhaps seek the assistance of a partner from Europe. I stress that it needs to be done tomorrow, because this problem will get worse. The western world will have no excuse if thousands of people die as was suggested yesterday.

I heard one horrific statistic after yesterday's meeting. A cousin of mine who works for Concern when returning from South Africa visited the Concern project in Uganda where it was estimated that in one week 50,000 dead bodies came down the river bordering Rwanda, Tanzania and Uganda. We should try to imagine the horror of that catastrophe. The Minister would do a good day's work if he cleared his desk to deal with Rwanda to ensure effective action is taken politically and in regard to humanitarian aid.

On a more optimistic note, in the context of Africa, I was honoured to attend and observe the South African elections. This country can learn much from events in South Africa. One must admire the courage and fortitude of Nelson Mandela who spent 27 years in prison and had every justification to remain bitter and angry with the people and the regime which imprisoned him. In his willingness to negotiate with President De Klerk, he showed the kind of courage and leadership this world needs.

Those negotiations brought an end to apartheid and millions of people flocked to the polling stations, their joy bringing tears to my eyes and those of the other observers. Observers in my group reported that many times they had to leave the polling stations to compose themselves so moving was the sheer joy of the people as they cast their votes. Many people were voting for the first and, sadly because of their age and infirmity, probably the only time.

It was an honour for Ireland to be represented there. Everywhere I went there was instant recognition of the respect Ireland had shown for the fight against apartheid. The Irish Anti-Apartheid Movement was well known and the Irish generally seemed to be accepted. I ask the Minister to ensure that commitments similar to those given to help bring an end to apartheid and to assist people affected by apartheid will continue to be honoured.

This country can contribute effectively in education particularly in the skills area. We could provide expertise to third level colleges preparing students for university and trying to give people skills which are in short supply or non-existent in many rural areas and townships. There will be a huge programme of development in the provision of water, health care and electricity. We have expertise in those areas. We were probably one of the last countries to have full rural electrification. We can provide officials from the ESB to assist in projects. Those working in the regional technical colleges and FAS could also be made available. It would not cost us a great deal but we should offer personnel.

As we become more involved in both the EU and the United Nations, we should question the effectiveness of our representation around the world. I am not referring to people serving as ambassadors or consuls as they are all extremely effective people in their own right.

Ireland has 35 ambassadors serving 76 countries and we also have ambassadors at three international organisations, the EU, the UN and Brussels. Belgium, a similarly small nation in the EU, has 84 ambassadors and 7 ambassadors in international organisations such as the UN, the EU and so on. Spain which is considered to be one of the poorer countries in the EU has 178 ambassadors around the world.

It is the most industrial country in the world.

That may be true, but we need to look at how effectively we are spread around the world. In North and South America we have three permanent ambassadors serving in Ottawa, Washington and Argentina. That is not a very effective spread. If we want to effectively participate around the world we should examine this.

I recognise that there are budgetary considerations when running embassies but we have to review the effectiveness of this small number of permanent representatives around the world. There are new players in the world stage now including the Pacific ring in south and central America.

I welcome the opening of an embassy in South Africa. I pay tribute to the ambassador, Éamon O‘Toole, and his temporary assistant, Éamon Mac Aodha, and who was of great assistance to me when one of the group I was responsible for bringing to South Africa, Deputy Michael Ferris, became ill. The embassy was called into immediate service for Irish people in South Africa but we should make more use of our ambassadors in the promotion of Irish trade, products, skills and expertise.

Although it is not relevant to the Estimate, I wish to raise the issue of the staffing of this committee. The existing small staff do an incredible job and I pay tribute to them. If the committee is to progress we must look at its effectiveness. We have fewer staff servicing the full committee and the subcommittees on the UN, Northern Ireland, EU secondary legislation and ODA than had the full committee on EU secondary legislation. Perhaps the Minister is his daily discussions with the Minister for Finance could plead for more staff.

On Northern Ireland, I am deeply disappointed and concerned that the Joint Declaration, introduced with such promise, hope and expectations, has become a whimper. It seems to have disappeared from centre stage. It is clear that Sinn Fein under Gerry Adams will not participate in the way envisaged by the declaration. I am worried that not enough effort is being made to reactivate the discussions on a tripartite basis. I know the Anglo-Irish Conference met and that papers are being prepared. However, in view of the problems British Prime Minister John Major is having within his party, the Government should take a more active role in reconstituting those talks and in ensuring that we do not slip back into the doldrums we were in for a number of years. I will not say any more on this topic because it has all been said before and Deputy McDowell repeated it today.

On our involvement in the UN, the Minister said at last year's Estimates meeting that it was estimated that the cost of UN operations in terms of peacekeeping and peace enforcement would be approximately $3 billion. Ireland was owed £11.4 million at that stage. How much of that has been repaid to Ireland? Our involvement in the UN, given our small Army, is such that each operation must be carefully examined. We have had a number of opportunities to talk about the role of the UN in peace-keeping and peace enforcement. I have no difficulty with allowing Ireland to be involved in peace enforcement. I do not want the UN to lose its courage because that is a valid policy instrument for that organisation.

As a result of the experiences in Somalia and Bosnia, there may be a recognition that perhaps Chapter VII does not work as well it was hoped. There are lessons to be learned from what happened in those areas. However, to be effective and more than, as Brother Tom O'Donoghue suggested yesterday, an armoured meals-on-wheels organisation — which was a most evocative way of putting it — the UN must review its policies on how it operates in countries that have difficult internal problems.

On EU enlargement, I welcome the vote of the European Parliament on Austria, Sweden, Finland and Norway. I hope they will be members by the beginning of next January. The enlargement of the EU opens up the debate on the effect of future enlargement on this country. The Minister mentioned earlier that his White Paper is due at the beginning of next year. Things tend to go off schedule and at the very least a White Paper on European enlargement and the effect of decisions that will have to be made at the intergovernmental conference in 1996, should go to the houses of every citizen early next year. This will ensure in 1996 when there is a referendum people will not have to be pressed into understanding very complex and emotional issues in the three or four weeks of a referendum campaign. We have much experience of such cases and I urge the Minister, if there is any delay with his White Paper, to consider producing a separate, parallel paper on EU enlargement and the effect of the Maastricht chapter on security and defence.

I was glad to hear what Deputy McDowell said and to note that he may have read the Fine Gael European elections manifesto because he echoed many of the expressions in that document. If we wish to influence decisions at EU level, it is essential to participate as full members and not as a la carte diners at the EU table. We must sit at the Western European Union if we are to influence it towards peace and security, rather than defence. We cannot do that by sitting on the outside, lobbing balls in and criticising what happens there.

I welcome the Minister's more pragmatic approach in getting away from the sensitive and difficult subject of neutrality where if one mentioned defence or security, one was immediately accused of shedding our neutrality policy. It is possible to have a neutrality policy and to participate fully in the Western European Union. We have such a policy at the UN and there is no conflict.

I received a report this morning that at 9 a.m. before the Passport Office opened, 90 people were queueing outside. By the time the office opened at 9.30 a.m. there was probably a queue of 100 people or more. The queue included many elderly people and people clearly from outside Dublin. The problem as yet has not been tackled. We were assured that queues would not build up this year. The Minister should strongly consider extending the opening hours of the Passport Office. There is a problem every year in certain months. Regardless of how many times people are told to get passports in November they disregard it because they generally do not know they will go on holidays, although they might have known this year because of the World Cup.

Will the Minister refer to two countries not mentioned in his speech? East Timor still exercises the minds of many people, particularly in view of the recent television programme. What type of response did the Minister receive from the Australian ambassador? Also I would like Ireland to vote positively at the UN to remove the embargo against Cuba.

Will the Minister explain how he intends to spend the £150,000 on World Cup promotion? Will the fine and helpful staff of this committee get free tickets and a two week paid holiday in America for the World Cup? Perhaps the Minister intends to write the World Cup song and requires this money for back-up to get Charlie McGettigan or somebody else to help him with it. It is explained briefly that the Department want to promote the World Cup. However, I thought that would have come under the heading of sport.

I hope somebody goes to America to ensure it is not misspent.

The Minister did not refer to it in his speech. Perhaps he will explain how the money will be used.

Chairman

The resources for the committee is not a question for the committee. However, I raised it with the Minister for Finance and the problem is nearing resolution. He has certain staff in mind to allocate to the committee and we are in the final stages of negotiation.

On the last point mentioned by Deputy Owen, perhaps the Minister might tell us if he has tickets for us all because they are extremely difficult to come by.

There are a few points that I would like to home in on and I would like to deal with Northern Ireland in the first instance. It is important that the Downing Street Declaration be maintained as the key document it is and that any attempt to declare it dead and done with should be resisted. I know there are elements outside this House who would be delighted if they could claim to have killed off the Downing Street Declaration. It is a key compromise between two sovereign Governments in relation to how the conflicting rights at the root of the problems in Northern Ireland may be resolved. Its principles can ultimately be the basis of arrangements in Northern Ireland which will enable the people there to live in peace with each other. It is a democratic framework and on that basis is obviously not acceptable to the paramilitary organisations, who have done everything possible to kill it off in the last five months.

All the indications from the IRA are that they do not intend to accept it. There has been no formal declaration by them with regard to their attitude to it. But if the bombs, bullets and assassinations that have occurred since the Declaration was announced mean anything, then it seems to me that that is their answer. They see that as their way forward and not the democratic road. On that basis the prolonging of what has essentially been a stalemate has encouraged the IRA, to some extent at least, in hoping that they could get a better deal and that all they needed to do was push a little harder, have a few more high profile killings and actions like the Heathrow bombing to bring about their desired result.

It is instructive to remember that the IRA and Sinn Fein reject Unionist consent or, as they describe it, a Unionist veto. We all know that the IRA is seeking to exercise a veto, the veto of the bomb and the bullet. It is also instructive to bear in mind that when Gerry Adams talks about the IRA's capacity to continue for another 25 years he is not simply expressing a point of view. He is expressing a threat that unless the terms that Sinn Fein and the IRA want are met, they will continue for another 25 years. I happen to be one of those who does not believe that they have that capacity, but nevertheless it is a threat that is being exercised by them.

I am sure that the Department and the Minister are aware of the interview given by Mr. Adams in Die Spiegel which was published on 11 April 1994, almost four months after the Declaration. In anwer to a question about whether there would be peace or whether the IRA would stop, he said: “The IRA will never give up their fight unilaterally. In order to advance the peace process I would like to see the British Government commence negotiations with our Sinn Fein party. Then I could go to the IRA, hopefully offer them a package of solutions which would enable them to make a final decision regarding their future policies. For 25 years the British army have tried to defeat the IRA without success. On the contrary it looks as though they could continue their armed actions forever”.

That is an eye-opener in terms of the kind of expectations that were promoted that the IRA, and Gerry Adams in particular, was on the point of accepting the democratic process and acknowledging that armed action by the IRA in Northern Ireland or elsewhere was not the way forward. It is clear from that interview, made just a month ago and four months after the Declaration, that he still sees the use of force in Northern Ireland and elsewhere as one of their main means of progressing their case. It is important that we understand and recognise that and ignore the current bleatings from McGuiness and Adams that the peace process may be in crisis. If the peace process is in crisis it is because they have refused to set aside the gun and the bomb.

I do not accept either that it is in crisis, providing the democratic parties in Northern Ireland, and in this State as well, accept their responsibilities to move forward and improve the life of the people in Northern Ireland itself. It is important to create a framework and I understand that both Governments are working on what is referred to as a framework document for settlement. That is important work which I hope will reach a conclusion fairly soon. I appreciate that it is not likely to see the light of day prior to election day on 9 June, but I would hope that there would be significant movement soon after that date.

In tandem with that we need to look at ways in which small steps — what I have described as incremental steps — can be taken towards relieving the suspicion that exists between people in Northern Ireland as well as allaying fears about security forces and how the law applies to different sections of the community in Northern Ireland. The Tánaiste and the Northern Ireland Secretary address issues of this kind through the Anglo-Irish Conference, but it is too far removed from the lives of ordinary people in Northern Ireland. Therefore, there needs to be a more visible process of advancement on these issues.

We should look at the model of Initiative 92, the Opsahl Commission, and the process they engaged in, taking views, evidence and proposals from the general public in Northern Ireland. Everybody would accept that they have been extremely successful in that process which they are seeking to develop. Any assistance the Irish and British Governments can give to that grassroots approach of seeking ways forward in Northern Ireland should be made available. One way of doing it would be to have the process formalised as a joint British-Irish initiative in Northern Ireland. I do not know how the Opsahl Commission people would respond to such a proposal but it is something worth looking at.

I want to make a couple of other points with regard to Northern Ireland and recent statements by the Taoiseach. In one statement he seemed to fantasize about a united Ireland and talked about 30 per cent of Cabinet seats being available to Northern Ireland representatives. In the normal course of events any of us are entitled to do that. However, for the Taoiseach of the day — who is presumably involved in fairly delicate contacts with various people in seeking to move forward in Northern Ireland — it was unhelpful to say the least. It was unhelpful from the point of view of the people of Northern Ieeland who regard themselves as British, and unhelpful as well from the point of view of expectations it may have raised among the IRA and Sinn Fein that there was some kind of immediate united Ireland solution around the corner. They might have believed that the Taoiseach was giving them a wink, although I do not believe he was doing so. The thinking and operations of the Provos are based on the belief that one last push will achieve victory. We should avoid doing or saying aything to encourage that belief. For that reason the Taoiseach should in future avoid speculating on the shape of a united Ireland.

The Taoiseach's continual references to the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, are difficult to comprehend. The Taoiseach introduced that Act as a card to trump the demand for the amendment of Articles 2 and 3 — the Government of Ireland Act would have to be amended if Articles 2 and 3 were to be amended. A curious metamorphosis has occurred and it is now being promoted as the possible basis for a solution to the problems in Northern Ireland. It boggles the mind that a Taoiseach could consider the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, which partitioned Ireland, to be the basis for the unity of Ireland. There is reference in that Act to a type of supreme Council of Ireland to which both Parliaments could cede powers. However, that is in the context of a united Ireland within the United Kingdom and not in the context of an independent united Ireland. Since 1920 this State has made its own way in becoming a republic and breaking its political connections in terms of sovereignty with the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth. It is fantasy to promote the idea that the Government of Ireland Act, 1920, offers any stepping stone to a solution of the relationship between North and South. It simply is not there. A reading of the Act would confirm that.

I am appealing for a sense of reality about the problems in Northern Ireland. We cannot proceed on the basis that those who do not want to be part of a united Ireland are simply misled and, while we accept that they cannot be coerced into a united Ireland, it must also be accepted that they will not be cajoled by pretence into a united Ireland either.

There was much talk about the boundary changes in Northern Ireland last February. There were complaints that boundaries would favour either Catholic or Protestant voters in certain areas. As a means of overcoming this appalling denominational head count approach to politics in Northern Ireland, I suggested that the Irish Government, rather than get involved in that denominational debate, should press for the proportional representation system of elections for seats in Westminster. Multi-seat PR constituencies in Northern Ireland, which was the case under the Government of Ireland Act, would to some extent overcome the fears and concerns of people in those areas. There are other approaches to issues in Northern Ireland which do not entail the Irish Government taking the side of Catholics or being nice to Protestants. Democratic issues can be approached in a democratic way.

I have some questions for the Minister on his speech to the committee this morning. The Minister discussed the considerations which would be taken into account in the 1996 review of common foreign and security policy. He said that Ireland would be "deeply involved in the 1996 negotiations and ultimately the Irish people will decide whether or not Ireland should take part in any arrangements agreed". What steps will the Minister take, apart from publishing the White Paper, to engage the Irish people in the debate which will precede the decisions? I am concerned that people will suddenly be presented with a package which has been negotiated at European level and whose aspects have not been debated by the Irish people. This was a major problem with the Maastricht Treaty.

The Minister, in discussing the considerations which must be taken into account — and I agree with the points he made — mentioned peacekeeping. We recently changed our defence legislation to enable this State to participate in UN peace enforcement duties. Does the Minister's omission of a reference to peace enforcement imply that the Government no longer considers that an option, given that the Minister for Defence told the Dáil that he does not regard that as a viable or proper role for Ireland in the United Nations? The Minister also mentioned the risks arising from the end of the Cold War and he referred to minority issues, ethnic unrest and border difficulties. Does the Minister also consider poverty in the underdeveloped world to be one of the major security risks to the developed world? I believe it underlies virtually all ethnic unrest, border disputes and minority issues. On investigation one will find that disadvantage, marginalisation and poverty are at the root of such problems.

The Minister said that we must not reconstruct old divisions or rebuild old walls in our continent. I agree with his sentiments. It is equally important, however, that we do not build a wall between ourselves and the rest of the world. I fear that the course on which the European Union is proceeding, using the Western European Union as its security pillar, appears to be in that direction. We might be in the process of constructing the fortress Europe which everybody fears. I am not happy with our involvement in the Western European Union. I am not opposed to a common foreign and security policy. There must be such a policy to secure European political union. However, the debate must focus on the way the security policy is developed and its objectives.

I realise I have gone over my time and I thank the Chairman for showing flexibility.

Chairman

Given the time constraints, the most effective way to proceed is by question and answer on specific issues in Vote 38 and the first two items on Vote 39, to which I referred. These are various line issues of expenditure on which members may wish to query the Minister.

In Vote 38 under subhead B — repatriation and maintenance of distressed Irish persons abroad——

On a point of order, we should all agree to work from the same part of the document.

This is a facsimile copy of the page from the revised Book of Estimates.

The issue raised by Deputy Connor is under subhead B. Should we not agree subhead A first and then go through the others, as we did on the last occasion?

Chairman

We can do that, but if any Member wishes to raise a specific item he or she may, then the Minister or the Minister of State can answer, rather than going through the Estimate line by line. That would be much simpler. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Am I in order to continue my question?

Chairman

Yes.

Under subhead B, a sum of £65,000 was allocated for repatriation and maintenance of distressed Irish persons abroad. Can the Minister elaborate on this subhead? I also have a query on subhead C — support for Irish emigrant groups in the United States. I notice that has not increased although there are major social problems with young emigrants many of whom are still undocumented. We are lucky to have agencies in the US looking after them. The Department makes a grant-in-aid to Catholic charities in New York, so there is a certain degree of outreach, but we are not doing enough.

I presume the first matter relates primarily to elderly Irish people in the United Kingdom who do not have pension rights and at the end of their productive lives have no incomes in reserve. There are also many young Irish people in London and other British cities who receive no meaningful official outreach from this Government. There is a strong argument for a greater level of funding and outreach for Irish citizens young and old in the UK, Europe and the United States.

Under the subhead for repatriation and maintenance of distressed Irish persons abroad, it seems the 1993 outturn will have been £35,000 from the allocation of £75,000. It is essential to keep money in reserve and we are all aware of cases where holiday makers have been stranded because of natural disasters and emergency evacuation is necessary. The allocation for this year is £65,000 and a substantial proportion of this will be refunded when the people involved return home and sort out their affairs.

The number of advances of funds is declining. There were only 112 such advances in 1993 compared to 272 in 1992 and 408 in 1991. The average sum of money involved is £200. This area is adequately covered in the Estimate for this year.

On support for Irish immigrant groups I had the opportunity to meet groups in the UK and the US. We all owe a great debt to those involved in the churches and lay voluntary organisations in the US and the UK for their work helping young Irish people., We increased the money substantially last year between the Estimates and the amount paid in the budget. A sum of £150,000, was paid out last year and a similar sum has been allocated this year. There is also substantial funding in the UK through the DÍON committee, which is paid through the Department of Enterprise and Employment.

The organisations are doing excellent work and the relationship between my Department and the organisations, through consulates and embassies, is also good. We will continue to give all possible assistance to young Irish people in the UK and US.

On subhead A.6 — expenses for official premises — this figure has increased this year due to new missions in Helsinki and Pretoria and the fitting out of Ireland House. I take it the latter expense is shared between a number of Departments because it relates to more than one. I also note under subhead K, relating to other services, that there was a refund of £168,000 on Ireland House. Does that money come from the IDA or the other bodies sharing the building? I have not been to Ireland House but I understand a number of agencies have been brought together under its roof.

The Minister has answered questions on Irish emigrant groups. I do not see a subhead for support for such groups in the UK, but perhaps I am missing it.

That is the DÍON committee.

It is not set out in the same way here. There is an enormous need for assistance in the UK and I am worried that support for the British groups may suffer because of the high profile position of the American groups. I visited a number of the agencies supporting Irish people in London and they are doing incalculable work. A great number of Irish people in Britain need help.

There is a substantial increase under subhead D, dealing with information services. The Minister said this is because of the revised edition of Facts About Irelandand I agree the previous edition was rather out of date. Have the technology people proposed to put this information on a video, which might be more user friendly than a thick book?

Members of this committee and Deputies in general have a problem in the information sphere. The Department of Foreign Affairs allows foreign journalists to participate in seminars abroad but under the current budget for the Department, Deputies are not allowed to participate in the dissemination of information or in such seminars. This point is always made, no matter who is the Minister.

The allocation to bodies in Ireland is disappointing. There is a case for increasing the budget of the Irish Council for the European Movement this year and in the next two years. I do not know how much this extremely relevant and effective body has sought but with the Institute for European Affairs, it is the only organisation disseminating information and educating the Irish people about Europe. I hope this will change when the Minister publishes his White Paper but he should look at the body's costs and consider whether it might benefit from more money from his Department. I asked the Minister about subhead H and the £150,000 for the World Cup promotion and support activities. I am sure he will answer my queries.

I was going to kick to touch.

That would be like an own goal. Will the Minister explain subhead K, Appropriations-in-aid — Recoupment by EU of certain travelling expenses?

The Deputy is aware that over a period there are many discussions about the agencies which work for and represent Ireland in various cities. We decided to consolidate them in Ireland House in New York and we are reimbursed by various agencies, including An Bord Tráchtála, Shannon Free Airport Development Company, CIE Tours, Aer Lingus, IDA and Bord Fáilte. Initial reports indicate that it is quite successful. For example, in the past someone went to the consulate or to Aer Lingus looking for the IDA. He will now be able to call to Ireland House because these agencies are under the one roof and people are co-operating with each other. It is extremely important with our limited resources to get the best value for money. We are considering Tokyo to see if we can repeat the operation there. We can recoup rents for the space from the various semi-State agencies.

Do these refunds for Ireland House constitute the £168,000?

Yes, that is from refunds from these agencies.

As regards Facts About Ireland, the booklet has not been published since 1985 and it is essential to disseminate information about this country. Even in Opposition, I saw this lack of information as an omission. We will reproduce Facts About Ireland in a new and updated edition. We wish to do this in book form, which may be updated from time to time, rather than a glue bound version which, once published, is updated to last forever.

We could put our pictures or those of the Minister into it.

That is extremely unlikely, but if we sent the Deputy abroad on a mission on behalf of the Government, we could put her photograph into it.

Our information section has produced Ireland in Brief, which has been translated into eight languages, fact sheets on specific aspects of Irish life, audio visual material, disks and cassettes of Irish music, portable display units, books for presentation by diplomatic missions and for reference and display. Video cassettes and such materials are user-friendly, although they usually pile up because people, who get them as presents, need leisure time to watch them. The £117,000 recoupment of certain EU travel costs, refers to refunded air fares from the EU Council Secretariat, in respect of attendance at all meetings under the aegis of the Secretariat.

I asked a question about the Passport Office.

I would not skip that for all the tea in China. The Irish Council of the European Movement will receive an allocation from the Department of the Taoiseach, under the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt's, "Communicating Europe" initiative. I agree it has done tremendous work in its explanations to the public. Between the Irish Council of the European Movement and the White Paper, I hope we can stimulate a future debate on foreign policy.

I answered a question on the Adjournment about the Passport Office. We have carried out significant improvements in that office and are almost three quarters way through modernising it. It has better facilities now. The office has been moved to the ground floor and is more comfortable and spacious. We hope to avoid the queues on the streets. One does not want to see people queuing for a service. I regularly visit the office and those to whom I talk are pleased with the service and the accommodation now provided. We spent over £1 million on a new computerisation package, new ground floor office in Molesworth Street and three suburban offices in Blackrock, Tallaght and Coolock; we also introduced a staff restructuring package and a new modern PABX system to address the telephone problems.

We discussed this issue last year on a number of occasions and we were conscious of the World Cup. The number of applications to be processed in the first four months of 1994 increased by 32 per cent on the same period last year. It increased from 65,000 for the period January to April 1993 to 86,000 for the period January to April 1994. This is more than the increases for the previous two years. It was 6 per cent in 1993 and 19 per cent in 1992. However, this is not all due to the World Cup. Many people are going on foreign holidays because of the wet and depressing winter here. The demand is enormous.

I compliment the staff in the Passport Office and in the Department of Foreign Affairs. We gave additional resources and personnel to this area and many people in the Department worked last weekend to catch up with the backlog. By the end of this month we want to meet our target of being able to process postal applications in three weeks. Those who call to the office may have their applications processed in two weeks. There are now 165 staff working on passports. The fact that the office closes to the public at 4.30 p.m. does not mean the staff finish at 4.30 p.m. If 100 people are inside at that time, they will be courteously dealt with. The staff have done tremendous work over long hours, including weekends, to catch up with the recent surprising demand.

We included £150,000 in the Estimate for World Cup promotion and support activities. Most Deputies are aware of the brochure published many months ago in consultation with my Department, the Department of Education, the Department of Justice, the Garda Síochána, the Football Association of Ireland, the Irish Travel Agents Association and the US Embassy. It contains basic information for people travelling to the United States, many of whom will go there for the first time. While they may have attended soccer matches in the UK and Europe, there is a different sporting culture in the United States, therefore we want people to have maximum information.

It will also put a major demand on our consular services in the United States because 8,000 extra people will travel from this country to the US. We will open a temporary office in the city hall building in Orlando because most people will be based there. We will need additional staff in the office in New York and many leaflets are being printed. Other funding is available if we want the semi-State agencies to become involved in promotions. There may be an opportunity for the Government and the semi-State agencies to heighten interest in Ireland, in terms of trade, tourism and culture, during the World Cup. An interdepartmental committee is focusing on this issue. I assure the Deputy that the money will not be spent if there is no demand.

The staff in the Passport Office are excellent and uncomplaining. The leaflet the Minister mentioned is important. Will it be sent out with every passport because some people will be robbed or mugged?

I will drop it in every house in Dublin South Central.

I will do that for the Minister.

As the Passport Office is obviously a revenue generating office how much revenue does it generate per annum? How much will it generate this year due to the many additional passports which will be sought this year? Is there a relationship between what it generates and what it spends in terms of the service to the public? I went to the Passport Office yesterday morning and was horrified to see at least 100 people waiting on a call system. However, members of the staff took me upstairs and gave me priority treatment but the average waiting period could be three hours or more.

I have to correct Deputy Connor on that because it is not true. When we adjourn for lunch I will go over to the Passport Office with Deputy Connor and we will pull tickets to get service. We will not ask for privileges. One hour is probably the maximum time anyone must wait.

I remain to be convinced. How much of the revenue generated is returned to the public?

The chief executive of any company in Ireland would be proud of the return on earnings; there is a 3:1 ratio. The receipt from fees last year totalled over £7 million, while running costs totalled £2.4 million.

Chairman

That is a plus.

I am not satisfied that we are doing well simply because there is a profit.

I accept that, but the function is to provide people with documentation. As Deputy Owen said, we introduced reduced rates during the winter. If the system was co-ordinated we could have an excellent service whereby people would get their passports in three weeks by post and in two weeks by calling to the passport office. There would be an excellent service if people only applied during November to March, but people usually do not make decisions about foreign travel until after the winter. That seems to be happening this year.

What are the chances of greater decentralisation of the passport office to ar least one major town in each of the provinces?

To Tralee, Killarney an Listowel. We are looking at that and there are two aspects which I must clarify. There has been a collecting office in Cork for a number of years and I would like an issuing office to be established there. We all know that a great deal of security is necessary in relation to the issuing of passports. The Cork office should be an issuing one where people may collect their passport after all the work has been done. I would also like to see an office in the west. Once an issuing office has been set up in Cork with the ancillary facilities, we will move on to the next one. Three new suburban offices have opened in Dublin, which are helpful to those in the suburbs.

Has the Minister considered my proposal — about which I wrote to him when congratulating him on the new arrangements — to provide a discount for off-season applications for passports and to advertise these facts? There should also be a differentiation for applications made by post. While I realise there is an off-season price, postal applications should be treated more favourably from an economic point of view. Has the Department considered the possibility of issuing a European travel card for Irish citizens, short of a passport, which would be recognised in the EU? Although we do not use them in Ireland, I do not see why Irish citizens should not have a card the size of a bank card or a French identity card which they could carry in their pocket when travelling in the EU. I disagree with Deputy Owen about videos. I get promotional videos which I do not watch. Books are great because one may flick through a book to see if one wants to read it, but one cannot spend one hour fast forwarding through a video.

My seven year old child can.

Deputy Spring's seven year old child may not have anything better to do.

Deputy McDowell is not technology friendly.

I am a young or a middle aged fogey. Videos are a waste of money and organisations which believe they are doing themselves some good by producing them are wasting their money.

What is the situation in relation to funding Co-operation North? I understand its funding was reduced some time ago and it is no longer being adequately funded by the Department. It is a low profile body doing useful work by chipping away at obstacles to mutual understanding on this island. It deserves more help from the Department along the lines of what it used to get compared to what it is now getting.

We have not considered reducing the cost of postal applications. Perhaps we need to advertise more. I would like the average applicant for a passport to understand and to have confidence in the postal service and the return so that they would receive their passport in three weeks. That requires forward planning on the part of those going on holidays. As I already said, many people decide at the last minute and this results in a pile-up at Easter and the start of the summer.

As regards a European travel card, I believe Deputy McDowell is talking about a national identity card. That is a wider issue, which may have to be dealt with in another forum. I take the Deputy's point about Co-operation North and the excellent work which is being done. Many organisations like Co-operation North work quietly, effectively and efficiently and do not look for a high profile. Some £50,000 will be allocated to Co-operation North in 1994 and this will be helpful. It decreased previously and last year £20,000 was allocated. We are trying to help organisations such as the School of Ecumenics and the International Fund for Ireland, encounter groups this year.

Concern has been expressed about those who want passports in a hurry. People would be discouraged from applying at the last moment if a premium payment was introduced for those who require their passport in a week. This might encourage them to apply earlier.

Governments have enough ways of depressing people without imposing increased charges.

I do not want to argue about this, but there are people who leave these matters to the last moment. They may be motivated by the fact that they want their passport to last because if they get it just before they go on holidays it will last for a full ten years. Over the years people have come to me, and to most other Deputies, looking for their passport the next day. I was making a suggestion — I am not saying we should do this. It is another way to answer the critics who believe the queues are too long and it would encourage people to apply earlier.

We should make people aware of the postal service and the facility which is being offered from any part of the country and encourage them to use it on time. This is equivalent to motor taxation whereby most motor taxation offices — this system was not in place ten or 15 years ago — send out notices one month in advance. People then send a cheque and details to that office and receive their motor taxation documentation well in advance.

Giving a discount is the best way to encourage people.

As regards diplomatic services abroad, Deputy Owen pointed out that there were three ambassadors in the Americas — in Canada, the US and Argentina. She also referred to the blocade of Cuba. The Minister is probably aware that this committee discussed the blocade of Cuba and we were told that last year in the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution calling for an end to the blockade. Some 88 countries voted for an end to the blockade, four voted against and 57 abstained, including Ireland. The committee will ask the Minister and the Government to review its views on this and to vote with the majority of UN members when it comes before the General Assembly later this year. Could we appoint a non-residential ambassador to Cuba? The Cold War is over, we should shake off that era and look to appoint an ambassador to Cuba, even a non-residential one, and assess the cost implications.

I welcome the proposed increase in the Estimates for the funding for North-South and Anglo-Irish co-operation. This issue was raised at our Estimates meeting last year. While we are increasing funding for North-South co-operation, which all of us welcome, we still have a major difficulty in terms of North-South co-operation on the ground. I refer to the Border roads.

I come from a constituency where all the roads between Leitrim and Fermanagh have been consistently blocked by the British Goverment. This divides communities and families and separates business from its natural hinterland. It causes much economic and social hardship as detours, sometimes of up to 50 miles, are involved in even the shortest journeys. This has disastrous economic consequences, particularly for areas like Duard and Kiltyclougher. We are very greateful, not only in the Sligo-Leitrim constituency, but in all the Border areas, that the Minister took time off from his busy schedule last year to visit those closed roads. There was great hope that some of the roads might be opened in the near future, particularly with the increased level of co-operation between our Government and the British Government. Has there been any move on that in recent months?

Chairman

It is lovely tourism country, too.

I will take points in relation to the diplomatic service and the missions abroad raised by both Deputy Bree and Deputy Owen. At all times it is a question of resources. We have 44 resident diplomatic missions and the example given is in the context of North and South America. We have a mission in the United States and in Canada. The United States mission also services Mexico, which is becoming more demanding now with our trade links with Mexico opening. The vast continent of South America is represented by one embassy, which is unreal in terms of the demands on the individuals at any given time. We have established a mission in Helsinki in the past 12 months and one in South Africa. I would like to see an expansion of the Foreign Service, and we are always reviewing the situation. The Chairman would be familiar with that experience, reviewing where we are operating and where we may need to move into new areas.

One of the Deputies mentioned the development of enconomic powers in Asian countries. We look at it from the point of view of trade and diplomatic relations. In relation to Cuba, it is not a question of whether or not the Cold War has ended. It is a question of resources and priorities for the Department both in diplomatic and trade arrangements. I had quite extensive discussions with the Cuban Foreign Minister last year in New York and I am aware of the concern expressed by the committee. I will certainly examine that very closely in relation to the forthcoming General Assembly of the United Nations. In effect, the Cold War is over and it is time for the United States to move on their relations with Cuba. I hope that can happen in the foreseeable future. I will review our position before the next meeting of the General Assembly of the United Nations.

Is there a common EU position on that?

No, there is not.

Just to continue briefly in this whole area of diplomatic missions abroad. We have had very few full blown diplomatic missions on the Continent of Africa, apart from that in Egypt, one now in South Africa and one in Nigeria. The others are development assistance offices, they are not embassies by any stretch of the imagination. Does the Minister not think that we have to look at that Continent much more seriously? I visited that part of the world, including South Africa, recently. I was accompanied by politicians from Mozambique, Malawai and Swaziland as part of the observer teams, and they all made the point to me—it was not the first time this point was made to me—that we do not have diplomatic relations with these countries.

They are very willing to establish diplomatic relations with us, because our reputation in these countries is obviously very good. There is a great sense of warmth and friendship towards this country and we are seen as being something entirely different from countries on the European Continent. We have had a different kind of colonial experience from the people of countries like Spain, Portugal, the United Kingdom and France; ours has been the reverse of that and that is clearly recognised. There would be a tremendous spin-off for us by establishing our relationships with those countries more formally.

What is our relationship with Taiwan? We had full-blown diplomatic relations with China. What is the attitude of the Government to the type A cultural office in this country which is, in a sense, the representation of what we used to call the old nationalist China. I have nothing against those people being in this country; they have certainly established themselves internationally as a major economic and trading force in the world. The world, and this country too, is inclined to pretend that they do not exist as a force in the world in the sense that we turn our back to any transgression of diplomatic manners by allowing them have a cultural office in the country and so on. Could the Minister kindly comment on that, as to what exactly is the status of our relationship in terms of a recognition of a country like Taiwan?

Chairman

That is the end of questions. The Minister wishes to reply.

I will take the first aspect of the Deputy's question in relation to Africa. As I said in relation to the previous reply, I would like to expand the diplomatic service and the missions abroad. Africa as a Continent will face enormous problems. We will be talking about one of them in a minute, in relation to Rwanda, for example, but in the international sphere of politics there is apprehension about the future of the whole of the African Continent from the poverty question to the developments that are needed. Everybody is aware of the undercurrents across the northern part of the African Continent in relation to fundamentalism and the threat that that offers to the security of the various states. Likewise, the economies of many of the central African countries are very weak and vulnerable.

Hopefully, the emerging democracy in South Africa will bring stability to that part of the Continent and hopefully one can develop from that. The European Union and, indeed, the United States and Russia and other Continents will have to pay great attention to and put great emphasis on the economic development of Africa in the foreseeable future, because horrendous problems will have to be faced.

Taiwan is a very important economic entity. The Irish Government welcomes trade and economic relations but Members would be aware that we recognise Beijing as the sole represenative of China. We have extensive trade relations with Taiwan, that is the situation. It is probably not very satisfactory in terms of the international situation, but that is as it is. My understanding in relation to the recognition of the cultural office is that they seem to be quite satisfied.

There is one other issue which I did not refer to, that was Deputy Bree's question in relation to cross-border roads. The blockade of cross-Border roads is a matter which we have raised on numerous occasions in the intergovernmental Conference and we will continue to do so. I am aware of and I have seen the disruption the closure of these roads causes to the social and economic life on both sides of the Border. There are security implications in relation to opening these roads. It is yet another area where, if we could take the violence out of the conflict, the problem would be greatly lessened. Many people hold the view nowadays that the Border is there strictly because of violence whereas it was a trade Border many years ago. If the violence stops, is there a need for a Border on this island? The security Border is in itself a response to the violence and paramilitary activity, but I am aware of the disruption caused and I will continue to see if we can have some of the difficulties alleviated.

Chairman

Thank you, Minister. The immediacy of your response has enabled us to get through the question and answer session of specific budgetary details very expeditiously. Various points of principle have been raised in speeches by the group leaders. The time is opportune for the Minister to reply in a general way on the policy aspects.

I will attempt to deal with the points raised although not necessarily in the order in which they were raised. Members may feel free to come back again to aspects to which I may not refer.

Deputy Owen asked about arrears due to Ireland. As of April 1994 an amount of £12.4 million was outstanding on the UNIFIL account; Ireland is currently owed around £0.9 million for the UNFICYP and £0.2 million in respect of UNOSOM II, although we expect the latter amount to be paid shortly. This is a matter that I and other members of the Government have raised in the UN at various meetings. We received an arrears payment on the UNIFIL account of $2.6 million in April 1993, $2.6 million in October 1993, $1.3 million in November 1993, $1.3 million in December 1993 and $1.5 million in April 1994. Efforts are being made in this regard and it is an issue we have on our agenda in our discussions with the Secretary-General and other representatives of the UN when we meet them.

With regard to Rwanda, which was raised by many of the speakers, I thank the committee for its interest and I will examine the resolution of yesterday's meeting. The reports of the conflict and the atrocities emerging from Rwanda are perhaps the most horrific any of us have seen in our lifetime. Since the killings of the President of Rwanda and Burundi almost 200,000 have been reported killed and up to 500,000 have fled to neighbouring countries, mainly to Tanzania. This flight of refugees from Rwanda is the largest and the fastest that the UN High Commission for Refugees has ever experienced. It calls for the highest level of co-ordinated action by the international community.

I stated in the Dáil last week that the UN must step up its efforts to bring about a ceasefire and a cessation of hostilities. The UN's special representative in Rwanda and the commander of UNAMIR have a key mediation role, as does the Organisation of African Unity in terms of first hand experience. We would expect this organisation and the countries in the region to use their influence with the parties involved.

The EU is in contact with the OAU. The Security Council has to review the role of UNAMIR and see what can be done with a larger force. The Secretary-General has pointed out that complications arise from the fact that in recent days both sides in the conflict have expressed a lack of confidence in UNAMIR's impartiality and that creates increased pressure and difficulty for the UN. The Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, raised the matter at the development council and we proposed that the EU send an urgent mission to the neighbouring states to discuss the situation with the authorities and to assess the immediate needs of the refugees. This is being done by the EU. We support a visit by the newly appointed UN Commissioner for Human Rights to the area and an early meeting of the UN Commission in Geneva.

The international community must act to prevent the supply of arms to the parties involved. The Security Council has appealed to all states to refrain from providing arms or military assistance to the parties and an arms embargo should now be considered. I assure the committee that at the European Foreign Ministers Council meeting on Monday I will raise the issue of Rwanda. We have already asked at yesterday's preparatory meeting for the issue to be put on the agenda.

With regard to the airstrips, from a development point of view, it is a project which deserves our attention. We are looking at it with concern today in our office in Dar es Salaam.

East Timor has been discussed in the Dáil on a number of occasions. I wrote to the Indonesian foreign minister last year about the imprisonment of the Timorese leader, Xanana Gusmao. I keep in close contact with the Portuguese foreign minister who has a lead role in terms of seeking to bring about a resolution. Portugal has proposed that the presidency write to the UN Secretary-General supporting his efforts to achieve a settlement through the next round of talks this month, under his auspices, between Portugal and Indonesa. We are backing that proposal and have done so openly and firmly.

We also ensured that the EU attempt at this year's UN Commission on Human Rights reflected our national concerns which have been stated many times in the Dáil. My officials have told the Australian Ambassador the concerns of the Government, as raised in the House, about human rights in East Timor and we have asked Australia to use its influence for an improvement there. The ambassador confirmed his country's concern and said that its recognition of Indonesia's sovereignty over East Timor has enabled Australia to pursue its concerns effectively.

We are not in a position, unilaterally, to introduce trade sanctions against Indonesia. These are matters for the UN under Chapter VII of the Charter and for the EU in the context of Article 228 (c) of the Maastricht Treaty. The current dialogue between Portugal and Indonesia under the UN is perhaps the best way to make progress. I do not know if there would be sufficient agreement at UN or EU level for the imposition of sanctions.

The John Pilger film which Deputy Connor first brought to my attention was one which has shocked everybody. The British Foreign Secretary, Mr. Douglas Hurd, MP, has been reported as denying the specific allegation about the UK selling Hawk bombers to Indonesia, but there are significant arms exports from European Union partners and I intend to raise that issue.

With regard to the points raised about security, the common foreign and security policy and defence, these are matters which will have to be dealt with by 1996 and, as far as I am concerned, Ireland will be fully involved in EU discussions and negotiations on security and defence. Maastricht commits member states to negotiations on the eventual framing of a common defence policy. We want to be involved in the discussions that will take place.

I have tried to set out some of the basic principles that will guide our approach. We are fully involved at present in discussions on security in the EU; we have contributed to these discussions and the development of security policy. We are actively involved in formulating policy on Europe's greatest security challenge, the former Yugoslavia. We are making a practical contribution by sending personnel to UNPROFOR, the EU monitor mission, the EU task force and the sanctions assistance missions. We welcome the concept of the Partnership for Peace; it corresponds to our idea of European security based on inclusiveness, co-operation and partnership. Membership is open to all members of the CSCE which includes Eastern Europe, Russia and the European neutrals. It is something we will keep under review as the European security architecture develops.

Deputy Owen made a point about the Western European Union and mentioned that it would be possible to be a member of the Western European Union and be neutral. We could debate that point for a long time but I do not think that is possible because Article V of the Brussels Treaty commits members to come to the aid of another in the event of an attack. This is a military alliance in essence and that is why the Government opted for observer status at the Western European Union. The question of the security and defence of the EU will be one of the main issues at the 1996 intergovernmental conference but I do not think it is correct to say that membership of Western European Union now is compatible with our neutrality.

We will need to have a debate about that issue and the public will have to be informed. I hope the White Paper will be published next year and will help that necessary debate. Deputy De Rossa and Deputy McDowell mentioned that we want an open debate well in advance. It is not in the interests of the body politic or the public to attempt to have a referendum in 1996 and expect the public to have either an understanding or comprehension of the many complex issues involved if it is to be done over a three to four week period. In preparing the White Paper and by bringing in academic institutions and various other organisations—I have consulted with approximately 70 organisations who are interested in foreign policy and its development side—I hope there will be an active debate and that we will try to establish, perhaps for the first time in the history of the State, a sense of ownership in foreign policy. The Select Committee on Foreign Affairs has an important role to play — I have already communicated with the Chairman in that respect — in stimulating the debate and ensuring it is an informed one with the involvement of the public.

A question was raised about the relevance of our missions abroad in terms of trade. In discussions with our officials abroad I have found that they are as fully aware of their responsibilities in that area as they are in the area of diplomacy. As an export-orientated nation, it is important to maximise the resources available to us. I am sure the committee is aware that the Foreign Earnings Committee was re-established and is now under the chairmanship of the Minister for Tourism and Trade. My Department is represented on that committee and we will play a full part in defining policy guidelines for Ireland's overall effort abroad. It requires all representatives from the trade and financial sectors to work together. From the reports I have received there seems to be a high level of co-operation in the various cities abroad in which we operate.

Many comments were made about Northern Ireland. One could obviously address them for a long period of time. I do not accept that the Downing Street Declaration is now a whimper. Just as the Anglo-Irish Agreement was a major and significant development between both Governments, I would see this declaration as being as significant a milestone when the history books are written. That the talks have not resumed is not for want of effort on my part, on behalf of any member of the Government or any of our missions.

The European elections are taking place in the North, as they are here, on 9 June. In that respect, it is difficult to see people committing themselves to a talks process which could be used by others to their disadvantage. I hope these talks can be resumed. They will be building on the Downing Street Joint Declaration. As has been said many times, it is a framework upon which progress can be made. Nobody has a veto to stop that progress. The vast majority of those living on this island want us to make progress and support a peaceful resolution to our problems. We will work with the British Government and the political parties in Northern Ireland. I welcome the contribution of all parties who accept a democratic mandate in Northern Ireland.

There is a step to be made — I regard it as a small one — by those involved in violence. When one refers to those involved in violence, I regard it as meaning those from both the Loyalist and the Nationalist communities. Like all conflicts around the globe, it is difficult to solve them unless those who are most deeply involved have the desire to end it. They must make their decisions on the basis of recognising that the only way to make progress is by democratic and political solutions. There will be no shortcomings from either Government in terms of time, effort and resources if those involved in the conflict end the violence and make it clear that the only way to make progress is within the democratic process. We will not be found wanting and we have set out to be generous to all sides.

The Downing Street Joint Declaration makes a strong appeal to the Loyalist community. That aspect was not adequately highlighted initially by either Government when addressing the Loyalist community. There is a great deal of comfort for that community in the declaration. It is a realistic statement of the current situation. It provides the best possible opportunity, certainly in my lifetime, for progress and an ending of this conflict which has bedevilled all of us. I wish that those who have small steps to make to end the violence would do so and work with both Governments.

I am aware the Chairman has taken up the matter of the staffing of the committee with the Department. I accept Deputy McDowell's point on the monitoring of European Union legislation. I will discuss that matter with the Minister for Finannce. This committee has justified the many years of debate that took place prior to its formation. If there is a deficit on the examination of legislation, I hope it can be overcome.

In regard to Rwanda, it was made clear to the committee yesterday that the neighbouring countries will not be of much help in solving the problem. Many of them are involved on either one side or the other. Uganda, among others, has funded the Tutsi rebels. Perhaps Mr. Murphy or Mr. Lynch, who briefed the committee in this regard yesterday, could brief the Minister?

I have already been briefed on Rwanda. I am also aware of the problem from previous readings and briefings on the situation, which add to its complexity. That was part and parcel of what I was elaborating on when I replied to Deputy Connor's question about the African Continent. These complexities and difficulties will place enormous strains on the resources of the United Nations, the European Union, the United States and other countries, but they will have to be tackled. Deputy De Rossa asked that poverty be included in the items. I set out some of the items, but the alleviation of poverty is a major factor in our deliberations and would be central to foreign policy discussions.

As the committee is aware, the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Kitt, will be speaking on development aid. We focus that aid on those who are most in need and that is the reason we concentrated on Africa in the past.

Chairman

Thank you, Minister, for your comprehensive statements on the areas of the European Union, international affairs and Northern Ireland. The second part of the Vote will be introduced by the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt. It concerns international co-operation and will be confined to development co-operation issues.

Deputy Owen was concerned that the Committee was meeting on a sitting day. We will try to avoid that in future. Deputy Kitt and I have, perhaps, the best working relationship of all Ministers. Foreign Affairs is a difficult and demanding brief and there are many international meetings we have to attend. We are both pleased to be present together before the committee. In future, we will try to get the committee to meet on a non-sitting day.

Vote 39 — International Co-operation.

At the outset, I would like to associate myself with the words of sympathy expressed on the death of the leader of the British Labour Party, John Smith. It came as a great shock to me, as it did to all of the Members present here today.

Since becoming a Member of Dáil Éireann, I recognised the special link we have with British parliamentarians, whether it be with the British-Irish Parliamentary Body, on which members of the committee have served or are serving, or other fora. John Smith represented a dynamic and central figure in relations between our two countries. His death will come as a great loss to his party, his friends, the political system in the UK, and throughout the world. He is a very young politican to have passed away and I extend my sympathy to his wife and family.

As Minister responsible for Official Development Assistance I naturally welcome the fact that it has been possible to increase the allocations for ODA under subheads C to J of the International Co-operation Vote. This is the second successive year that the ODA allocations have been increased by a significant amount. The overall expenditure from all sources on ODA will come to £70 million in 1994 compared to £40 million in 1992. This is a large increase by any standards. Extra funding means that Ireland can do more to help those who badly need our help. We have set out our aims and objectives for Irish aid in the Strategy Plan, published in July 1993.

Turning to the main implications of the increases provided in the Estimates, subhead C is the largest item in the Vote for International Co-operation. The main item funded under this subhead is the bilateral aid programme which is the vehicle we use to provide long term assistance, mostly to countries in Sub-Saharan Africa. There is a 78 per cent increase in this subhead, the main implication of which is that we are able to expand our development programmes in our priority countries and add new countries to the list of priority recipients of Irish aid. We will be stepping up the level of assistance to three of the four priority countries, Zambia, Tanzania and Lesotho. Sudan is in a special category in that Ireland, in common with our EU partners, has limited the extent of our assistance to that country in recent years.

As we have more funding available we have been able to open development co-operation offices in two new priority countries, Ethiopia and Uganda. These are two very poor countries which are in urgent need of assistance. They have suffered famine and civil war in the recent past but they are making valiant efforts to get their economies back on track and to improve the welfare of their peoples. Already we have identified suitable projects for assistance. In Ethiopia we will be rebuilding schools and health clinics and in Uganda we are putting an urban project in place in Katwe which will provide water, sanitation and waste disposal in an environmentally friendly way.

Another country in dire need of rehabilitation is Mozambique. We intend to examine the possibility of a full programme of co-operation with Mozambique in the coming years. In the meantime, Irish aid will support a number of projects in 1994 in the area of rural water supply, health training, de-mining and small scale fisheries. Other countries we intend to assist this year include South Africa, Zimbabwe, Somalia, the occupied Territories, Vietnam and Cambodia.

Regarding South Africa, our first priority under the aid programme this year was to support the electoral process. We provided a considerable amount of funding for this, both directly through the monitoring operations carried out with our European Union partners and indirectly, through APSO's programme of election monitoring. Our main assistance to South Africa over the years has been at grassroots level, through NGOs, such as the Sisters of Mercy, who are doing excellent work, especially in the educational field. We will continue and increase that kind of support.

Now that non-racial democratic government is in place, assistance will be required to enable the black majority to recover from its heavily disadvantaged position under the apartheid regime. We have identified a number of projects in the field of education and training and support for the new provincial administrations. These are areas in which Ireland has much expertise and we will be developing our programme of assistance in the months ahead.

Regarding our assistance for Vietnam and Cambodia, following my visit to these countries last November I have decided to support two projects being run by Concern in Cambodia, one involving resettlement of returned refugees and the other a primary education scheme. We will, furthermore, be giving a grant to help towards the removal of mines in the area where Concern is active and in this respect I appreciate that the committee has devoted much of its attention to the issue of de-mining. In both Vietnam and Cambodia we will contribute to the rehabilitation of the power systems which have been in bad condition. This work will be carried out by ESB International.

Also included in subhead C is the allocation for co-financing projects with Non-Governmental Organisations such as GOAL, Concern, Trócaire and the missionary orders. I am pleased that it has been possible to increase the allocation substantially this year.

Of the remaining subheads, the committee should note that subhead D, Agency for Personal Services Overseas, shows a large increase reflecting the expansion of APSO's recruiting activities in line with the promise made in the Programme for a Partnership Government, and the £4 million allocated under subhead E, which covers emergency humanitarian assistance, should allow us to respond to the natural and man-made disasters which occur all too frequently throughout the world.

Subhead G refers to the voluntary contributions we make to UN development agencies. Again, I am happy that increased ODA funding means we can bring our contributions close to the kind of level which our EU partners give. It will enable us to contribute for the first time to some of the smaller funds, for example, the health field.

Clearly the developing countries need more from us than assistance with projects and contributions to international agencies, however worthwhile these may be. I have often remarked in the past that poverty and hunger are issues not of charity but of justice. Africa is facing enormous problems and one of the most serious is the burden of debt which hangs around the necks of so many poor countries and which is a major obstacle in their struggle to recover prosperity and economic self-sufficiency.

I commend the ODA Sub-Committee of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs for making the debt issue its first priority. The paper which has been produced is extremely useful and will help to shape policy in this area. The Government has responded to the growing concern about developing countries' indebtedness and has taken a number of measures.

We are contributing, for the first time, to the fund operated by the IMF to ease the problems of developing countries facing severe balance of payments difficulties. Ireland will contribute a total of £7 million to the fund. In addition, this year, for the first time, we are making a contribution to a scheme run by the UN agency UNITAR to train personnel from poor countries in debt management. Furthermore, we are briefing our representative at the IMF on a regular basis about the economic situation of the priority countries under our aid programmes so that he is well informed when the board of the IMF discusses those countries' economies. These are tangible measures which should help developing countries in a practical way.

Another live issue at present is population. I am aware that some members of the committee have been anxious that we answer some questions in the Dáil, but unfortunately we did not get to these questions. I am, pleased, therefore, to have the opportunity to address this issue with the committee. The UN Conference on Population and Development, which will be held in Cairo in September, will deal with the effects of population growth on economic and social development. It is obvious that there are grounds for concern at the exploding growth in the world's population, which at present, I understand, stands at 5.4 billion. That population will be doubled in the next 40 years. The committee can appreciate the kind of population the world will have in the next century. It is estimated that 95 per cent of that population growth will take place in the developing world.

This population growth is an important issue when considering demands on resources such as land, water and food supply. The links between demographic trends and sustainable developments are now accepted. More and more countries, including those in the developing world, recognise the need for population programmes which includes family planning components. This was spelt out clearly at the 1992 Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro.

I start from the position that action in this area should be based on the principles of non-coercion and non-discrimination, that there should be respect for ethnic and cultural differences, that individuals and couples should have the right to choose the number and spacing of their children, that there should be free access to family planning services and that population policy should not be limited to family planning but should form part of an integrated approach to the fight against poverty and the promotion of sustainable development.

Ireland will not accept that abortion should be promoted as a means of population control. I have made that clear to our EU partners and that position will be maintained in Cairo.

Debt, access to markets, the links between human rights and development, population, gender issues and the plight of children in the Third World are all issues on which we need to have a coherent policy. These issues will be prominent in the consultation process leading up to the White Paper. I will seek to ensure that our policies in the field of development co-operation reflect the strongly held views of the Irish people on these questions.

When the spokespersons of the other parties have spoken, I will be glad to respond to any questions they put to me.

I welcome the parts of the Ministers speech which reflect the more positive aspects of our development co-operation policies in the last year. We all acknowledge there has been a significant increase in the level of our ODA. Regretably, this year's ODA, which is approximately £40 million, is about 0.21 per cent of our GDP, which is still a long way short of the UN's target of 0.7 per cent. We welcome the improvement and hope the trend will continue and that by the end of the decade we will be close to the UN average. At present we do not reach anything like the OECD or EU averages.

Present approaches to the problem of the Third World debt, to which this committee has devoted a great deal of its time, are far from adequate. What the Minister said is fine but we must adopt a far more radical approach and Ireland should take a lead in this. We are asking countries in Sub-Saharan Africa to repay the unpayable. These countries just do not have short term adjustment problems in terms of workings of their economies but are in every sense bankrupt. It is unfair to stand over an IMF/World Bank policy which talks about structural adjustment programmes which contains certain concessions but demand the repayment of every penny which has been borrowed. For all the talking which has been done by the Minister for Finance within the councils of the IMF and the World Bank, no progress has been made in changing the policy of these organisations on rescheduling or writing off debts. This is the radical approach which this country must take on this question.

Mozambique is holding its first democratic elections in October. One hopes it will put itself on the road to democratisation and normalisation. It owes the IMF and the World Bank a debt which is four times greater than its annual GDP. Repayments to the IMF and the World Bank by countries like Tanzania, Zambia and Uganda are far greater in any budgetary year than their spending on essential social services such as health and education. While we welcome democratic rebirth in Uganda, in Zambia under President Chiluba and in Mozambique, we are nevertheless going along with the policies of the world monetary order as expressed by the lending policies of the IMF and the World Bank. We should take a lead. It may be argues that we are no major contributor to the World Bank and the IMF. The big players are the great economic powers, such as the US, the UK, France and Japan. There is a moral imperative involved here. There is no point in us joining in a chorus of welcome for democratisation while we operate world monetory and economic policies which almost go back to 19th century laissez faire policies. These will not work. We are strangling any attempts at recovery by these countries. I sincerely ask the Minister to accept the points which I hope I have made articulately.

The ultimate destiny of Africa is one of disaster if present trends continue. Its position is unsustainable. We lecture African countries about greater democratisation and internal political reform while at the same time we do not help them with their crushing debt problems. For these countries repayment of debt means no money for essential social services such as health and education. While major internal problems in these countries are not attended to, the stability of their governments, whom we are congratulating for their democratisation, is being undermined indirectly if not directly by the policies of the developed world.

I am glad the Minister referred to the issue of world population. He rightly stated that this is increasing at a rate which the planet can no longer sustain. On this day the world population will increase by 0.25 million. There will be 90 million more people on the planet on 31 December next than there were on 1 January. The resources of the planet can no longer meet the demands of the increasing population. I welcome that population programmes will be part of our ODA policy but I would like a more positive statement. A target of some NGOs and developing countries is that at least 4 per cent of all overseas development assistance should go towards family planning. This must be done but, like the Minister, I exclude abortion from this.

If present trends continue, the consequences for the planet will be horrendous. It is estimated that because of environmental degradation, the effects of local over-population, etc., we are losing 2 per cent of the planet's fresh water annually. This cannot continue. We cannot sustain the position where two-thirds of the world must live on one-third of the world's production. To put it another way, we cannot sustain a situation where those living in the richest one-third of the world have two-thirds of the world's resources to spend, use and, every often, waste. The richest 20 per cent of the people on the planet have access to 80 per cent of the world's food. We cannot talk about managing the human population without managing human behaviour. It is imperative for us to educate people about the wrong, the equity and inequality caused by the profligacy of the First World and its waste of resources. There is as great an imperative on us all to educate people about that wrong and inequality as there is about impoverishment, lack of food and proper health care, high infant mortality and so on.

When we go to the conference on population and world development in Cairo in September or October, I hope we will be able to put forward positive proposals and that the Minister — I take it that he will be representing us — will not be afraid to say that this country is willing to direct at least 4 per cent of its Overseas Development Assistance towards family planning programmes in the countries which we have targeted. We should encourage Non-Governmental Organisations — Church organisations or lay NGOs — to use the funding which they get from this Government for family planning programmes. There is not a recipient country in the Third World which does not recognise this relationship between population and development.

Recently I attended a fairly major conference in Bangladesh on this whole issue. Yesterday, Brother Tom O'Donoghue spoke here about every young mother in Rwanda carrying a baby on her back. He made this point very forcefully to us and I considered that it came from a very significant source — a member of a religious community working in a Third World country with a very deep passion for and understanding of what he was doing. We must take on board in a realistic way the problem of fertility rates of up to five and six children for every female of productive years in areas where resources come nowhere near to sustaining that level of population growth.

Fundamentalism is not confined to any one religion or region. However, it has a common victim which is ordinary, poor people all over the world and, in particular, women. We should be insisting in our ODA programmes, in so far as possible, that there must be more emphasis on the education of women. It struck me while I was in South Africa that the vast majority of adults over 30 years of age who were illiterate and needed assistance with the voting process were women. The situation is far worse in many other African countries because of traditions and so on. Greater emphasis must be put on this basic empowerment of females. The right to education must be extended to both sexes in developing countries. We would be morally right in making that a condition of any funding which we direct towards education programmes.

I know that Rwanda has been dealt with but while I welcome the Minister's initiative it has come a little late in the day. I put a priority question to his colleague about three weeks ago in the Dáil in relation to Rwanda. I made the point that because of Ireland's special position in the world — we have a very high level of respect in the Third World — we should be taking the lead in insisting on a peace enforcement force being sent into such a country. We are reminded by Trócaire that under the 1948 Genocide Convention, the world's governmennts — including our own — have a legal obligation to prevent and punish genocide. That should be a guiding principle of our foreign policy in relation to situations such as that in Rwanda.

The political and tribal problems of Rwanda, according to Brother O'Donoghue, have their roots in economics. An Oxfam report stated that 73 per cent of the total export earnings of Rwanda came from coffee — a commodity the price of which more than halved during the 1980s. In neighbouring Burundi, 87 per cent of its export earnings come from coffee. These are the kind of economic conditions which are created when there is that extent of dependency on a single commodity. I hope that the Minister will take on board some of the points which I have made.

I call on Deputy De Rossa to make a statement on behalf of the Technical Group as I do not see a member of the Progressive Democrats present.

I welcome the fact that the expenditure by this country on ODA has reached the level of £70 million in 1994 as compared to £40 million in 1992. That is something for which Opposition parties have been pressing for some considerable time. We have still not reached the target set by the United Nations which should have been reached many years ago. Nevertheless, it is heartening of see that, at long last, we are moving in that direction and we should record our appreciation that the current Minister is doing that.

It is very heartening to see the developments in South Africa. It took courage by people such as Nelson Mandela and Mr. De Klerk who took risks in terms of their own support base to move towards a situation where a multi-racial democratic system could be established. It was never certain that the tactics and strategies which were being developed would succeed; there was no inevitability about it. We saw very clearly the difficulties which arose with regard to Buthelezi. Nevertheless, those difficulties have been overcome and Buthelezi is now a part of the government. There are signs of hope for everybody in South Africa. It restores one's optimism in relation to world events in view of the very depressing news which we have received for so long from other parts of the world.

In mentioning South Africa, we should not forget that ordinary people in this country made sacrifices to support the struggle of the people of South Africa. I am thinking in particular of the young women working in Dunne's Stores who put their jobs on the line in order to support the sanctions against the importation of South African fruit. Some of them lost their jobs and this committee should mark their contribution and that of many other ordinary people who were never heard about but who, over the years, supported the rights of South Africans, regardless of their colour, to be involved in the democratic system and to have a society which not only treated them fairly but gave them a fair share of their country's resources.

The new Government has set itself the enormous task of creating 2.5 million jobs and providing housing and education. Our task is to assist, where we can, the new Government's efforts to put the infrastructure of a new domocratic state in place and ensure that the people of South Africa share in the resources and prosperity of their country. On a common foreign and security policy, if one examines the problem countries around the world one will inevitably find that poverty, marginalisation or disadvantage of one kind or another is at the root of virtually all the current conflicts. Unless South Africa can deal with the real poverty there, the road ahead may be a very rocky one.

Rwanda and the appalling slaughter in that country was discussed at some length yesterday and referred to again by the Tánaiste today. There were revelations in recent days about the slaughter that occurred, unknown to us, in neighbouring countries. It is a sign of the times that unless something is graphically depicted on our television screens we do not seem to know anything about it or pay any attention to it. On the other hand we are fortunate that modern communications systems enable us to be aware of these events and mobilise support where necessary.

I welcome the Minister's statement that he is actively examining the proposal for an airstrip at Ngara. I hope he quickly finds resources to assist in the provision of that airstrip. I am quite certain that Concern would not have made the proposal and encouraged our participation in it if it did not see it as a viable and practical proposition.

When dealing with problems in places such as Rwanda, Burundi and Bosnia the most difficult aspect for us, in view of how far away we are from these countries, is finding some practical way to help the people. We can pass resolutions, urge action and hope that people at international level will make decisions but we have to ask what practical help we can give. The airstrip provides us with the satisfaction that we can make a practical contribution to easing the hardship and suffering of those people. I urge the Minister to act quickly, as he said he will, to do whatever he can to assist in the provision of the airstrip.

The Minister mentioned population control. Population, and the number of children per family, is always highest in areas where there is most poverty. It derives from economic factors as much as from the absence of contraception facilities. While contraception programmes are essential, improving the prosperty of the families concerned is of the utmost importance. Infant mortality and child health care should also be addressed. Where parents, for economic reasons, require children, they tend to have a large number to compensate for those who die in the first five years. That factor must also be addressed.

I am a little surprised at the strong emphasis the Minister has put on abortion. I am surprised the Minister feels it should be stated in such a strong and unequivocal way. What Ireland will not accept is the promotion of abortion as a means of population control. I have no objection to that as I do not see abortion as a population control method because it is an abuse of women. I see no argument for it. However, I would not like to see that position extended to constitute an interference with the decision of any country to provide abortion for reasons other than population control. That is my sole concern on that.

The Third World debt has been mentioned and it is increasingly obvious that this is fundamental to the survival of developing countries. It is important that we take practical steps to help where we can. I do not criticise the Minister for making contributions to the IMF fund to combat balance of payments problems in developing countries or to train poorer countries in debt management. However, that is like putting a sticking plaster on a broken leg.

The report of the development committee suggests a reasonable and rational way forward. When the Minister refers to it as helping to shape policy, if there are aspects of it with which he disagrees will he indicate them to the committee? The report is fairly comprehensive and I cannot see how sections of it would be unacceptable.

Deputy Connor spoke about fundamentalism and its victims the most obvious of which is democracy. Once fundamentalism gets a grip, there is no need for the fundamentalist to consult the people. All he has to do is consult his heart, God or whoever he claims is his mentor. The best antidote to fundamentalism is democracy and the development of democratic principles.

A friend of mine, a priest, works in a small, remote area of Tanzania thousands of miles from any type of modern development. He visited Ireland last year and asked me if we could help in providing educational materials. As a result of the problems in Tanzania in recent years, all the schools in the area in which he lives, which were provided many years ago, have fallen into dereliction. He needed blackboards, desks, chairs, pencils and other such simple materials which cost very little. He was in touch with the Department and may have got some assistance. I know he received assistance from Trócaire, who put him in touch with Senator Joe O'Toole of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation. He got some money from its small fund which may come on stream next year.

I raise this point to illustrate that people working quietly with little assistance can do much good. Perhaps more money should be put aside for that type of incidental expenditure, which does not involve huge programmes or developments in terms of building bridges or providing buildings, but relatively cheap infrastructural equipment. It would help enormously if a small fund could be made available. It struck me as odd that despite the fact that this man had worked for 20 years or more in that area, he did not know where to go for funds. Perhaps some information should be provided for people working in the field about what is available and how to get it.

Acting Chairman

That concludes the opening statements in accordance with the agenda. We now move to general questions on Vote 39.

I congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, on the fine job he is doing. Everyone knows of his genuine concern. We tend at times to share in the reflected glory of our many volunteers and religious who serve humankind in the Third World. We are very proud of them and are aware of the great credit they bring to this country. The least we can do is to listen to them and back them up with the necessary resources. We are best at supplying people who go in and do the job in hand. We are doing everything possible. The voluntary contributions from Irish people in percentage terms, are in excess of the contributions of many other countries which contribute at the exact level requested by the United Nations.

We must be careful not to impose our culture on others. As Deputy De Rossa said, large families have been part of the economic survival of families in countries such as India, Pakistan and Africa, due to the high death rate. Does the Minister of State have the latest figures on how many jobs would have to be created by 2020 to support the populations in these countries? I understand that more jobs than now exist throughout the entire world would have to be created. This will constitute a major problem for the future.

As Deputy De Rossa said, we have instant communication. We see things as they happen. Without that facility we might not have found out about the events in Rwanda until six months later. When we call for instant intervention by United Nations troops in these areas, as peacemakers rather than peace-keepers, we must consider whether we are willing to allow our people to volunteer for service there. I am sure we would get a number of volunteers. In a television programme recently an Army representative was asked whether troops would go to Rwanda and he said they would although a man from the ranks behind him shook his head to indicate that they would not.

To our horror, we heard that women in Rwanda were on their knees begging United Nations troops to shoot them, rather than allow tham to fall into the hands of those who would slaughter them. We should consider the shame of UN troops who stood and watched people being slaughtered because their mandate did not allow them to intervene. As a human being, I would probably have sacrificed my life by disobeying my orders and intervening. It is dreadful to have soldiers standing around watching people being killed. We must have some understanding, if the UN calls for direct intervention in genocide, that it can be interpreted by the officer in charge as permission to use arms to defend civilians. I understand what genocide involves. When the Minister of State said that he had not witnessed genocide on such a scale as in Rwanda in his lifetime, I shook my head, because I lived through a time when we witnessed genocide for a longer time and on a greater scale on the continent of Europe.

The greatest contribution this country can make is to provide people, food and medical supplies. I am concerned that some charities have very high overheads. People want to know that their contributions to charity will not be swallowed up in administration costs. The great thing about Bob Geldof was that the money he collected went directly to the people and delivery of that aid cost approximately 6p in each £1. We must keep a watchful eye on the charities. Small charities will be established and ruthless people will tell us they are collecting for Rwanda but not one penny will go there. People must be alerted to this because they are highly motivated and are giving beyond their means. We should ensure the money they are giving is going where it is intended.

We must examine the IMF to see if it can be changed. If the World Bank gives term loans, it expects them to be repaid. If we lend money to the World Bank, we expect to be repaid. It must be stressed that the World Bank will not lend money to countries who do not have the capacity to repay. We must give money by way of grants. A country unable to pay its debts will be turned down by the World Bank or the IMF.

We have to give direct aid and the best way to do that is by giving food. Another disturbing point made by Brother Tom yesterday was that the United Nations said nothing could be done in Rwanda until a truce was called. There will not be a truce while a "clique" as Brother Tom described them, takes over the government. We are not dealing with democracies. That must also be of concern when we are giving money as we want it to go directly to the people. In Sudan, we are constrained from giving money to the people who need it because of the fundamentalist regime there and the corruption, but we have to try.

I am worried that we might spread our contributions too thinly and not do anyone any good. I know that every life is important but we have to give our money to the highest priority areas to help save life in the first instance which is the most precious thing of all. I encourage the Minister to continue to do that. We all have a sense of helplessness and it is easy to make suggestions from a distance. However, we are at one with all those people who are giving of themselves. Many of us would like to go to Rwanda if we thought we would be of any use in helping the people.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy's contribution was more like a statement and I gave some latitude, but there was one question, though I doubt if the Minister can answer it, about the number of jobs required to cater for the populations in poorer countries.

I will comment briefly on some questions and issues raised by Deputy Briscoe. I agree that people are our greatest resource. A Trócaire study showed that per capita contributions in Ireland were higher than anywhere else in Europe. The Government has recognised the role of our people through increased funding to APSO which was involved in South Africa. That fact has been welcomed by this committee. I do not have figures on how many jobs would be required to sustain the poorer countries. I assessed the increase in population and the demands it would put on resources and it is generally agreed that it is a major issue. The Deputy talked about not imposing our culture on others and our approach to population issues will certainly be non-coercive and will respect traditions. I will return to these issues later.

On Rwanda, Deputy Briscoe talked about Brother O'Donoghue to whom I spoke. I also was greatly affected by what he said. The Deputy rightly referred to our ambivalence to intervention and I will return to that later. I have a few words to say about Rwanda, the World Bank, democracy and the role of women. I visited southern Sudan last year to witness what was happening with factions in the SPLA and to meet Irish aid workers. I spent a day or two in Khartoum to meet the government. I went to see our projects outside Khartoum. On women and development, in the community-based projects there I was delighted that Irish aid workers were emphasising the involvement of local women in tree planting, etc. Involvement of women was quite new in that district. That is one example, but there are many more, of how the Irish aid programme is focused on involving women. That is mentioned in the Strategy Plan. I wanted to report that one example in a country like Sudan where the Irish input was on a very localised basis.

Acting Chairman

May I remind Deputy Connor and others that we are into a question and answer session on the Estimate. I will be ruthless about long statements and explanations.

I shall of course obey your admonition to the letter. On subhead B — Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe — there is an increase from £81,000 to £140,000, or 73 per cent.

Acting Chairman

That was dealt with under the Tánaiste's Vote. There are two subheads in this. If you recall, in his speech the Tánaiste's said he would deal with two elements of Vote 39. I cannot allow you to raise it again with this Minister because it is not in his brief.

On subhead D, funding for APSO, there is an increase of 56 per cent from £4.5 million to £7 million. Will there be any difficulty in spending that money in 1994? It is an enormous sum of additional funding to absorb. One hopes that it will be absorbed and that appropriate people will be recruited for development work overseas. There might be a surfeit of economists and while I do not want to make disrespectful remarks about certain professions and disciplines, the people they need are experts in agriculture, teaching and the medical profession, including nursing. I hope the Minister will be able to report to us that the additional funding will be absorbed in the most meaningful way to deal with the problems. We congratulate the Minister on the 56 per cent increase.

Does the Minister think it wise that the vote for emergency and humanitarian assistance has been provisionally fixed at £4 million this year given the Rwandan crisis which could not have been envisaged when the Book of Estimates was prepared and that one must respond to it in terms of humanitarian assistance? I hope it will not be too difficult to find funding for humanitarian assistance. One never knows what sum of money will be needed. There are many constraints on our resources but I am worried that the current year's Estimates are 10 per cent below what we had to spend last year.

I notice a significant decrease under subhead L, assistance to eastern Europe. Does the Minister consider that wise? Would one not be forgiven for believing that our level of assistance to eastern Europe should increase? When the Tánaiste was present I should have mentioned the absence of diplomatic relations with countries in eastern Europe. We do not have a diplomatic presence in the new Czech Republics or in Hungary which will soom apply for membership of the European Union. I see nothing wrong with having diplomatic relations with Bulgaria, Romania or, indeed, with poor, unfortunate Albania. Countries such as Albania in eastern Europe have income and impoverishment problems as bad as those we find in sub-Saharan Africa. Is it not a pity that we are reducing the funding by a significant amount, 33 per cent this year?

Another issue relevant to developing countries is who is supplying and paying for conventional arms to belligerents, the impact of that and what can be done about it? This is of fundamental importance and the United Nations should interest itself in it because it has a serious impact on the problems in many developing countries.

Like Deputy Connor I, too, am delighted we were able to increase the allocation to APSO from £4.5 million to £7 million. It gives APSO an opportunity to fulfil its ambition to provide more people on the ground. The target, discussed during the debate on our Estimates last year, was 2,000. Some members questioned whether APSO should have submitted that figure and I understood the reason for those questions. However, the plan sets a target of 900 placements for 1994 and envisages the targets for future years being made on a year to year basis.

APSO is realising its targets in an orderly fashion and I am happy with that. I appreciate that it must be monitored and encouraged as it develops its programme. Those who have left teaching and similar employments to work with APSO found that it enriched their lives and the lives of those they met on their return. On humanitarian assistance, the sum voted last year was £3.35 million which is less than the £4 million allocated in 1994. In 1992 the figure was £1 million. We have increased the sum substantially. As emergencies arise we can respond as we have in the past.

What amounts?

It is difficult to know at the beginning of the year how many emergencies will arise. If an emergency arises which demands the assistance of the Irish Government and people, we will give such assistance in co-operation with our European partners.

The Deputy mentioned the allocation of £180,000 to eastern Europe. There are many useful ways to assist eastern Europe. I visited Romania and saw the work of the Irish volunteers in orphanages and with the handicapped. Of all the nationalities which came to the assistance of Rumania when there was obvious major needs, the Irish volunteers — numbering about 1,000 — were the ones who remained there. As Deputy Briscoe and others said, our people are our strongest resource in assisting underdeveloped countries and young democracies. I would like to see the allocation improved. There are many programmes such as PHARE, TACIS and others in operation. If a need arises and if we can identify areas of co-operation within the framework of the European Union we will certainly look at that.

Deputy O'Hanlon referred to the arms problem. The Tánaiste referred to that in the context of Rwanda and said that we have sought an arms embargo against that country. We continually raise arms supply and suppliers at UN level. This issue is related to mining. When I visited Cambodia I saw the effects of mining on the local people. Arms is on our agenda at UN and European Union level and I thank the Deputy for raising this matter.

Acting Chairman

In the briefing notes on Rwanda which we received yesterday, following a request from Deputy O'Hanlon at the meeting on the 3 May, there was a three page appendix on the technicalities of arms control and arms embargoes. Perhaps the Deputy might wish to look at that briefing material again.

I welcome the longer list of voluntary contributions to UN development agencies. However, I am concerned not so much that we are spreading our money thinly but that there be an effective system of checks and balances in the Department to monitor how the agencies spend the money. We should have a "hands on" approach. We are giving £4.5 million — an increase of £2 million on the figure last year — to these UN agencies and I would like to be sure that somebody in the Department is monitoring the agencies' spending. It was argued that increasing our ODA budget too swiftly may mean that the wrong projects may be imbursed.

There should be a cash fund, as suggested by Deputy De Rossa, to assist Irish priests, nuns and volunteers who make requests for small sums. It should be easy to secure such funding. Over the years I have assisted priests and sisters, who were made aware of my interest through their families, to get immediate interviews to request assistance during the two weeks or so they were at home. A priest with Irish connections, for example, needed a small sum of money to replace a boat engine. The boat was used to transport the products of his small rural community to the markets. he sought my help as there was no other system to help him. The Minister should develop a user-friendly method of helping such people from the increased budget which we all welcome.

I am disappointed to see a reduction under subhead H — Refugee Agency. The agency might not have asked for more money. However, in a year when the Government has promised to introduce a refugee protection Bill it is necessary to have an increased budget. I hope we will act responsibly in this area.

I would like further clarification of subhead I. This £180,000 is allocated to assist Irish consultancy firms and State agencies to undertake technical assistance. Where is the money in the budget for groups such as Cradle, which is trying to start a child project in Mostar? Is it in the figure for co-financing, under subhead C.2.(III)? Subhead I does not seem to cover this kind of assistance.

The assistance under subhead I could be given in a different form. Irish consultancies providing assistance in the emerging democracies in eastern Europe and elsewhere are disadvantaged by our tax system. These firms have lobbied for a reduction in taxes on money made from projects. Perhaps we could assist companies in the taxation area rather than by using our precious development aid. It does not seem appropriate for Irish consultancy firms to receive ODA assistance in order to tap into those markets. Perhaps this is a misrepresentation of the allocation of money under subhead I.

How many vehicles have been sold under subhead J to change that figure from £85,000 to £200,000 this year? Are these vehicles in Third World countries or in the Department's fleet here?

On arms sales and the Minister's reference to mines, it is estimated that 100 million mines have been planted around the world. The phrase used is "to plant mines" but they do not grow anything, they destroy life and limb.

One could use the term "sowing".

Indeed, they are sown from the air like seeds, which is appalling. About 200 people die each day as a result of exploding mines. These people are not involved in wars or conflicts they are simply tilling their fields and dying as a result of earlier conflicts. Will the Miniser detail for us the financial assistance this country is giving to demining programmes?

Further, what political action are we taking on the sale of mines by our European partners? Italy is a major manufacturer of mines and is a partner within the EU. While it is laudable to raise arms sales at UN level, it is equally important that it be raised at European level. This relates to common foreign and security policy which we discussed earlier. We cannot seriously discuss engaging in such a policy with countries providing weapons of death to other people around the world. We would be in an anomalous position in that our partners would provide guns, bombs and mines so that people can kill each other while we send in peace-keeping troops or a European army to stand between the combatants. This does not make sense. Will the Minister indicate what we are doing?

I am confused about the UN instruments we have signed. I understood from Trócaire or Oxfam that we had not signed one of those instruments and, therefore, were not involved directly in strengthening the UN initiative on mines. I received a written reply in the Dáil to the effect that we had signed all the instruments. I would like clarification on this issue.

The Chair asked about a reduction in funding under Subhead H. — Refugee Agency. Presumably that funding goes to the Irish Red Cross, the major refugee agency here. Does the Minister think the Department should take care of refugees rather than giving a substantial sum to a major agency to care for and protect refugees in Ireland? Our refugee policy is quite inadequate but the matter should be dealt with by the Department of Foreign Affairs rather than the Department of Justice. It is extraordinarily difficult for aliens to obtain work permits or citizenship in Ireland.

Acting Chairman

That is a matter for the Department of Justice.

I accept that, but my point is that it would be more appropriate to the Department of Foreign Affairs, which would have a far more open policy on the matter than the Department of Justice.

I raise this matter because, like other Deputies I have no right to any information on behalf of an alien who may be a constituent of mine, although not a voting constituent. I cannot find out why there may be delays of from five to ten years in the processing of claims. This is neither right nor proper. The Department of Justice by its nature is concerned with security and is secretive. This section should be transferred to the Department of Foreign Affairs. I do not want to burden the Minister with a problem, I simply want to make the point.

Acting Chairman

I congratulate Deputy Connor for sneaking that matter into the discussion. I call the Minister of State to answer the remaining questions and make his closing statement.

I will try to deal with questions in the order in which they were asked. Deputy Owen referred to UN agencies. We get reports on their activities from all such bodies. We closely monitor activities and participate in meetings of the executive board of the main UN agencies.

Our voluntary donations to UN bodies have almost doubled and we are selective in the bodies we support. The UN body on population was mentioned and most bodies we support deal with health and education.

The refugee agency is fully funded by the Department of Foreign Affairs and I have responsibility for the welfare of refugees. The Department of Justice has primary responsibility for legislation on the admission of refugees, as the Deputy is aware. The allocation for the agency includes a provision of £78,000 to cover the once-off acquisition of furniture for refugees, on the basis that they would otherwise be housed in unfurnished accommodation. To date refugees have been housed in furnished accommodation in the private rented sector and, accordingly, there is no need to make provision this year for furniture costs. That explains the reduction in costs.

Questions were asked about the allocations to eastern Europe under subhead I. The Cradle organisation was mentioned. I met its representatives recently to discuss its involvement in Mostar. I have given it £5,000 from the emergency fund to start a project.

Acting Chairman

Is that under subhead E?

Yes. ODA funding is not going to central and eastern Europe. We have a fund for eastern Europe. The Deputy mentioned ODA funding being used to assist consultancies, etc. We would give emergency funding for Cradle type initial projects on which we have agreed. If Cradle was involved — and I met this organisation and discussed this matter — in a rehabilitation or specific project, it could be funded through bilateral funding or the NGO co-financing scheme. I asked Cradle to put a project together and we will then discuss it. Cradle at this stage can do useful work funded by the emergency fund.

The majority of funds for vehicles are realised on the sale of used vehicles purchased originally from our Bilateral Aid Programme funds for use at the Development Co-operation offices and directly on aid projects in our priority countries to suit Tanzania, Zambia, Sudan, Ethiopia and Uganda. The allocation of £200,000 in Appropriations-in-Aid, is also used as a means of bringing to account receipts from various other sources, such as receipts from the Kilosa road project, sales of vehicles, spare parts, fuel and veterinary supplies from various projects. We can provide more details to the Deputy if he wishes.

Deputy De Rossa asked a question about mines. I approved and gave funding of £200,000 for a demining project in two provinces in Cambodia where we worked with Concern. Those moneys will also be used to train Cambodians. On land-mines, estimates suggest that 100 million land-mines have been planted during conflicts around the world and their toll on civilians is intolerable. It is estimated that up to 150 people are killed or maimed every week by these devices. It is only proper that Deputy De Rossa and Deputy O'Hanlon should raise this issue.

Our position on land-mines was made clear at the UN General Assembly in 1993 when we co-sponsored all three resolutions on the issue and the General Assembly Resolution 48/7, an initiative of the EU, was adopted unanimously by the plenary of the General Assembly on 19 October 1993. The resolution called on all states to introduce a moratorium on the export of land-mines, and Resolution 48/79 supported the convening of a review conference to strengthen the Inhumane Weapons Convention. The Deputy asked a question about this convention. Ireland signed the convention in 1981 and does not manufacture or trade in any weapons covered by the convention. A review conference of the convention has been called for 1995 and Ireland is currently taking steps to ratify the convention and hopes to be able to participate in the review conference in 1995 as a state party.

Is the Minister telling me that we signed the convention in 1981, but we have not ratified it yet?

When will that happen?

We are currently taking steps to ratify the convention. We will certainly consider this matter.

I do not wish to embarrass the Minister, but I understand we are not in a position to participate in the preparations and discussions for the 1995 review until we ratify the convention.

We will ratify it before the conference in 1995.

I understand the Government will do that, but——

That is next year. That we do not manufacture or trade in inhumane weapons shows our position. I accept the Deputy's point and we will ratify it as soon as possible.

We should be involved in the introductory discussions and negotiations about the shape of the new convention, because powerful interests are anxious to maintain the trade in land-mines.

We will ratify the convention. The point was made that the ODA would amount to 0.21 per cent of GNP this year. In fact, it will amount to 0.24 per cent of GNP.

On contributions which we make to various organisations throughout the world, I ask the Minister to look favourably on requests for contributions from parliamentarian organisations throughout the world such as AWEPA, which sponsored many Members of the House as observers to the elections in South Africa, and the Parliamentarians for Global Action. Both these organisations will visit the Department of Foreign Affairs and other Governments seeking a contribution, because that is how they exist. We should give them as generous a response as we possibly can.

I have been an observer with the United Nations, AWEPA and an American organisation and I assure the Minister that the best organisation to spend money is the United Nations, but the best return was from AWEPA. It is not only involved in observation, but in voter education programmes, etc. The same is true of Parliamentarians for Global Action. This year there will be a number of significant elections in countries, such as Mozambique and Malawi, in which we are interested in the democratisation process. Therefore, it is only proper to make money available to these organisations which carry out such excellent work. They draw from a pool of experts for their work, including—and I do not wish to be self indulgent — parliamentarians, who by and large do the work for them. It would be difficult to find better experts to engage in voter education programmes, observing elections and so on.

I agree with Deputy Connor that AWEPA is a fine organisation. I worked with Deputy Connor, the Chairperson and that organisation in fighting apartheid. As a means of bringing European parliamentarians together, it has fulfilled a most useful role. We funded the organisation and propose to give it £60,000 in 1994. I am also aware of Parliamentarians for Global Action. We will look at applications for projects or programmes as soon as they come in. I cannot give any commitment because it would impact on our strategy and development programmes.

The review conference on the convention, to which we referred will take place in 1995. Ireland recently participated as a signatory State at the committee in Geneva, preparing for the review conference. Although we had not ratified the convention, we were not stopped from participating. I thank Deputy De Rossa for raising this matter.

I will now deal with specific issues raised by speakers in their opening comments. Deputy Connor mentioned debt, population, the role of women, fundamentalism and Rwanda. Deputy De Rossa talked about South Africa, Rwanda, debt, population, IMF, democracy and about a specific case in Tanzania. In my opening statement I said I regarded debt as an important issue we wished to address because I am aware of the implications of the debt burden in developing countries.

I outlined a number of tangible measures we may adopt. Ireland does not give loans to other countries, we give grants. We must use our voice in the IMF and similar bodies. I am prepared to do this and to urge the Minister for Finance to do so also. In fact, before he spoke to the World Bank last year, I had a number of meetings with Oxfam and others and passed on the views of NGOs to the Minister. One of my responsibilities is to work closely with NGOs and I was glad the Minister, Deputy Ahern, incorporated many of their views in his speech. There is a limit to what we can do, but we have a responsibility to speak out.

We may not agree with all the recommendations of the Oireachtas committee. The recommendation to sell 10 per cent of the IMF reserves to write off Africa's debt is not practical but other recommendations merit careful consideration and I assure Deputies they will be examined.

On population, Deputy Connor suggested that 4 per cent of our budget be spent on population projects. We decided to increase funding to the UN population fund, however, I am not convinced a target of 4 per cent, is a good idea. Many areas need support, including human rights and development education, an area about which we have done something this year. We increased the amount of money spent on population projects from £50,000 last year to £150,000 this year and we are prepared to increase it further. From what I gather, Deputies agree that population development is part of the agenda with which we must deal.

Deputy De Rossa mentioned abortion which became an issue during discussions in the UN. I pointed out that Ireland would not accept abortion as a means of population control and I welcome the consensus on that. I made this point also to our EU partners and that position will be maintained in Cairo where abortion and population control will be discussed.

The Minister dealt with a number of questions about Rwanda. The prompt response from the Government is in line with the feelings of the people. Since becoming Minister of State with responsibility for development assistance, I have responded to problems as quickly as possible. That involves close consultation and work with NGOs. I am glad Deputies agree we have the best NGOs in the world. In this case we are talking about Concern, Trócaire and the Irish Red Cross. Our response to date has been to the tune of approximately £500,000.

At the EU Development Council meeting I insisted that the EU send a mission, consisting of a troika of development ministers, to the neighbouring states to assess the problems and to try to deal with them. On the question of providing an airstrip in Tanzania, we are looking urgently at this in co-operation with Concern and our office in Dar-es-Salaam. I will keep Deputies informed of developments.

Deputy Connor and Deputy Owen said we should act quickly and lead the way. At an early stage in this conflict, I wrote to Prime Minister Malecela of Tanzania where we have a strong bilateral programme and urged him to continue his efforts to end the violence. In the Dáil and here today the Minister outlined the political framework involving the UN, the OAU, an expanded UN force, more action from the EU, increased aid, an arms embargo and — Deputies made an important point about the human rights dimension — the involvement of the Human Rights Commissioner.

My Department will focus on the development aspect in South Africa. I visited the Soweto region and saw at first hand the needs of people. We will focus on medium rather than long term projects because we must support this historical transition to democracy. Approximately £500,000 will be allocated this year. It is important that we become involved in a long term programme, which we could agree with the new Government in South Africa. Deputies will appreciate we have not yet reached that stage and, as we said in the strategy plan, we will focus on medium term projects. Deputy Owen rightly identified education and public administration as key areas.

We can use our NGO co-financing scheme in this regard. One of the grass roots projects we are supporting is in a place called Orange Farm. It is important to support projects in the black community urban areas. We will look sympathetically at additional applications for assistance. They will be considered by the NGO co-financing scheme. Other organisations we have supported, include the Sisters of Mercy in the education and health areas. We have an extremely interested active ambassador in South Africa whom I have met. I assure Deputies that we will give this area our full attention and will work through the EU.

Deputy Briscoe referred to accountability of NGOs. The Minister and I have said time and again that because of the increase in funding, there is a need for good accounting systems. I mentioned this to the NGOs who have formed a new umbrella body called Dóchas. We discussed the need for accountability in funding, advance evaluation and post project assessment.

Deputy De Rossa referred to a friend in Tanzania involved in a project which needed school equipment, etc. As Minister of State with responsibility for development aid, I would like to support such projects and I will give this project my immediate attention. Many excellent projects are supported by missionaries and others throughout the world. I am anxious that they get in touch because we should spread our resources as widely as possible while concentrating resources on good quality projects, which will have an effect on communities in poor regions.

Acting Chairman

That concludes the consideration by the Select Committee of the Estimates for the Department of Foreign Affairs. I propose the following draft report:

The select Committee has considered the Estimates for the Public Services 1994 for the Department of Foreign Affairs and the other Estimates relevant to that Department. The Estimates are hereby reported to the Dáil. Is that agreed?

Report agreed to.

Ordered to Report to the Dáil accordingly.

Acting Chairman

On behalf of the Chair and the Select Committee I thank the Minister of State and the Tánaiste who was with us for the morning, for what has been a worthwhile exchange of views. I also thank Mr. Noel Dorr, the Secretary of the Department, and the other officials who have stayed with us throughout the day and who during the year have been extremely co-operative and helpful, giving us good briefings and being prepared to spend many hours in discussion with the committee. We look forward to that continued co-operation. The experience and training officials have obviously received at Council of Ministers meetings over the years certainly pays off. We saw it in action today. I thank the Members and the excellent staff of the committee who stayed with us all day and prepared for this meeting.

The Select Committee adjourned at 3.35 p.m.

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