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Gnáthamharc

Select Committee on Foreign Affairs díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Jun 1995

Vote 38 — Foreign Affairs (Revised Estimate).

I remind Members that this morning, from 10.30 until 1.30 p.m. and this afternoon from 3.30 p.m. until 4.30 p.m. we meet as the Select Committee of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. Our business on the Estimates is carried out by the select committee which consists only of Members of the Dáil but other Members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs are welcome to observe.

We will consider the Estimate. We are not called to vote on it as this is a matter for a plenary session. Between 2 p.m. and 3 p.m. we will go into session as the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs to meet a group of ambassadors from Arab states who have requested the opportunity to address us.

A timetable has been circulated. I propose that from 10.30 a.m. to 10.45 a.m. we will have an opening statement from the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs but, mutatis mutandi, allowance will be made for the fact that we are a little late starting. I welcome the Tánaiste on the occasion of his first visit to the second Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs. From 10.40 a.m. to 11.30 a.m. there will be statements from the Opposition parties and from 11.30 a.m. until 1.30 p.m. there will be questions and answers. All this will deal with Vote 38 for Foreign Affairs. In the afternoon we will address the Vote for International Co-operation, although I understand that in his opening remarks this morning the Tánaiste intends to cover the two Votes.

Thank you, Chairman, and thank you, Members, for your welcome. I am pleased to participate again this year in the discussions on the revised Estimates for Foreign Affairs and International Co-operation.

Since I met the committee in its earlier formation just over one year ago, the European and international land-scape have undergone considerable change. The EU has been enlarged; a new Commission and a new Parliament are in place and relations continue to strengthen with the countries of central and eastern Europe. The World Trade Organisation has begun its stewardship of the newly liberalised world economy, South Africa has celebrated the first anniversary of democratic multi racial Government and the Middle East peace process has reached a critical juncture. On our own island, the introduction of peace in Northern Ireland has introduced a critical new dynamic in the search for lasting political agreement.

However, in the international political arena, black spots remain. There are fears that Bosnia is once again slipping towards a generalised resumption of hostilities. The conflict in Chechnya continues to be a matter of the gravest concern and the Rwandan tragedy is still being played out. As the UN celebrate its 50th anniversary, international confidence in the organisation badly needs to be renewed and strengthened.

As time does not permit me to address the full spectrum of foreign policy issues I propose to concentrate on a number of topics of current interest and I will be glad to respond on any matters of interest to the committee in our questions and answers session. I will first address the specific subject matter of today's agenda; the 1995 Estimates.

The total amount of money that Ireland spends on our foreign relations costs less than 0.5 per cent of what the Government spends in total. This compares very favourably with other countries of comparable size, none of which has as many of their population living abroad as we have. The value for money represented by our foreign relations effort is achieved mainly by a highly dedicated and committed staff which has coped over the years with an ever increasing array of tasks.

However, the combination of static resources and increasing work-load is not sustainable indefinitely. Following a comprehensive review earlier this year, I concluded that there was a compelling need for a limited strengthening of structures at headquarters and of the overseas mission network, as well as for some specific steps with regard to our Presidency of the EU.

As the committee is aware, the Government has agreed that new embassies will open this year in Hungary, the Czech Republic and Malaysia. Both from a EU and bilateral perspective, our present under-representation in eastern Europe could not have been allowed to continue. The Union's enlargement to the east will be a central preoccupation over the period ahead. Key Irish interests are engaged in this debate as we seek to encourage the enlargement process while ensuring that it takes place in the context of a deepening of European integration and the maintenance of key union policies.

In bilateral foreign earnings terms, the cost benefit case for the new eastern European missions is compelling. Equally, a resident embassy in Malaysia will be of vital assistance in strengthening our links with one of the fastest growing economic regions in the world. To ensure the sharpest possible foreign earnings focus, the Government has decided that these new embassies will take the Ireland House concept one step further, with representatives of An Bord Tráchtála being integrated to the staffing structure at the outset. As a matter of general policy, I am determined that the promotion of Irish economic interests abroad, whether trade tourism or inward investment, will remain among the highest priorities of my Department and that our co-operation with the semi State promotional agencies will continue to be strengthened.

At home, the Department staffing structure is being strengthened to deal with new work-loads, especially in the political, Anglo-Irish and economic divisions. A special allocation for Presidency preparations is being used to meet the costs of a major upgrade of information technology and communications facilities, additional temporary staff assignments and necessary maintenance and refurbishment work at certain missions abroad.

I intend to ensure a continued strong emphasis on the effective and efficient use of resources, with new pressures being met wherever possible through redeployment. The disciplines of strategic management are increasingly being brought to bear and the active implementation of the strategic management initiative will continue. With nearly half of the Deparment's total expenditure being incurred abroad, in countries where living and working costs are generally rising much faster than in Ireland, rigorous financial controls will remain essential.

The programme subheads account for just 3 per cent of the overall Departmental Vote. I am sure the committee will welcome the increase again this year in the allocation of North-South and Anglo-Irish co-operation. The substantial increase in information services is accounted for by the new edition of "Facts about Ireland", which was recently published, and production costs of the forthcoming White Paper on foreign policy.

Turning from management to policy issues, it is fitting to begin with Northern Ireland. It is not an exaggeration to say the situation has been transformed over the past 12 months. Consolidation of the peace process is now the crucial priority. The momentum for progress has been dramatically illustrated in recent days. A week ago today, an unprecedented royal visit began. Two weeks ago today, we were on our way to the Washington Economic Conference in which President Clinton personally played such a hugely important part. These have been only the latest in a series of significant milestones on the road forward.

The Washington Conference was a remarkable symbol of what we can hope to achieve by acting together. Never before has there been so comprehensive a gathering, in one place and at one time, of political representatives from the major traditions on the island. It demonstrated vividly that once-frozen lines of political division and demarcation are now giving way, however slowly, to real willingness to listen to the views of others, explore common ground and identify possible ways forward. This is particularly evident on the economic agenda. I saw this dimension yesterday in the course of a very constructive visit to Harland and Wolff, which would have been considered unthinkable for an Irish Government Minister even a short time ago.

There is an onus on the two Governments to foster the opening which now exists for comprehensive dialogue. In particular, I hope for constructive engagement and progress in the dialogue between the British Government and Sinn Féin. The importance of the various issues, including decommissioning, which are being addressed within that dialogue is understood on all sides. Both Governments wish to ensure that Sinn Féin can play its full part in an inclusive talks process.

It is my strong hope too that the Unionist parties will feel able at the earliest possible date to accept the invitation of the Irish Government to engage in discussions on the way forward. We can best make progress if we all have the clearest possible understanding of each other's position and if we together explore what scope there may be for flexibility in ways that do not compromise essential interests. Both Governments hope bilateral discussions of this kind can lead in due course to a collective talks process involving them and all the relevant parties.

A willingness to engage in dialogue is essential to the development of true understanding between the two traditions in Ireland. I hope all the political parties in Northern Ireland will grasp this opportunity to inform us of their views at first hand and to set out with us on the journey towards lasting peace, stability and reconciliation.

Turning to the wider European scene, our sights are now firmly set on our Presidency of the Union in the second half of next year. Two issues are likely to dominate our Presidency, First, there is the high profile Intergovernmental Conference to review the Maastricht Treaty, which is likely to be in session for the duration of our Presidency. Second, there is the decision on the move to the third stage of Economic and Monetary Union which must be taken not later than 31 December 1996.

The Presidency challenge does not come around often; it is likely to be 2003 at the earliest before we hold the office again. Our Presidency follows that of four large member states; Germany, France, Spain and Italy. I am acutely conscious that our performance will be judged against the background of a view among some members of the Union that the smaller member states are no longer capable of adequately carrying out the responsibilities of the Presidency. There will therefore be an onus on us to carry out the responsibilities of the Presidency well; I am determined that we will do so with full honours.

Last weekend, I participated in the ceremonies marking the fortieth anniversary of the Messina conference which launched the negotiations leading to the conclusion of the Treaty of Rome. It was fitting that the inaugural meeting of the Reflection Group of Personal Representatives of Foreign Ministers, which will play an important role in preparing the agenda of the 1996 Intergovernmental Conference, took place in Messina in conjunction with these commemorative ceremonies. The reflection group, on which my colleague the Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs, Deputy Gay Mitchell, is the Irish representative, will work intensively in the coming months to develop the agenda of the 1996 Intergovernmental Conference and, where possible, prepare options which might be considered by the Intergovernmental Conference. The group is expected to report to the Madrid European Council in December.

The agenda of the Intergovernmental Conference requires careful and detailed preparation on our part. Ireland will have to come to the negotiating table with a clear idea of how we wish to see European integration develop in an enlarged Union and of the institutional reforms necessary to facilitate the efficient functioning of the Union. We will have to seek a careful balance between the protection of our short or medium term interests in the Union and our long term interest in the preservation of peace and stability on the continent.

In the coming months, the Minister of State Deputy Mitchell and I, together with officials from my Department, will discuss our negotiating approach to the reflection group and the Intergovernmental Conference with the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and the Joint Committee on European Affairs to ensure the views of the committees are considered in the preparation of our national position on the issues which will arise. We will also, of course, ensure that the committees are kept fully informed of the progress of the negotiations.

The crisis in former Yugoslavia continues to pose perhaps the most difficult challenge to the European Union and, indeed, to the whole of the international community. Recent developments could lead to the unravelling of the progress which has been so painstakingly made in the peace process, including the return to normal life in central Bosnia with the end of the war between Government forces and those of Bosnia's Croats. Moreover, UNPROFOR has been placed in what is without doubt the gravest of situations since its establishment. A profound review of the UN's mandate in Bosnia is now under way in the Security Council on the basis of a number of options identified by the Secretary General.

Ireland has one basic objective in our policy on former Yugoslavia: the conclusion of an overall settlement to the conflicts, one which guarantees the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all of the states, within their internationally recognised borders, and which also ensures respect for human rights. We participate fully in the work of the International Conference on Former Yugoslavia, co-chaired by the EU and the UN, which provides the framework for a negotiated settlement to the conflicts in the Yugoslav region. We fully support the efforts under way to have the Cessation of Hostilities Agreement renewed and to bring the Bosnian Serbs to accept the Contact Group's Plan which has already been endorsed by the Bosnian Government and by Belgrade on behalf of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. With our EU partners, we are fully engaged in the effort to bring about the mutual recognition of Bosnia and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. If achieved, this would be a major contribution towards peace in the region as it would signal that a greater Serbia is not attainable.

We are also continuing our efforts to prevent the spill-over of conflict and to bring aid to its victims by contributing personnel to the EU monitor mission, the UN peacekeeping forces, the EU humanitarian aid task force, the mission of the international conference which is monitoring the closure of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia's border with Bosnia, and through our participation with the OSCE's Sanctions Assistance Mission.

Elsewhere on the continent, the conflict in Chechnya continues to command our attention. Heavy fighting is continuing in the mountainous region of the Republic. The OSCE Assistance Group which was deployed in Grozny in late April is working constructively on the ground. The agreement by the parties to the conflict to hold talks in Grozny on 25 May under OSCE auspices marked an important development. While both sides concentrated in the talks on a general statement of their positions, all of the participants agreed on the desirability of a cease-fire and acceptance that at the next meeting they would start working on the modalities necessary for a cease-fire agreement. Although no date was set for a resumption of the talks, it is the intention of the OSCE to reconvene the talks at an early date. It is imperative that both sides now demonstrate a firm political will to engage in serious and constructive negotiations at the OSCE-sponsored talks with the aim of concluding a lasting cease-fire and a peaceful political solution. The Government will continue to work actively towards this objective, both bilaterally, in co-operation with our EU partners, as well as within the framework of the OSCE.

Of course, there are flash points and loss of life well beyond the shores of Europe. The continuing tragedy in Rwanda erupted in the massacre at Kibeho camp on 22 April which the Government has strongly condemned. The international community including the EU must continue to do what it can to encourage the Government of Rwanda in its task of achieving justice, national reconciliation and reconstruction. We shall continue our support of the Rwandan Government in its efforts to restore normality to the lives of the Rwandan people, while at the same time monitoring their activities in this respect.

I am aware of the committee's resolution on placing an arms embargo on Burundi and Rwanda and we are pursuing this issue with our European partners. We support controls on the supply of arms, and we also support the building up of infrastructure, administration and the judicial system so that order may be restored. Ireland has given over £4 million in emergency assistance in the region over the past year.

One of the common features of conflicts around the world is flagrant violation of universal human rights standards. A concern for human rights will remain the centre of Irish foreign policy whatever the future evolution of our co-operation with our European partners. Any genuine conception of European security must include a continuing emphasis on implementation of human rights standards in our own continent and globally.

As I have already announced during the consultative process for the forthcoming White Paper, I am taking steps to further strengthen the human rights function in the Department of Foreign Affairs. A new human rights unit is being established in the political division of the Department and it will be fully operational in the coming weeks. I am confident it will play a crucial role in giving expression to one of the most important priorities of the Irish people in the foreign policy arena.

Against the background of the changing international climate, the future security and defence arrangements in Europe continue to be a focus for debate. The various organisations with responsibilities for European security and defence are reviewing how best they can contribute to the evolving European security architecture. For Ireland, both on a national basis and as a member of the EU, the question is how best we can guarantee our own security and contribute to security in our region and internationally.

A common thread throughout all this debate is a recognition that conflict prevention and peace-keeping are increasingly seen as core activities for security co-operation. In the context of the CFSP provisions of the Maastricht Treaty, the EU and the Western European Union continue to develop their co-operation in this area. The EU administration of Mostar, for which the Western European Union is providing the policing element, is a concrete example of this co-operation.

In the OSCE, there is an increasing emphasis on developing the organisation's role in early warning, conflict prevention and crisis management. The number of OSCE missions to areas of actual or potential conflict has continued to increase. The question of possible Irish participation in OSCE peace-keeping and humanitarian operations is one that requires consideration as our current legislation foresees such involvement only under UN authority.

Another issue which needs to be considered in the role of NATO's Partnership for Peace in European security co-operation; 42 countries are now involved with peace-keeping providing a focus for their co-operation in the Partnership for Peace framework. I have already made clear my view that we should examine whether participation in Partnership for Peace would benefit Ireland.

This committee's work so far on European security and defence issues is a welcome contribution to the developing debate. I initiated the debate last year because I believe it is essential that the Irish people have a full understanding of the changes in international security and their implications for Ireland.

In this context, it is significant that the question of security and defence will be a key topic for the Intergovernmental Conference next year. The Government's approach will be a constructive one, based on the commitments in the programme A Government of Renewal— namely that we will play our full part in the EU and that our foreign policy will continue to be underpinned by our commitment to peace, security and co-operation.

All these issues can be debated in the knowledge that the Government is committed to putting to the people in a referendum any outcome of the Intergovernmental Conference negotiations that would entail Ireland's involvement in a common defence policy. This will ensure that Ireland's policy of military neutrality will remain unchanged unless the people decide otherwise.

At the recent NPT review and extension conference, the States' party decided to extend the treaty indefinitely. I am pleased the outcome of the conference corresponds with Ireland's objectives. Far from legitimising the possession of nuclear weapons, the indefinite extension of the treaty has placed a continuing obligation on the nuclear weapon states to pursue nuclear disarmament. The enhanced review arrangements mean that the nuclear weapon states will have to answer to other States' party as to their implementation of pledges set out in the programme of action including "the determined pursuit by the nuclear weapon states of systematic and progressive efforts to reduce nuclear weapons globally, with the ultimate goal of eliminating those weapons". The Government will do all it can to see that the nuclear weapon states are held to this pledge.

In recent years four of the five nuclear powers — Britain, France, Russia and the United States — have introduced unilateral moratoria on nuclear testing. The Government has welcomed these moves and we have called on China to introduce a similar ban. I am deeply concerned at reports that a French experts commission has recommended a resumption of nuclear testing by France; 25 years after the entry into force of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and five years after the end of the cold war the Government sees no justification for the stocks of nuclear weapons and fissile materials that exist today.

I call on the French Government and the other nuclear powers to maintain their unilateral moratoria until agreement is reached on a comprehensive test-ban treaty. In this context, Ireland wants to see the pace of negotiations on the CTBT intensified with a view to agreement next year on a treaty that will ban testing in atmospheres for all time.

Subheads A and B of the International Co-operation Vote deal with our contributions to international organisations. The principal component here remains our contribution to the United Nations. This year the UN celebrates its 50th anniversary. Our national committee for the anniversary, under the patronage of the President, held its inaugural meeting on 11 April. It is a broadly based committee with Members from the Oireachtas, NGOs. and the public and private sectors under my chairmanship. A programme of events has been drawn up and there will be a particular focus on the later part of the year when the entry force of the UN Charter on 24 October 1945, will be commemorated.

However, as we mark the 50th anniversary the UN continues to face a difficult financial situation. The figures speak for themselves. As of 30 April 1995 the UN was owed $1 billion in regular budget arrears and $1.6 billion on the peace-keeping account. A small number of the larger member states were responsible for the bulk of these arrears. Ireland, in common with our EU partners, pays its assessed contributions to the UN in full and on time, as all member states are required to do under the charter.

Recent proposals in the US Congress to substantially cut the US contribution to the UN system, including humanitarian and technical agencies, seriously threaten the organisation in its 50th year. They follow an earlier decision by the US Administration to reduce unilaterally its contribution to UN peace-keeping to 25 per cent from 1 October 1995. The EU has made known its concern regarding these proposed cuts in Washington. I personally raised this concern with US Secretary of State Warren Christopher at our meeting last February.

The UN operation in Somalia — UNOSOM II — came to an end in March this year and the UN is still learning the lessons of that experience. One effect has been a renewed emphasis on the more traditional methods of peace-keeping to which the Irish Defence Forces have made such a significant contribution. It is the Government's intention that they will continue to do so in the future. Whatever the difficulties which UNOSOM faced we can be proud of the humanitarian contribution made by the Irish transport company in Somalia.

Irish Defence Forces personnel and other volunteers served the humanitarian cause in the Rwandan refugee crisis last year. The UN was heavily criticised for its failure to respond more rapidly to this situation. We should recognise, however, that this failure was more one of the international community rather than of the UN itself. The organisation is simply not adequately equipped to respond quickly enough to such crises without the support of its member states. When I addressed the UN General Assembly last September I stressed the need to develop the organisation's capacity for early warning and mediation, and to make its peace-keeping capabilities more flexible and responsive.

While the financial cost of the UNPROFOR operation is significant, we are acutely conscious there is an even greater cost as the recent tragic death of Garda Sergeant Paul Reid in an accident in Sarajevo reminds us. As we mark the 50th anniversary of the UN and 40 years of Ireland's membership we will remember in particular those members of the Defence Forces and the Garda serving with UN peace-keeping operations who made the ultimate sacrifice for peace.

Whatever the current financial and other problems faced by the UN, it has been the consistent position of successive Irish Governments that the organisation plays a unique and irreplaceable role in the maintenance of international peace and security. The Government remains committed to this view and we are actively contributing to the ongoing debate on the future of the organisation in various UN working groups, including those on the reform of the Security Council and the financial situation of the organisation. It is our hope that when heads of state and government gather next October in New York they will not only mark the first 50 years of the UN but will renew the international community's confidence in the organisation.

Subheads C to J of the International Co-operation Vote relate to development co-operation. I am very pleased it has been possible to include a major increase in official development assistance in the Estimates for 1995. Total spending on ODA this year will amount to around £89 million — made up of £66 million from this Vote and the remainder from other Departments' Votes and Central Funds.

This is the third year running that ODA has had a very significant increase. It represents further proof of our unswerving commitment to help the most needy, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa. I can say without hesitation that I am proud of this achievement. Even at a time when the economic indicators are improving it is not easy to secure major increases in any area of expenditure, however deserving. It is a mark of the Government's determination to bring our ODA up to the same level as that of our EU partners that we have made these large increases in the ODA budget. In the afternoon session my colleague Minister of State, Deputy Burton, will explain in more detail the provisions under the ODA subheads in the International Co-operation Vote.

All the issues I mentioned will be discussed in considerably more detail in the forthcoming White Paper on Foreign Policy which I intend to lay before both Houses of the Oireachtas in the near future. This will be the first time an Irish Government will have undertaken such a comprehensive public presentation of its foreign policy. The Government is determined its foreign policy should be accessible to the public and that it should have the widest possible understanding and support. The preparation of the White Paper has been greatly facilitated both by the wealth of written submissions received and the process of direct consultation with the public through the series of public seminars held.

I wish to record my appreciation of the valuable contribution which this committee is making in the foreign policy area generally. Its work will continue to have my full personal commitment and the support and active co-operation of officials of my Department. We are acutely conscious there is no monopoly of wisdom in addressing issues as complex and sensitive as those I have touched on this morning. Informed and inclusive debate is essential if we are to chart a way forward that commands public confidence and support. This committee has a vital role in that process.

The committee welcomes the Tánaiste's undertaking on the Intergovernmental Conference — to have discussions with the committee and keep us informed during the progress of the negotiations. The committee will wish to discuss matters as they unfold with the Tánaiste and the Minister of State, Deputy Mitchell.

Regarding the issues of security and defence, the Tánaiste will recall that the committee recently sent him a copy of our report, which we wish to have discussed in plenary session in the Houses of the Oireachtas. Perhaps at a later date we could hold a separate discussion with the Tánaiste on the contents of the White Paper and other matters as they develop.

I am sure the committee wishes to welcome the establishment of a new human rights unit in the political division of the Department. Many members of the committee have mentioned this recently. Finally, the members of the committee involved in the delegation which visited our colleagues in the Hungarian Parliament last week welcome the Tánaiste's decision to increase the level of our representation in central and eastern European countries.

I join the Chairman in welcoming the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs to the committee and I thank him for his comprehensive statement. As he stated at the outset, given the time constraints, it merely touched on some areas on which he would have liked to expand. I also welcome the Minister of State and the Department officials.

As this will probably be the last occasion on which we will have the pleasure of the presence of the Secretary, Mr. Noel Dorr, I express our appreciation of his work on behalf of the Irish people over so many years in various roles and positions within the Department of Foreign Affairs. His has been a unique contribution to the development of Foreign Affairs and in a special way to the development of the peace process. Many are praised and their contributions mentioned, but from my personal knowledge, from my time as Minister for Justice when I dealt with this area for three or four years, I am very conscious of the contribution of Mr. Noel Dorr. The nation owes our public service a considerable debt, although it has become fashionable in some circles to attack it. These attacks should stop. In a special way, Mr. Noel Dorr exemplifies the finest attributes and commitment of the public service. He will be a big loss to it and I wish him well in his retirement. I extend our best wishes to him and his family.

It is undoubtedly and thankfully the fact that the most significant occurrence during 1994 was the peace process and the declaration of the ceasefire on 31 August. The transformation, not just within the Six Counties but throughout the whole island, has been quite spectacular. Having lived through a generation with a war, where many thousands were killed, many tens of thousands injured and maimed and millions of pounds worth of property damaged, the transformation which has come about since 31 August last is something of which we should be very pleased and proud.

However, challenges also face us. Before dealing with this aspect, I wish to mention that the Tánaiste, the former Taoiseach, Deputy Albert Reynolds, and the current Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton, in conjunction with Mr. John Hume, Mr. Gerry Adams, and Mr. John Major, played very significant roles. This was part of a building block type effort, which had been going on for many years, and I was glad to play a minor role in it myself at one stage under the leadership of the then Taoiseach, Mr. Charles Haughey, and working with my colleague, the then Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Gerard Collins.

The challenge ahead is to build on the process and the end of the war. This needs dialogue and I am glad to note that the Tánaiste is continuing his visits to the North. He was there yesterday and that is as it should be. I had the privilege of going to the North of a number of occasions with my party leader, Deputy Bertie Ahern, and meeting representatives from all sides of the Nationalist, republican, Unionist and loyalist communities.

It is essential that visits by Members on all sides of the House continue because one thing which comes across in discussions with the loyalist and Unionist community is the question of fear. They fear as to their future, their place on the island, our role and our view of them in the context of a republican nation. It is most important that we are able to meet and discuss the future. One special opportunity to do this was provided by the President of the United States of America and this should be acknowledged at the committee. The Tánaiste acknowledged it and I second his vote of thanks to President Clinton for organising the economic conference on the North and the six Border counties.

It was much more than an economic conference. It was a very special event which brought together representatives of all walks of life on this island and the United States. They were very proud moments for us at the conference when we saw Vice-President Gore on the first night and, on the morning of the opening of the conference, President Clinton together with Secretary of State Christopher, Commerce Secretary Browne and the former Senate majority leader George Mitchell. When one thinks of that high powered presence and the concentrated spotlight on an island with a population of five million, it was a very special time for this nation. I look forward to the visit of President Clinton to this country. I hope the Irish people respond to him with the warmth he deserves for the contribution he has made to this island during his presidency. He richly deserves the people of this country to come out in their tens of thousands. In the context of the conference, I also wish to mention the role played by the US ambassador to Ireland, Mrs. Jean Kennedy Smith. She has been a very special friend to Ireland in her work during her period in office.

We must move on to dialogue. To help this forward, the UK Government must be seen to move on one key issue, the question of prisoners. The Irish Government has responded and rewarded the peace process. The same must happen in relation to the loyalist and republican prisoners. The prisoners played a major role in bringing about the peace process and there must be some movement in relation to their position in the period ahead.

There must also be dialogue. I have no regret in relation to the last number of months, which is that, despite continuous pressure in the Dáil from my party Leader, myself and other Fianna Fáil spokespersons, it took until about ten days or a fortnight ago for the Taoiseach to extend invitation under Strand II of the Framework Document to the various parties to participate in talks. It is vitally important that the process is not stalled and that the Government and Taoiseach see themselves as facilitators rather than as initiators and ensure that the process proceed not at the British pace but at a pace we set, as far as we can, in those areas under our control. I hope we will then proceed from the Strand II talks to all-inclusive talks with all the Northern parties because it is vitally important that we get on with the process. It is not set in stone and the foundations have to be built on.

I will move from Northern Ireland to the question of the upcoming Presidency of the European Union. This is an important challenge, not just for the Government but for the nation. The last Presidency came at a time of momentous change within Europe. We had the opportunity and the privilege of having two heads of state meetings here to discuss German unification. They were important occasions and it was an important Presidency, with much work being done. I take this opportunity to wish the Government every success in its Presidency.

The six months period of the Intergovernmental Conference will be central to the Presidency. It would be unreasonable to expect the Government to complete the work in the six months as it is coming up to a British general election, etc. Major decisions will be taken in 1997, so it is understandable that the work will not be completed during autumn 1996; but that six months period is crucial. From a national point of view, it is important that we preserve our national interests but are also seen to do a good job on behalf of the European Union.

On the role of the Intergovernmental Conference and upcoming issues we had a good discussion yesterday with the Minister of State, Deputy Mitchell, who is the representative on the reflection group and he was very forthcoming. One point I made was that the biggest single change is the threat of institutional change in the Union. The role of the Commission is vital and it is important that we be seen to preserve that role and, in particular, the initiation powers of the Commission. The success of Europe has been the role of the Commission and as we face enlargement, its role must be preserved and strengthened. The role of the Council of Ministers should also be maintained.

There is a tendency to talk about the need for greater openness and greater democratisation of the Union. That is fine as far as it goes; but the Union is a special organisation. One cannot give all of the power to a Parliament of 750 members. Within that Parliament we would end up having 12 out of 750 members instead of 15 members, one Minister on the Council and one member of the Commission. I do not have to say much more about that. The Commission and the Council are vital to the future of the Union, as far as smaller member states are concerned. The right of each member state to nominate a commissioner is absolutely essential and should be fought for tooth and nail by the Government.

The right of Presidency and the revolving Presidency is vitally important, not just as some sort of symbolic glory for a small nation for six months but, in the context of all being equal irrespective of size. We had the opportunity during the last Presidency to steer the Community through a difficult period when some member states, in particular the UK, were concerned about German reunification. Because of our size and because we obviously had no axe to grind, our Presidency of the Community was vital for the development of the Union and the development of Germany. It is important that we maintain and fight for the right to maintain the rotating Presidency.

The proposal by the Taoiseach for the President of the Commission to be elected by the people of Europe was nothing short of daft. I am glad it has been dismissed by other leaders and I hope it will not be considered in the work of the reflection group or in any contribution made by the Tánaiste or by Government Ministers in the period ahead. The work of the Council and the question of weighted voting will be looked at during the Intergovernmental Conference. It is an area where we should be careful in deciding the way ahead, as far as small nations and our own national interest are concerned. There will have to be changes in the context of enlargement but we should tread carefully in relation to it.

During the Intergovernmental Conference and the six month Presidency generally, the whole question of common foreign and security policy will be debated and rightly so. It is now two years in operation. It has had its teething problems but it is important that it develops. With a growth in the development of the Union — if it is to be a Union — the common foreign and security policy should develop. In developing that, it is vitally important that we talk about security from the point of view of our position and the unique role we have, now being joined by Austria, Sweden and Finland, as neutral states. The Union, as it develops and enlarges, should not be seen as another military block. We do not want to go down that old-fashioned route of major military alliances. We want to see a new Union with a new emphasis and something major to contribute; and it is already contributing.

The Tánaiste referred to the question of human rights. The Union as it is at the moment is the largest contributor world-wide of foreign aid. It is important that the Union be seen by the world in a benign light, rather than as some threatening military bloc. We have a role to play as a small non-aligned nation in the military sense. We have developed a role since our membership of the UN and the participation of our troops in the Congo over thirty years ago. We have developed a particular expertise in peacekeeping. That expertise in peacekeeping will be necessary for the EU in its various operations around the world and we should make our troops available to the EU for peacekeeping or crisis management as we have for the UN Security Council. It is important to put a marker down that our participation should not be through the Western European Union or through the Partnership for Peace. I am concerned about the way the Tánaiste worded his reference to Partnership for Peace. We should not be involved in Partnership for Peace, NATO or any of its operations. Three of NATO's members — America, the UK and France — have nuclear weapons and we should not get involved in those alliances because it is not the way forward for Europe.

The rush towards a common defence policy could be counter effective. Rather than being a peace making and peace maintaining process, it could cause concern to the east. At a time when Russia is trying to come to grips with its new role in the world, there should be no threatening neighbour to the west of Russia. A major military alliance — if that is what is in the minds of some nations under common defence — would be a mistake. Our particular non-military neutrality should be emphasised in the reflection group.

Yesterday, the Minister of State, Deputy Mitchell, set out six or seven principles that will guide our discussions on this issue in the reflection group. He also said that if there was any change in our neutral stance it would go to the people for decision. I was upset, however, by the fact that in his list of principles to guide our discussions there was no emphasis on our existing position. It was said that in the event of any change we would put it to the people but I want to see our Government arguing for our existing position as a militarily neutral country as well as our willingness to co-operate.

Security goes further than the question of military alliances and the involvement of the Garda and Army; it also entails the security of our people from the threat of drugs and organised crime. The common foreign and security policy has a role to examine co-operation in those areas.

The Tánaiste also dealt with the question of economic and monetary union which, while it will not come under the Intergovernmental Conference, will come under the EU Presidency's work. We must restate our position that we do not want to be on a second track. When those decisions are made in 1997 or 1999 — probably in 1999 — our economy must be strong enough to allow us to choose whether to enter. Let us not lose sight of the need to control our public finances lest we lose the capacity to make that decision. Let us be the ones making the decision rather than those within the Union who want to have an inner core and a second division. We should be in a position to join the inner core.

On the issue of EU enlargement it is vitally important that our position on agriculture is maintained. The agricultural community and the Common Agricultural Policy must not become the plaything of those who will try to change the Union totally. One in three pounds of our farmers' income is directly related to the Common Agricultural Policy, so it is in our national interest that nothing should be done to damage that.

The role of the United Nations is important from our point of view and it is necessary to renew confidence in the organisation. I encourage other countries to pay their dues at this stage. Our role in support of UN Security Council decisions has been important for our own confidence as a nation as we developed from 1960 onwards. I pay tribute to our Army and Garda for their service to the UN, and especially to those who lost their lives during UN missions. I pay tribute to the role of our non-governmental organisations and the work they have done in Bosnia, Rwanda and South Africa — areas that we can go through in greater detail in the afternoon on ODA.

I welcome the idea of the new embassies and the Ireland House concept, which is important. I also welcome the idea of a special section on human rights, but it should not just be a special section. The primacy of human rights should be maintained, not just in Iveagh House but throughout the administration in every Department's dealings abroad.

A mistake was made during the negotiations on the renewal of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty in not having five year terms which would have been better. That was emphasised by the fact that as soon as it was over the Chinese tested another nuclear device and the French are now talking about testing further devices. They seem to have said: "Lets wait until we get the renewal out of the way and then we can continue on our merry way irrespective of what has happened." We should be setting major targets, not just for non-proliferation but for the elimination of nuclear weapons. That brings me to the question of other weapons. It is really scandalous that while we talk about the crisis in Rwanda, the French, the Belgians and others are sending weapons to those regions.

I welcome the announcement of the forthcoming White Paper and I look forward to its publication and the debate on foreign policy that will take place for months and years ahead. We have a proud record in world affairs. We have no colonial baggage and have played our part when asked to do so throughout the world, not only in a governmental sense but in a non-governmental way as well. Our emigrants have played a role in various governments and in the countries in which they have settled. We have a proud record and our religious are also doing good work abroad. Our independence is not in the sense of being neutral because we are an active member of the European Union. We should not be totally subsumed, however, and should keep our independence while at the same time fully participating in all the areas we have decided to join, European Union, the Council of Europe or the UN. Let us keep our proud record of independence as well as maintaining our total participation.

I express my good wishes to Mr. Dorr, the Secretary of the Department, who will be retiring in a few months time. Like Deputy Burke and you, I would like to thank him for his services to this country over many years in various posts of considerable responsibility in different parts of the world. He served for a relatively long period as Secretary of the Department when there were many substantial and significant developments, not least in the past 12 months. Mr. Dorr's contribution both at the European Union level and in terms of Anglo-Irish relations was very substantial indeed and a major contribution to the advances that have been made.

The Tánaiste's speech today is useful because of the large number of topics it covers. However, it is a little unsatisfactory that he lists many topics without expressing a firm opinion about them. A good example is the following:

The question of possible Irish participation in OSCE peacekeeping and humanitarian operations is one that requires consideration. Our current legislation only foresees such involvement under UN authority.

That is fair enough. I am not suggesting that we become involved in the morning but we should have a view about it. I cannot see why Ireland would not participate in OSCE peacekeeping and humanitarian operations. I do not know why it requires lengthy consideration. It appears to be self-evident that we should participate. Our obligation in that respect is no less than it is to support such activities under the auspices of the United Nations. If anything, our obligations are higher because of the European dimension relating to the OSCE.

The next paragraph states:

I have already made clear my view that we should examine whether participation in Partnership for Peace would be of benefit to Ireland.

My comment is that we should examine whether participation in Partnership for Peace would be of benefit to Europe and to the world as well as to Ireland. Forty-two countries have become involved — the most recent being Russia following the recent visit of President Clinton to Moscow — so how could Ireland conceivably wish to stay out? Why does it require examination and further consideration? If there are now 42 members we will shortly be possibly the only country in Europe that is not involved in the Partnership for Peace. The hand-wringing and heart-searching that goes on about these matters appears to be unnecessary. It is a sop thrown in different directions internally, perhaps, but we should face up to our international responsibilities and not act in a slightly childish way by saying that we must give consideration to these matters when it is self-evident where our duty and obligations lie.

With regard to Yugoslavia, the Tánaiste says that we support what the European Union is doing. Undoubtedly we do, but unfortunately it is not doing a great deal and neither is anybody else. Everybody is somewhat frightened of the situation there. In some vague way we hope that the problem will go away and that it is possible to appease people who are clearly in breach of international and human rights obligations. That thinking was widespread in Europe in the late 1930s. People thought, no doubt in good faith at the time, that it was appropriate policy. However, it was one for which a very high price was paid. How can one seriously believe that one can appease Serbia? Is it not the case that it is almost impossible to resolve the awful problems and suffering in the former Yugoslavia unless Serbian aggression is confronted? I am unhappy about the proposed arrangements for Bosnia which have been agreed to by the Bosnian Government, under duress because it has no choice. Anybody would have to be unhappy about a situation where half a country is being cut away to become, in effect, part of a greater Serbia. That is wrong. If the Serbs can get away with that in Bosnia are they not likely to try to get away with it elsewhere?

The Intergovernmental Conference will start before our Presidency and probably will not end until after it but our Presidency will play a major part. The decisions that will be made by the conference are of great importance in terms of institutional reform. That was debated quite fully with the Minister of State, Deputy Mitchell, last evening at a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs. It is not necessary to repeat what I said at that meeting other than to say that the place of the Commission and its make-up are of vital importance in the future. It cannot continue as it is. Changes must be made. However, in making changes the situation of small member states must be taken into account.

The Commission is the ultimate guarantee of the smaller countries. On the other hand, one must accept that there is a major democratic deficit within the Union. That is a dilemma. Giving greater powers to the European Parliament, for example, is theoretically fine and democratic. However, if we constitute about 1 per cent of the parliament, which is proportionately all we are entitled to, we will not have much say if the parliament becomes a dominant feature among the European institutions.

The Commission's position has been unique from the start. It has sought successfully to protect the position of smaller member states and it must continue to do that. One of the reasons the smaller member states have not been pushed out is the revolving Presidency. However difficult and daunting it might be for some of the smaller states, it should be maintained. We are facing an important Presidency but we can carry it out with considerable confidence. It is our fourth Presidency and even though it is the most important of them we enter it with a great deal more experience than in the past. Our previous Presidencies have been successful and I know of no reason why the forthcoming one should not be. It is worth noting that the least successful Presidencies of the Union have tended to be those of certain larger member states. There would be a real problem if the next enlargement were to encompass Malta and Cyprus, which are the longest waiting applicants for membership. Both are small countries with tiny economies. Can they join or can they be accepted as members on the same basis as existing member states? The question of the appointment of a Commissioner is a sensitive matter.

The population of Malta is slightly over 250,000 and the population of Germany is about 80 million, making Germany about 320 times larger in population terms and probably 700 to 900 times larger in economic terms. Germany is entitled to two Commissioners and Malta would be entitled to one. It seems a bit unreal and will not be easily solved. The issue should be debated and fully thought through because the Commission is the central and crucial institution in the European Union and much stronger and more significant than many members of the public throughout the Union believe it to be.

There was a discussion here last night with the Minister of State, Deputy Gay Mitchell, about the necessity for co-operation on fighting drugs. This is no less a problem here than it is in most other member states and perhaps it is worse than in many of them. The nature of what is now the most serious crime against society is almost always international. The drug problem seems to have an international context because drugs come from abroad into this country and into the European Union. Another important aspect of trying to fight the awful scourge of drugs is the effort to control the uses to which the proceeds of drugs are put.

Last week in Dublin there was an interesting conference on efforts to tackle and suppress fraud within the European Union. It was organised at the Irish end by Mr. Justice Carney and I attended part of it. The significance of that conference and the type of problem with which it is trying to deal is extremely important. It is every bit as important in trying to fight the drugs problem as seizures off the Cork coast and other physical seizures of drugs. The ability of the 15 member states of the Union to co-operate strongly with each other in opposing and preventing the wide scale money laundering within the European Union should be a priority in the Intergovernmental Conference discussions next year as every member state is seriously affected.

There are many matters of detail in the Estimates which I do not believe it appropriate to go into now. In general the Department of Foreign Affairs has given this country good service at reasonable cost. One of the figures that amazes me is the dining provision for official entertainment. It sometimes generates much comment in this country but the figure is minuscule and it is amazing that such value is got for so small a figure. Overall the costs in the Department are kept to a minimum given that most of the money has to be spent abroad in places with higher costs and higher inflation. The Department is to be congratulated on that and on the fact that they give value of money in what is one of Ireland's most vital interests.

We have from now until 1.30 p.m. for questions and answers and the Tánaiste will be with us for all that time. We must conclude at 1.30 p.m. because the joint committee has a meeting at 2 p.m. and we will go on to discuss the other part of the Estimate later. In the interests of allowing participation by as many Members of the committee as possible, I suggest that questions are succinct and I am sure the Tánaiste will deal with them as quickly as he can. Deputies O'Keeffe, Ferris, Shatter, Briscoe and Lenihan have indicated. We will ask the Tánaiste to intervene after each speaker but not necessarily as a direct response to me.

It might be interesting for the committee if the Tánaiste briefly outlined the items which make up the figure of £3.45 million for preparatory costs associated with the presidency. It would help to give us a view of the kind of work involved in the preparation. I have a brief comment which follows Deputy O'Malley's last remark. I note the reletively modest provision in the Department's Estimate for travel to EU and other States. The total provision is less than £3.7 million. I know the Tánaiste is anxious to get maximum value for money out of that and I am sure he will agree that the more one cuts that down, the more difficult the job becomes. I am sure the committee would be grateful to the Tánaiste if he could explain to the Minister for Finance the extreme problems that committees of this House, particularly this committee, have in getting travel budgets. I know the Minister for Finance is well disposed towards us but I am sure the Tánaiste's support would be of crucial importance in swinging the issue.

Some time ago the committee wanted further details on the Department's activities on cultural relations with other countries, that is, subheads G.1 and G.2. The committee would, without going into it in depth today, like a briefing note that would give us an overview of what is involved in those activities.

I have two questions for the Tánaiste. I endorse everything that has been said about the work of the Department of Foreign Affairs. I spent five years there and am well aware of the dedicated staff and its esprit de corps. it is only right and proper to take the opportunity to acknowledge that publicly.

Will the Tánaiste expand on his comments on Northern Ireland? Perhaps he could briefly chart the way forward for us. What does he see as the realistic possibilities for progress? I am a believer in dialogue and I am aware of the invitations issued to the Unionist parties. Can the Tánaiste indicate what responses have been received or the lack of them? If there is not to be a positive response at the moment from some or all such parties, are there possibilities for informal discussion with them?

It is necessary to maintain the momentum in every way we can and develop the peace process. I will not be happy until a political settlement is in place which is acceptable to both communities in Northern Ireland. Apart from the politicians and the civil servants, there is a role for everybody on the island in the development of that peace process. I emphasise the importance of people in the Republic visiting Northern Ireland. There has been a psychological border there for years and people have not been prepared to go. People should be prepared to breach that psychological border now, visit, holiday there and trade if possible. People should buy in Northern Ireland as they would in County Kerry or any part of the South.

I am interested to know how we, as a nation, can encourage our friends in Taiwan. It is important that we send a clear signal to the government and people of Taiwan that we regard them as our friends. I have long been interested in and a supporter of Taiwan. I have tabled Parliamentary Questions for many years about its situation. I visited there a few years ago and I had serious discussions with industrialists and commercial interests. I have a particular interest because of the existence of an industrial park in Cork where there has been hope of Taiwanese development for a number of years. I believe that it would assist and encourage that development if we made it clear that we support their situation.

I am aware of the position as regards mainland China and that we have recognised its government as the legitimate government of China. However, I do not accept that the government of mainland China is the legitimate government of Taiwan. It is in that context that I raised in the Dáil the question of UN membership for Taiwan. Taiwan with its population of 21 million is greater than over two-thirds of the membership of the United Nations. Economic development there has been considerable. After Japan, it has the second largest foreign reserves in the world at approximately $100 billion and it could swamp half of the world with its foreign reserves. Taiwan is the thirteenth largest trading nation in the world.

The case has been made that membership of the UN might ultimately interfere in some way with the process of reunification of mainland China and Taiwan. That did not arise in the case of East Germany and West Germany which were separately represented at the UN. It does not arise at present in the case of North Korea and South Korea. Again there is a desire for unification, but they are separately represented at the UN.

At Government level, we should send a signal to the government and people of Taiwan, despite the presence of mainland China with its population of 1 billion next door, that we recognise as far as we can its situation and that we are sympathetic to its efforts to be accepted as the legitimate government of Taiwan and its request to join the United Nations. As a committee we might have a role by inviting the representatives of the government of Taiwan to appear before the committee to present their case. I will make that proposal to the Chairman. As far as the Minister for Foreign Affairs is concerned, I would like an indication of a sympathetic reaction from the Government to the government of Taiwan.

I would like to deal with the remarks made by the Chairman and then I will deal with Deputy O'Keeffe's questions. The Presidency will, as most Members appreciate, be a major undertaking and I have confidence that we will carry out our responsibilities or task with confidence and pride on behalf of the people. As regards the provision of the £3.5 million, the largest element of that is £1.3 million which is being used to cover the major upgrading of our IT and communications facilities. Some £250,000 has been allocated for the provision of high volume photocopiers and other office equipment and £50,000 has been provided for the purchase of Presidency stationery. Some £600,000 has been provided for staffing requirements — additional temporary staff assignments and related costs. Some £720,000 is required for refurbishment and upgrading some of our key missions abroad in advance of the Presidency and that includes Brussels, New York, Washington and a number of other capitals.

Some £500,000 is required for additional Presidency-related travel, including additional transfers which are taking place this year. Members are probably aware that there are a substantial number of transfers in the diplomatic corp taking place this year. There are a growing number of additional meetings to be serviced in the build up to the Presidency. It will also be necessary to send larger than normal delegations to the United Nations, for example, and certain other meetings and conferences. Incidental expenses total £180,000.

As regards training in relation to preparation for the Presidency, additional communication costs, admissions and certain miscellaneous expenditure, the allocation totals £29,000. We are also including a provision of £150,000 to cover additional communications costs in headquarters.

I sympathise with the Chairman's remarks about the committee situation. I am in favour of the committee system and I have always been in favour of the establishment of this and the European Affairs Committee to assist parliamentarians in the work they must do. I will raise that with my colleague. I am not saying it is the responsibility of Minister for Finance — it is the Government's responsibility in the overall expenditure area. It is necessary that the committee has the resources to carry out its work.

As regard cultural relations, since 1988 the allocation has primarily been provided from national lottery surplus. In 1992 the allocation was reduced to £213,000 from its previous level of £400,000. In 1993 the allocation was maintained at the reduced 1992 level, while in 1994 it was raised from £213,000 to £250,000 and an additional £150,000 was provided in Exchequer funds. I believe the Chairman is more interested in what we are doing than the actual amounts of money. We have cultural agreements with 12 countries — Belgium, China, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, the Russian Federation and Spain. They are basically designed to encourage mutual co-operation to facilitate exchanges and contacts in the fields of the arts, science and education. We also do this in consultation with other Government Departments, including the Department of Education and the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. Obviously there are periodic meetings between the Departments to review the work which is ongoing.

I believe that the cultural relations committee gets great value from the small amounts of money available to it in assisting artists and performers and others in their travels abroad, which is basically bringing Irish culture to other locations. I have a breakdown of the category which I can circulate.

Deputy O'Keeffe asked about Northern Ireland. At times there is a tendency not to acknowledge or fully appreciate what has happened in the past number of years. I am not saying that in relation to this meeting but generally. I have noticed in recent months that when, for example, we overcame the discussions or inhibitions about the clarification issue which arose after the ceasefires, there was an immediate tendency for people to start to raise the next problem. I believe we must do this painstakingly day to day in a steadfast manner. Much has been achieved. Until we achieve what I have described as a political settlement, work does not finish. Indeed, work will probably never finish because of the events of the past 25 to 26 years, in particular. There will be a great deal of work to be done, certainly for the foreseeable future, in building up relationships between the communities, trust and confidence in political institutions and in the rebuilding of the Northern Ireland economy. I hope we will see the benefits of the Washington conference in the near future. The next step is to have a series of bilateral meetings between the parties and the Governments which, as I said in my introductory remarks, will lead to inclusive round table negotiations. The fact that the Northern Ireland Secretary of State met with the president of Sinn Féin in Washington is in itself significant. Minister Ancram met with him briefly last evening in Belfast. At all times we want to move on to the stage of having negotiations.

I do not accept criticism in relation to the Taoiseach's handling of invitations to the Unionist leadership. It was well known by previous Taoisigh that invitations were always there, issued privately and otherwise, for meetings and engagement. There is little point doing this in a glare of publicity. In fact, it could have a counter effect. The invitations are there and we use every opportunity to maintain contact. We had wide-ranging contact at the Washington conference with a range of people who would not normally be available and they are helpful in breaking down the barriers, mistrust, bitterness and hatred that exist and which have been cultivated over many years. It is a priority issue for the Government to maintain the momentum and not allow any impasse to develop.

With regard to Deputy O'Keeffe's question, my position in relation to Taiwan has not changed since the last Dáil question on the issue. We have, and will maintain, friendly relations with all the Chinese people, including the people of Taiwan. That has been cultivated in recent years by the many parliamentary delegations — composed of members of all parties — who have visited Taiwan. Taiwan has an important, dynamic and expanding economy with which Ireland is cultivating economic links. I want those links to develop because, in terms of its economy, Taiwan is an enormously powerful country. As I explained the Chinese Government is the one recognised by the UN and the majority of the international community. Neither China nor Taiwan itself, have seen Taiwan as a separate entity. Both see themselves as one country. I have no objection to your prerogative as to who is brought before this committee. The more people asked to appear before the committee the better. In this way the committee will receive the views of both the Chinese and the Taiwanese.

I join with previous speakers in paying tribute to the retiring Secretary of the Department of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Dorr, for his help and co-operation with all Members, particularly those involved with this committee and the Joint Committee on European Affairs. I also join in tributes to the Tánaiste for his efforts in the Northern Ireland peace process. It is accepted that the Tánaiste represents continuity, in a very important area, for the people of the island — and Irish people world-wide — who are looking to him, the Taoiseach, the Government and all of those involved in furthering this peace process at a steady pace but always with the ultimate goal in mind.

Other issues that were raised — dealt with yesterday by the Joint Committee on European Affairs — include the reflection group, problems and questions which have arisen from the comments of the president of the European Commission, Jacques Santer, about the complications and implications of enlargement for Ireland, particularly in the area of agriculture. The Minister of State commented yesterday that the Government is committed to ensuring that the agricultural community in Ireland receives proper support even during enlargement. The Minister also commented on the concept of Ireland's role in strengthening the Commission, retaining the existing structures and the rotating presidency. It is important that these issues are raised in the run-up to the Intergovernmental Conference which will deal with them and the subject of the White Paper, already dealt with by this committee.

The committee's document and the Tánaiste's White Paper should be dealt with soon by the Oireachtas. We have listened to the contributions of Deputy O'Malley and Deputy Burke which differ in so many ways on whether we want to be part of NATO or the Western European Union, the partnership for peace, etc. There are so many different views and variations on this subject that the sooner it is debated in its broader context in the Parliament, the better. As the Government and the Tánaiste have stated, it is appropriate that, if changes are to be made, the public will have the final say.

If the Tánaiste ever discusses the question of Taiwan with the Chinese Government — there are those of us who have experience dealing with the Taiwanese and know the tremendous economic benefit of having friendly relations with them — he might also raise the question of Tibet and the human rights issues involved. This is a subject which will come before many parliaments now and in the immediate future.

With regard to the Estimates, we have mentioned the cost of the preparation for the presidency. I am sure the Tánaiste will agree that these costs are an investment in the future. Some of the improvements in technology resulting from these costs will benefit the Department of Foreign Affairs and some of our missions. I also welcome the increase for UNRA, small though it is. I am aware of the tremendously important role played by UNRA in the provision of health, education and food distribution in Palestine, particularly with the ongoing peace initiatives in the Middle East.

The Members of the subcommittee on overseas development are very proud of the continuing increases in funding for overseas development. That will be discussed in detail with the Minister of State, Deputy Burton, this afternoon. With regard to UN contributions, with which Ireland is up to date, could the Tánaiste inform the committee if we are owed moneys for the services we provide? What is due to be paid to Ireland for our involvement with UN peacekeeping missions and other areas?

The Estimate is quite a detailed one with £76 million provided for international co-operation and £48 million in the administrative budget. Leaving aside what is often said for political purposes, the Department of Foreign Affairs reflects Ireland's important international role as a small, neutral nation with a major contribution to make towards peace and stability in the world at large, particularly through involvement with the UN.

I am very grateful for Deputy Ferris' opening remarks. He has touched on many issues which will be intensely debated from now until 1999. Many Members, particularly those involved with the Joint Committee on European Affairs, will participate in that debate on common agricultural policy and the budget. It will be a very difficult debate for the European Union. We have already seen that some of the contributor states are hardening their positions on a daily basis.

With regard to the cost of the presidency, if it is looked at in overall terms, we are beneficiaries from the European Union to a great extent. It is basically an investment in the future. We have to carry out our functions. We must have the necessary resources, equipment and personnel. In discussions at departmental and governmental level we will call on everyone to be part of the team to ensure the efficient running of the Presidency. We have the competence to do that.

On United Nations peacekeeping. I have raised the issue, with my counterparts in the United States and the Russian Federation, about the obligation on member states to pay their contributions. Ireland's policy is to ensure that we pay on time. Any politician who want national cololections and contributions knows it is always better for the organisation to get them early in the year. The United Nations is no different in that respect. I have raised the issue and had numerous discussions with the Secretary General regarding moneys owed to Ireland. Just as there is money owed to the United Nations on one side of the equation, there is money owed to us on the other. It was and is a fairly serious situation for us. I have had a number of discussions and the situation, as of 26 May, is that Ireland is owed £9.6 million in arrears by the UN. This figure comprises £8.6 million, down from £12 million last year, £900,000 for the force in Cyprus and £100,000 for miscellaneous transport costs, which will be paid shortly. The position is still not a very pleasant one, in that we are owed from £8.6 million to £9.6 million, but it is improving. There is a genuine commitment from the Secretary General to try to ensure that the situation improves.

I thank the Tánaiste for a very interesting address. There was nothing in his address with which I disagree, but I wish to tease out a couple of matters and raise perhaps three or four topics in question form to which he may respond.

I support the idea of the State participating in the OSCE peace-keeping and humanitarian operations. In this context, I agree with Deputy O'Malley that we should not hesitate to join the Partnership for Peace as it does not threaten our neutrality and is specifically set up to get over some of the difficulties other countries now associated with it would have in becoming part and parcel of NATO. The Tánaiste said both require consideration. What consideration? Is it not time that the Government forms a view that we participate in both these groupings? It is part of our ongoing commitment to involvement in peace-keeping operations and in taking action to try to reduce the level of conflict within different parts of the world, especially within Europe. At a time when Russia has joined the Partnership for Peace we should not be standing aside and I urge that we rapidly make the political decisions that need to be made and if necessary bring legislation before the Dáil so that the possibility of our involvement in peace-keeping forces allows us to be legally involved in forces other than those under the authority of the UN. In terms of time scale, what progress does the Tánaiste envisage making with both these issues during this year?

There is an advantage in our making decisions in these areas prior to our Presidency of the EU because each organisation has the potential to contribute to resolving problems within Europe and we could find ourselves in a difficult moral dilemma when we hold the Presidency, whereby we may be urging peace-keeping operations of a specific form. We may find ourselves in a position where we are urging others to do what we believe is right while saying that we cannot participate. This is a specific problem which must be addressed.

There was a reference to China. There has always been a conflict in this country in foreign policy areas dealing with issues based on what we see to be our economic self interest and trying to maintain our commitment to human rights. We see China as a huge market with great potential for this country. There has been an increase in trading relations between the two countries. However, there is ongoing concern at international level at the manner in which the Chinese Government is treating dissidents within the country, and at its continuous curtailments of individual rights and fundamental freedoms. This applies not simply in the context of Tibet but throughout China. Only within the last few days, in the context of the anniversary of the dreadful atrocity in Tiananmen Square, we saw, yet again, instances of the Chinese Government taking action to remove dissidents — those who disagree with the manner in which it deals with issues — from their homes, in full breach of human rights, and disappear them from their local communities, albeit probably temporarily, as happened on previous occasions. Will the Tánaiste advise what initiatives we can take at UN level or otherwise to get China to face up to the manner in which it is dealing with the basic political human rights of freedom of speech? It is an issue which all countries steer away from because of their economic desires to maintain and expand trading relations. We have a role to play in this area.

Some Members of the committee attended a conference in the last few days organised by the Portuguese Parliament to deal with the problems of East Timor. It is now almost 20 years since Indonesia invaded East Timor and there are human rights atrocities are occurring in that part of the world on a weekly basis. It is reported that over 200,000 people have died over the 20 years of Indonesian occupation. One of the principal leaders of the resistance in East Timor is incarcerated at present and there are ongoing difficulties. The wish of many of those within East Timor is to bring about self-determination. There is a dispute within different groupings as to whether they should remain part and parcel of Indonesia or whether they should have total independence. However, there is agreement that what is needed is a full and free referendum within East Timor to allow the East Timorese to determine their own position for the future. There is an urgent need to end Indonesia's illegal occupation based on terror and breach of human rights. Will the Tánaiste outline the further steps Ireland can take in dealing with that issue? I am aware from the feedback at this conference that some of the positions we have taken on the international stage with regard to East Timor are greatly appreciated by that country and by many of those opposed to the Indonesian administration. From what we saw at the conference, I suspect that at times Ireland has taken more of a leading role than Portugal and has occasionally pushed Portugal along when it has been somewhat reticent, based on stances previously taken.

There is growing concern internationally, not simply about the problems of the French or the Chinese still using nuclear weapons or nuclear weapon testing, but about the lack of control over nuclear weapons the components that go to create nuclear weapons as a result of their sale from some of the former states of the Soviet Union and of Russia's willingness to sell nuclear technology or materials which may allow other countries to develop a nuclear capacity. In this context the sale of nuclear materials to Iraq or Iran by former Soviet satellite states or by Russia must be addressed. What initiatives are we taking on the international stage to bring to an end or to seek to ensure the control of nuclear weapons in this area? This issue will be a problem for the future, indeed in the not too distant future, we will discover that a state which we believe does not have nuclear capacity has acquired it, leading to it posing a major threat in the region in which it operates.

The Tánaiste's speech did not refer to the Middle East peace process which we all welcome and is confronted with greater complexities and difficulties than ours. This country has developed, or has sought to develop, trading relations of a beneficial nature with Iran. Over the years there have been visits by Ministers for Foreign Affairs and Members of the Dáil and Seanad to that country. We have managed to develop reasonably good relationships with the Government of Iran which is something that many other countries have not managed. However, in our dealings with Iran, we served our economic interest and forgot our commitment to peace keeping or human rights. In addition, we avoided engaging in discussion about human rights within Iran itself and about the approach Iran has taken to the Middle East peace process. This approach has not merely been to reject it and call conferences to bring it to an end, but Iran has been and is continuing to fund the Hamas and Hezbollah organisations which are committed to destroying the peace process. There have been many deaths over the past 18 months as a result of the Hamas organisations operating within Israel, and there have been continuing problems with Hezbollah.

Is there an initiative we have taken or can take to encourage the Iranian Government to support, rather than oppose, the Middle East peace process? Have we raised this with them? Are there steps that can be taken to encourage them to at least be neutral and cease funding groups which are causing death and destruction and placing the process at risk?

I welcome the opening of additional embassies. It is right and proper that we do so, particularly in the countries to which the Tánaiste referred. The EU is involved specifically in aspects of the Middle East peace process and, indeed, in chairing various committees. It seems as we head into 1996 and the Presidency of the EU, we could find ourselves in an ominous position in that we do not have a resident ambassador in Israel. Our Greek ambassador is designate Ambassador to Israel also. Serious consideration should be given in 1996, prior to our Presidency, to having a resident ambassador in Israel as we have in Egypt. It would provide a balance to our representation but we may also find the EU playing a crucial role in some events we may not currently anticipate during that year. Perhaps the Tánaiste might respond to that.

The committee should thank the Department of Foreign Affairs for the excellent briefing documents it provides us with from time to time on different aspects of problems throughout the world. If on occasions the committee give it a hard time, I hope it understands we are trying to make a constructive contribution to the development of foreign policy, which is something the Dáil and Seanad was never able to do until we had a committee of this nature. I campaigned for such a committee for many years.

In the context of briefing documents, I was somewhat astonished at a document we received today and I would like an explanation of it. Perhaps the Tánaiste cannot respond now but one of his officials might come back to brief us. We have an important meeting this afternoon with a number of ambassadors from different Arab states. We are grateful to the Department for producing what is described as a background note on the Middle East peace process but it is an extraordinarily unbalanced note. It lacks background information which I had expected for Members of the committee who might not be as familiar with the problems in the Middle East.

I will give two brief examples and the Tánaiste might explain whether there is a problem within the Department in dealing with these areas. Under the heading "Current state of Israeli-Palestinian negeotiations" we are told sensitive issues are: border closures between Israel and the autonomous areas, Israel military withdrawal, Jewish settlements, etc. This briefing document that runs to some pages manages not to refer to the fact that since the peace process started over one hundred people have been killed within Israel and that this is part of the reason why borders are closed from time to time. It does not mention the existence of the Hamas organisation which I find absolutely extraordinary. It says absolutely nothing about Heizbollah and it does not mention who finances all these organisations.

I do not expect a briefing document to comprehensively deal with every single aspect of the Middle East but a document described as a briefing document should deal in an even-handed way with problems, if we want to encourage the peace process. We have a role to play in doing that and the Tánaiste has a comprehensive knowledge of this whole area. It is unfortunate that the committee should get a briefing document which seems to present a perspective which suggests any existing problem derives from obduracy on the Israeli side and does not give the full background. I am sure that was not intended.

I suspect some of the ambassadors we are to see would regard the current problems as much more complex than the background document suggests. Some of the ambassadors will probably accept there are problems on both sides. Both sides need to understand and iron out the difficulties.

I have not seen the documents to which Deputy Shatter referred but I obviously will look at it and be as objective as I can about any document produced. There is always a difficulty in providing briefing material. It is a little like providing the answers to questions. It is difficult in terms of the amount of information to be provided. I am currently reading two books on the Middle East and they probably provide only a fraction of what has been written about the Middle East or what will be written about the process. Obviously, we want to provide as much material as possible to brief Members for their meeting. As far as I am concerned, it is a very important meeting this afternoon. I had the pleasure of meeting the ambassadors and I raised questions about Hezbollah. I am sure they will have no difficulty in dealing with them.

On new embassies we are expanding the network this year in agreement with Government colleagues in the Department of Finance. It is necessary. We could have 15 further missions and we still would not be represented everywhere we want to be. We are greatly under-resourced in Latin America, for example. We are moving into ASEAN in a major way this year for the first time. That will still put enormous responsibility on the ambassador in residence in Kuala Lumpur in terms of the area he has to cover. In the Gulf region we are stretched, being in Riyadh and covering a number of the Gulf states. We hope to keep this constantly under review.

The Deputy makes a fair point on the importance of the EU and our Presidency in relation to Israel. I regret I did not mention in my opening remarks that I will go to the Middle East next week. I may have an opportunity on my return to come back to the committee to discuss my findings in terms of the peace process. It is a very important area of foreign policy for Ireland. We have played a constructive role in the Middle East peace process and we intend to continue that interest at European level. I hope during our Presidency we will be able to play an active part in the Middle East peace process.

In relation to Iran, I have raised with the Iranian Foreign Minister in two meetings with him the question of its attitude toward the Middle East peace process. The opportunity to raise this issue may arise again before the year is out. Its attitude to the peace process is an area of concern.

At the same time, the attitude of the EU, particularly in what is described as critical dialogue with Iran, is constructive from the point of view of the EU. Already we are seeing some rewards for that in terms of the lifting of the fatwah against Salman Rushdie, which has taken a long time, and the active participation of EU foreign ministers. The approach, in terms of critical dialogue, is correct. We also support the resolutions of the Human Rights Commission in relation to Iran.

On nuclear weapons, which was raised by Deputies Shatter and, indeed, referred to by Deputy Burke, we obviously want to see a complete ban. We hope that can be achieved in the next 12 months. I made my views known earlier in my views of what the French may be doing. It appears the establishment view is that the French would accept the recommendation of this Commission.

That is a retrograde step as, from our foreign policy point of view, we want a total ban on nuclear weapons and the decommissioning of existing weapons. We would have worries, as expressed by Deputy Shatter, in relation to the sales and availability of component parts and nuclear materials. A lot of work has to be done by states such as Ireland — we have a proud record thanks to the efforts of the former Minister Frank Aiken — at the United Nations.

I am grateful for Deputy Shatter's remarks in relation to East Timor. It is an issue we have persistently pursued at EU level. I do not accept that the Portuguese have not been attentive in trying to find a resolution. My European colleague, Mr. Barrossa, has been active at international level in trying to bring about a resolution to the difficulties in East Timor. I had the opportunity recently when the Indonesian ambassador was in Dublin to raise the matter with him and I made the Irish Government's views clear.

The issue of human rights in China is of concern to us. It is dealt with primarily at the Human Rights Commission in Geneva, in which we have taken an active part. In my discussions with the Chinese Government during a visit to China in the last year I raised the issue of human rights and put forward the position of the Irish Government and the EU and we will continue to do that. The question of individual rights and freedom in China is of concern to us and will be pursued.

With regard to the ESCE, the Partnership for Peace and the Western European Union, I reject the proposition by Deputy O'Malley that we can make decisions in these matters without public or parliamentary discussion. I recall that in 1992 when Ireland took observer status at the Western European Union there was a lot of critical comment. I commented on it in the Dáil primarily because there had been little, if any, discussion at parliamentary level. It is, of course, the Government's entitlement to make decisions. I supported that decision and I have attended meetings of the Western European Union.

I hope we will be allowed time for the consideration necessary for the preparation of the White Paper. There are great changes across Europe in terms of its security, relations with the central and eastern European countries and Russia's attitude to these developments. We want to assess the shifting sands, so to speak. The Partnership for Peace is a co-operative security initiative involving the European states which are not members of NATO, entering into bilateral agreements with NATO to co-operate in specific areas of mutual benefit. The best examples are training for UN peace-keeping, humanitarian operations, search and rescue, environmental protection and drugs traffic interdiction. It does not involve direct security and military operations it involves developing a capacity for co-operation and training in agreed areas.

It involves close co-operation with NATO and with other Partnership for Peace members for the purpose of an agreed co-operation programme. It does not involve membership of NATO or the assumption of any military commitments. Most other European states which are not a member of any military alliance — Austria, Finland, Sweden and Malta — have already joined.

It is also important to be aware of the origin of the Partnership for Peace. It was originally devised as a response to the desire of the central and east European countries for early membership of NATO. It became apparent in the course of the preparations there was much wider interest than in the central and east European countries and that Partnership for Peace membership included a number of categories of countries — prospective NATO members, such as Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic; countries that are not candidates for NATO membership, such as Russia, the Ukraine and other former Soviet states; and countries such as those I mentioned which remain outside military alliances.

It is a flexible instrument and requires critical examination. One cannot just decide to join without looking at the overall European security architecture. That is what we are trying to assess in a comprehensive way on behalf of the Government, the Oireachtas and the people. I hope, we can elucidate the matter and have public debate on the publication of the White Paper.

I compliment the Tánaiste on his even-handed approach to the Middle East. It is noticed and appreciated. Deputy Shatter has already dealt with the issue of the covert sale of nuclear technology to countries such as Iran and Iraq. In 1981 the French sold a nuclear reactor to Iraq and any country that receives anything of this nature, whose sworn policy is to destroy another nation, should be closely looked at.

There was no mention of the sale of chemical and biological weapons, which is a source of great concern to many nations. There are nations which would use these weapons in extremis. We could have a useful input on this issue.

I add my voice to those who have referred to the reluctance of the Department of Foreign Affairs to finance this committee, particularly when we have to go abroad. It is a little embarrassing that our chairman has to go cap in hand to explain the case for a visit. The Tánaiste complimented the committee on its work and the value of it. A little more sympathetic understanding by the Department to the needs of the committee would be appreciated. We are not going on junkets: we are going out to inform ourselves and to be informed so that we can make worthwhile contributions.

The question of finance has to be dealt with in the overall context of financing committees. It is easy for me to say I support what the committee wants but it is ultimately a matter of resources and we try to enhance those.

We have signed a new international treaty with regard to chemical weapons and we hope to ratify it in the near future. The sales of nuclear equipment and material are of grave concern to us and our partners and an issue the international community must address. We all want to work towards the comprehensive test ban and the ending of the storage of nuclear materials.

I wish to pay tribute to the retiring Secretary of the Department of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Noel Dorr. He has given tremendous service over the years and I can attest personally to that. I thank the Tánaiste and the officals of the Department who have been so helpful in running the committee since its foundation. The Minister and the officials took an active part in the work of the committee by attending meetings and having dialogue with us.

With regard to the peace process, I take it the Tánaiste and the Government are still committed to the three strands as the fundamental basis of approach to the talks that we hope will commence as soon as possible. At the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation we have already discussed Strand I, with regard to Northern Ireland, Strand II, North-South matters, and on Friday we will discuss Strand III, east-west matters. Those strands still stand as the encompassing framework for talks and I would like a reassurance from the Tánaiste on that point.

The talks are being held up for other reasons concerning decommissioning and associated matters, such as the release of prisoners, on which I place much importance, and the reform of policing in Northern Ireland. It is my view that the attitude of the British Government has been over-simplistic with regard to decommissioning. This process is far more complex than people so far have recognised. It is linked to the release of prisoners and the reform of policing. It means removing a large percentage of the arsenal of guns and munitions which exist in Northern Ireland, not just in the hands of the Provisional IRA but also the loyalist paramilitaries. They are also in licensed and unlicensed private hands throughout the entire area, the RUC and its reserve group and the British Government itself.

It is far more complex than simply nodding, winking and stating that one will decommission. If a decommissioning process starts, it must be fully verified across the entire area, fully tested and monitored. I have advocated for some time, and I feel strongly on the issue, that we should take a proactive attitude in getting a third country or outside agency to supervise the whole decommissioning and demilitarisation process.

The British Government has a difficulty in this regard, but I am sure the Irish Government as represented by the Tánaiste would not be unfavourable towards some such initiative. It is only in this way that we can get to grips with the matter. It should be left to an international third party to deal with it in all its complexity while the three-strand talks get underway. There is agreement that the complex issue of decommissioning weapons will not be settled overnight, but that process can proceed in tandem with the talks process. However, delaying the talks process because nothing is happening on the decommissioning front will result in a stalemate.

Other speakers, including Deputy Burke, mentioned the European Union, where it is going and how it will be structured in the future. This issue will form a large part of the Intergovernmental Conference next year. If we look at it from our point of view, and also from a European point of view, there is no doubt that the unique contribution of the Union towards the governance of Europe has been the Commission. It has been a unique way of getting on with things and of dealing with executive matters between countries which needed to be addressed in a European way.

These matters could not otherwise have been dealt with if an all country Commission, of the type which exists, had not been established with the capacity to take initiatives under the treaty. I hope it will continue to take such initiatives. The future of small nations such as Ireland depends on the continuation and strengthening of the Commission as the central agency of the European Union. The Council of Ministers is also very important for the obvious reason that each country, whether small or large, has a say and an input.

The difficulty with regard to the future institutional framework will be the Parliament. It has already grown into something of a monstrosity in terms of numbers and it is capable of growing into an even bigger monstrosity in the future with the accession of the additional countries. It does not have and will not be given any real power by members of Governments, other than the co-decision powers which already exist. What will happen? The inevitable enlargement of the Parliament will mean a diminution in the power and capacity of small countries to protect their case in the numerical proportional sense.

One aspect which should be investigated further is the role of national parliaments. The Tánaiste did not refer to it in his speech and I ask him to comment on this area. The strength of national parliaments is that they have a relationship with their peoples. The people vote for representatives in their respective constituencies. This is the case in most European countries where one is talking about polling of between 70 and 80 per cent for national parliaments.

National parliamentarians are in touch with the people and they can give a thrust to the future of Europe which the European Parliament cannot give. The public appreciate this aspect because they do not come out in great numbers for European elections and even when they come out, they are only concerned with local issues. They can be diverted by all types of nonsense at European election time, which does not concern Europe but which is the issue of the day. This stimulates people to come out and vote but not on European issues.

This has not just been the pattern in Ireland but in every other European country. For example, it happened in France during its referendum on the Maastricht Treaty, which only squeaked through. It is not good enough and it will add up to a very volatile element in the future, especially in terms of the envisaged larger Parliament. Although I do not expect the Tánaiste to have final views on this matter, I ask him to give his views on the future institutional framework of the European Parliament and the importance of balancing that with some institutional framework for the involvement of national Parliaments in the governance of the EU.

This is the real democratic deficit which exists in terms of national parliaments rather than the European Parliament in the context of the governance and administration of the EU. I ask the Tánaiste to give his views on this area, where I believe an initiative can be taken. The French appear strong on the question of national parliaments and other European countries are coming round to that point of view.

Conflicting prevention and peace-keeping is our real role in security and defence. We proved in the past that we can make a very valuable contribution in that area in terms of early warming, conflict prevention, crisis management, peacekeeping and humanitarian activity and protection. The regional organisation in Europe which is ideally geared to deal with this area is the Organisation for Security Co-Operation in Europe, OSCE. We have played a very active role in this organisation since the final Helsinki measure, which is over 20 years ago.

It has the big advantage that it is pan-European, both within the Union and outside it. Any trouble which occurs will probably come from the countries of the former Soviet Union. They are all included in the OSCE, as are the European Union countries. It would appear to be the ideal mechanism through which Ireland could participate in security matters, such as those I mentioned, under some type of regional UN mandate. Up to now we have only done this in the context of the United Nations.

I ask the Tánaiste to consider whether Ireland could act within the OSCE and participate in European operations of a similar type to those UN operations which we have carried out on a global basis up to now. An initiative in that respect might head off any pressures on us, either at home or abroad, to join organisations such as NATO or a military alliance of that type, which has been unacceptable in Irish thinking over the years.

I know the Partnership for Peace has a different dimension but, at the same time, we are a member of an organisation — the OSCE — that, as has been accepted by the public for 20 years, is doing a job in Europe and neighbouring countries which appeals to our concept of security matters and of defence matters as they relate to security. I would like the Tánaiste's views on that because he stated that it requires consideration. I would like to have a more positive response from him because it appears to be one way in which we could fulfil our obligations in this respect without being tainted by or involved in any military alliance.

I am sure that the Tánaiste is aware that not every Member of the committee agrees with Deputy Lenihan's view of the European Parliament, particularly since he did not refer to political groups. The Tánaiste knows that some of the parties in the Oireachtas have had quite comfortable relations, over a long time, with political groups in the European Parliament. Others have, perhaps, had a less happy history and have not yet found a home where they feel they can respectably stay but I am sure that is an aspect of the issue that the Tánaiste will address.

I thank the Chairman for that chalice. As Minister in charge of our diplomatic relations, I will stay above that internecine strife.

How very disappointing.

Do not tempt me. I will try to catch up with that tour de forceby Deputy Lenihan on many important subjects. The peace process is firmly rooted in the three strand process — that is the intention — and in the Downing Street Declaration and the Framework Document. That is, as I said earlier, the priority of Government, as it was for the previous Government and Governments prior to that. I see it as remaining one of the two major tasks confronting Government — the peace process in Northern Ireland and dealing with unemployment here, providing jobs and building up the economy. I reassure the Deputy on that front.

The question of the agenda for negotiations and discussions is complex, with many tracks which may have to be dealt with simultaneously. It is unwise to single out any issue as being the only one which must be confronted and dealt with immediately, decommissioning of arms or any other area. There are many issues — decommissioning, the release of prisoners and policing — most of which we have had some opportunity of discussing at the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation. The Government — and I would like to think at this stage all the parties — know their responsibilities and what has to be done. It is always worth stressing that there must be decommissioning of arms in both communities as the problem will not be solved otherwise.

There are other aspects of security in Northern Ireland. I have said many times that when one reduces the security threat, which the ceasefire and the decommissioning of arms will ultimately achieve, you then reduce the requirement for a security presence. We have been fortunate in this State in the development of our police structure and an unarmed police force. We are unique and are proud of that, in terms of our European partners' situation. They have been less fortunate in Northern Ireland but I hope that we can make progress. Deputy Lenihan will probably recall that I mentioned the possibility of a third party country or organisation outside these islands. If, tomorrow morning, we felt the time was right — I cannot speak for the British Government — and there was a solution to the question of decommissioning, I do not think there would be any hesitation in bringing in a third party or third country at the right time; but it is an issue with which we must deal.

My views on the importance of the European Commission are well known. We obviously have our priorities for our input to the debate and the negotiations that take place, as all national Governments and countries will have. We have been well served by the European institutions and by the institutional balance between the Commission, the Council of Ministers and the Parliament and we want to maintain that balance. The European Parliament is an important institution and is one which we, during our Presidency, will be reminded of if we do not appreciate the importance of the co-decision function of the Parliament. It will be important for the Irish Government at ministerial level to keep the Parliament informed. That is an obligation and a duty.

It is regrettable that we do not have a larger turnout for European elections. It is something that the political parties should look at and perhaps ensure that European elections take place in conjunction with, for example, local elections to ensure a turnout that reflects the importance of Europe for Ireland. I am also aware of the importance of national Parliaments. There is a danger at present that national Parliaments are adrift in relation to European Union thinking and functioning. In that respect, we have one idea which we are pursuing — that there would be an opportunity for commissioners to come and address the foreign relations committees of the various Parliaments; the Irish Commissioner would not address the Irish committee, another commissioner from a different country would address it on a regular basis on the issues before the European Parliament. That is one idea that we sould look at. We also spend a lot of time and effort — previous Governments have also done so — in informing the public. The organisations in this country — the Council for the European Movement and the international affairs organisations — have done good work in recent years in highlighting to the Irish people, in particular through schools and the education system, the importance of Europe.

We all get frustrated at times with the bureaucracy of Europe and the difficulty in making decisions but we should reflect at times — perhaps I had an opportunity because of being in Messina last week to do some reflection — on how Europe has succeeded since its formation, when the founding fathers had the vision to ensure that there would be no further conflicts in Europe and that we would address economic stability and progress on a European level. That is something for which we should be grateful. We should all participate and play our roles. In that respect, the Irish people are firmly committed to European development. There were fears, through the years, that there would be a loss of sovereignty and cultural identity but we have strengthened our cultural interests in this country and our cultural expression. In that respect, there is strength in diversity within the European family.

In relation to the security architecture and the OSCE, the Deputy will be aware that we are a founding member of the OSCE and we have been active in support and participation. We have supported the development of a central role for the OSCE in pan-European security arrangements: that is important. We do not expect the OSCE to fulfil that role alone and we see security relations in Europe being increasingly managed through mutually reinforcing co-operation between the various organisations. There is a developing tendency towards this and it may well be part of the debate at the UN in relation to regional organisations. The demands, as I said in my opening remarks, on the United Nations at the present time are horrendous in terms of the number of missions and the number of calls on the UN and its stretched resources and it may well be that regional organisations would be better geared to undertake the responsibilities. I had the opportunity of having detailed discussions with the Swiss Foreign Minister, who was in Dublin last week and who will be present at the OSCE next year. I hope to continue having discussions with him in relation to the role that he will be playing and the role that we will be playing during our Presidency in the latter half of 1996.

I join my colleagues in thanking and paying tribute to the Secretary of the Department and his staff for the wonderful way they have served the Members of this committee since its inauguration. The Tánaiste will recollect that, on the last occasion this committee sat to discuss the Estimates for the Department of Foreign Affairs, the issue relating to the possible appointment of an ambassador to Cuba was raised.

We talked about the possibility of either a residential or a non-residential ambassador being appointed. In the intervening period there has been quite an amount of discussion on this Committee regarding the United States economic blockade and embargo on Cuba.

We have heard from representatives of the Cuban solidarity committee and the United States embassy. The Cuban Ambassador to the United Kingdom, Maria Flores, also attended committee meetings to discuss the crisis arising from the United States blockade. After quite an amount of deliberation and debate the Members of this committee unanimously adopted a resolution recommending that our Government should support the resolution at the General Assembly of the United Nations calling for the lifting of the United States economic embargo.

Unfortunately at the time our Government decided to ignore the recommendation from this committee and abstained on the vote. Members of this committee were dismayed by the Government's role. Has there been any change in attitude by the Department of Foreign Affairs? I firmly believe that this committee is still of the same opinion that the embargo should be lifted. Obviously people on the committee have different views on Cuba. Some people admire the country very much while other Members might not admire it to the same extent. However, there is a recognition that Cuba has the right to assert its independence as a sovereign state and to follow its own course without big brother in the United States leaning on it. What is the current position of the Department of Foreign Affairs on this matter?

With reference to Deputy O'Malley's comments — and it is unfortunate that he is not with us at the moment — I have said before that the Progressive Democrats will not be happy until they see panzer tanks rolling down West-moreland Street. There is a danger in regard to this Partnership for Peace. The number of states who are members of the Partnership for Peace and who have a commitment to the use of nuclear weapons is a matter for concern. My understanding is that the Partnership for Peace is in favour of a nuclear deterrent as part of its security policy but this is completely at variance with our traditional policy.

To recognise the group in power in Taiwan as the legitimate government of China would be very dangerous. The reality is that this country recognised the government of the People's Republic of China as the legitimate government of the people China and if we were to recognise the people who control Taiwan as a legitimate government it would create a disastrous precedent. Where would it end? Next year we could possibly be taking about recognising the group that is in power in the Turkish-occupied area of Cyprus.

I concur with the comments on East Timor by my colleague, Deputy Shatter. I congratulate the Tánaiste and the Department of Foreign Affairs on its strong stance on this issue.

I have been a Member of this committee since it was established and I am very pleased with the type of briefing documents we receive. On many occasions the issues we discuss are very complex and it is impossible to cover every aspect in a briefing document. I am sure we could find areas that we would not be pleased with in any briefing document, but overall the balance has been superb. I feel that Deputy Shatter has been oversensitive on this particular one.

The Partnership for Peace has no defence capacity and no military function. In that respect it does not take a position — as far as I am concerned, unless the Deputy shows me otherwise — and has not expressed views in relation to the acceptability of nuclear weapons as a deterrent. Because of that, the European neutrals — Austria, Finland and Sweden — have been able to join. I am sure they would not have joined if the Partnership for Peace had a military function or capacity, or had such views on the use of nuclear weapons.

I am grateful for the Deputy's remarks in relation to East Timor which is an area of interest to the committee and to the NGO here in Dublin. We will pursue that to the best of our ability.

There is absolutely no objection, in principle, to Ireland's setting up diplomatic relations with Cuba. It is a question of resources and their allocation. I will give the Deputy some background on the resolution, passed at the 49th General Assembly last year, calling for an end to the US embargo on political, economic and commercial relations between the United States and Cuba. There is a review of the issue at this year's session. Last year's vote took place against the background of the opening of bilateral discussions between the US and Cuba. In considering its position on that occasion the Government was anxious to encourage that dialogue and to allow time for it to develop, as we made clear at the time. The fact that we abstained did not mean that we supported the embargo and that was made very clear in our contribution. In fact, we agreed with the call in the resolution on all states to refrain from promulgating and applying laws of the kind adopted by the US.

Before the next General Assembly in the autumn, I hope the conditions can be created for lifting the embargo and, hopefully, the long overdue normalisation of relations between the United States and Cuba can be encouraged. Had we voted otherwise last year rather than abstain, perhaps we would have no leverage left in the present situation. In our own discussions we will certainly do everything to encourage and facilitate the long overdue lifting of the embargo.

In his statement the Tánaiste made reference to our role as peacekeepers with the United Nations and how we are going to continue with that role. I am expressing a personal point of view in asking whether he considers it is time we also got involved in peace enforcement. Our Defence Forces comprise in excess of 10,000 people and if we are not going to get involved in any form of armed conflict it begs the question whether we need an Army. We might as well have 10,000 additional gardaí as have an Army which has no intention of being involved in armed conflict. We need considerably increased numbers of peacekeepers on our own streets. Why not be realistic and use the Army as an auxiliary force for the Garda Síochána?

Alternatively we could face up to our moral obligations in common with other countries in the civilised world and let our armed forces be used for peace enforcing activities. We may feel that the lives of American, French, British, Ukrainian or Bangladeshi soldiers are less valuable than our own, but they likewise think that theirs are more valuable than ours. I am raising the point that we are not facing up to our responsibilities as we should do.

Second, with regard to enlargement of the European Union, I can understand the Tánaiste's difficulty in drawing up a White Paper because of the constantly changing scenario. Perhaps the Tánaiste would give his assessment of the sequence of events with regard to the additional members who have already applied or who are in the process of applying. It was pointed out in a document before the committee some time ago that countries such as Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic and Slovakia would not be joining for another five years or more. However, it appears now that they will join within two or three years.

I would also like to hear about the situation regarding Cyprus, Malta and Turkey, whose application is probably the most controversial. I will not even ask the Tánaiste to deal with countries such as Romania and Bulgaria whose membership, although they attended the last European Council, must be delayed for some time. However, the applications of the first four countries I mentioned in addition to those of Cyprus, Malta and Turkey have been on the back boiler for some time. I wish to hear the Tánaiste's opinion on their applications.

The third matter I wish to raise is one which I have often raised with the Tánaiste during Question Time but to which I have never received a satisfactory answer. Why are people other than those engaged in the diplomatic corps not appointed as ambassadors, diplomats and envoys? I know, the Tánaiste can feel the knives in his back — I feel them in mine. I consider it the most logical thing in the world but obviously the Tánaiste does not. I do not have a Kerryman's logic anyway.

If you do not, what good is it to sit over there?

I do not live in the "cute hoor" mentality strata. However, why can successful businessmen and professional people——

And women, for instance.

Business people. Why can they not be included in the diplomatic corps? I have watched with considerable envy the success of the New Zealand diplomatic corps. It is a country similar to ours and uses its diplomatic corps primarily as lobbyists for business reasons. I can understand that there might be resistance in Iveagh House to the goodies being touched. However, it is surely out first duty to employ the best people. Please do not encourage the Chairman to rule me out of order. I understand people not wanting to have the goodies taken away from them. However, it is time we adopted a mature attitude to an important job to get the best possible result for the country. I am not satisfied that this is the case at present.

Finally, I wish to raise a rather parochial point although it is related to foreign affairs — the unique Irish connection with Newfoundland in Canada. The Tánaiste in his original replies to my questions was dismissive of the possibility of appointing an envoy to that area, despite the unique relationship or connection between it and Ireland. However, recently he has been more forthcoming and given me hope.

Is the Deputy eligible under his own criteria?

If the price is right and if I can come home for the six months of their horrible winter.

I ask the Tánaiste to appoint a permanent envoy to ensure that a unique link — the only such link we have with any other part of the world — is maintained. That link is being diluted with every day that passes. There is a similar link between the Welsh people and the people who emigrated to the Patagonia desert area of southern Argentina several hundred years ago. The British Foreign Office goes to considerable lengths to sustain that link while we do nothing about out link with Newfoundland. I hope I will receive a positive reply from the Tánaiste.

Also bearing in mind the Irish in Argentina.

I note from the business news this morning that Latin America appears to be the destiny for rather successful Kerry agri-business. We are weak in Latin America and it is an enormous task for Mr. Davenport to represent us there. I wish to strengthen that representation as soon as resources permit. It will be an influential geographical area in world trade and politics and I would like to strengthen our embassy structure there.

With regard to Newfoundland, I will investigate the possibility of appointing an honorary consul in Newfoundland and I will report to the Deputy in a short period of time.

That is what the Tánaiste said in his reply.

This time I meant it. As a former Taoiseach would say: "This is a solemn commitment." Obviously one must find a suitable honorary consul — somebody who would undertake the responsibilities on behalf of Ireland.

With regard to enlargement, no negotiations can start until after the Intergovernmental Conference, which most likely will not conclude until sometime in 1997. We have established various relationships with central and eastern European countries. There is also the question — and it was raised earlier today — of Malta, Cyprus and Turkey. The Deputy is probably aware that in the autumn the European Parliament will discuss the customs union with Turkey. That will be a difficult debate for the parliament during which many differing views will be expressed. One can reflect on or, perhaps, express views about the future of Turkey within the European family of nations. There are concerns about human rights in Turkey and about its internal difficulties with ethnic groups. Turkey is at a crossroads in the context of looking east and looking west by virtue of its location and its history.

I believe we will have active negotiations with the leading central and eastern European countries in a matter of years. However, I still think we are talking about the longer timeframe. I do not see it taking place within two years. Negotiations will take a considerable amount of time. In discussions with representatives of various governments in central and eastern Europe it appears that they have a dual interest in relation to Europe. One is governed by security considerations while the other is governed by economic considerations. It would not surprise me if their security considerations perhaps outweigh their economic considerations at times. Given the break-up of the Soviet bloc and the ending of the Cold War, I believe — and this comes across in discussions and conversations with representatives of those countries — that they want to ensure that there is no going back and that their emerging democracies are solidified and guaranteed for the future in terms of their borders and their internal democratic systems.

At present, a number of studies are being carried out by the Commission on the effect of their membership on, for example, agriculture; on the suitability of the central and eastern European countries vis-�-vis the internal market; and on where they are in terms of their own economic development vis-�-visthe requirements of the internal market. We will have the benefit of those studies. The Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry is co-funding a study by a group of economists on the implications of enlargement for Ireland and we are co-operating with the Department in that respect. We have to look at all the implications. Another question warranting long debate and discussion is how one manages or governs Europe when there are more than 23 or 24 countries. It is easy to become frustrated with the effectiveness and coherence of the existing management of Europe.

There is also a crucial issue in relation to Malta and Cyprus. How does one integrate Malta and Cyprus into the European Union without some rebalancing of the Commission or the institutions? It is important that Ireland has a Commissioner. However, if there are 24 or 25 states in the European Union and larger states have two Commissioners and smaller states have one Commissioner, there will not be jobs for all the Commissioners. We would want to be careful not to dilute the portfolio of Commissioners to such an extent that they become unimportant.

I am not advocating that Cyprus, Malta or Turkey become members. I was just wondering about their applications. There are humanitarian problems particularly in Turkey. I visited Poland and Hungary while a member of the Council of Europe. These countries as well as the Czech and Slovak Republics give one the impression they expect to be members within a number of years.

They want to be but, as we know from our negotiations which took many years, there is a process of opinion from the Commission and negotiation on many difficult issues which takes a considerable period of time. On the question of enlargement, there is also the maintenance of the relationship between Europe and the Mediterranean countries and Mediterranean region which the committee will have an opportunity of discussing this afternoon with the ambassadors. There is also the transatlantic relationship and the Europe and ASEAN relationship which we hope to develop next year and bring to a new footing in the context of our presidency.

Peace-keeping and peace enforcement was also mentioned. We must have respect for the role played by our Defence Forces and the Garda in United Nations missions. Many people have lost their lives in service of this country and the United Nations and I pay tribute to them. We have seen for example in Yugoslavia, that peace-keeping is a risky business. Our troops have suffered loss of life on many missions. The Belgian Congo was the first UN mission that impacted on me. We have seen more recently in UNIFIL that they are working under difficult conditions.

I will not proffer Government policy on the Defence Forces. It is particularly the brief of the Minister for Defence. However, we have been well served and have served well in the United Nations in terms of our commitment. More than 41,000 Irish troops have served in the various missions over the years and there will be a role in the future. Obviously there is a major review taking place on the future role of the Defence Forces and that is a matter for the Minister for Defence. We have played an important role in peace-keeping. I do not know if we want to move on to peacemaking. We saw the situation in Somalia. It was a difficult mission for the United Nations. The UN has a function and that function is as peacekeepers when they are invited to keep the peace.

I asked a question about the make-up of the diplomatic corps.

I can give the Deputy two answers to that question. I asked a question in the Dáil about this many years ago. I understand the view Deputy Deasy, is proffering on the desirability of having non-diplomats representing Ireland in the diplomatic corps. If we had much larger foreign resident representation, it might be something we could consider easily. At present, it would be totally contrary to the interests of our diplomatic service if we were to attempt to bring in non-professional diplomats. I have come to that view having looked at the organisation.

We had a huge influx of Third Secretaries in the 1970s when the Department of Foreign Affairs was expanding. It is important for morale within the Department, in terms of career opportunities and the hours these people work, that they are entitled to go to the top of their careers. I mean that sincerely. Not many people would either believe or understand the hours put in by people working in the Department of Foreign Affairs because of its nature and the nature of the meetings and negotiations in which we are involved. If one wants to make contact with embassies in Australia, the United States or elsewhere, it sometimes requires telephone calls through the night. In that respect, I will not bring forward any proposals to appoint non-diplomats to foreign missions.

I second that.

Thank you, Tánaiste. We have had a comprehensive discussion of the Estimate. I endorse everything Members of the committee have said about Mr. Dorr. I do not intend to go on about it for fear of embarrassing him. He and I have been involved with one another over many years in different capacities and I have always found it to be rewarding experience.

The committee will agree that the Tánaiste took an open-minded approach to the issues we have been discussing and particularly the preparation of the White Paper. This has enormously improved the scope of debate here and I hope we will see some results from it. It worries me that when we debate neutrality we are asked would we have to get involved if there was an incident in the Aegean? It is as if we should worry more about Turkey attacking Greece than the Turks doing things we do not like to the Kurds. It seems to reflect a rather curious order of priorities as to when we are obliged to intervene on behalf of other people.

A representative of another member state of the European Union remarked to me last night that the only conceivable circumstance — if conceivable is even the word — in which Ireland might be attacked would be if the United States decided to invade the United Kingdom. In such a situation, we would find out something his country found out in 1939. A Dutch man observed to me some years ago that neutrality is fine as long as other people allow it to work. There are some issues which still need to be clarified in the course of our debate.

I do not know what Deputy Bree had in mind when he spoke about the group that controls Taiwan and it is an issue to which I think the committee will wish to return. I am not sure if Deputy Bree shares my fascination with the People's Republic of China. It is a country that has fascinated me for 30 years. As things stand today, the electoral system and process in place for the formation of a Government in Taiwan is far closer to ours than the one in the People's Republic of China. The People's Republic of China has made enormous strides and deserves a great deal of support for their efforts to modernise. However, that does not exclude other considerations.

I thank the Tánaiste for his openness in responding to questions today and since the new committee was formed. We have always had a ready and courteous response from him. I am happy that we can see some of the concerns of the committee reflected in action he undertakes. We may be flattering ourselves if we think we have a great deal of influence and the Tánaiste is not a man who eschews flattery of other people where that is useful. I thank him for his courtesy and consideration. We look forward to further discussions on the important issues that still lie ahead.

Thank you, chairman. May I, on my behalf and on behalf of the Secretary, Mr. Dorr, express our thanks to the committee for the remarks made? There will be another occasion when we will be able to repeat those remarks. I thank the Chairman for his remarks. If the United States's mission, which you just mentioned, ever takes place and if the radar fails when crossing the Atlantic, they will know they have arrived in Ireland when they see the word, Eire, in great stone lettering which has been there since 1939 on the Great Blasket Island.

The Select Committee is adjourned until 3 p.m. when we will discuss Vote 39.

Sitting suspended at 1.35 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.
Vote 39 — International Co-operation (Revised Estimate).

I welcome the Minister of State and invite her to introduce the Vote for International Co-operation. The Tánaiste referred briefly to it his morning but said the Minister of State wished to give a more detailed presentation.

This is my first time introducing the Estimates for the development co-operation subheads of the Vote for International Co-operation. I am happy to appear before the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs and to participate in its discussions. I am especially happy to be here at a time of big increases in Government spending of official development assistance. This year, as in 1993 and 1994, it has been possible to make substantial extra funding available for the developing countries and I am sure there will be widespread support in the committee for this trend.

We are gradually making our way up the table of donors to developing countries. For several years Ireland was at the bottom of the OECD league table and our performance was the subject of criticism both at home and abroad. Last year we were third from bottom of the OECD list and this year we will approach the OECD average. The aim is to put our performance on a par with that of our partners in the European Union and to make steady progress towards the UN target of spending 0.7 per cent of GNP on official development assistance.

Subheads C to G of the Vote for International Co-operation comprise the bulk of Government expenditure on ODA. These subheads amount to just over £66 million and when contributions to the EU development budget, the World Bank and ODA spending under other Departments' Votes are added, total Government expenditure on ODA this year will amount to £89 million.

Before referring to individual subheads I will make one important point. The increases in ODA mean the budget allocated for this purpose is now substantial. I attach the highest priority to ensuring all the money voted for ODA is well spent and fully accounted for. The increased funding places new responsibilities on me and my Department and we will respond to the challenge. If the Irish people support more assistance for the Third World — I believe they do — then it is incumbent on us to ensure that the highest standards of accountability are maintained. The OECD carried out one of its regular reviews of the Irish aid programme last autumn and was satisfied with what it found. However, that does not mean we should rest on our laurels. We must continue to ensure that only worthwhile projects are undertaken, that they bring real benefits to the recipients and that all spending is monitored and accounted for.

This applies to the aid programme, but it also applies to those organisations with whom we work. We are now channelling substantial sums of public money through non-governmental organisations, such as Concern, Goal and Trócaire, and through international agencies such as UNICEF, the World Bank and the European Union. I intend to insist on the highest standards of accountability in all our partner organisations, whichever category they fall into.

Subhead C, the grant-in-aid for bilateral aid, is the largest item in the Vote. At £39.2 million, it registers an increase of 59 per cent over 1994. The bilateral aid programme is the principal channel through which long term assistance to developing countries is disbursed. The bulk of it, almost £20 million, will go to the six priority countries for Irish aid. The long established ones are Lesotho, Zambia, Sudan and Tanzania and there are two new ones, Ethiopia and Uganda. A seventh priority country, Mozambique, will be added this year.

As well as carrying out intensive activity in priority countries, increased funding means that we can fund development projects in countries such as South Africa and Zimbabwe, both of which will see big increases this year. We are also assisting the Palestinian territories, Cambodia and Vietnam. This year, for the first time, we are making provision for rehabilitation assistance, that is, aid which helps countries to recover from wars and disasters in the stage before long term development comes into action. Countries scheduled to receive rehabilitation assistance this year include Mozambique, Rwanda, Somalia and the former Yugoslavia.

One of the items covered under subhead C is the fund for co-financing aid projects with NGOs. This fund has been increased by 7 per cent and is used to give one-off grants, usually of a modest size, to missionary orders and NGOs for projects such as building additional school classrooms and community centres, drilling wells or equipping clinics. If there are savings elsewhere in the programme by the end of the year, I would like to see this fund topped up as the demand invariably exceeds the money available and the causes are worthwhile.

Subhead D provides for the increase of 21 per cent in the budget of APSO, the Agency for Personal Service Overseas. This is in line with the target of substantially increasing the number of volunteers working in developing countries. The challenge will be to ensure that the quality of APSO's placements is maintained as the numbers increase and to fill real gaps in the receiving country. The ultimate goal is to develop local capacity in such a way that people in developing countries can meet their needs from their own communities.

The amount allocated to subhead E for emergency humanitarian assistance is £5 million, a figure which takes account of the fact that there is no letup in the number of disasters, natural and manmade, today. The allocation last year was £4 million, although additional funding had to be found for emergency humanitarian assistance in 1994 because of the Rwandan crisis. This accounts for the high outturn last year of £5.8 million.

Subhead F is mainly taken up with our fixed contribution to the European Development Fund, which amounts to £7.8 million. Ireland has indicated a willingness to contribute more to the next round of the Lomé Agreement because of the considerable benefits which developing countries get from that agreement. As Members of the committee know; there is not yet agreement among EU member states on the level of Lomé funding.

As we approach Ireland's EU Presidency, it is worth mentioning the importance of the European Union in the field of development. The EU is now the world's biggest donor and it is vital that its efforts be well focused and its resources properly utilised. I intend to seek ways of improving the EU's delivery of aid both in the run-up to our Presidency and during it. I hope to organise an initiative this autumn in the area of food aid and food security which remain major areas of concern for the developing world and where the EU plays a major role alongside the United States. I also hope to highlight the food security issue during our Presidency as well as the issue of Africa generally which I feel is not getting as much attention as it should.

Our voluntary contributions to the United Nations development agencies are raised from £4.5 million last year to £5.5 million under subhead G this year. I am aware that there is unease at times about high administrative costs in some of the UN agencies and a lack of proper accountability. Nevertheless, agencies such as UNICEF, the UN High Commission for Refugees and the United Nations Development Programme are vital players in the international development scene. It is intended to announce a number of initiatives in the White Paper on foreign policy, the aim of which will be to increase our profile in these UN agencies and thereby seek to make them more effective and accountable.

There is a large increase in subhead H, funding for the refugee agency, reflecting the improvements made in the agency following last year's review and increased staffing. The plight of refugees is an issue that concerns me in both my areas of responsibility, justice and development co-operation. There are three elements to our approach. Through the refugee Bill, it is intended to improve arrangements for dealing with asylum seekers in this country; by strengthening the capacity of the refugee agency, it is hoped that the welfare of those refugees admitted here under Government decisions will be improved; and we will play our part on the international scene by supporting the UN High Commission for Refugees in its humanitarian work on behalf of refugees and displaced persons world-wide.

Subhead I refers to aid to eastern Europe which, at £180,000, is almost the same as last year's allocation.

These are the chief elements which make up this year's programme of official development assistance. I will be happy to elaborate on individual aspects which may be of interest to Members of the committee and to answer questions.

I thank the committee and the Sub-Committee on Overseas Development Assistance for their work. I have had enormous assistance from the dedicated and competent staff of the Department of Foreign Affairs and the development co-operation division. I also pay tribute to the numerous Irish development workers, missionaries and NGOs who have done so much to enhance our reputation abroad. As I said before, a striking feature at international fora at present is the widespread appreciation of Ireland's contribution in this area, both in monetary terms and in terms of the efforts of individual Irish people.

I thank the Minister for her brief, but comprehensive outline of the work being undertaken in her area of responsibility, international co-operation. It is heartening to see the efforts being made on behalf of the people to increase the level of financial commitment to the Third World.

In particular, I welcome the fund under subhead C for co-financing aid projects with non-governmental organisations. This is the way forward, rather than working on a Government to Government basis and involving a nation of our size in major projects which may not be the best way to use money. There is a tradition in this country among religious communities working in the Third World and non-governmental organisations that more work is being done and more finance is being made available to the NGOs through voluntary contributions from the people during crisis times. This shows the level of commitment to the NGOs and this type of work. The Department should make more of an effort under subhead C because one is dealing with school classrooms, community centres, wells and equipment for clinics.

I take this opportunity to join the Minister in congratulating the NGOs which are doing an excellent job. Before the Minister came in, we met a delegation of approximately 20 Arab Ambassadors. They made the point — we say this regularly, but we only realise its importance when we hear someone else saying it — that we do not have colonial baggage. This means our motives are not questioned when our people work abroad and that is a vital factor. Congratulations to all concerned in the Department on the work they are doing. When considering sums of almost £100 million, it is important to have visible accountability and to be sure that those who receive the aid correctly and wisely spend the money.

APSO is very important from a social, moral and economic viewpoint. It is an outlet for the energies of young people and those who wish to volunteer their excellent professional capacities to personal service work in the Third World. There is nothing more admirable than this. Our people and how they behave earn us our best reputation abroad. The money for organisations such as APSO tends to be anonymous, especially when it is allocated through international agencies such as the UN. While I agree with Deputy Burke's remarks on the bilateral programme, the source of the money is less anonymous in this instance.

The real strength of our contribution, is through our people. The APSO development is fully in line with what we should concentrate on. I am pleased to see an increase in its budget and I would not object to it increasing in the years ahead, even at the expense of other items, if necessary. APSO is admirably suited to the personal characteristics of our people.

There are one or two points, Minister, I would ask you to clarify in the course of your responses. What is involved in subhead A.1, Actions Consequent on Title V of the Treaty on European Union? I note that the provision this year is almost three times as high as the provision for subhead B which deals with the OSCE.

I too am delighted to note the league table performance in terms of our contribution to overseas aid. We will approach the OCED average this year. What is that average so that we can compare it with the UN target?

Another welcome development is that provision is being made this year for rehabilitation assistance and this kind of activity should be followed up. To what extent is it likely that the involvement of funds and programmes such as this will tend to pre-empt a proportion of the funding available in future years? If we are serious about this programme we must commit funds, not just for one year, but for several years.

The committee would also agree that if savings emerged during the course of the year in subhead C, the fund for co-financing projects with non governmental organisations should be topped up. Do I take it because you refer to this there is a hint that you expect savings to emerge on other subheads or is that an indelicate question?

I am delighted that the EU is the world's biggest aid donor. It is a point which tended to be forgotten in the welter of argument about agriculture and trade policy, but which is useful to make from time to time. Members of the committee will agree that if we make that point we should follow it up with some reflections on the need for the EU to improve the quality and the focus of its aid programme and to back up its aid programme in its policies, and in its participation in the World Trade Organisation with trade policies that will not undermine the objectives of aid policy which has so frequently been the case.

I welcome my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Burton, on her first presentation of Estimates for the overseas development agencies and of our programme in this area. I also welcome the increased Government commitment, now amounting to £89 million under the various headings, to the World Bank, ODA spending, the Department's Votes and so on, together with our contributions to the EU development budget.

Some commentators and politicians complain about Government spending. These complaints are followed by a greater demand from various committees and from the floor of the House for increased spending. However, there is general agreement that spending in this area is welcome. We, as a small nation, have always had a commitment to the Third World. It is important that we reach the acceptable standard of contribution. A major contribution is made by the people of Ireland through charities and otherwise. The provisions in the budget for tax incentives for people to contribute in this area is important. We must balance this incentive by ensuring that the Department of Finance does not allow it to detract from the continuing Government commitment in this area.

I welcome the Minister's remarks on the ODA subcommittee. My colleague, Deputy Gallagher is to lead a delegation from the committee on an important mission to see at first hand the work of some of our agencies and of some of the NGOs. On his behalf I thank the Minister for the assistance her Department has given him in preparing for his mission.

These agencies undertake tremendous work. In submissions directly to them, especially to GOAL, it was suggested that drugs and medicines required by it to provide services were available from Irish manufacturers at a proper price. It was reluctant to make such savings as it had commitments elsewhere regarding the use of its funds. However, the NGOs, especially some of the ones well known in Ireland, should avail of every opportunity to get the best value for money through pharmaceutical companies in Ireland who are prepared to make sacrifices and make drugs and medicines, which are required for fairly quick use, available at a good price.

With regard to subhead G, the contribution to UNRWA is an important one. Having seen the benefits of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, I think they do a lot of important work that is usually unnoticed in the western world, except for those who have seen them in operation. Considering the contribution we make, the value for money with education, health services and food distribution to underprivileged people in that part of the world is immense.

There is also a figure here for the Fourth World Women's Conference. Is this the conference in Beijing? How does that link with our efforts and the committee's anxiety to have representation from our various committee structures? We made a special case to the Minister for Finance in this regard because we feel committees, apart from Government representatives, have a major role to play in that type of conference, one that only happens once every ten years or so. A lot of preparatory work has gone into it over a number of years.

We had the opportunity yesterday to discuss with a South African Minister, Mr. Roelf Meyer, the importance he placed on the contribution Ireland, through the EU, will make in assisting Africa's future development. We all realise the major political advances that have occurred there and we listened yesterday to some of the problems still confronting them.

The Minister confirmed that we are prepared to give increased funding to countries such as South Africa and Zimbabwe. She mentioned that up to 80 per cent of South Africa is still in a third world state; only 20 per cent is in a developed state. Demands are being made on the South African Government for all sorts of services to meet the expectations of the people following the successful conclusion to the first elections. It is important that the Minister spells out the areas she hopes to assist in the development projects that will take place in South Africa.

I welcome the Minister and thank her for presenting the Estimate.

On our projects and Deputy Burke's comment about the NGO co-financing scheme, I hope to see the scheme expanded in two ways, the first in volume terms so that we would be in a position to commit extra resources to the scheme. Second, I want to see evidence of knowledge of the scheme among the estimated 4,000 Irish missionaries who work in the developing world. More than half of them work directly on development work with something in the order of 1,150 Irish people who work with APSO. It is a valuable scheme, generally small in scale and usually used for material equipment, wells and so on.

However, the bilateral programme is also of enormous significance. It is important to remember that the bilateral programme tends to be about inputs which are on a small scale, quite sensitive and increasingly oriented toward the relief of poverty and meeting basic needs. I do not see a clash between the two kinds of scheme but I want to see the co-financing scheme expand. There are missionaries who have been out there a long time and would not have a huge amount of knowledge of it, particularly in countries in parts of South America where we do not have diplomatic representation. I hope to devote some attention to increasing knowledge as well as increasing funding later in the year.

How might money become available? One of the features of the whole budgetary process in relation to ODA is that it takes time to plan projects. Most of the projects, to answer another question from Deputy Dukes, are multiannual in nature. Generally, ODA commitments involve a commitment on a planned basis of somewhere between three and five years where it is of a programme nature. It can take time to nail down the agreement, get people in place and a project started. That is one reason a project might be over budget at the end of the year.

The other reason is that the nature of emergency spending is not predictable. Last year, because of the needs in Rwanda, there was a substantial increase in that area. This year if there are not as many disasters, there might not be quite the same calls on that area of funding. It may mean by the end of the year there is a degree of flexibility but many valuable applications have been made.

Accountability and spending the money wisely — a point raised by Deputy Burke — is important. In seeking the substantial increase in funding for this area which, as Deputy Ferris said, has widespread public and party support, we must reassure people that their money is being spent properly and wisely. The Department designed the programme with sensitivity to cover a number of key areas; the bilateral programme allows us to do things on a long term basis in some of the poorest countries in sub-Saharan Africa; the NGO programme allows flexibility and, allows us to cover other areas of the world which we might not otherwise cover; and then there are our contributions to the major UN organisations.

I am acutely aware that the UN and its various organisations are undergoing a period of reform. Quite honestly, in certain areas like child vaccination, for example, and the whole mother and child programmes, organisations like UNICEF are necessary to tackle that kind of broad scale, public programme in particular countries. A country with a budget the size of ours would not be capable of tackling that so a contribution there is important and appropriate.

For instance, we are now among the top 15 donors to the UNHCR which is the mechanism for relief in disaster and refugee areas around the world. Again from time to time, there are acute criticisms of that organisation but, equally, most observers feel it has done well. The UNHCR works closely with some of our own NGOs, like GOAL and Concern, in a number of refugee areas.

We increasingly undertake quite a lot of detailed discussions with the UN organisations on where our money goes and how it is spent. With the WHO, we have indicated preferences, for instance, in relation to AIDS programmes in certain countries in Africa.

Deputy Lenihan spoke about APSO and his comments are welcome. I anticipate an increase in the APSO budget again next year. There are now over 1,000 Irish people on both long and short term assignments in developing countries. For a country of our size and population, that is one of the highest ratios in the world. In terms of numbers we must continuously ensure we are giving quality training before volunteers go abroad and that they are appropriate to the needs of the situation. Again, there is a change evident in developing countries in that, for instance, up to recently one might find Irish teachers taking classroom places throughout Africa. Now the emphasis tends to be on input to training and curriculum development where local teachers are available to do the teaching.

We can have a quality input. Deputy Burke referred to the fact that we have no colonial baggage. Besides that, there is another important factor; we have undergone a developmental experience ourselves over the last 20 or 30 years. Within many Irish institutions and organisations there is experience of growing an organisation and of training and retraining people.

When the South African Ministers were in Dublin they emphasised this point. They felt Ireland had relevant experience to offer as a country which had undergone substantial change over the last two to three decades.

Deputy Dukes asked about the OECD average. It is about 0.3 per cent and in 1994 we were third from bottom in the league at 0.24 per cent. This year we anticipate being at around 0.27 per cent and we estimate the overall average will probably drop slightly because a number of countries are cutting their contribution.

Deputy Dukes also commented on the EU being the world's biggest donor. That will be of increasing significance in the years to come and deserves reflection and consideration. There have been protracted discussions at EU level in relation to an eighth round of European Development Funding for Lomé countries. Part of that discussion has included a forthright critique of some of the EU programmes. For example, in relation to the recent appointment of the Director of UNICEF the EU countries did not have a common agreed candidate although they were by far the largest donor.

In the field and in terms of influencing the overall direction of a number of UN organisations in terms of the quality of the work they do and the revision they are undergoing, concerted EU action would be very appropriate and would probably be welcomed throughout the developing world. Perhaps it is a matter to which the committee might return.

In relation to the tie-up with trade and agricultural policies, I would welcome a closer examination of the links, which is critical. We tend to talk about development assistance in isolation but we have sensitive interests in relation to trade, although not particularly in relation to debt. Perhaps it is a matter the committee might examine.

Deputy Ferris spoke about South Africa and where we might assist there. Before the changes and the dismantling of apartheid in South Africa we had a number of contacts with NGOs — which are continuing — as well as contacts with Irish missionaries in South Africa. We tend to assist in the rural areas and poor townships where some of the most appalling poverty in the whole of the continent of Africa is found.

The other broad area would be what is called "capacity building" and this was specifically referred to by both South African Ministers on their visit to Dublin earlier this week. Some work has already been undertaken by the IPA in a training capacity. There has also been a mission by the Higher Education Development Co-operation Organisation to South Africa to look at possible co-operation in the educational area. When Minister Meyer was here he talked about possible co-operation in relation to training at local and regional government level. That is an important part of the constitutional package of reforms in South Africa. We, with EU members, would be anxious to see the constitutional programme fully implemented up to 1999.

With regard to Beijing and the Fourth World Women's Conference, we have given a relatively small amount of funding. The committee will note we have given a grant of £10,000 to the UN to subsidise the travel of Third World delegates, women delegates from developing countries to the conference. We are also making an amount of under £20,000 available to a number of Irish NGOs and supporting a delegate from Dóchas, is the collective organisation of NGOs in Ireland, to attend and one from Banúlacht which is a women's organisation dealing specifically with development funding.

We are also looking at funding a number of development workers in the developing world, and their counterparts. We have one proposal for a religious sister working in South America and a similar proposal in relation to one of our projects in Africa for an Irish development worker and her local counterpart. I am sympathetic to these proposals as it would be a useful way to use the experience of the conference in terms of feeding it into our own programmes and bringing it back.

In relation to the question of Oireachtas Members going to the conference, I will convey what has been said to the Minister for Finance. There are still unresolved issues in relation to the Beijing conference, particularly for the NGO community. There has been a problem in relation to location of the site for the NGO conference and a degree of slowness in relation to the accreditation of delegates on the NGO side. We ran an information conference for Irish NGOs on the conference in the Department of Foreign Affairs which was attended by nearly 200 people. Those difficulties have not yet been resolved and we are doing what we can to assist Irish NGOs with accreditation, to assist in the resolution of the siting of the NGO conference and its link to the main conference because that is important to its overall success.

I congratulate the Minister on her presentation. I wish to refer to subhead C and the addition of Mozambique this year as the seventh priority country. Deputy Lenihan emphasised personnel as a main need for many of the countries we hope to help. The best type of help we can give is in that form. I visited Mozambique last October and I wonder if we give it enough attention because it is in the shadow of South Africa, the most well known country in the region that needs help and assistance in advancing democracy.

Mozambique is beside South Africa and was closely aligned to it during the political crises there. A lot of its problems emanate from South Africa. I hope we will be able to highlight Mozambique as a country in need when we talk about South Africa. It is easy to link the two countries because of the historical connections between them.

Mozambique is a war damaged country. For over 15 years it has suffered the ravages of an horrific civil war and the amount of restoration needed is enormous. Therefore, it has particular needs for its circumstances, as the Minister mentioned.

The UN left Mozambique leaving a vacuum in regard to the large amount of finance that goes with any large operation such as the UN operation in Mozambique. There is a large amount of finance missing from the economy that was there from the time of the civil war to the first free elections last October. There is a great and immediate need for food in that country. It is a fertile country where there are no problems for growing food but there is a desperate need for aid and organisation to get that growth underway. There is a total absence of any local government in the area. Could we give some of the local authorities in Ireland some of the finance being made available for assistance to Mozambique to enable them to send expertise from their various departments, which is now desperately needed in Mozambique given the nature of its problems? The gardaí have done some fine work in Mozambique. The only Irish person I had the pleasure of meeting during my visit was a garda whom I met in the middle of Zambezia in a town called Mocuba. He had a Jordanian friend in tow. It is good to have the two countries so closely aligned and I had the opportunity of mentioning it to the Jordanian ambassador when he was here. The close relationship that exists between our two countries is quite significant and the Jordanians have passed comments of praise on our gardaí. The local community had taken the Garda as dealing not alone in policing but in aid, assistance, advice, help and friendliness. These qualities are significant and cannot be written down in financial statements such as we have before us.

I will conclude by asking the Minister what is intended for the sum of money that she has decided to put aside for Mozambique. What will it be directed towards? Will the Department assist in every way possible to highlight the needs of Mozambique at a time when there are so many people looking for attention? We might consider some special relationship with that country, seeing as we had such an involvement during the elections.

We plan to spend about £1.2 million on rehabilitation assistance projects in Mozambique this year. The focus on rehabilitation is in line with the policy of the Mozambican Government, which is encouraging donors to concentrate on rehabilitation for a number of years before embarking on ambitious national development programmes. We will be supporting rural development projects administered by Concern and UNICEF and the development of an urban health centre by GOAL. We are also considering proposals to increase our involvement in improving transport links within the country, including a proposal for the de-mining of some of the main trunk roads. We are hoping to conclude a preliminary agreement with the Mozambican Government later in the year and have a senior official travelling to Mozambique shortly.

I take the Deputy's suggestion in relation to local authority expertise which might, for instance, be funnelled through the IPA. There is of course a language problem in Mozambique but that is not as significant as it once was. Use of English is spreading fairly rapidly in that country. The South Africans have been extremely sensitive to the needs of the whole southern African region in that, being the target of funding, they would not detract from countries like Mozambique and Angola. Mozambique and Angola suffered from the effects of the apartheid wars and they are in need of assistance. It will take us some time to get the programme fully off the ground. It would make a lot of sense if there were significant co-operation between the EU donors. Our willingness to get involved in assisting Mozambique is matched by a number of our EU partners who are very much of the same view, particularly the Scandinavian countries who have a long history of involvement in the area. Mozambique will be a significant target for development assistance but it is important that it is well planned.

When we talk about rehabilitation rather than long term development assistance, we are marking the technical distinction between recovery from a war situation, where in many cases we are trying to rebuild infrastructure on a crash basis, and long term development of infrastructure, which will probably come some time afterwards. That is a new heading we have opened up in our overall development programme this year. We intend providing that kind of assistance to Rwanda as well because it has suffered a catastrophe.

I join with other Members in welcoming the Minister, Deputy Burton, to this meeting. The area of development co-operation is an old stomping ground of mine. I have no doubt that, with the personal experience on the ground that the Minister has, she will make a worthwhile contribution in that area. Our performance on overseas aid is normally related to the percentage of our GNP devoted to ODA as compared to international performance. For years civil servants in the Department of Foreign Affairs have had to couch in most ambiguous phrases our performance or lack of performance. We have had various words used from time to time about increasing aid as our resources permit and all that other rubbish to hide the fact that we were not politically committed on an official level to attaining the UN target. We should be much more up front about the facts.

In 1986 our ODA performance was up to 0.26 per cent of GNP. That was after enduring for a number of years a particularly tight-fisted Minister for Finance — who now happens to be smiling at the memory. Despite that, we were able to bring up our level to 0.26 per cent by 1986. I am glad that the Minister is now, almost ten years later, able to report a performance that is just exceeding that. Let us not forget what happened in the meantime. Effectively, Fianna Fáil slashed the budget from top to bottom and we went into a kind of stop situation from which we are only now recovering. It is better for all concerned, even if we do not attain all the targets in the years ahead, that we are more up front in telling people exactly what the situation is.

The way the Minister's speech was framed displays the usual coyness of the civil servants on this issue. I understand that it is a reflex action on their part and I do not blame them. This reference to the fact that we are third from the bottom and are aiming for another average gives us no idea what the figures are. I still do not know what our aim is. I do not know what our performance being on a par with that of our partners in the European Union means. What is the average in the European Union? We do not know. After some cross-examination, we have discovered that our performance last year was 0.24 per cent of GNP — less than it was in 1986. It is now hoped that it will be 0.27 per cent, slightly more than 1986. I gather that the OECD average was 0.23 per cent of GNP last year and perhaps we will ascertain from the Minister what the EU average is.

I have been listening for many years to claims that we aim to make steady progress towards the UN target. I recall the late John Kelly's criticism of that particular remark. Are we committed to increasing aid by 0.05 per cent of GNP per year or not? If we are, let us say so. If we do not achieve it, let us criticise ourselves. There is no way Fianna Fáil can criticise us because they have only cut ODA. Let us be more up front on that issue.

The manner in which the Estimates are presented is utterly misleading. Again this is not the fault of the Minister or of the Department of Foreign Affairs. We are dealing with a Vote on international co-operation. We are told, as we were told ten years ago, that the first part of the Vote does not deal with ODA at all but that the main part does. Then we are told there are aspects of a number of other Votes that should be included as ODA. The result is that we do not know from the figures what is ODA and what is not. There should be a new approach from the point of view of openness, transparency and accountability — to use the current phrase — in the presentation of the Estimate.

I propose that items which have nothing to do with ODA should go out of the international co-operation Vote. My recollection is that the Council of Europe does not qualify, and that GATT and the WTO should be under the Foreign Affairs Vote. Everything not concerned with ODA should go out of this particular Vote.

That part of the Agriculture and Food Estimate dealing with the FAO should be ODA and should come under the Department of Health Estimate for the WHO. I suggest that the Estimates be recast so that we would have an ODA estimate.

I suppose that the civil servants will come to the Minister's aid in the light of the possible criticism of the NGO Estimate. With such an increase, it is not good enough to be shoving in just a couple of extra £100,000s for the NGOs. I have the feeling that at official level there is not the same warmth towards co-financing with NGOs as at political level. Why? Because there is not the same control. When programmes are run directly or indirectly by the Department there is more control. The official Civil Service mentality is that they are more comfortable with areas of expenditure they control themselves. It may or may not be a fair point, but there is a psychological element to it.

Some marvellous work was done by NGOs and individual missionaries who were able to convert a small grant of £10,000 or £20,000 into constructing a village polytechnic or organising a local water supply. There were no administration costs and almost invariably we got reports which, when checked from time to time, were found to be true and fair. There was the occasional rotten apple, but if you are spending that kind of money that is bound to happen. I encourage the Minister to put more money under that subhead in future and I am glad she wants the fund topped up. It is too late to do it as far as these Estimates are concerned, but it will not be too late by the end of the year because invariably there will be loose money around which, because of the long leadin time, cannot be spent.

I question a slight contradiction in the Minister's speech and subsequent comments about making more knowledge available to missionaries and other people so that there will be a bigger uptake. That seems to contradict the Minister's statement that invariably the demand exceeds the money available. Unless the Minister has a substantial increase in NGO funding in mind, the word should not be spread too widely. The situation should be reversed with extra money being provided first before looking for more requests from around the world.

There is still a view in Ireland that regards ODA as virtually black baby money which is charity, even though there has been a huge return to the country because of our involvement in development co-operation. Some of that return cannot be measured in financial terms, but there are certainly political, diplomatic, social and sociological returns. Aid workers returning to Ireland bring with them experience and vision that the country is lucky to gain.

There is also a financial return. At one stage I recall arranging an investigation into this area and the figures surprised me. There is an enormous return through their semi-State bodies and overseas arms. In addition, there is a big return in consultancies available not just to our semi-States but to many of our private companies. Such an enormous return would not be there were it not for the expenditure of taxpayers' money in ODA.

I recommend transparency on this issue and a research project should be undertaken to ascertain the return to this country in financial terms from being involved in development co-operation. When that information is available it should be widely publicised.

I assure the Minister that between 1982 and 1986 Deputy O'Keeffe never admitted to there being loose money around.

If there is loose money around I am trying to find it. Shortly after arriving to work in Tanzania I was asked unexpectedly to do a seminar on government accounting, a subject about which I knew nothing. However, I read up on it and became convinced — and I remain convinced — that it is an art rather than a science because I do not think there is a huge amount of logic. I accept the Deputy's point about changing the way accounting information is displayed. I recently received a copy of the accounts of the Government of New Zealand, which make interesting reading. They are prepared rather like a set of company accounts and they tidy up a lot of the points that the Deputy addressed.

This is the Vote for International Co-operation, hence the inclusion of areas other than ODA in the subheads, that is the technical reason. As the Deputy rightly points out, there are ODA headings in other budgets, for instance in relation to the World Food Organisation and the FAO in the Department of Agriculture Estimate.

I take issue with Deputy O'Keeffe's suggestion that the Department is currently in any sense hostile to NGOs. I have not found it to be so, obviously I do not know what the situation was ten years ago. The relationship with NGOs is reflected in the fact that the budget for NGOs has gone up since 1993, when spending on the NGO co-financing fund was £1.5 million, to today's figure of £4.3 million. That is a substantial increase in a relatively short time.

In terms of accountability a system had to be established for applications and checking value for money. There has to be a degree of accountability for such spending which I hope to see expanded. I would also like to see knowledge about this expenditure expanded particularly since some of the missionaries on the ground have been away from Ireland for a long time. I do not see any inconsistency in this.

Previously, I worked in the Department of Social Welfare which deals annually with something like 4,000 NGOs under applications for different headings, including women's groups, community groups and voluntary groups of all kinds. Having a range of applications allows you a degree of preplanning so that you may plan on a rotating basis where best you can spend your money.

As the Deputy said, there is a general problem with development funding in the timing of expenditures because there may be a long lead time. There is no great fault in letting it be known and having applications in as early as possible even if one is not in a position to satisfy those applications until sometime afterwards. That may make a lot of sense in terms of the way ODA works.

The Deputy raised the question of value for money and whether there is a return to Ireland from development co-operation spending. The Irish Aid Advisory Committee recently published a report from two leading economists, Professor Alan Matthews and Professor Brendan Walsh. Since I am not an economist, just an accountant, some of it was a bit mystifying to me. It suggested that in principle our aid is not tied, in other words, we do not look for a return. There are flows or returns to us, in esteem, facilitating the work of Irish consultants in UN organisations and in Irish participation generally.

However, it is important that is not the objective of our assistance. Our objective is to assist developing countries. If there are returns, well and good. I welcome the fact that Irish consultants and companies might receive contracts but it would be sad if that was our primary objective.

The DAK committee of the OECD recently published its review of Irish aid and it makes interesting reading. I will make the review available to the committee. It is a thorough analysis of the contribution of the Irish development programme and it is quite laudatory about substantial elements of it. The programme has achieved a great deal because it is untied. As a consequence, our country has gained substantially in status. I welcome Irish consultants and companies doing well as a consequence not only of this but also of their own skills which were learned in many cases through participation in our development programme either with the official development programme or with NGOs. There certainly is a return. We can make the report of the IAAC on this area by Professors Matthews and Walsh available to the committee.

I join colleagues in thanking the Minister for her presentation. We welcome the substantial extra funding being made available for developing countries. Such public spending has the support of all Members of the Oireachtas. On the £0.5 million being provided for action consequent on Title V of the Treaty on European Union and the £175,000 being made available for CSCE I am not sure if that question asked by the Chairman was answered and I would like to hear the reply.

I welcome the proposal that Mozambique be a seventh priority country. Could the Minister inform the committee about the criteria used to decide a priority country? We are also assisting other countries, such as the Palestinian territories, Cambodia and Vietnam. Cambodia and Vietnam underwent tremendous tragedy as a result of war and would appear to be countries that deserve priority treatment. Obviously, every country cannot be a priority country but I am anxious to know the criteria used to make the judgment.

With regard to the work of NGOs, I welcome the 21 per cent increase in the APSO budget. I join my colleagues in paying tribute to the, by and large, voluntary work of ASPO workers. We talk a great deal about accountability. Has the Department of Foreign Affairs any means of measuring the success of projects in which APSO are involved? I do not suggest that APSO is failing as the reports we receive from volunteers throughout the Third World say that APSO is succeeding.

I welcome a number of major increases in funding. We are increasing our contribution to the UN voluntary fund for women's development by over 100 per cent. We are also increasing our contribution to the World Health Organisaton AIDS programme and are contributing £100,000 to the voluntary fund for assistance in mine clearing. The Minister will be aware that the latter issue has been the subject of a considerable amount of discussion in this committee. The Minister has a personal interest in this issue and I welcome that contribution and the other increases in funding.

I apologise for not replying to the earlier question about subhead A. I will deal with that first. This is not part of overseas development assistance. It is part of the Department of Foreign Affairs budget rather than that of the general co-operation division. That budget line was introduced to provide funding for Irish contributions to measures adopted under the common foreign and security policy, which are financed in whole or in part by national contributions.

Last year was the first full year of the operation of the Maastrich Treaty. Irish contributions were funded on an ad hocbasis from the development co-operation Vote. Since the treaty came into force on 1 November, Ireland has been required to make national contributions totalling £337,000 to the following measures: Russian election monitoring — general costs were funded through the taxes programme and the sum was about £19,300; South Africa election monitoring — about £200,000; Bosnia-Hertzegovina humanitarian assistance — about £118,000 in 1994.

Measures which are in the pipeline in relation to operational expenditure in this area include assistance to the Palestinian administration as part of the joint action on the Middle East peace process. Current indications are that this will be financed partly through the Community budget — 10 to 15 million ECU — and partly through national contributions which are expected to match the contribution from the Community budget. A sum of 0.19 million ECU has been allocated from the Community budget to finance joint action on anti-personnel mines but there are no national contributions to this. There will be funding for various initiatives in relation to peace in Burundi. There will be continuation of expenditure for Bosnia-Hertzegovina humanitarian assistance and the continuation of the joint administration in Mostar. This is a case where there is both national and Community budget funding and the budget line I mentioned represents our national funding for this area of the Maastricht Treaty. It is essentially for democratisation and humanitarian work which are adjuncts of peace enforcement in post-conflict situations.

The Deputy also asked about the criteria for selecting priority countries. The most important criterion is the degree of need. The second criterion is the capacity to absorb help and the adaptability of Irish skills and expertise. In other words, have we the capacity to make a meaningful input? In some cases there might be great need but because of, for example, language or cultural barriers we would not be in a position to assist in a meaningful way, bearing in mind that our total development programme is small and concentrated around inputs of expertise rather than buildings or major projects. Historic links are also taken into consideration. Often these relate to missionary and NGO links with the country. Another criterion is some degree of stability so that it is possible to work out three or five year development co-operation programmes.

So far, in terms of priority, we have concentrated on sub-Saharan Africa because, according to the figures produced by the DAK, these are the countries with the greatest levels of need and the lowest levels of income. We have tended to get involved in areas such as Cambodia and Vietnam because they have been brought to our attention either by Deputies in the House or by NGOs and we often work there in conjunction with Irish NGOs. In Cambodia and Vietnam, for example, we are involved in assisting various mine clearance programmes. One of the objectives of our foreign policy is to assist in securing the elimination of mines as an inhumane weapon and, secondly, to assist in de-mining. The EU has also begun substantial work in that area and that is an important development.

The Deputy also asked about the success of APSO and the evaluation of projects. Irish ODA has a history of about 15 years. Until relatively recently evaluation has not been one of the critical areas. We now have enough history to look back at priority countries and work with the NGOs in a number of areas to attempt to ascertain if we achieved what we sought to achieve.

Last year APSO commissioned a report on their work from Fitzpatrick's consultants. I believe there should be a further evaluation and examination of APSO, particularly in the context of its target and also because requirements in relation to expatriate technical expertise are changing. There is a general mood in developing countries that where, for instance, they have large supplies of their own graduates, there is something wrong with foreign expatriates coming in to do work which the recipient country's own people should do themselves. Our input might be more in terms of assistance, mentoring, curriculum development, capacity building and management, particularly in areas like the health service. We will have to look at these newer areas over the next decade and APSO is conscious that it may be necesary to reorient itself.

Report of Select Committee.

Thank you, Minister. The committee will join with me in thanking you for the comprehensive and patient way in which you have dealt with our queries and comments. It has been a very useful discussion. In accordance with our terms of reference I propose the following draft report:

The Select Committee on Foreign Affairs has considered the following revised Estimates for the public services for 1995: Vote 38 — Foreign Affairs, and Vote 39 — International Co-operation. The revised Estimates are hereby reported to the Dáil.

Is that agreed?

Report agreed to.

The Select Committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m.

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