SELECT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION (Select Sub-Committee on Education and Skills) díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011

Education and Training Boards Bill 2011: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

I have received apologies from Deputy Brendan Smith who will be here before the end of the meeting. Are the minutes of the meeting held on 9 November 2011 agreed? Agreed.

I welcome three groups to this meeting to discuss the draft Heads of the Bill of the Education and Training Boards Bill 2011. I welcome the Irish Vocational Education Association with Mr. Michael Moriarty, general secretary and Councillor Pat Kilbane, vice-president; the Chief Executives and Education Officers Association with Ms Fiona Harley, chief executive officer of County Wicklow Vocational Education Committee and president of the CEEOA and Mr. George O'Callaghan, chief executive officer of County Clare Vocational Education Committee; and the Adult Education Officers Association with Ms Geraldine Canning, president and Ms Mary Hamilton, chief executive officer. I thank everyone for taking the time to talk to the committee. This is a new format for dealing with Bills and this is the first such meeting. I hope it will prove worthwhile for all involved.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and the witness continues to so do, the witness is entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and witnesses are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

By way of information, this committee will report back to the Joint Committee on Education and Skills in early December and we hope to present our report and any changes to the Bill to the Minister before Christmas, probably in the third week of December. We have asked a number of groups to provide written submissions and we have invited groups to present oral submissions. We may decide to invite further groups if necessary but we have been informed that those present today are the main groups with an interest in this Bill. Members will also consider the Bill and suggest changes.

The procedure is that the Minister will attend this sub-committee after Christmas, probably during January, to discuss our report and recommendations before the Bill is published and is introduced in the Dáil. I invite Mr. Moriarty to make a presentation on behalf of his association. I suggest we listen to the three presentations first and then follow with a question and answer session with members. This will give everyone a fair chance to answer questions.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

The Irish Vocational Education Association, IVEA, is the representative body for the 33 current vocational education committees, VECs, which are statutory authorities soon to be amalgamated into 16 education and training boards and which is one of the main functions of the Education and Training Boards Bill 2011, under discussion today.

The Bill, together with the proposed legislation to establish SOLAS, set out the role of the education training boards in the delivery of education and training. These will profoundly change the Irish educational landscape through the establishment of a middle tier education and training authority structure.

The proposed legislation consolidates the existing vocational education Acts into one single Act. We welcome this consolidation of legislation and the modernisation of the legislative provisions which will govern the education training boards. In particular, we welcome the referral of the heads of the Bill, in the first instance, to this sub-committee, thus affording IVEA an opportunity to input our views at an early stage.

IVEA has proposed a number of amendments to the Bill, and these recommendations are appended to the document submitted to the committee. The main IVEA recommendations deal with provisions in the draft legislation concerning the composition of the new education and training boards; co-operation between education and training boards; the chief executive officer; and a number of other recommendations for the purposes of increasing clarity and certainty in the legislation.

To deal with the composition of the education and training boards, currently, the heads of the Bill provide for an 18-member education and training board with ten persons nominated by the local authority, two persons nominated by parent bodies, two persons nominated by staff and four persons nominated by community representatives. Over the years, working at the heart of local communities, with strong community voices represented on their committees, VECs have been delivering a wide range of education, training and related services to those communities. IVEA has long argued that the great strength of VECs has been this close association with their local communities and that this is the basis of their efficiency and effectiveness as local statutory education authorities.

With the proposals in this new legislation to amalgamate most of the current VECs into two and three county education training boards, this community and local voice is much diluted, if not fully lost. In order to maintain or restore, as far as possible, a strong local representation, IVEA seeks that the provisions with regard to membership on the education and training boards be somewhat revised. We are not asking for very much but we are asking for an increase. We are recommending that an education and training board should have 21 - rather than 18 - members if it is established through the amalgamation of two VECs and that it should have 24 members if it is established through the amalgamation of three VECs. The IVEA is recommending that the revised legislation should provide for 12 local authority representatives, or 15 in a three-county configuration, as well as two parent representatives, two staff representatives and five community representatives. We recommend that the additional community representative should reflect the enlarged adult education population, which will come to us when the FÁS training centres are transferred to us.

Under this heading, the IVEA is also making recommendations for consideration concerning representation from community national schools, the timing of elections and representation from county, city and town councils. As representation from town councils is being dropped in the new legislation, the IVEA is recommending that specific provision should be made for town councils to be represented among the people elected by the local authority. In other words, when the local authority is electing its delegates, it should consider members of town councils rather than dropping them completely. Our submission deals with the basis for designating the number of members elected, gender balance and how casual vacancies on education and training boards should be treated.

Section 31 relates to co-operation with education and training boards. In the case of sections 31(3), 31(7) and 31(9), the IVEA feels the Minister's legal capacity to direct a representational body should be amended. My association is a representational body - it is not a statutory body. The wording in the appended document has been suggested and is subject to approval. It ensures the Minister's directions are given to the VECs and not to the IVEA. If the Minister makes a request to the IVEA, that would be one way around the problem.

The IVEA welcomes the human resource aspect of this legislation. For the first time, VEC staff will have access to the State's appeals mechanisms, such as the Employment Appeals Tribunal, which will bring them into line with other public service staff. That is to be welcomed. The IVEA, as an employers' body, is proposing certain amendments with the purpose of bringing greater clarity and certainty to the provisions which address matters relating to the chief executive officers of education and training boards. We know they are in line with what the chief executive officers are saying. In this respect, the IVEA supports the chief executive officers. We recommend the adoption of those amendments.

In order to provide more clarity and certainty, we have made recommendations with about the title of a statement of strategy and the requirement for a member of a board of management to reside within the locality of the board's school, centre or other education and training setting. Among the functions provided in the new legislation, it is envisaged that education and training boards will provide supports and services to other education providers in their functional areas. The IVEA welcomes this aspect of the legislation as an acknowledgement of the VECs' extensive local knowledge and experience of working in and with local communities. We think it is critically important that the resources and expertise within each VEC area are made available to other education providers, including other schools within the catchment area at primary and secondary levels, if they so desire.

Following the enactment of this proposed legislation, education and training boards will be established with clear functions, roles and responsibilities. The legislation that will establish SOLAS and the further education and training sector will set out the roles and functions of education and training boards, especially in the areas of education and training. Both pieces of legislation aim to modernise Irish educational structures. They envisage that the former VECs, to be known as education and training boards, will be central to that process. This is the most profound change and most fundamental restructuring that has happened in the education sector for many decades, even if it is not recognised as such. We have been calling for the establishment of a further education and training sector for a decade or so. We are pleased that it is now being brought into the mainstream. As well as having primary, secondary and third levels, we will now have a further education and training sector. This is about much more than the abolition of FÁS - it is about mainstreaming further education and training as a distinct element of the education sector.

The IVEA will work with the Minister and the Department to ensure this transformation process happens as quickly as possible. Foresight, flexibility and the commitment of all the relevant partners will be required if the targets of a reformed education and training sector are to be met successfully. The VECs have long risen to the social and educational challenges Ireland has faced over the years. The education and training boards and the IVEA, which will be the boards' official representative body, will live up to that proud tradition. We will rise to meet these new challenges with vision and purpose.

Ms Fiona Harley

The Chief Executive and Education Officers Association welcomes the opportunity to make a submission to the sub-committee on the Qualifications and Quality Assurance (Education and Training) Bill 2011. We believe the proposed legislation is timely and will lead to an enhanced education and training service in Ireland. The local education and training boards will have a statutory role at local level and will be charged with implementing government policies in education and training. The legislation will allow local education and training boards to provide a broad range of services across the education spectrum. The establishment of SOLAS - the local education and training boards will have a role in delivering training services on behalf of that new body - also represents a significant development in the functions of the new entities. In this regard, the association believes the SOLAS legislation will have to be dealt with in parallel with the legislation governing the local education and training boards.

The Chief Executive and Education Officers Association has examined the heads of the Bill in the context of their implications for the executive functions that are exercised by the chief executive officer and the impact of the heads of the Bill on the work and conditions of the chief executive officer. In this context, the association and the IVEA have worked closely in drafting our submissions on the heads of the Bill. Our submission deals specifically with the aspects of the heads of the Bill that are germane to the chief executive officer in the fulfilment of his or her functions under the terms of the Bill. The association welcomes the intention that underpins this proposed legislation, which is to maintain the best aspects of the existing legislation. The Bill also updates other aspects of the operation of the VECs and integrates them in the context of the operation of the new local education and training boards. The Bill gives the new local education and training boards an opportunity to build on these foundations and to expand the role of the boards into the training sphere. The provisions of the Bill will enable local education and training boards to provide significant leadership in the further development of education and training services nationally.

The Chief Executive and Education Officers Association is proposing eight amendments, the first of which concerns the proposed section 38, which is in Part 5, which relates to human resources. The amendment concerns the appointment of a chief executive officer. It is considered vital for the standing of the post of chief executive officer of an education and training board - as the post holder of a statutory public office - that the recruitment to that post should be undertaken by the Public Appointments Service and that the recommendation will then be forwarded to the education and training board for appointment. Accordingly, the association wishes to propose an amendment to section 38(2) to ensure it includes the words "appointed by an education and training board on the recommendation of the Public Appointments Service (or its successor)".

Our second proposal concerns the proposed section 38, which deals with the suspension or removal of a chief executive officer. We propose that the second half of section 39(1)(a) be amended to include the phrase “for stated reasons” so that the clause then reads “if his or her suspension appears to them for stated reasons to be necessary for the effective performance by the board of its functions”. At present, it provides that members can seek a suspension if it appears to them to be necessary. The association is also proposing to amend the proposed section 39(2)(a), which concerns the notice of an intention to propose a resolution to suspend or remove a chief executive officer. We are suggesting the removal of the reference to six of the members of the education and training board concerned and its replacement with a reference to “at least one third one of the total number of members”. We further propose the amendment of the proposed section 39(5)(a), which concerns the numbers necessary for the passing of a resolution under this section. We want to remove the reference to 13 members and to replace it with a reference to “at least three quarters of the total number of members”. Finally in this section, we want to amend the proposed section 39 (2)(e) to provide that a notice of intention should be delivered by the head of human resources, rather than by any member of staff, which is what is currently provided for.

Our third proposal concerns the interpretation section in Part l. The Chief Executive and Education Officers Association proposes that the definition of the IVEA should be amended to read the Irish Vocational Educational Association "means a representative body consisting of education and training boards and recognised by the Minister for the purposes of this Act".

Our fourth proposal concerns the proposed section 31. As Mr. Moriarty has already outlined, this section deals with co-operation between education and training boards. The association is proposing that section 31 should be amended by deleting section 31(7) and also by deleting "Irish Vocational Education Association" from section 31(9). Heads 31(7) and 31(9) as currently drafted might give rise to possible role confusion for the Irish Vocational Education Association, the IVEA, as a representative body for the member education and training boards, ETBs, which is recognised by the Minister.

Like the IVEA, the Chief Executive and Education Officers Association, CEEOA, proposes amending head 27, statement of strategy to statement of education and training strategy. The CEEOA also proposes amending head 11(8) to state, "When electing, nominating or appointing people to education and training boards under subhead (1)(a) or (d), each person or body shall have regard to the desirability of attaining gender balance in the board and to include at least one representative from each gender."

The CEEOA makes a similar recommendation to the IVEA on casual vacancies. The CEEOA proposes amending head 22(1)(a) with the addition of the words “training centres” before the words “education and training settings”. This would include FÁS training centres when SOLAS, seirbhísí oideachais leanunaigh agus scileanna, is established.

The existing VECs, vocational education committees, established through the 1930 Vocational Education Act have a proud tradition in delivering quality education over the past 80 years. They have exercised a significant leadership role in providing an adequate and innovative response to the needs of learners across the age spectrum of society. They have done so underpinned by the principles of a locally-based democratic model of an inclusive and broad-based high quality education service. The establishment of the local ETBs will build on this tradition and will enhance the already high standards of education provision at primary, post-primary, further education and adult education levels, now coupled with the added training dimension that will be part of the remit of the proposed new boards. CEEOA believes these boards will be well placed to co-ordinate and deliver education and training services at local level. We look forward to responding to the challenge with both confidence and enthusiasm.

Ms Geraldine Canning

As managers of the adult education service reporting to our respective chief executive officers, our contribution will be specific to the adult and further education sector based on our recent strategic document, Balancing Effectiveness and Equity in the New Further Education and Training Sector. Our proposals relate to four main elements of the change-management process required for the effective integration of VEC, adult and further education provision and FÁS training provision, prior to and post establishment of the new ETBs. Our submission highlights the importance of implementing the merger of the two sectors using a planned and systematic change-management process. It must focus on integrated structure, staff competence and strategic partnerships. By successfully implementing these elements, we should achieve a quality service that will then deliver quality programmes which is what VECs are all about.

An integrated organisational structure must be designed along with integrated management systems that will promote the effectiveness, efficiency and coherence of the new ETBs. SOLAS will provide the change leadership required to support the merger of the education and training provision, institutions and staff of FÁS and the VECs in the new ETB structures. Given that merger integration is widely acknowledged as presenting the ultimate change-management challenge, the Adult Education Officers Association, AEOA, believes for the process to be successful, it must begin with clear consensus on the strategic direction and objectives of the new combined entities with a shared understanding of the primary values driving them.

A comprehensive audit and analysis of existing further education and training structures, functions and provision should be conducted to define the key functions of the new entity in the context of current and future social and economic realities. To ensure full integration equal expertise from both sectors of education and training must be represented. A new entity is essential, not just a merger of existing old ones. The success of this venture will lie on the two cultures blending together to create a new vision and purpose for further education and training. The publication of a skeleton type consultative structure for the operation of the ETBs in the near future would serve to advance the change-management and leadership agenda.

The capacity of all staff in the new ETBs must be built upon to ensure they can make positive contributions in the range of ETB teaching and learning environments and in improving outcomes for adult learners. The new local ETBs will face many challenges, not least the challenge of bringing together staff from the different geographical locations, backgrounds specialisms and organisations. It is inevitable stress and tension will arise during this change-management process. This challenge must be addressed with clarity and clear goals identified. Management must endeavour to synchronise mind sets and build a new common organisational structure that will include all staff.

Communication is seen as critical to gain support from and encourage all staff to embrace the change. A transition programme should be devised to develop operational guidelines during this critical period. Clear objectives outlined around qualifications, expectations and new proposed processes and outcomes in the new structure would be welcomed.

Regarding strategic partnerships, the stakeholders in further education, training and skills must be supported to work together in an atmosphere of trust, co-operation and mutual respect to develop adult learning and teaching responses that are both relevant and effective. ETBs and their staff will be working in co-operation with the other stakeholders at regional and national levels. The role that strategic local and national partnerships play in the operation and support of ETBs is crucial.

Several important institutional reforms have already been initiated and are being implemented. The integration of income support with activation is in line with best practice in many other European countries. It is as yet unclear, however, how the provision of training is to be organised between NEES, SOLAS and ETBs. SOLAS and NEES will play a key role nationally in the implementation of reform ideas and programmes that positively impact on all stakeholders to ensure the current and future quality of education opportunities and experiences for learner across Ireland. ETB's will work with a variety of local partners to provide individuals with the tailored skills and employment support they need in a dynamic economy. This means transforming the way in which we deliver that support so that we maximise the expertise of all sectors, both nationally and locally.

Locally, ETB's will increasingly need to show how they will bring existing services together to ensure a seamless service of advice, support and training is offered, tailored to local labour market needs in conjunction with local employers and to the needs of individuals seeking work. The success of these partnerships, whether at local or national level, and the impact they will ultimately have on the quality and relevance of further education and training in Ireland will be dependent on maximisation of effective, in-built consultation and feedback mechanisms.

All programmes must be ensured to have currency and are effective in meeting the needs of learners, society employers and industry. This must be reflected in the design of programmes, as well as in their delivery, that are relevant to the modern world and participants' realities. Ongoing and systematic programme review is fundamental to quality enhancement of education and training provision.

Local ETBs should have full responsibility for all education and training at local level. They must be able to plan, design and deliver programmes in response to local needs. They need to be flexible and have autonomy to make decisions at local level. Programmes need to be well thought out and coherent offering breadth and depth allowing for future study or work. Creativity and innovation will be essential in the design and delivery of all programmes. The role of education and training is much wider than satisfying the manpower needs of the economy.

Restrictive activation measures may help to combat unemployment, but on their own they are insufficient to address the much more complex issues associated with poverty and exclusion. It is imperative, therefore, that the newly merged further education and training sector places equal value on both the social and economic outcomes of learning. Careful and informed consideration must be given as to how to allocate resources in a manner that balances effectiveness and equity.

Chairman

I thank all three witnesses for their presentations. We will move on to questions. The witnesses will appreciate that we do not have the SOLAS legislation before us yet, we only have the Education and Training Boards Bill. Some of this discussion, however, will feed into our future discussions on the SOLAS Bill.

Deputy Nicky McFadden

I welcome everybody and thank them for their excellent presentations. Having served on a VEC since 1999, I am acutely aware of the great work that is going on. My concern is that we will have more of the same. I have serious concerns about numeracy and literacy; also, FETAC levels 1 to 3 must be covered. These are important. I also agree with the point about local voices. Who knows the community better than the local people in the VEC? I agree that if it is all dictated from on high, the local voice will be diluted. I agree with what Ms Canning said in her presentation, which reflects my concerns. I am very concerned that SOLAS will be the same as FÁS, and we cannot have that again.

With regard to integration, it is true that a new entity is essential rather than a merging of old existing committees and practices. It must be brand new, refreshing and innovative, and I look forward to the new vision that was referred to. It is a very exciting time, as Mr. Moriarty said. Ms Canning mentioned maximising the talents of all people that are involved. I ask her, in view of her expertise, how we can bring out the value of every single person when the VECs and FÁS merge. How will we value every single person? My concern is about numeracy and literacy as well.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

I will ask my colleagues to deal with some of the issues raised but with regard to literacy and numeracy, we are conscious, as VEC personnel and representatives of the VEC sector, that levels 1 to 3 should not be forgotten in the rush to high-end skills. We have been making that case. I must declare an interest in that I have been appointed to the SOLAS board, which is currently the board of FÁS. I will ask my colleagues to address that issue. Both Ms Harley and myself are on the SOLAS implementation group chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon, and we have argued the case that a focus on levels 1 to 3 must not be lost, because that is what VECs are very good at. Our own education officer has made the point over and over that we cannot lose sight of that.

On the structural change, there is a unique opportunity to develop a proper middle-tier education system. For all of us, that means painful change. We have gone through a painful change process in the VEC sector, but we are prepared to get on with it and to work with the Government and with committees such as this to develop a new integrated structure. That will be difficult, and there are ambitious timeframes.

There are two processes happening side by side. We are aggregating and integrating VECs into education and training boards, which involves the integration of cultures that have been separate and embedded in 33 different entities for a long time, and we are also trying to match the training sector managed by FÁS - with its different cultures, different staff relationships and different ways of doing business - with the further education sector of the VECs. Each of those tasks by itself would be enormous but together they present significant challenges for the State and for all of us involved in the process, and we are conscious of that. It would be a waste of all our time if we do not come up with a model that is far better than what we have at the moment.

I have always been supportive of education and training under one entity because that is the model that is prevalent throughout northern Europe. We are a member of the European Federation of Education Employers and European vocational bodies, and they have always found it strange that further education in Ireland is delivered by one entity while training is delivered by another entity - two statutory bodies travelling side by side but never meeting. Now we have to cross those two lines and create an integrated training sector.

There is no shortage of willpower, vision or commitment. Only time will tell whether we will end up with a structure that will deliver on the needs of the community and the people we serve. All of us involved in education and training must start from the position of the client. What is proposed is that SOLAS will be the national employment and entitlements service while the VECs deliver the education and training programmes. That is a good combination that can work. The relationships must be defined between these entities, as my colleagues have said. I know I am ranging between two Bills, but they are integrated because the training boards are involved in both.

If the Government, or this Oireachtas committee, wants an oversight of what is happening in terms of delivery within the education and training board catchment area, we make the point over and over that statutory responsibility for that should rest with the education and training board. Yes, there will be private providers - a significant number of them, because at the moment, 80% of FÁS training is given by private providers - and the education and training board would contract in anything it cannot do itself. In this way we will have a statutory body that is capable of delivering reports from the local community, which is important from the points of view of both policy makers and clients.

Deputy Nicky McFadden

I have concerns about contracting out because I have experienced very poor delivery of service from contractors. Never mind numeracy and literacy - people who are barely able to speak English come out having passed their exams. In addition, courses are completed in a very short period - far shorter than the time in which FÁS or SOLAS would have completed them. Contracting out is harmful. Everything should be done in-house.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

We would love to do that ourselves but we have to deal with the reality of employment control frameworks, moratoriums on recruitment and so on. If 80% of FÁS's training is by contract it means a significant percentage will remain. We have had bad experiences in this country with private providers and this has been well rehearsed. The way around this is that the head office of SOLAS should pre-approve these providers so that a quality assurance attaches to the process or that the vocational education committees could draw from a pre-approved panel made up of a small number of select providers. This would only be in cases where the education or training could not be provided from the education and training boards' staff, for example, in the case of high-end computer skills. We are taking on board the full range of education and training from the basic type at level 1 to the highest end. The reality is that we will be faced with provision of services by providers other than the education and training board. However, such cases should be quality assured and pre-approved by the head office of SOLAS as part of its brief. In this way we can have absolute assurance that there is quality assurance throughout the sector. The contracting for providers should rest with the education and training boards. They will have control of quality assurance and can be absolutely satisfied that work has been in accordance with the standards set by the public sector education and training providers for a long period.

The idea that others would be contracted in to provide competition sounds great on paper. However, if the committee members, as policy makers, the Government or the Department wish to assess the quality, extent and scope of delivery subsequently only the education and training authority can do so. It must have oversight of the entire provision whether by itself or by others within the catchment.

Ms Fiona Harley

I wish to address two points raised relating to SOLAS and literacy and numeracy. I echo some of Mr. Moriarty's comments. We would be facing significant change management if it were simply the introduction of the local education and training boards but in addition we are faced with the establishment of SOLAS and the merging of FETAC and HETAC into the new quality and qualifications assurance in Ireland, QQAI, body which should address the committee's concerns. The new national body for quality and qualifications assurance in Ireland will go some way towards helping this change management process even though it will be greater than we believed at the beginning.

As the Adult Education Officers Association, AAOA, suggested the challenge will be a merging of cultures and it will involve a change management process. It is essential that we do not lose sight of this and allow it to become all about SOLAS and training. As the committee has noted this is about social inclusion as well. Mr. Moriarty referred to this point earlier in his submission. It is radical to recognise a further education and training sector. Too often we focus only on the training sector but this involves further education as well. Those of us who have laboured long and hard in the further education sector of the VEC welcome this development. The VECs can be justly proud of how they have developed and established the sector. For example, post-leaving certificate courses were created as innovative responses.

This process involves further education and training. Mr. Moriarty mentioned that both he and I represent the Irish Vocational Education Association, IVEA, on the SOLAS implementation group. We are reassured and pleased to hear that working groups will be established made up of representatives comprising the education and training sides to effect the necessary change management and that there should be a balance and an equal representation of the education and training sides.

The committee has rightly identified the importance of emphasising level 1 and level 3 and that they should not be left out in the rush towards high end qualifications and the need to deal with people who are already qualified. It is easier to address people who already have a certain level of qualification with short-term, short fix skills but the greater challenge is to give people overall awards from level 1 to level 4. This will be the key to addressing the skills shortage in the long term.

One of the catchphrases at the moment is 21st century skills. These are listed as innovation, communication, critical thinking and so on. However, only by investing in people with level 1 to level 4 overall awards will one equip people with these skills. These represent the foundation to which we can add on the technical and additional vocational skills.

There is an issue with regard to private providers and all the arguments have been rehearsed before. However, there is a challenge within the new structure for the local education and training boards to take on responsibility. As I remarked earlier, the new QQAI structure will go a long way towards ensuring that we look after this end of matters.

The issue of literacy and numeracy was raised. We are discussing SOLAS and further education and training but the local education and training boards will span the whole of education from primary, post-primary, further education and adult education. The VEC sector is long used, through our initiatives and DEIS schools, to addressing disadvantaged areas and we have many creative strategies to address literacy and numeracy. In particular I have in mind our school completion and several other initiatives to address literacy and numeracy through family learning pilots. This is the way forward to address literacy and numeracy across the whole spectrum, not simply in terms of remedial action at further education and adult education levels.

Mr. Pat Kilbane

I welcome the opportunity to address the committee. The time is opportune to examine the most profound change proposed in the vocational education sector since its establishment in the 1930s. We are doing it in the most difficult and inclement of economic times. The structures as proposed are geographically vast. The VEC sector has always been willing and able to take on change. I have been involved in education as a teacher in the sector for 39 years and on the committee at management level since 1979. We have promoted adult education as a community-based resource for development in the country. Life-long learning, adult and continuing education, special education and disadvantaged education was promoted and pioneered by the VECs before it was popular to do so.

As other speakers have suggested, SOLAS should involved a twin-track approach and training and education must run parallel. Training and upskilling must not exclude the educational format which should go hand in hand with these. The success of the VECs in terms of what they achieved in post-leaving certificate education is testament to how willing they are to adapt. Without sufficient resources for this profound change, it will not be a success. We are willing to take on the new structures but to enable the sector to develop the full potential - I see this development as a positive step - we need the resources to put in place the aspirations set out. The recommendations we have made to the committee on the amended representation role are essential for betterment because there are vast disparities geographically, socially and culturally in some of the areas involved. In cases where three county structures or educational entities are being merged, they may be altogether dissimilar to one that stands alone or where there were two such bodies. We embrace the change and we look forward to putting in place the conclusions and to develop an enhanced and expanding structure in education throughout our entire remit. We believe the recommendations we have made to the committee should be accepted and would enhance the potential of the new entities in future.

Ms Mary Hamilton

I do not want to reiterate any of the comments made to date but I wish to make some points with regard to the double-question posed earlier. One element related to how we will manage the harmonisation of FÁS and VEC staff and the second was how we would address the numeracy and literacy needs of the lowest skilled people at the same time. Unless we are up front and transparent about the values that will underpin the new structures and the new bodies we are going nowhere. Is it purely an activation agenda that is about meeting economic outcomes? Or are we still concerned about social inclusion and about life-long learning and its value for people's lives, their work and their families? We have to be up front about that.

Assuming that SOLAS will be about equality and efficiency, we must recognise that for many years, FÁS staff have a lot of expertise in technical training and specific training. VEC staff, particularly those in adult and further education, have much experience in what could be called the development of the generic or the core skills, such as literacy, numeracy, basic IT and interpersonal skills. Through the FÁS regional consultative committees, FÁS and local VECs have been working together over the last few years and have drawn up blueprints in this respect. Members probably have not seen them and they have not got much further than local level but there are good models in place where the VECs integrated these core skills, while the FÁS staff work on the more side. They are coming up with a more integrated model. Many innovative models have been developed and implemented at local level and they are well worth examining when designing the broad national structure.

Mr. George O’Callaghan

I would see the new LETBs as having a significant role in developing support services for literacy and numeracy across the sectors for the main scheme schools. We must not forget the needs of those schools in that respect. This legislation provides enabling provisions that will allow for that. We must not forget our role across the age spectrum, from primary to post-primary to further education as well, when looking at the role and function of the new LETBs.

Chairman

I will bank the next few questions because one Deputy has to leave early. I call on Deputies Crowe, Smith and Ó Ríordáin in that order. With the agreement of the committee, I will ask Deputy McFadden to chair the meeting briefly.

Deputy Nicky McFadden took the chair.

Deputy Seán Crowe

I welcome the witnesses here today. There have been several proposals on changing the legislation. Have the witnesses discussed that? Do they have a difficulty with the 21 member board being proposed with the IVEA? I agree with the proposal that we beef up the community element, but how do we do that with this board?

The submission by the Adult Education Officers Association refers to ensuring that all programmes have currency that is effective in a learning society. I fully agree with that. It also comes down to flexibility. Time changes might create difficulties for many of the staff, but now we need to talk about that.

The new consolidated legislation provides that representation from town councils be dropped. This is probably going against what the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government has been saying. I agree there needs to be some role for this. Part of it is about tying in these different Bills and dealing with efficiency, modernisation and so on, but it is also about saving money. Slimming down everything might not necessarily be the best thing. Have the groups carried out costings on all this?

I agree with the positive gender balance proposed. Should we also take ethnicity into account? Some of the groups have come back and told us that we are in a changed society. Traveller groups are suggesting that they should have representatives. We also have the new Irish, so should that be examined? How do we do that within the structures? Does it come in under extra-community representation? Should boards be looking at trying to include different groups like these?

I agree with the point made about life-long learning. We have a document which states that schools are the centre of learning in communities, and everybody aspires to that. We all want to see schools and the centres of knowledge opened up to the public, and this is how the vocational education sector has spearheaded that over the years. I congratulate the witnesses on that. We are all in favour of change, but not just for the sake of change. Clearly there were training difficulties in the past and that is where flexibility comes in, but there is huge potential if we can get this right. We have had a number of groups appear before the committee. There are difficulties with the locations of headquarters, sub-offices and those groups the Minister wishes to abolish. These are outside our control.

The witnesses state that it is unclear how the provision of training is to be organised between the NEWB, SOLAS and LETBs. Perhaps it is something we can examine in this committee.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I apologise for being late. I was delayed at earlier meetings and I want to join with other members in welcoming the representatives of the different organisations here today. Their submissions are very important. It is welcome that we have an opportunity to discuss the heads of the Bill at an early stage and that people involved at the coalface do not have to recommend changes as it is being concluded. I note from the submissions that the delegations are all very positive, as are we on this committee. Speaking on behalf of my own party, I welcome these developments and the proposed legislation to come before the Oireachtas.

I attended a councillors' conference at the weekend and I met a number of councillors who have been long-standing members of the VECs and the IVEA as well, and they were very strong on the point put forward by Mr. Moriarty on the need for an enlarged membership. When officials from the Department spoke to us, we raised the issue of three VECs forming a new entity, such as Mayo, Roscommon and Leitrim. We want to ensure that the likes of Leitrim is not left on the back burner. The population of Leitrim is around 32,000. I am not clear from the draft heads of the Bill if each local authority will have equal representation. It is essential that the smaller local authority not be submerged due to the population weighting towards the other local authorities. I hope the IVEA will be strong in supporting equal representation for a county council.

Deputy Crowe spoke about the town councils. The Minister for Environment, Community and Local Government has spoken about local government reform. I do not know if town councils will survive into the future. I hope that at least we have a town council for each county town. In most instances they strike a rate as they are in any event. They are somewhat different from the former town commissions that are now classed as town councils. In the new structures, provision should be made, or at least considered, for representation of the town councils of county towns. The Deputy rightly points to the possibility of having representation from community national schools. This has great potential from the point of view of the new entities and also with regard to recognition of the adult education community. That has been, and continues to be, a successful sector, and the vocational education committees and the vocational sector in general have not taken enough credit for it. Those of us who have been public representatives for quite a while are familiar with the work in each area and the importance of adult education. This is an area that does not, maybe by its nature, attract the type of publicity and recognition it should. Perhaps many of those participating in it do not want to know about their participation as such, but, having attended many presentations and graduations from these courses, I have been struck by how successful and important they are. I hope the IVEA is strong in ensuring that the smaller local authorities are not given unfair representation.

Ms Canning's presentation contained some striking sentences about the potential of the merger, which is important and very positive. She stated that a new entity, and not just a merger of existing old ones, was essential. She is stating clearly, if I understand it correctly, that the merger should not just result in the sum of both parts; there should be something more. That is an extremely important message to get out. We need to face the fact that there is duplication and there is the potential for better outcomes for students and trainees. I welcome that statement from Ms Canning.

The witnesses laid great emphasis on the need for a proper change management process. Although I welcome what the Minister is doing and support him, I disagree with some of the entities that have been proposed. We could all sit around a table and we would all come up with different proposed entities - in many instances, with equal merit - so we can leave that aside. Mr. Moriarty spoke about the difficulties of the merger between education and training entities, which is a huge project that will result in proper and due recognition for a new tier in education. When change is about to happen, it needs to be done as rapidly as possible, but it also needs to be done properly. There is always a danger that if proposed changes are put on the long finger - if target times are not met - it demoralises the people working within the sector. This is a major project and the structures need to be got right from the word go. Equally, there is a major need for time-related targets to be met, because the worst thing that could happen is for the morale of people within the existing organisations to be sapped. One thing on which we need clarification is the status of the sub-offices that have been announced. Will they live only as long as the Croke Park agreement? Speaking to VEC staff - both administrative and teaching staff - I hear that they are all anxious for absolute clarity from the start, as far as is practical.

I welcome the presentations by the three organisations and I am sure the committee will want to work with all of them, because we all have an interest in ensuring that we get the structures right.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Nicky McFadden)

Would the witnesses mind if we took three more questions?

Deputy John Lyons

I apologise for the slight delay in my arrival, although I got to hear all of Ms Canning's presentation. There were a couple of points in it that I would like to discuss. I commend her for acknowledging and highlighting that we are more than an economy. We are a society, although sometimes that gets overlooked, for obvious reasons. I can understand that because we do have a major unemployment problem at the moment, and any future education and training plans, particularly in the short to medium term, need to have employment activation measures as their top priority. However, there should be a balance. Often we do not hear enough about the fact that we are a society, so I welcome that comment.

There are a couple of things I want to ask Ms Canning. She mentioned in her presentation that the design of programmes, systematic reviews and so on should not all be from the point of view of industry. Could she elaborate a little on what she means by designing programmes? How much of a consultation process is she talking about? One of the failings, at times, of the previous set-up, which was made up of what will now be the new local education and training boards, was that there was a question mark over how far it went in consulting with and addressing the needs of industry in order to have a direct match of skills with what was being provided through education and training. Everybody was aware of the fact that in previous times, some courses were run which had not been updated for a long time. In fact, we are teaching things such as the European computer driving licence, ECDL, in schools when we really should be teaching students how to make something like the ECDL. I come from an education background - I am a secondary school teacher - so I have a major interest in this.

One question on which I would especially appreciate a response is about the consultation process. How do the witnesses envisage meeting the needs of industry? Do they go to the IBMs and Dells of this world, ask them their needs and then build some of their courses based on that? Ms Canning mentioned systematic reviews. How often would these take place for courses? The reality is that the needs of industry change, sometimes on a daily basis. This was brought to the attention of our Oireachtas committee recently by another group.

Ms Geraldine Canning

Even though I was the person who made the presentation, I am sure the others around the table will be well able to answer the Deputy.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Nicky McFadden)

Do you mind if I take the last two questions?

Ms Geraldine Canning

Not at all.

Deputy John Lyons

Sorry. I was on a roll there.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O’Connor

There are three areas I would like to address. I am delighted to hear the witnesses say the system is learner-driven rather than supplier-driven. When a student presents himself or herself to the AEOA, how does it help that student to choose a career path or direction of progression? How does it make sure the student is being looked after? I am sure the organisations are well able to deal with the merger of SOLAS, FÁS and the VECs, but I am concerned that we ensure the students presenting will get the best options.

Two of the speakers mentioned primary education. I would like them to say more about that. I would particularly like to hear about boards of management or the education and training boards. How do they see that working? Is it much the same as what we see in west Dublin, where there is no board of management, or do they envisage a board of management?

My third question is about the composition of the education and training boards. I have been on a VEC myself. I am a little concerned because I do not see any student representatives on the board. I see ten local authority representatives, and I heard what my colleague beside me said, but I think we should move on. We have had so much talk about State boards and how people get onto them - do they present CVs? Is their appointment an open and transparent process? How do the witnesses envisage the selection of the ten local authority representatives? Will whoever has the majority on the county council get the most local representatives on the VEC, as in the past, or does the delegation envisage looking for curriculum vitae and perhaps choosing the best-qualified county councillor for the post? I am keen to learn a little more about it.

I am concerned at the make-up of each of the proposed education and training boards and the total number of 18 members. It is proposed that there would be ten local authority representatives, two parent representatives, two staff representatives and four community representatives. The majority would be county council or local authority representatives. We have a chance for a new beginning now. Perhaps we should examine this because in my experience there were shortcomings in the make-up of the boards of management and I believe now is a chance to change that. Will the delegation members offer a comment?

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I welcome the delegates. Some people talk a great deal about structures and whether the structures reflect all the geographical and other interests but in this case my primary interest is in values. Structures do not create values; values come first. There is a strong tradition or set of values and attributes among the VECs and these are the primary things we should build on. We should build the structures around these values. Unless these values are animating the structures then we have lost an era of education and we have truncated what the VECs stood for.

In one way it is the end of an era but it is also the beginning of another era and we should incorporate all that was good from before. There has been a great deal of good and this is an opportunity to restate the strengths, attributes and characteristics, including inclusivity and accessibility. No child was ever turned away from the gate of a VEC school. The democratic structures, responsiveness and the broad curriculum were all features. One could go into one room where metal work was being taught and enter another where music was being taught. The curriculum has been selected from our broader culture, it has not been not put together in a selective way. The most important thing is not so much the structure, but whether there will be a transmission of values from the old structure to the new structure. One can change structures but if one loses values in the process sometimes they are gone forever.

It is interesting that the Minister is discussing a new era of curriculum development and evaluation in terms of finding ways to assess students' work. The VECs were doing this 30 years ago and the City of Dublin VEC and Trinity College carried out work in the area of curriculum development, cross-moderation and in-house assessment. Sometimes it is a question of catching up on the past rather than reinventing things. It is an exciting and challenging time but it is also a time of great opportunity in the field of education. So many of our institutions have crumbled in recent decades but the VECs have risen above all of it and held on to their integrity, by and large. This integrity has animated the work the VECs carry out.

The new dynamic further education has brought to adult learning and learning for older teenagers is striking as is the way education, training and employability have straddled the same continuum almost in an unbroken way. This is an exciting notion and the further education colleges have done this successfully. The idea of bringing training into that ambit enriches training and the presence of training enriches education because they are two sides of the one coin. Rather than send people off in different directions with education here and training there the person should be the focus and the person needs all of this focus rather than one half of the self to be addressed with education and the other part to be designated under training.

One challenge this new configuration should embrace relates to the arts in education. The primary school curriculum has an exciting book or set of statements about the five groups including the visual arts, dance, drama, mime and music. These comprise the most exciting reading in education at any level in the country but they are not translated into practice in the classroom. Arts education is taught in a haphazard way for a variety of reasons, including resources and so on. It is strange that when every second Minister and everyone else go abroad, they are forever talking about the arts and culture but the seed-bed is almost full of weeds. It is not nurtured and cultivated in the minds, souls and hearts of young people although we try to catch up later on. I am keen for the new structures to determine in what practical ways we could remedy this deficit, gap and haphazard presentation of the arts and how it could be corrected. I offer an example from Ballyfermot, the area with which I am most familiar. Kylemore College, a second level college, has taken a practical approach to the provision of music in local schools. The delegation may have heard of St. Ultan's national school, one of the schools in which this project has taken root. Often the children there go to school with a schoolbag in one hand and a violin case in the other.

The VECs have the competence, history, tradition and structures to seriously address the deficit and lack of provision in the whole area of the arts in education and I am keen for the committee to examine the issue to determine how we can address it. There are several ways to address it but the VECs have the competence and status to step in to the breach and highlight the areas that have been neglected for too long. This should be added to the roll of honour of the VECs.

Mr. Michael Moriarty

First, I will range over the contributions, comments and questions from all Deputies and then I will ask my colleagues to supplement my comments if I forget certain areas. Deputy Crowe mentioned the size of the committee and Deputy Mitchell O'Connor referred to this as well. I will treat the questions separately because they are coming from different sides. I am keen on having a community voice on the committee. Let us consider the average county committee at the moment. It may have nine members from the local authority and two or three public representatives from town councils, a significant number. However, let us consider a committee made up from two or three counties. It is proposed that such a committee be made up of ten representatives.

I have never been a local authority member or involved in politics like those on the committee. They must seek a mandate from the community - I would not have the courage to do it - but this gives representatives at local authority level or national level certain credence and a certain capacity to represent the voice of the community because that is the nature of the role.

In any board or organisation, the healthiest structure is one where there is a balance between the executive and reserve sides. This balance is of benefit to both sides. The voice of a local community would be considerably diminished in a ten person board. In light of costs and other things we have proposed a modest increase in the number but because of the times we live in we are prepared to accept the reality. Nevertheless, we believe there should be greater representation from each group.

The gender issue is relevant. There is almost a mathematical equation at the moment which has proved embarrassingly difficult to manage in certain cases where one gender was not represented on a local authority. People had to be frogmarched in with their arms twisted behind their backs to create gender balance according to a very precise definition in the current legislation. It was farcical. We support the idea of gender representation from both genders.

There are opportunities for the Traveller community and ethnic groups in a large community. Very specific guidelines have to be issued in respect of the last community groups to be co-opted. I like the idea and we proposed that the core committee, comprising parents, staff and public representatives, would meet and there would be defined guidelines for inviting specified groups, to be determined by the Minister, to apply to be represented on the board. Such people would be co-opted because the committee would be the best judge of the best mix of groups, whether from the community or other educational or ethnic groups. It is important such a change happens. It is not currently happening. Local authorities select groups, a policy which has not been successful.

Deputy Smith talked about smaller communities in Roscommon. We stated in our submission that under section 11(2) the number of members elected should not be elected solely on the basis of population size. Smaller counties have representation and should not be swamped by larger counties. At the moment only one VEC, County Dublin, has 12 local authority members. It is made up of 2.5 local authorities. Our figure is based on that model which is provided for in the 2001 Vocational Educational Act. I am not sure what the breakdown of members is. Smaller groups should not be forgotten.

A Deputy mentioned avoiding duplication and getting better leverage from outcomes. We all have to look at outcomes. We are not here to serve ourselves but our communities, students and clients of all our services and we should not forget that. My fear is an efficiency auditor would be thrilled with how efficient it is, but we are talking about people and values, to which Deputy Conaghan referred. We are a people led organisation and education boards are in place to serve the needs of people. They are the important things which we should not forget.

We are more than an economy. As Deputy Lyons said, we are a society. It is very well put and rings very true with us. The State made a huge mistake in the consultative process in 2001 in terms of the integration of bodies such as VECs into the education and training board. Town VECs were integrated with their respective counties but we never integrated people, we just threw them into an entity together. To this day there are residual issues. We need to invest in bringing people together, creating a common understanding, having shared values, understanding the shared objectives and building a team spirit. There will be a dysfunctional organisation if people are not working together in harmony. It is money well spent in any organisation.

Deputy Mitchell O'Connor mentioned career paths, which my colleagues will discuss. We have an adult guidance service with which my colleagues are much more familiar than I am. She mentioned community national schools. Like her, I am a former primary teacher and was a primary school principal for eight years. I have supported and promoted the community and national school model for a long time because I saw things from both perspectives as she did.

The community national school model tries to provide for diversity under one roof. When we talk about people of different ethnic origins, cultures and religions, sometimes we forget people who want to have religious education or instruction in schools. They also have rights. Community national schools are trying to provide for religious instruction for ethnic or religious communities under one roof. It is an ambitious target. The five community national schools currently in existence are working on developing that programme.

Such schools are managed by a designated retired inspector representing the Minister. There would be a board of management, as proposed in previous legislation, but the proposal has not moved forward. We would like to see a board of management representing the main partners in community national schools as soon as possible.

As the committee knows, a patronage forum is addressing the issue and will make recommendations. I and my colleagues, with other bodies, made presentations last week on that. It is worthwhile forum under chairperson John Coolahan.

On composition and who elects representatives, the local authority acts as a group to elect people. The heads of the Bill refer to "people". Previously the legislation stated people would be elected from within local authority members but not many people have recognised the reference to "people", which means that local authorities could elect anybody they wished to. It may take some time for the culture to develop but the possibility is there.

I have never been a member of the local authority but they have a mandate from local communities. We want people with an interest in or experience or knowledge of education or training to become involved. The board provides not just spiritual leadership, but oversight. The more expertise the better and I look forward to change happening. It is something we have sought for a long time.

I will ask my colleagues to discuss curriculum development because I have not taught in a vocational school. I understand the cultures of schools and structures do not create values. No matter what the situation, people have to live by a set of values as an individual or corporate entity. We are very proud that we do not have restrictive selection in our schools. We are open to all and have very democratic structures. We try to have an enrolment policy which is accepting of all in the community, irrespective of creed or background.

Arts and culture are important and any of us who have been teachers or involved in a school or board of management understand school is about more than formal education. It involves the enrichment of the lives of individuals and creating rounded individuals. Deputy Smith has attended some of our annual conferences and would have seen some of the orchestras from local schools and communities. The development of school orchestras and cultural groups have been unbelievable. Such development and nurturing of culture is an important part of education. I will ask my colleagues to expand that point.

Mr. George O’Callaghan

To add to the comments of Mr. Moriarty on the development of the new structures, a great job of work needs to be done in trying to bring the existing VECs together into a new structure and entity. It involves bringing the values and the best of what currently exists within the VEC structure into creating a new culture, in terms of education and training. It will be a major challenge for CEOs designated to the new entities and the staff in coming together.

Deputy Smith mentioned sub-offices. There will no room in many of the new designated headquarters for all of the staff of the existing VECs. Therefore, the sub-offices will play a role well into the future in terms of administrative support for the new entities. There is a significant challenge for us all in the years ahead in developing the new structures and creating additionality, rather than merely having a merged amalgam of the existing VECs.

Several members referred to the make-up of the committees. I am not greatly concerned about the number of local authorities versus the number of staff versus the number of parents. Everybody will bring their own experiences to the table. We no longer talk about representatives on the committees; rather, we talk about people. Everybody's commitment and contribution will be valued in that context. It is not a matter of numbers or the numerical balance but the contribution people make and the commitment they bring to the new entities. That will be the most important element. As Mr. Moriarty said, the core committee co-opting the community representatives or the community part of the committee onto itself will represent a change from the existing situation.

In regard to student representation, even in the existing structures under the 2001 Act there have been examples of that. In County Clare VEC, for example, we have had a student representative on the committee representing second level students. That will be an important element. We are already talking about student representatives on the further education side by way of the four community representatives provided for in the new numerical structures of the new entities.

Ms Geraldine Canning

The contributions of Deputies Lyons and Conaghan could be blended together. When we talk about programme design, we recognise that arts and culture have become paramount in our society. Everybody wants a bit of Irishness, whether in the form of the pint, hurling, song and dance or something else. When we design programmes in our areas we are conscious of the food industry and tourism. We pride ourselves on our connections to the community and we like to build forward. As somebody who worked in Singapore for several years, I recall that when that country suffered a downturn the authority turned to the arts in education. That brought marvellous fruits.

When the Deputy mentioned Ballyfermot, I assumed he was going to talk about Ballyfermot College of Further Education and how several of its wonderful graduates have received Oscar nominations. We are very proud that such people are coming out of the VEC sector. Dare I say that the sector has spearheaded the arts in comparison with any other schools. We have post-leaving certificate courses in performing arts, music technology, sound engineering and so on. This goes to the core of who we are and who we want to be. We design and develop our programmes around the learner. In terms of delivery, we develop significant partnerships, whether internally within our VEC structure or externally with our partners. When we identify the needs of the community we design and build the programmes around that before establishing partnerships. In developing core generic skills and partnering them with vocational skills, our priority is to identify and facilitate learners' needs.

My colleague, Ms Hamilton, may wish to comment on the design process.

Ms Mary Hamilton

Like my colleague, I tied together Deputy Lyons's range of questions, regarding design and currency of programmes and connecting with changing skill needs, with Deputy Mitchell O'Connor's question on how we maintain learner centredness. There is no point in claiming that everybody who works in the VEC sector is out there in industry keeping up to date with its needs. What is required is a reliable structure at national level, which is probably already there in terms of Forfás and so on. However, we also need a corresponding structure at local level which is about all of the partners coming together to consider skills needs and feeding into the education and training system at all levels. Once that is in place, one can then consider how to maintain the currency of programmes.

New procedures are in place for the development of programmes and their approval by Qualifications and Quality Assurance Ireland, QQAI, which will replace FETAC, HETAC and the other awarding bodies. How those programmes are written will determine their potential in terms of the capacity to tailor and update them to meet the needs of a range of different groups. However, if they are written in the manner of straitjackets - like an ECDL programme, which is written in the language of today - they will be outdated next month or next year. Instead, they must be written in a way that will meet the needs of learners in a rural community or urban community or a group of Travellers or prisoners, for example. Teachers will then, in consultation with those learners, be able to design a curriculum that satisfies the programme requirements while also meeting the needs of learners.

Ms Fiona Harley

I was struck by the fact that all of the members referred to the centrality of learners. Deputy Conaghan referred to the student being the focus of learning. Deputy Crowe gave us credit for having pioneered adult and community education. We thank him for that recognition. Deputy Mitchell O'Connor argued that training should be learner driven and focused on employment. This focus on the learner resonates with me.

I recently attended a presentation of certificates at our adult learning centre in Bray. Such occasions serve as a stark reminder of the particular value system that is so strong and inherent in the VECs. At this particular presentation, one of the adult learners, who was being awarded her level 3 FETAC certificate, was asked to make a speech. She simply said that what she had learned above all from her course was that there is no such thing as a stupid question. That was an incredibly deep observation and no more was needed. She received a tremendous round of applause. That reminds us of our values. I am confident that in going forward into the new entities we will bring with us our commitment to placing the learner at the centre and having regard to the social inclusion agenda.

Deputy Lyons mentioned the importance of our consultation and in-course design. Ms Hamilton and Ms Canning have outlined the new processes in regard to the QQAI. Deputy Lyons is correct that we have not adequately consulted nationally with industry in terms of developing courses. Our skills analyses and identification of skills needs will be far more on target if we engage appropriately with industry. The fast-tracked information technology has been missing. As Ms Hamilton said, we are sometimes so involved at local level in what we are doing that we may neglect to be open to that additionality. In terms of the new education and training boards and working with Solas, we must have a focus not only on the education side but also the training side.

In terms of the curriculum development unit, CDU, we referred to the importance of the QQAI. The VECs stand on their track record in this regard. I have been involved in the CDU for many years and we have been doing that type of work. The more things change, the more they stay the same The VECs can be confident that we will be responsive to new forms of curriculum development.

I am struck by the references to arts and culture, integration, mutual respect of difference, and local and national entities in partnership. The opportunity to engage in music education partnerships was mentioned. It is a great challenge for us to work with local authorities. I know several VECs which have already been successful in their application, and several more are hoping to be successful in round two.

In terms of the process of mergers, it would be foolish to minimise the problems inherent in that. In regard to sub-offices, Deputy Smith referred to the demoralisation of staff and the need for mergers to be effected more quickly and with support services. We need to know what we are doing and we must have a timeframe for implementation. It must be articulated what is expected of us. I am a member of County Wicklow VEC, which is being merged with County Kildare VEC. We are looking forward to the merger but the reality is that we have excellent staff in both bodies. It is essential that those sub-offices do not fall into some type of backwater. They must become meaningful and be responsible for meaningful tasks.

As mentioned, this is enabling legislation. As stated by Mr. Moriarty, we could, under this legislation, provide the incredible support services we currently offer to all our service strands, in terms of HR, ICT, finance and education, to other education providers in the community. This is about additionality in terms of what the new local education and training boards, LETBs, can offer.

Deputy Crowe asked about our opinion in terms of representation and Deputy Mitchell O'Connor raised the issue of there being too many local authorities. I pay tribute to and commend the representatives with whom I worked on the County Wicklow Vocational Education Committee. Their professionalism and commitment is second to none. Mr. Moriarty referred to the importance of balance between executive and reserve functions. I cannot speak highly enough of people's commitment to us, which I am sure is the reason we are a VEC of such good standing. I commend and thank them for that.

Mr. Pat Kilbane

The IVEA is willing to embrace this change. It is a mammoth task in an ever-changing educational environment. We are particularly positive in our approach on behalf of the sector and student cohort. This work must be undertaken in every community, covering a huge geographic terrain. The need for extended representation was mentioned. The area with which I am most familiar, Mayo, is being merged with Sligo and Leitrim. Mayo has not on too many occasions been involved in all-Ireland finals. However, I was always conscious that when I reached Ballaghaderreen I was half way to Dublin but still in County Mayo. The entire terrain of Sligo and Leitrim, up to the Cavan and Donegal borders, is to be merged with Mayo. I give an undertaking that the IVEA will, in co-operation with others, do its utmost to ensure that maximum benefit accrues from the education and training boards, ETBs, to the cohort of learners we are proud to serve.

Acting Chairman: (Deputy Nicky McFadden)

I thank the three organisations for attending today's meeting and for their excellent contributions. Our next meeting will take place on 7 December at which the first draft of our report will be discussed before referral to the Minister.

The select sub-committee adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 7 December 2011.