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SELECT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION (Select Sub-Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation) díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 25 Jan 2012

Protection of Employees (Temporary Agency Work) Bill 2011: Discussion with National Recruitment Federation, IBEC and ICTU

I welcome everyone to the meeting and we are grateful that the delegation could facilitate us at short notice. Today we have with us Mr. Colin Donnery, president, National Recruitment Federation, Mr. Brendan McGinty, IBEC, and Ms Patricia King, ICTU. I call on Mr. Donnery, Mr. McGinty and Ms King to speak, in that order, and I ask each of them to introduce their colleagues before making their presentation.

I draw the witnesses' attention to fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. However, if witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Colin Donnery

I thank the Chairman and Deputies. As president of the National Recruitment Federation I thank the select sub-committee for allowing my organisation an opportunity to outline the concerns our industry has with the Protection of Employees (Temporary Agency Work) Bill 2011, probably the most important legislation to affect our industry since 1971. I present Mr. Richard Eardley, committee member and treasurer, and Mr. Frank Collins, policy spokesman, who will make our presentation.

Mr. Frank Collins

I thank the Chairman and committee members for giving us this opportunity. This Bill will have the greatest impact on us since the Employment Agency Act in 1971. We are passionate about our industry and we are also passionate about making sure the Bill to regulate us is fit for purpose. I want to describe the industry before addressing the Bill because many people do not know about it. Some 40,000 people work as temporary agency workers in Ireland in every sector except defence and education. The main reason employers and organisations use agency workers is flexibility. Where someone is sick for a day or two, on holidays, on maternity leave and in covering for seasonal peaks and troughs in workloads, employers use agency workers. It is quick, and employers can contact an agency and get the right person. The agency looks after the person, pays him or her and looks after entitlements. Agency workers are also protected by almost all items of employment law. Many people assume there is no protection for agency workers but they are covered by the same measures regarding unfair dismissal, statutory redundancy and the Organisation of Working Time Act. This legislation applies equally to agency workers as to normally employed workers.

Regarding pay scales, on average agency workers get paid the same as the average industrial wage. We have agency workers on the national minimum wage to agency workers on more than €150,000 a year. We cover doctors, nurses, pilots, architects and IT workers down to shop workers and industrial workers. In addition to the 40,000 working in the industry, some 3,000 staff are permanently employed as a recruitment consultants and in payroll administration, dealing with clients and looking after the agency workers. Some 2,000 people per year will get permanent employment with the client from temporary work. The movement from temporary to permanent is typical although the figure is down from boom-time levels. We expect it to improve once again.

The current level of 40,000 is an increase of 14% on the previous year. In most countries, the improvement in temporary agency work is the starting point of an improvement in economies. We have seen that in our industry. The industry has over €1 billion in turnover, predominantly the wages of temporary agency workers. We are passionate about getting people employment. We represent employment, which is why we are here.

We welcome any legislation that will improve the industry and the life and opportunities for anyone working in the industry. However, the Bill has a number of flaws that will make life more difficult rather than improving matters. It will damage the industry and damage the prospects and opportunities for agency workers.

The Bill provides for retrospective implementation, allowing equality of pay to apply from 5 December 2011. The difficulty we have is that the Bill does not require the employer, the end user, to tell the agencies-----

A telephone is causing interference.

Mr. Frank Collins

It does not require the employers to tell the agencies the rate of pay from 5 December. We are in limbo because we are liable for paying the correct rate from 5 December but we have no way of knowing the correct rate. If retrospective implementation is included, it must be balanced so that we can comply with the law in an effective way.

They spent a long time in Europe trying to come up with this directive but the EU directive allows for the terms of conditions to be at least those that would apply if the temporary worker had been directly recruited by the end user. The directive refers to what the temporary worker would be paid if recruited directly by the end user. However, the Bill does not state. It provides that the temporary worker should be paid the same as the basic working conditions of the comparable employee. This may seem a pedantic point but it has major implications. We recently spoke to a Senator about his personal assistant, who worked for him for over 25 years. That person had moved up a pay scale based on 25 years experience. In the Bill as it currently stands, if the Senator hired a temporary agency worker to cover his assistant going on holidays for two weeks, the rate of pay would not be what the person would receive if recruited directly but the same rate as a person who had been there for 25 years. That was not the intention of the directive but it is how the Bill is worded. In the event that there is not a comparable worker, one goes to the rate paid if recruited directly. It is a fundamental issue and will cause major problems for end users where they have multiple workers with lots of experience and a long length of service.

The Bill does not allow for length of service or experience to be taken into account. We suggest that one way to solve it is to revert to the wording of the directive, which ensures that the individual is paid what he or she would be paid if recruited directly by the end user. That allows for people to be taken on at new rates. The Government ensures that new people coming in are paid differently to existing employees. It will also allow an employer replacing someone with lots of experience to apply the rate of pay as if the temporary worker was being hired directly.

There is a problem with telephones. We must turn off telephones because they are causing problems. It will spoil the recording.

Mr. Frank Collins

The next aspect concerns liability. Under the Bill the agency is liable for anything that is wrong and any penalties. The problem is that agencies only know the rate of pay or terms and conditions if they are told by the end user. If the end user does not tell agencies or tells agencies the wrong rate, the agencies are liable in court and must pay out. Then, the agencies must get the money out of the end users if they told the agencies the wrong rate. That is very unfair. There should be joint liability, which is what happens in the UK.

If people are paid the wrong rate, they need redress. The person liable should be the person whose fault it is that the temporary worker is being paid the wrong rate. It should not automatically be the employment agency. In the UK, large users of agency work put pressure on agencies to take the hit on a commercial basis. We ask that the Bill allows for joint liability. If the agency can prove that it was innocent, the case should be taken against the end user. It should not be taken automatically against the agency.

Every Bill on employment should allow for penalisation and redress where someone has been harmed. However, the wording of the redress section does not take into account how an agency works. The nature of an agency is that people look for someone for a temporary period. The assignment will come to an end after the need has ceased. Using the example of the Senator who needs a temporary worker while his personal assistant is on holiday, under the current provisions of the Bill if we send in an agency worker and the agency worker threatens to take a case for discrimination one day before the personal assistant is due to return and the assignment comes to an end, the agency cannot cease the person's contract. The current wording is that if we terminate an assignment or change location or rate of pay, it is deemed to be penalisation. The person need only threaten to take a case and we cannot cease the contract. Even if we were to get a person a job with another Senator who wants him or her to start half an hour early, that is a change in hours of work and we would be automatically guilty of an offence. We ask that the Bill be amended to ensure that when the mere operation of agency work comes to an end we can get people to work in a different location and that is not automatically deemed to be penalisation.

If the Bill's provisions are implemented correctly they will not only save jobs - a number of end users have ceased or announced they will cease work - and may even create them. If implemented incorrectly, this legislation will cost jobs in the economy. I thank the committee.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

On behalf of IBEC, we appreciate the opportunity to make a presentation to the select sub-committee on our principal issues of concern arising from Bill. I am joined by my colleagues Mr. Loughlin Deegan, solicitor and senior employment policy adviser, Ms Rhona Murphy, head of employment law services, and Ms Avril McDermott, head of our HR and social policy committee and HR director with Hewlett-Packard in Ireland.

From IBEC's analysis it is clear to us that the Bill contains a number of very serious deficiencies. There is an urgent need for considerable amendment as it proceeds through the Oireachtas in order to preserve the viability of agency work in the Irish economy. The National Recruitment Federation has described some of the characteristics in terms of the importance of agency work. There is a misnomer that this is a narrow issue which only impacts a small number of sectors. It impacts across the economy, regardless of whether one is in the services sector, manufacturing or further afield. In particular, this is a huge issue of concern to the multinational exporting sector on which much of our forecast recovery is dependent. It sees this issue as a key barometer of labour market flexibility. As we know, companies use agency staff for a variety of reasons, but the primary reason is flexibility. They need to be able to flex their numbers according to business demands and to meet production surges when they arise. The key barometer is that they are retaining a degree of flexibility around their staffing requirements as a means of maintaining competitiveness and their wider jobs complement.

In terms of the directive, we welcome the fact that, within its makeup and formulation, it formally recognises that temporary agency work has to reflect the undertakings' need for flexibility as well as the employees' need to reconcile working and private life. The directive was not intended to render temporary agency work unviable, which is our concern. The Oireachtas, as the sub-committee would appreciate, over many years has provided temporary agency workers with equal statutory rights to those of direct recruits, something acknowledged by Mr. Collins.

In the appendix to our principal submission, we list all the various statutes that are applicable in that regard. At the current time of national crisis, it is important that we retain a flexible agency work regime, principally to support employment opportunities in the economy. If it becomes so heavily regulated as to become unviable the net effect will not better the conditions of agency workers but render unemployed people who do not need to be.

The Bill goes much further than is required by the directive and will have the effect of rendering agency work unviable. That effect would be felt not only by the thousands of agency workers but will also have an effect on dampening direct recruitment. This is an issue that plays in the international space, in terms not only of our troika commitments and reputation for retaining a flexible labour market regime, but also plays into the positioning of Ireland by the IDA and others with potential investors about what it is like to operate in Ireland in terms of our flexibility and labour market response. Firms need to know they can flex their workforce up and down, using agency work as needed. If agency work is rendered unviable, clearly it does impact on the decisions firms will make on these sort of issues.

I will summarise some of the main issues. In our detailed submission we laid out, in a fair amount of detail, some of the technical issues. One of the principal issues that is of huge concern is that relative to how other countries have moved to transpose the directive, this Bill will place us at a competitive disadvantage, not least relative to the UK, our nearest neighbours.

As the sub-committee knows, we have engaged with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions about the potential of a national framework agreement to agree derogation from the terms of the directive. It was not willing to agree to the introduction of a qualifying period for coverage under the Bill. In the UK agency workers must be in a placement for 12 weeks before they are covered. In Ireland coverage under the terms of the Bill will apply from the first day of assignment. That means employers will not want to take on short-term agency workers because the increased cost, bureaucracy, paperwork and risk of litigation that will potentially arise under the Bill will have a discouraging effect.

Another key issue we believe deserves the most thorough examination by the Oireachtas and sub-committee is an extraordinary provision contained in the Bill, which is unprecedented in the framing of Irish employment law. The Bill purports to have retrospective effect to 5 December 2011, which raises some serious constitutional questions. It creates an incredible situation where employment agencies have an obligation to make back payments to some agency workers based on wages paid by hire companies to direct recruits. Those agencies have no way of knowing how much the payments will be. That regime is fundamentally at odds with basic constitutional principles and may expose the Bill to a constitutional challenge by an injured party. That is in nobody's interest. There is no European legal justification for a retrospective effect. There are serious questions to be asked relative to the protections that are otherwise afforded under Article 29.4.10 of the Constitution.

The Bill also contains a number of key drafting issues which need to be remedied on Committee Stage. The most serious relates to the question of who an agency worker can claim equal pay against. Principally, this relates to who the comparator might be. As drafted, the Bill is not limited to allowing an agency worker to claim equal pay against a comparable direct recruit who joined the hire company on the same day as an agency worker. That would be right and proper and in accordance with the directive. The Bill appears to allow an agency worker to ignore the comparator who started on the same day and instead gain equal pay with a direct recruit who has ten years of service and may be at the top of the pay scale. The causal effect of the Bill, as laid out, is that agency workers could be put in a better position than if they were hired directly, which is bizarre and clearly not the intention of the directive. That provision needs to be amended urgently because it will simply make agency work completely unviable and lead, in many cases, to prolonged litigation and uncertainty for all parties involved.

A key element is work of equal value and is a concept that should be removed from the definition of "comparable employee." For example and for comparative purposes, that definition is not used in the UK. We have prepared a fairly detailed list of changes that are required to try to render this Bill fit for purpose. We believe that if the Oireachtas and the Government do not accept the proposals we are making, there is a serious risk thousands of jobs could be lost to the Irish economy because agency work will be unviable.

Various numbers have been proposed in terms of the scale of impact in this regard. We know that prior to 5 December there were up to 40,000 agency workers in Ireland. We believe the uncertainty this legislation creates raises fundamental questions over the viability of those jobs. For example, comparative analysis of the numbers in the UK shows that about 24% of the jobs of temporary agency workers in the UK were immediately at risk, and, on a like-for-like basis, that straightforwardly computes to approximately 8,000 jobs in a Republic of Ireland context.

To summarise the key issues for us, we are proposing, first, to remove the proposed retrospective effect from section 1 of the Bill. We believe that is a fundamental mistake and raises fundamental constitutional issues that need to be considered very seriously by this committee. We believe the issue could be readily addressed and the alternative is to provide for its application in terms of the principle of equal treatment to all of those who commence an assignment from 5 December on. The effect would be that, on a rolling basis, given the nature of temporary agency work, the vast majority of people would come under coverage within a relatively short period.

Second, we strongly advocate the view that the provisions of section 6 regarding the principle of equal treatment need to be radically restructured to ensure that agency workers are entitled to the same basic and working conditions as if they had been hired as a direct recruit at the time of their assignment, and also to avoid a situation where they can use an appropriate comparator such as that they are better off than a comparable direct recruit would have been who might have been hired some years previously.

Third, we believe, from a fairness and equity point of view, there is a compelling case to be made to allow reasonable defences for employers, including to allow employers to demonstrate that there were grounds other than a person's status as an agency worker which justify a difference in basic working and employment conditions. Fourth, we believe the provision of outwork of equal value needs to be removed from the definition of a comparable employee, which arises in section 2(5). There are a number of refinements to definitions in the Bill that we believe require serious review to exclude unintended application, particularly to limited liability contractors, managed service contractors and outsourced contracts because the current definitions leave some grey areas open as to the definition of what ultimately constitutes an agency for the purposes of this Bill. As it is currently drafted, section 15 actually alters the current definitional arrangements that are in place.

We are also concerned that the redress mechanisms need to be rendered fairer to all concerned. For example, there is a punitive provision in our mind that somebody could potentially be at risk of an award of up to two years remuneration even in circumstances where there has been a very minor or administrative breach. We strongly advocate that, other than in respect of pay issues, compensation should be limited to four weeks rather than the current provisions that are set out.

We have set out a detailed position on all of these matters as well as other matters of significance. With the indulgence of the Chairman, I would ask that my colleague, Ms Avril McDermott who is chair of our HR and social policy committee and who has direct experience of this issue from a Hewlett Packard perspective, would briefly indicate from a multinational perspective in general terms what are the principal concerns in that community.

Ms Avril McDermott

To echo some of the points made by Mr. McGinty, much of this reflects from an international perspective around our reputation as an employing country where we have the flexibility to be able to attract jobs to Ireland. In many of the multinationals, we have been particularly successful at this. While I know there is some cynicism about multinationals coming to Ireland and then leaving, multinationals have by and large stayed here and have, through their own efforts, been able to attract additional roles into Ireland. That is built on a reputation of having a flexible environment in which to operate.

If one likes, this is as much around reputation to attract jobs as well as being able to retain them. We are all agreed that given the economic situation we are in, it would be in all our interests to ensure we are demonstrating, as a nation, that we can have and have a flexible work environment that will retain and attract new investment. That has been our experience and I know it has been the experience in many of the multinationals.

It cannot be said enough that whatever happens in Ireland, be it a minor or a major change, it is reported across the world. The CEOs of some of the major companies are all the time reviewing where they invest across the world. Although there are many challenges ahead, we have done a good job to date to position Ireland as being a higher value addition to many of these corporations. In that space, we need to be able to demonstrate that we still have the flexibility to do that.

Much of what Mr. McGinty has covered concerns the detail of what we do not believe the Bill was intended to do. The request today is for a review of that by the committee to see what we can do to make the Bill more pragmatic in regard to future jobs in Ireland.

Ms Patricia King

We have made a comprehensive submission, although it is not my intention to go into the full detail within the time allowed. As members know, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions is the representative body for workers and their unions on the island of Ireland, covering 52 affiliated trade unions. We welcome the transposition of the EU directive and we do that from the set date, namely, 6 December. However, we feel the Bill as produced has a number of deficiencies in regard to the transposition of both the spirit and the content of the directive. I will refer to a number of those for the attention of the committee. The substantive arguments are made in our submission.

First, we feel the definition of pay in the Bill is quite restrictive and that it should include matters in regard to termination payments, pension entitlements and so on. It should cover remuneration, so it would not be the case that a temporary agency person would be confined to basic pay and perhaps denied some of the other bonuses that might be applicable. The Bill should be more definitive to cover this off so we are not creating inequality in that section.

With regard to the comparator, a number of sections have caused concern for us. We believe the Bill may provide reason for people to either misunderstand or misuse it in regard to the comparator. The Bill should be amended so this could be clarified. There is the actual comparator and also the hypothetical comparator in a case where there is not a person in an organisation who can be said to be a direct comparator. We have asked, in consultation with the officials in the Department, that they consider an amendment to provide further clarity in this regard so people know precisely who the comparator is and on what basis. We would hate to get into a situation such as happened in the past, particularly in equality legislation, whereby cases fell on the basis of "partial comparator". If one did not fit the full bill one did not get the entitlement as a worker. We think there should be basic working end employment conditions to which an agency worker is entitled and these should be equal to those that would apply if they were directly recruited by the undertaking. We think this should be clear in the Bill.

I move to one of the issues that, from our point of view, is negative. It has been commonly called the "Swedish derogation". In our view it is quite regressive. Its provisions could seek to undermine entirely the equal treatment section in the Bill. This is where paragraph 5(3) of the directive seeks to allow an agency to employ an employee - if I may put it in simple terms - on a permanent basis. The workers are permanently working for the agency. The agency can supply them to a hirer and when they are thus supplied they are not entitled to equal treatment under this ruling. They go in, do their work and come back to the agency after the assignment because they are a permanent worker of that agency. Under this Bill, that agency is only expected to pay them 50% of the rate they had received in the undertaking prior to their coming back to the agency.

However, if one takes it that the hiring employer did not have to pay the workers equal pay - or equal to that of comparators in the job - that means they could be receiving a very low rate of pay. They then come back to the agency as permanent workers and the agency is expected to pay them only 50% of that rate. A whole section is being opened up which will allow the abuse of these people from day one.

This will definitively change the pattern in this State of how agency workers are utilised, hired and so on. There is no doubt about that - here lies a big section and a big avenue. In addition, depending on the contract the permanent workers have with it, the employment agency could let them go and could expect to pay them only 50% of their entitlement in regard to their termination. From our point of view, that is derogatory and needs to be addressed.

One can look at what has happened in other states. This has become known as the Swedish derogation because of its operation in Sweden. However, in that country 80% of the rate of pay is paid whereas 50% is provided for in this legislation. I am well aware of what applies in the UK, which is less, but I am not sure that we should link ourselves to the bottom rung rather than go for something that is decent.

The other point I would make regarding this section is that it seeks to undermine the whole spirit and content of the Bill, which is about providing equal pay. I would refer the committee to the guidance provided by the specialist committee set up by the EU when this directive was being put together. In paragraph 6 on page 23 of its advice, that specialist group stated, and I hope I quote it correctly, that the Swedish directive should be quite restrictive in its use. The group identified the downsides and stated that the directive should only be used in the most restricted way. If one puts this into a piece of legislation can one imagine it would be used in a restrictive way? I do not think so. We urgently and earnestly ask the Members of the House to consider tabling amendments to this section.

In regard to the definition of basic working conditions, we believe they should be defined and should not be capped at the minimum legislative level, meaning the worker gets the minimum holiday provisions and so on. One might be working directly with a comparator in an organisation, doing the same work and receiving the same basic pay but the comparator has 24 days holidays, for example. We say one should be entitled not only to have the basic entitlement of what is in the legislation, the minimum, but the comparisons should be equal all the way along. From our point of view, therefore, there are a number of sections in the Bill that cause concern, but the Swedish case is huge.

The Bill is deficient in regard to workers' rights and entitlements to seek to have redress. People should be able to make a complaint to the nearest labour inspectorate, which should be able to take it on. There is also an issue about who is the employer. We do not believe the liability is clear in the Bill and believe this will cause a degree of concern. In the past, in the absence of a directive or a precise piece of legislation, I can tell members that those of us who work on the front line went in and out of third party situations very often. Questions arise as to who is responsible and so on. As it currently stands, the user is only responsible in regard to unfair dismissal, with the agency, on the other side, being responsible for most other areas. We need to have clarity and need to have it in a place where the worker has a right and entitlement to basic knowledge of that entitlement. If one is an agency worker assigned to an organisation how can one know what are the conditions of pay? There should be a provision in the Bill which states that information should be given to that worker as to what precisely is paid in that organisation in order that the worker can know what equal treatment actually means and can be aware he or she is receiving it. From our point of view, those amendments should be made.

Let me deal also with a point that is worth making. Here today, and also in other commentary, there has been much mention of the very serious matter of the legislation being the cause of strengthening unemployment figures in this country. This has been said repeatedly. There is a level of the fear factor being employed in order to frighten the you-know-what out of people, with claims that if they take this on they will end up in a place where they will cause people to be unemployed. Not one shred of evidence has been produced by anybody to that effect.

My judgment is there will be a change in the pattern of agency employment. Agency workers are a feature of the labour market in this State. However, just as there was an illustration at the top end of the scale in Hewlett Packard, allow me to give an illustration from the lower end of the scale, one from a large distribution centre in this city. I give it because I dealt with it personally, going in and out as an official. The company had, and has, a large number of HGV drivers. It decided to take itself off to an eastern European country to seek out workers who would come over here and work. It became very clear there was a two-workforce element going on. We went in with our normal collective bargaining and negotiations and had several discussions with the employer. On one occasion, a conversation came up as to what the agency workers were being paid for driving the heavy goods vehicles. It is very clear work. One gets into the HGV and drives the load, taking it to place X and one then comes back.

Effectively, the employer admitted employing the agency people. We asked how much he paid them. The going rate, from our point of view, was €19 an hour if the drivers did long hauls, in other words, if they drove overnight. That applied to the permanent employees. The employer told us at first that the rate was €13 an hour for the agency workers. Eventually, when we did more research we found out the rate was €11 an hour. Ten or 12 people were living in a room in the inner city and the employer had something to do with providing same. We then found out, hey presto, the employer actually owned the agency.

That is an illustration of bad behaviour. The employer was coming to discussions and telling us the reason he had to pay €11 an hour and could not pay €19 was because he had to pay the agency fee. However, when we went looking we found the agency in question. I will not describe exactly where it is in the city but I went to the place myself and I know exactly where it is. The employer was pocketing the profit and doing the whole lot. That is a real live example of the worst form of behaviour where agencies were being used to produce this sort of stuff. Those agency workers, working in that place, which is now a big outfit, were not allowed to go into the canteen, had to wear different high-visibility vests and were second-class people. ICTU campaigned very strongly for this temporary agency directive. We went to Europe and lobbied everywhere we could because that is downright bad behaviour. Regardless of where workers come from, they should not be treated like that. If I get no other message across, I wish to get across the piece about the Swedish derogation. Our view is there is an avenue for that behaviour to be repeated again, which would be tragic.

I have some observations rather than questions. This has been a very informative session. I am disappointed that more members of the committee did not attend today. The whole economy has changed in recent years and the key word that keeps cropping up is "flexibility". However, I am very disappointed that Ms King did not once use that word in her presentation because there is a major change in the dynamic of the economy here. Earlier when discussing the Croke Park agreement we were saying that people are moving about because there is more flexibility within the Civil Service.

I wrote a note when listening to IBEC's presentation earlier. There are bad apples on both the employers' and the workers' side, and it is very difficult to legislate for that. We need to be on our guard all the time. When the legislation is implemented, we will need to have people in place to check the regulations, ensure the agencies are following the provisions of the legislation and that workers are giving in return for what they getting. One of the things we have fallen down on in recent years is that we have not gone in. A typical case is that of Priory Hall where inspections were not carried out and many people have suffered the consequences.

We are considering what amendments might be added and we are talking to the Minister directly in that regard. Positive ideas for the legislation have come from both sides who have presented to us today. The legislation, as drafted, needs to be adapted to take on board some of those ideas. Some people would argue that we should incorporate parts of what is in the British legislation and others will argue those parts are not good. There are good models throughout Europe and we should take bits and pieces that suit our circumstances. I need to read up more on this matter, which will come before the committee in a few weeks.

It will be next week - provisionally on 2 February.

We will definitely have an input into that. I thank the IBEC delegation for appearing before the committee. It has been very informative for me to listen to them. I did some work beforehand because I know of some recruitment agencies and also workers who are working, particularly, in low end jobs in meat processing plants. They form a major part of the economy that has changed so much in recent years and will continue to do so in coming years.

Ms Patricia King

I have not previously met Deputy Lawlor and I want to say this to him about flexibility. I am sure he has not yet had an opportunity to read the substantive submission ICTU has given the committee but I am sure he will be pleased that it is riddled with the word "flexibility". Every day of every week-----

Sometimes we only get an opportunity to read the executive summary.

Ms Patricia King

I want to put the Deputy's mind at ease regarding my use or non-use of the word "flexibility". Every day of every week as part of our work in representing workers, and in leading and organising workers which is what I do for a living, we know that there are very few workers in the State who are not pushed to the pin of their collar for maximum levels of flexibility and in many cases for less pay or benefit. The Deputy is correct that the clock is being turned back substantially. Those people stand between saying "What can we do to stand up and fight to resist this?" and "What can we do to protect our jobs?" Very few workers in the State, public or private, commercial semi-State or otherwise are not faced regularly with thinking about that decision going at home at night. I would not feel good leaving this meeting if the Deputy were to believe that we have swum around in some world that did not deal with those everyday realities. Our job is to represent the best interests of those people in the most flexible and adult way we can for the best results for all. If the company is gone, it is no use to anybody and if the people are being walked on, it is no use to anybody either. We are in there and that is the job we do. I would hope that gives the Deputy some comfort on my understanding of flexibility.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

I thank the Chairman and thank Deputy Lawlor for his remarks. I appreciate this is a very difficult challenge to members of this committee as legislators. Ultimately in framing the law the worst thing they could do would be to frame it only having a mind to the worst possible behaviour. Nobody sitting at this table - whether it is the NRF, IBEC or indeed the Irish Congress of Trade Unions - is for a moment suggesting we would defend poor or terrible behaviour regardless of where it is. However, we need to get a balance and acknowledge that hundreds of decent employers are running good businesses, trying to survive in the current environment. Since the European Union introduced this directive, the world has changed and this economy has collapsed. Regarding how we regulate our labour market, members of the committee have the opportunity to introduce a legislative regime for the regulation of temporary agency work that renders it fit for purpose in the current and foreseeable environment.

Just as Ms King has outlined some of her experiences, we are also talking to companies, including a food processing company that is unionised and well regarded. It is trying to make its way in the export market and if this legislation is introduced as it is framed, overnight it will have a €1 million increase in its payroll. Depending on the nature of the contract it enters with the agency, another company with approximately 200 temporary agency workers may face an increase of up to €5 million. Regardless of whether we like it, this has a direct impact on decisions to be made about future contracts and the nature of work that comes into this country. The other piece that is not captured in any of the analysis of this is the opportunity cost. We all tend to focus on the implication for jobs in the here and now. Nobody is really looking at the implication of how this will apply to jobs that will not come to Ireland as a result of the decisions we are making.

The select committee should spend some time on the issue to fully appreciate the genesis of this because the wording of the directive was very deliberate about the notion of basic working and employment conditions. The directive contains no declared intention to apply the principle of equal treatment in respect of terms or conditions of employment that are typically associated with rewarding long-term service that might apply where an employer has direct hires. We believe issues such as bonus payments, which would typically be associated with direct-hire regimes, should be excluded.

Ms King referred to the Swedish derogation as being regressive. To be blunt about it, it is one of the few aspects of the Bill that has the potential to provide some flexibility following commercial negotiations between agencies, agency workers and hirers to put in place arrangements that properly respect rights and entitlements based on the notion of a permanent agency worker. However, it does not come as some sort of hospital pass - this comes with a price on it and a commitment that needs to be made by the three parties concerned. If that provides some opportunity for flexibility in how this is implemented then we should grab that with both hands. We need to be careful with some of the rhetoric on these issues. They are about real jobs and real businesses in the services sector, including many in the domestic services sector that are currently on their knees. I make one plea to the select committee, which is to consider this from the point of view of the least damage that can be done to the environment businesses and workers are facing in trying to sustain the maximum number of jobs, including temporary agency work.

Mr. Colin Donnery

I wish to comment on Ms King's assertion that there is not a shred of evidence of job losses. This morning we handed up some letters from recruitment agencies around the country where we have seen up to 400 job losses already without the legislation having been implemented. For example, each year Amazon in Cork hires 500 temporary agency workers for three months for the Christmas market on much higher rates than the basic wage. One third of those workers are taken on directly on a permanent basis in January. As the Bill stands, those temporary agency workers will not be hired. Amazon has a plant in Wales and under the UK 12-week derogation it will be much easier for it to locate those jobs in Wales. It does not want to do that and would prefer to carry on in the current format.

Mr. John Douglas

The purpose of the directive and the Bill is equality and non-discrimination. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions believes that the so-called Swedish derogation creates such a loophole that it could render the whole agency Bill useless and ineffective, and it is important that we deal with it. Using the analogy of equal pay between men and women, the Swedish derogation allows women to be employed by agencies and then to be paid less than men, which is not acceptable. It is not acceptable on a gender or religious basis and it should not be acceptable based on being an agency worker or an end-user worker. The core issue is equality and it is not possible to derogate equality away on any issue.

Mandate is a union operating predominantly in the retail sector. In many cases the word "flexibility" is a cover for exploitation, precarious working employment conditions, low pay and no workers' rights. Last week the University of Limerick published a paper on rates of pay and conditions of employment in the low-paid sector. More than 330,000 workers in Ireland earn less than €10.86 an hour. We have created flexibility, but at a great cost. The State is picking up the cheque for family income supplement and other supplementary welfare benefits. This committee needs to strike a balance between what sort of economy it wants and what sort of society it wants. I do not think it is clear. It can have all the flexibility it likes and all the derogations it likes, but at the end of the day it is creating a mass underclass of people with very few ties to the economy in terms of employment or affinity with their society. We have a vast underclass with 330,000 earning less than €10.86 an hour, which is unacceptable.

These types of derogations will lead to further insecurity and precarious work. I urge members of the committee to log onto a global union webpage covering the service sector, uniglobalunion.org. It contains a report which refers to insecure and precarious working. Throughout Europe it is a race to the bottom and we are nearly at the head of that race. It must be dealt with and this is not the time.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

I wish to deal with the issue of an underclass. We need to face realities. Mr. Douglas does not talk about the horrendous story of unemployment and the many thousands of people who, I can only imagine, would love to get their hands on temporary agency work if they had the opportunity. If this is not handled in the right way we run the risk of writing temporary agency work out of the script of labour market regulation and denying those people at least the opportunity that affords. That should be a fundamental guiding principle of this committee and the Oireachtas as a whole.

A plea has been made about the Swedish derogation. I know the committee will review this matter properly in a balanced way. However, the principle around this is already provided for in Recital No. 15 of the directive, which spells out the concept and simply states:

Employment contracts of an indefinite duration are the general form of employment relationship. In the case of workers who have a permanent contract with their temporary-work agency, and in view of the special protection such a contract offers, provision should be made to permit exemptions from the rules applicable in the user undertaking.

That absolutely mandates a provision for derogation from the general application of terms associated with equal treatment that would otherwise apply in the situation where there is a permanent agency worker. We do not see why we should not avail of that opportunity to try to hold on to the resemblance of flexibility as this form of work might actually afford opportunities to people who are otherwise crying out for employment opportunities.

The delegations are very welcome but I apologise to them and those in the public Gallery. The committee met for almost four hours this morning. We are the fit ones who have the staying power - perhaps the others went for an early lunch. There was quite a demanding 3.5-hour meeting this morning. Normally many more people would be here.

Flexibility is a buzzword and very fashionable. Sometimes what is described as flexibility for one person can be someone else's burden. I know Deputy Lawlor referred to it, but we need to guard against that. What constitutes flexibility on the one hand can be quite punishing for another person. We have heard much about the Swedish model. In what other countries does this work? I believe there is a place for agency workers, but not at the cost of diminished rights or of some of the suggestions made here today. People work more productively when they feel they are being treated with full respect. In general, in what other European countries does this work and does everybody get something from it? Are there such examples?

I thank Mr. Brendan McGinty, Mr. Frank Collins, Mr. John Douglas, Ms Avril McDermott and Ms Patricia King and their officials for their contributions. We have a massive amount of information before us for consideration and we will be very busy digesting it over the next couple of days and trying to come up with a balance and a common sense approach to the issue. Each speaker today has made valid points and it is our duty to analyse these and try to bring about the best possible scenario for employers and employees. That will not be easy. Many of the proposals put forward by the NRF and IBEC overlap, particularly with regard to the retrospective aspect. This committee needs to look closely at this because any retrospective implications create massive uncertainty. Retrospection is a direction I would prefer we do not take.

Dealing with this will require significant work. My approach will be to use my experience both as an employee and as an employer to do what I feel is right. I am sure other members of the committee will do the same. I thank all those who have contributed. We will do our best to do what is right overall.

I thank the three groups for coming here today. IBEC has said that this Bill could create doom and gloom and job losses. I was a benefactor of the equal pay legislation in 1979 and we were told something similar then. We were told the world would come crashing around our ears because women would take men's jobs. That was not the case. Where people have money to spend, they will spend it and industry will benefit from that, which will open up more avenues. We should look at all areas to ensure that people are paid properly for work of equal value, because then people will spend money in the economy. This is positive legislation and I welcome it.

I have a question for Ms King on the issue of retrospection to 5 December. What impact does she think this will have? The various groups raised a question with regard to who the employer is with regard to a person's contract, conditions and pay and to whether it is the agency or the hiring company. Who do they think it should be? What would they consider the best direction to take on that and who should take the key role with regard to improving pay and conditions of workers? This sort of flexibility was introduced during the Celtic tiger days, mainly driven by employers, but it is important now, during recession, that workers are protected to a point where they can challenge any attempt to cut their wages, pay or conditions. I agree with many of the points put forward by ICTU, but the United Left Alliance is also looking at other areas.

We have only a few minutes left so I will turn to each group for answers to questions and some wrap-up comments. They may also contact us with information over the next few days.

Mr. Frank Collins

With regard to the question of the Swedish derogation and whether there are other examples, as far as I am aware there are two countries that have some form of the Swedish derogation. One of these is Sweden, which is where the name came from, and the other is the Netherlands, but theirs is a slightly different version, where the agency worker must be employed for 18 months with the agency before getting the entitlement to further work. In most other countries in Europe, the derogation is not being used. It was included in the directive to allow for the particular examples in those two countries where they are using it. The other countries do not use it in any great way. There has never been a requirement for it in Ireland. Given that the agency is required to abide by the minimum wage anyway, I do not see that it will be an issue. One would have to charge such a high rate to the client while the worker was working there to give one the money to pay the agency worker while not on assignment that it would make it economically unviable. We do not have a great issue with it as we do not see it as something that will be used in Ireland. However, the directive allows for it, so we feel if it allows for it, the least the Irish legislation should do is allow for it also.

Mr. Brendan McGinty

What this discussion is about is trying to find a pathway through this. We accept the Oireachtas must legislate for this, but this is not about applying principles in a way that is fair and reasonable to all concerned and of balancing the issue of employment rights on the one hand and ensuring, on the other, that we do not abandon or threaten the viability of agency work as a viable means by which people can access employment or as a means employers can use to support their legitimate business objectives.

There are lessons to be learned from how other countries have transposed the directive and perhaps we could engage separately on that. To our mind, we are taking a more punitive approach to the Swedish derogation than applies, for example, in the United Kingdom. On the issue of who the employer is, the Bill articulates in section 2(4) that the employer is ultimately the person liable to pay the wages of an individual. That person is deemed to be the employer for the purpose of agency arrangements. The employment agency will normally be deemed to be the employer, but the exception - which is a new departure - at section 23(2) makes it clear that the hire company is deemed to be the employer for the purposes of some of the other provisions of the legislation, including access to direct employment opportunities and collective facilities.

Ms Patricia King

Deputy Conaghan asked in what other countries this operated. In terms of the Swedish derogation, in Sweden, Germany and the Netherlands, the rate is between 80% and 90%. In Norway, as we speak, the implementation of this directive is causing huge concern and there is major rejection of it by several groups. There is difficulty with it there. Deputy Griffin commented but does not seem to require an answer to any particular question. Deputy Joan Collins asked about retrospection to 5 December. I understand that while the legislation for transposition is within the remit of Government, that date was set by the European Union. I am not sure what discretion there is in that regard.

With regard to responsibility, our view is that there should be joint and several responsibility with regard to employment to avoid confusion whereby the worker might fall on the wrong side. The final point regarding the experience in Britain is that even at this early stage - we collaborate with our colleagues in the TUC regularly - there are strong signs of the Swedish derogation causing exploitation in the low-paid areas. That is the fact of what is now developing in the UK as a result of it.

It was good to meet the delegates from IBEC, the National Recruitment Federation and ICTU and I thank them for their presentations. Committee Stage of the Protection of Employees (Temporary Agency Work) Bill 2011 is scheduled to be taken on Thursday, 2 February. We may engage with the delegates separately as it is very clear from our discussion that changes must be made to the Bill. The committee will work on that and report back to the delegates.

I propose to send a copy of the presentations to the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, and his officials.

The select sub-committee adjourned at 1.25 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 2 February 2012.
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