I welcome the Minister and his officials. I propose to call the Minister to make his opening statement which will be followed by statements from the Opposition spokespersons.
Estimates for Public Services, 1999.
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána (Supplementary).
The Supplementary Estimate being sought for 1999 is for £15 million. The original 1999 net Estimate for the Garda Vote for this year was £580.297 million and until very recently it appeared that this would suffice. It only became apparent in recent weeks that there might be an overrun on the Vote. The overrun will not be very large, approximately 2.5% at most. Nevertheless, it is prudent to make provision for it.
Before going into detail on the Supplementary Estimate, it would be appropriate to make some general comments on progress this year. As always there have been ups and downs. However, 1999 has to go on record as yet another good year as far as the overall crime and security situations are concerned.
Of most note is the historic progress made in the context of the Northern Ireland peace process. The Good Friday Agreement came into effect last week following an exchange of ratifications marked by the signing ceremony on Thursday, 2 December. Ministers from all political persuasions took office in Northern Ireland and the Provisional IRA has nominated a representative to enter discussions with the International Independent Commission on Decommissioning. The prospect for a permanent end to the conflict in Northern Ireland has never looked so hopeful. While we must proceed with caution, I hope that a peace dividend will gradually manifest itself and some of the Garda energies formerly expended on combating problems arising from the Northern Ireland situation can be refocused on other challenges.
As for ordinary crime, the provision of the proper resources to the Garda Síochána continues to contribute to a downward trend in crime. Crime fell by 6% in 1998 and, while we do not yet have final statistics, all indications are that the crime figures for 1999 will be even lower. The number of indictable offences has fallen back to the levels encountered in the mid-1980s. In essence, since the Government entered office, the real incidence of serious crime in this country has fallen between 20% to 25%. Judged by any standards this is an unparalleled and spectacular success. Over the next two and a half years we will continue to build on this success in order to maintain our pledge to the Irish people to make our towns, cities, villages and communities safer.
The recently published CSO quarterly household survey confirms our grounds for optimism - more than 90% of people stating they feel safe in their homes at night and 65% of people considering that the Garda Síochána does a good job controlling crime in neighbourhoods. The survey confirms what was already known, that certain types of crime are underreported. The indication is that the underreporting applies mainly to relatively minor offences. The level of underreporting is less than that found in other jurisdictions. There is nothing in the CSO survey to call into question the downward trend indicated by Garda crime statistics. We would also all argue that in order to fully assess the results of this survey, it will be necessary to await further such surveys. At that point we will then be in a position to make valid comparisons.
However, we cannot be complacent. My anti-crime strategies and policies are multidimensional. For example, in terms of dealing with the incidence of crime, I have persuaded the Government of the vital need for additional prison spaces with the result that the prison system is being regenerated on a scale hitherto unknown. At the same time, I have put in place a code of criminal law which is essential for gardaí to do their job effectively. The other major priority of my anti-crime policy is to tackle the causes of crime. In doing this, I am conscious that any long-term anti-crime policy must engage local communities in co-operation with the Garda Síochána. I have also given a high priority to ensuring that everything possible is done to deter young people at risk from becoming involved in crime.
Since entering office I have increased the number of Garda youth diversion programmes from 12 to 29, five of which have been established with the assistance of European Social Fund moneys. These projects aim, through intervention, prevention and community and multiagency co-operation, to divert young people from becoming involved in crime. The long-term objective is to enable the target group - ten to 18 year olds - to integrate into the labour force in a systematic manner and to prevent them becoming unemployable. The expansion of the youth diversion scheme in 1999 was one of the factors which has contributed to the need for a Supplementary Estimate.
I am pleased that there is a commitment in the national development plan to provide additional funding of £16 million for crime prevention measures and youth services over the life of the plan, 2000 to 2006. This will provide for the establishment of a number of additional Garda youth diversion projects in urban and rural areas under the Garda youth diversion programme which aims, through both intervention and prevention, to divert young people from becoming involved in criminal activity. My Department is currently putting in place appropriate structures to facilitate the establishment of these projects in accordance with the terms of the plan.
I turn now to the details of the Supplementary Estimate which is being introduced to cater for a net increase in expenditure of £15 million and I will briefly go through the various subheads to explain the increases. I will start with those subheads which are effectively demand led.
Subhead l deals with compensation and covers both the Garda compensation scheme and payments that have to be made on the basis of civil claims against the Garda Síochána. In both cases, the amount to be paid out is primarily determined by the courts. Total payments for 1999 will be in the region of £7.2 million for the Garda compensation scheme and £3.6 million for other claims. This represents a total overrun of £4.2 million. There was a backlog of Garda compensation claims built up in the period 1996-97 because cases were deferred awaiting judgment in the Merrigan case. This backlog is still being cleared.
Subhead H covers witness expenses and the amount to be paid is effectively determined by the number of trials and the circumstances of the witnesses. I do not have full statistics for 1999, but there are an increasing number of trials involving expert witnesses and bringing witnesses in from abroad. This has resulted in an overrun of £450,000.
Subheads A3 and A8 cover incidental expenses and station services. The overruns for cleaning stations - £500,000 - medical - £300,000 - and road traffic expenses - £250,000. All arise from a higher level of activity than anticipated in the original Estimates.
Expenditure on youth diversion schemes increased by a figure of £450,000. Unlike the other items referred to, this is not a demand-led item. As I explained earlier, one of my priorities is crime prevention and these schemes are aimed at diverting youths from a career of crime. I am determined to extend the scheme and I was able to start the process this year by availing of moneys from the European Social Fund. Next year, I anticipate an even larger increase in expenditure, going from this year's outturn of £1.3 million to £4 million which represents a 300% increase.
Subhead D covers transport and there will be an overrun of £2.3 million on this subhead. Most of this is going on the purchase of additional vehicles for the Garda Síochána. It is vital for operational, safety and efficiency reasons that the Garda fleet is kept up to date and is well resourced. In particular, extra resources are needed to cover the millennium period.
The last subhead, A1, covers salaries, wages and allowances and an additional £12 million is being sought. Provision was made in the 1999 Estimates for payments due to gardaí under the general round and under the local bargaining clause of Partnership 2000. However, the results of the adjudication award, which was made in August, was not known at the time the Estimates were drawn and no provision was included for that award. As Deputies will be aware, an offer has been made to the Garda Representative Association which has been endorsed by its executive and put to the members to ballot. If the pay offer is accepted, it will fall to be paid in this financial year. As a prudent financial measure, therefore, I am seeking sufficient funds to cover its payment this year rather than be faced with the prospect of potential delays in payment and a liability carrying over into the year 2000.
While the overruns on the individual subheads referred to above amount to £20.5 million, the net Supplementary Estimate being sought is £15 million. This is because there are savings on three other subheads. The outturn for subhead A5 - computers - is expected to be £20.8 million rather than £22.8 million, a saving of £2 million. the outturn for Subhead E - communications equipment - is expected to be £7.1 million rather than £10.1 million, a saving of £3 million. Subhead A9 - Garda SMI - is expected to be £500,000 rather than £1 million, a saving of £500,000. The savings on these three subheads combined amount to £5.5 million, requiring a net Supplementary Estimate of £15 million.
I would like to go through one or two of the subheads in considerable detail. I do not have a formal statement prepared as I only got the Supplementary Estimate yesterday evening.
The Minister said the Supplementary Estimate represents a 2.5% increase or £15 million, which is substantial. I appreciate there was a difficulty in determining the issue of Garda pay. We still do not know what will happen, but I hope the award will be accepted. A £15 million shortfall is not derisory. I do not understand how it was not possible to hazard a guess about the likely requirement, given the Garda pay issue.
The Minister said the CSO module does not call into question his performance or that of the various agencies of the criminal justice system. However, there is a huge disparity in the module. We asked for it to be included in the quarterly household survey because the survey has proved to be accurate in terms of determining socio-economic patterns based on accurate statistics and data and it has enabled Governments and Departments to make accurate plans based on such information.
The Minister said it does not call into question the Government's success in dealing with serious crime. However, that was not its intention. Its intention was to deal with theft, burglaries and other ordinary crimes. Sexual assaults were excluded from it and we are aware of the dramatic increase in such assaults.
We will adjourn now and resume after the division in the Dáil.
Sitting suspended at 11.53 a.m. and resumed at 12.10 p.m.
The Minister laid emphasis on the fact that, despite the Central Statistics Office crime module figures published recently which showed that a considerable amount of crime is not reported and that there is a disparity between the official Garda figures and the CSO figures, this does not call into question his contention that serious crime figures are falling. The CSO module was never intended to determine the level of serious crime. It was to determine the level of less serious crime experienced by individuals and to establish people's feelings on crime, and it did that accurately. Excluded from the survey were sexual assaults, rape, and murder. We are dealing with lesser categories of crime and it was shown that there was a considerable shortfall, gap, divergence or disparity between the Garda figures for 1998 and the CSO figures determined over a three month period. We need to cross-reference both sets of figures to see where the actual, valid and real figure lies.
There is something seriously wrong when a considerable number of people, when assessed in the comfort of their homes, voluntarily admit that, while a crime has been committed against them, they do not think it worth their while to report it. We need to examine that in further detail and not just dismiss it as a statistic. There is a reason for it and we need to determine why people do not have confidence in the system to make a formal report. We also need to examine if another element is involved, which is the underrecording as well as the underreporting of crime. Is every complaint brought to a Garda station recorded and does it show up in official statistics? My information is that there is an element - I do not know how great - of underrecording of crime in certain Garda divisions.
Regarding the Minister's argument that serious crime figures are decreasing, perhaps he should look at the figures for domestic violence, rape and sexual assault. Perhaps he should also examine a figure published recently of the number of people who died in violent circumstances in the 11 months so far this year. Some 48 died in violent circumstances and of those, 24 died in Dublin. Violence in the taking of life seems to be becoming the norm. The spiral of violence that we thought was on the decrease is on the increase again. Some 48 people, 24 of them in Dublin, who were alive this time last year, enjoying life and looking forward to the new millennium will not see it because someone took a gun or a knife or used some form of physical violence and decided they had a right to end the lives of each of those 48 people.
Regarding the Minister's argument about the decrease in serious crime, he should take note of the previous five weeks. I was in Edinburgh last week and spoke to the Deputy Chief Constable. There was one armed bank raid in the city last year. In the past five weeks in Dublin there have been four successful armed raids. There was one in Dublin Airport, where raiders in two BMWs drove up at 5 a.m., reversed into the glass wall which is part of the bank and within two minutes and 40 seconds escaped with their haul. There was a bank raid in Finglas where the £25,000 stolen was recovered because of the novel development of a dye in the security box system.
There was a kidnapping of a bank manager and her husband from their home in Booterstown three weeks ago when their home was broken into, they were held captive and they were brought at 5 a.m. to the American Express offices in Nassau Street, which is less than 500 yards from where we are sitting. The manager was forced to open the safe and £500,000 in different denominations of currencies was taken while her husband was driven around the streets and told that if he reported the matter to the Garda his wife would be harmed. The people who committed this crime are still at large. Last weekend another £250,000 was stolen from the AIB branch in Ballyfermot where the raiders forced open a bank window, entered the bank and escaped with £250,000. On each occasion guns were used.
There has been a dramatic increase in the number of armed raids and robberies, not only in the city, for which I gave glaring examples——
The Deputy is straying.
I am not. The Minister strayed considerably when making his points about the reduction of crime and I am entitled to respond.
The Deputy is giving a detailed breakdown.
Yes, and that is a good thing. That is the reason committees exist, to give detailed breakdowns, rather than have debates guillotined in the House. The Minister raised the issue of prisons. There is no subhead for prisons, yet we had a considerable presentation from him on the performance of the Prisons Service.
I am amazed the Minister has not referred to the dramatic increase under the subhead of compensation. The estimate was £6 million but it turned out to be £10 million. That is a 40% shortfall. We are dealing with compensation for gardaí. What is the breakdown of the claims? How many of those are successful claims in respect of Garda deafness and how many have received deafness awards to date? How many of the claims relate to accidents involving members of the Garda in patrol cars? What is the number of assaults carried out on gardaí by virtue of which they lodged claims before the courts to have compensation paid? How many assaults were carried out by gardaí on members of the public and how many claims were made in respect of this? What is the percentage of that £10 million which is accounted for by way of legal costs? What is the number of cases which went to court? How many cases were settled out of court? These are pertinent figures because the £10 million is not just a global figure but also one comprising individual subheads and elements. We need to know before we are satisfied about the Estimate how this daunting figure of £10 million is accounted for.
There is an indication that there is a significant lack of reporting of domestic violence. One of the reasons is that there is not great confidence in the process and that successful cases will be taken. That relates to the issue of separate legal representation for victims. There is a minor change with regard to where previous sexual history is brought into the court case, but people who represent victims of domestic violence would strongly feel that the Minister should consider some legal person whose job would be to liaise directly with the victim so they are not treated as just another witness. This would not have to be a qualified barrister as that would involve constitutional difficulties, but there should be someone whose job it would be to liaise with the victim. Such a development would add to confidence in the process.
One of the most effective forms of crime prevention is putting gardaí on the beat, particularly at night. I will now turn to the detail of the Estimate. I am concerned at the significant increase in the figure for compensation compared with that originally estimated. Deputy Higgins asked all the detailed questions on the breakdown of that figure. The Minister referred to the Merrigan case, but can we have more information on how this case has affected the figures? Will the Minister also provide detail on the communications equipment, subhead E, and what exactly is covered under this subhead?
I wish to raise some points regarding reporting and underreporting. There is significant underreporting of cases involving sexual assault, rape and domestic violence. For example, this week the Minister of State, Deputy Mary Wallace, launched the Department's leaflets on domestic violence for health boards, and it emerged that only 20% of people who have been sexually assaulted or raped by relatives or friends report those incidents to the Garda. I welcome these leaflets which are very effective and will be of great assistance to women in that situation. However, the Rape Crisis Centre's annual report also noted that the number of cases it deals with are well above the number reported to the Garda. Many practitioners are suggesting that there is confusion over the different Acts dealing with this area and that there is a need for a consolidation Bill. Is the Minister considering such a Bill which would be very helpful to practitioners?
I also wish to raise the issue of sentencing. The large variation in sentencing in cases of sexual assault and rape is causing great concern. Consolidation or the bringing together of minimum and maximum sentences covered by existing legislation, quite apart from a minimum mandatory sentence, would help considerably. It is important that the Minister pays attention to this area to see if action can be taken in both areas. This would result in an increase in reporting rates, thus enabling the Garda to offer more effective help.
This week the Supreme Court made a decision on Army deafness compensation. Is the Minister satisfied with the way in which the compensation scheme operated by the Garda is working? I support Deputy Higgins's questions about the kind of cases appearing under this scheme. Given that an increase of £4 million is being sought in this Estimate, does the Minister feel that we will see an escalation in the number of cases? Would the Department support the establishment of a State claims agency as this is relevant to the State's ability to handle cases more effectively and improve co-ordination between Departments?
I mentioned prisons but I respectively submit that I did not tell Deputy Higgins how they were built. When the Deputy was discussing armed robberies he went into fine detail and described how they were carried out. However, that is an aside. Deputy Higgins has been chasing this hare up the field for a long time.
I did not let Deputy Higgins away with it so I ask you too to stick to the Estimate. We can cover those issues on other occasions.
While we are all concerned about crime, the indisputable fact is that there has been a decrease of 20% to 25% in indictable crime since the Government took office. I do not understand why Deputy Higgins will not accept that fact. We are all concerned about armed raids, particularly those referred to by Deputy Higgins which occurred within a short period. I agree with the Deputy, but these incidents are the subject of extensive Garda investigations. Crime prevention personnel are liaising with financial institutions and are able to provide information where necessary. Mobile beat and specialist patrols are paying particular attention to premises which may be the subject of this kind of crime, but for obvious reasons it is not possible or desirable for me to describe the initiatives in place to counteract such crimes.
Contrary to the picture painted by Deputy Higgins, there has been a strong and sustained decrease in the number of armed robberies and aggravated burglaries in recent years. The latest published Garda statistics for such offences indicate that there were 62% fewer armed crimes reported in 1998 than, for example, in 1994. The detection rate has improved from 27% to 40% over the same period. I am concerned about the increase in armed raids this year but the current level is still below the 1996 level, although that is no consolation to the victims of these activities. However, given the understandable and justifiable concern caused by armed crime, it is reassuring that in 1998 the Garda was very successful with regard to the seizure of firearms - 850 weapons were seized last year, up from 580 in 1997. Everyone will recognise that this is a major feature in reducing armed crime.
Deputies Higgins, O'Sullivan and Fitzgerald asked specific questions about the number of claims by the Garda. An estimated 460 claims are outstanding. Deputy Higgins was concerned about the breakdown of those figures.
Sorry, Minister, are you taking the Intoxicating Liquor Bill?
Yes.
It is being taken at the moment.
May we adjourn, Chairman? I cannot be here and in the House at the same time.
Will I put the Estimate? The Minister may give a written reply to the issues.
I will come back to the committee later, Chairman. I will proceed with this for moment and then give the replies. Thank you for bringing that to my attention, Deputy. It is obviously important. I will try to go as quickly as I can.
The estimated number of claims currently outstanding is 460. The breakdown is: physical injury, 171; non-physical injury, nine; property damage, 27; hearing loss, 77; and others, 176. The breakdown of claims by estimated value is: less than £5,000, 153; between £5,000 and £30,000, 261; and greater than £30,000, 46. The breakdown of claims by stage of litigation is: claims submitted but court proceedings not yet issued, 190; court proceedings issued but cases not yet listed for hearing, 257; and cases listed for hearing, 13. The breakdown by type of claimant is: member of staff, 179; and member of the public, 281. The number of payments made in civil actions in 1998 totalled £1,414,489 and in 1999 it was £1,326,723. The approximate number of payments in 1998 was 107 and in 1999 it was 86. The amount for actions which involved official vehicles was £1,792,759 in 1998 and £1,302,386 in 1999. The approximate number of payments in 1998 was 270 and in 1999 it was 158. The total payments made for 1998 totalled £3,207,248 and in 1999 it was £2,629,109. The number of outstanding claims in 1998 was 380 and in 1999 it was 425.
In regard to the hearing loss cases that were mentioned, since 1992 there has been a total of 91 Garda claims for hearing loss. So far 12 cases have been dealt with at an average cost of £26,500. The last case was settled for £12,500. I have little doubt that the costs will come down even further in the light of yesterday's Supreme Court judgment. The situation is in no way comparable to that of the Army, where there are over 10,000 claims, in comparison with which our 91 claims pale into insignificance.
Deputy O'Sullivan raised the issue of having more gardaí on the beat. We are engaged in a recruitment campaign at present to try to increase the number of gardaí in the force to 12,000. I hope this will result in more gardaí on the beat. I agree with the Deputy that that is one of the best deterrents. That is the objective.
There is a major difficulty in regard to legal representation for victims of crime, which was discussed in particular in relation to the oft repeated call for legal representation for victims of sexual offences. There is a view held by lawyers that providing a lawyer for the victim throughout the case will doubly prejudice the accused in that there will be a prosecution counsel and also a counsel for the victim. There would be double jeopardy in those circumstances for the accused. Therefore, when giving consideration to providing legal representation for victims of sexual offences, I had to confine myself to providing representation to such victims where the defence seeks to introduce their past sexual history within a trial. I will provide for representation for such victims in those circumstances, which will be at least some help. It is not as far as many people would like me to go. However, it is as far as I can go, given the parameters within which I must operate.
There are no proposals at present for a consolidation Bill for sexual offences. However, one of the most comprehensive sexual offences Bills in the history of the State is at a very advanced stage of preparation. I hope to bring this legislation before the Dáil early next year. It will provide for matters such as a register of sex offenders and will be of tremendous benefit to society. It will not be a consolidation Bill as such. However, it will deal with many of the outstanding issues which require to be addressed in the context of the discussion paper on sexual offences which I launched. There is nothing to prevent Deputy Fitzgerald or anybody else from continuing to make submissions in relation to the final draft of this legislation. I have always stated I would greatly welcome suggestions because this is too important an area for anybody to be narrow-minded in terms of its scope.
Deputy O'Sullivan asked about the Garda Laurence Merrigan case. In his judgment in the High Court, Mr. Justice Geoghegan held that the term "minor" was substantially less serious than what had been implied in the Carney judgment in the Magee case. He said the Minister should only refuse an application if there has been a complete recovery within a matter of weeks with no medical adverse secretae He went on to say that the Minister must consider the medical report from both sides and is not entitled to form an opinion that the injuries were of a minor character if the opposite view would be reasonably open on the medical evidence furnished by the applicant.
In practice, the Minister is advised by the Garda surgeon on the medical nature of injuries for which compensation applications have been made. In almost 90% of cases, the surgeon advises that the injury is minor. Arising from the Magee judgment, a number of applications were refused by the Minister on the basis that the injuries were minor, the Minister having been so advised by the surgeon. One of the first of such refusal cases was that of Garda Laurence Merrigan, who sought a judicial review of the Minister's decision. The case was not heard until December 1997 and the judgment was delivered on 28 January 1998.
Deputy Higgins made a point on the CSO quarterly household survey. The majority of people - 92% - stated they felt safe in their homes at night, which was an excellent return. The fact that 65% of people considered the Garda do a good or very good job in controlling crime in their neighbourhood was also a very good result. The percentage of households that were victims of certain crimes compared very favourably with the percentage in the latest British crime survey. For example, according to the surveys, 3.4% had been burgled in Ireland while 5.6% had been burgled in Britain; 1.6% in Ireland had experienced the theft of a car while the British figure was 2.1%; 4% in Ireland had experienced theft from a car while the figure in Britain was 10.2% and the figure for vandalism in Ireland was 4.8% while the British figure was 10.2%. I have no other survey to compare this one with as I do not believe it can be compared with grocery surveys and so on.
I note Deputy O'Sullivan's concern about underreporting of domestic violence. I have no doubt that is the case. It is a crime which is, more often than not, committed in private. There is no doubt that a considerable amount of fear is generated. We must ensure this silent crime is dealt with. In that context, I have included a provision for £500,000 in next year's Estimate towards the setting up of a helpline for victims of domestic violence. It is my sincere wish that people will use that helpline. It is a good advance which will make a difference. I cannot quantify the extent of that difference but it should result in increased reporting of this crime. I appeal to people to come forward in relation to these offences, which I would greatly welcome.
I was asked if I have any proposals in regard to the Garda Síochána compensation Acts. The committee which was established to review the operation of the scheme submitted its report in August 1997. The GRA was represented on the review committee and the association sought to have certain provisions and recommendations amended. The observations of the official side's GRA representative are now to hand and are being examined. I hope to be in a position to bring proposals to Government at an early stage in the new year.
Deputy Fitzgerald wondered whether I would be in favour of a State claims agency. I personally believe it is time we had such an agency and have no doubt but that the State is at a disadvantage in not having one. The State, for example, like insurance companies, might often be in a position to settle cases at a certain point rather than go on interminably, running up huge legal costs. The danger of this happening might be avoided or at least minimised if we had a State claims agency.
On salaries, wages and allowances for the Garda, the Minister will readily acknowledge that his goal is to increase the numbers in the force to 12,000 from the current 11,300. What is the projected level of intake into the force and when, on the basis of that projection, does the Minister anticipate that the 12,000 target will be reached?
The Minister provided a breakdown on the number of claims, their composition and so on. Is he concerned about the dramatic increase under the compensation subhead? The Estimate of £6 million increased substantially by more than 40% to over £10 million. There has been a huge increase in the number of claims. I accept that Garda deafness claims will fortunately never be on the same scale as Army deafness claims. However, when one sees the number of accidents involving patrol cars and the number of assault claims made against the Garda, it is obvious that we are faced with a serious problem. The big problem last year and in 1997 was prison and Garda overtime, and it was on those bases that the Estimate was drawn up. We now have the compensation phenomenon. Is the Minister concerned at the escalation in the number of claims?
Yes, I am concerned about the level of compensation claims. One of the principal difficulties involved here is that under the legislation only the courts can make awards. I have no control over the level of the awards. It is my intention to introduce certain proposals to Government in an attempt to deal with this matter. Those proposals will include the possibility of settling claims out of court. This comes back to the issue of what role might be played by a State claims agency. The increase under the compensation subhead is due to circumstances which are currently entirely beyond my control.
On the level of recruitment to the Garda Síochána, a commitment was made in the programme for Government and in the Fianna Fáil election manifesto that the number of gardaí would be increased to 12,000 during the lifetime of the Government. I am on target to achieve that by the year 2002. The intake is in the region of 500 each year. Retirements each year would be in the region of 300 so there is a net increase each year. I am satisfied that the target of 12,000 will be achieved.
We have covered subhead A1. Are there any questions on subheads A3 and A5?
As we are discussing the Department's Estimates, I want to return briefly to a general point I made earlier.
No, I must chair the meeting. Deputies' comments must be specific to the subheads.
The subhead relates to the provision of additional funding to deal more effectively with road traffic accidents and the role played by alcohol consumption.
We are dealing with the Estimates and there must be some order to the manner in which we conduct our business.
I believe it is quite appropriate to ask the Minister about the inconsistency——
The Deputy has already asked that question.
——of sentencing. The Minister did not reply to my earlier question. The Minister stated that he would introduce a new Bill which should make it clear to the courts——
I cannot allow the Deputy to proceed as her comments do not relate to the Estimates.
My point is a relevant one in that it relates to the provision of additional moneys for the justice area. It is reasonable to raise areas of concern. The public is concerned about the variation in sentencing levels.
It is reasonable to run the meeting in an orderly fashion.
Inconsistency within sentencing is a matter——
Particularly in regard to sexual offences.
——over which I have no control. We must accept that sentencing is a matter for judges.
Absolutely.
If one is unhappy with court sentencing procedures, legislation is the way to change that. One could decide to introduce minimum sentencing in respect of certain offences. The Legislature has the power to do that. There are serious difficulties associated with that because cases differ. A number of offences currently carry minimum sentences - capital murder carries a minimum sentence of 40 years and murder carries a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment. I also introduced the provision that those convicted of the trafficking of drugs with a street value of £10,000 or more are liable to a minimum sentence of ten years. The issue is a very broad one which would have to be considered by the Legislature. It is not for me, as Minister, to criticise the Judiciary. If Deputy Fitzgerald has concerns in regard to sentencing, specifically in relation to sexual offences, I suggest that she consider tabling amendments to the sexual offences legislation to which I referred earlier. We can then debate those amendments in the new year.
The reason I referred to the consolidation of sentencing is that practitioners tell me that there is confusion in this area because it is not always clear what charges should be made. I do not want the Minister to criticise the Judiciary but I want us to give a clearer message to judges and practitioners in this area.
The representative of the prosecution decides what charges will be brought. The new Bill will be very clear in respect of many matters referred to by Deputy Fitzgerald. I do not anticipate the introduction of mandatory sentencing. However, the Deputies are entitled to raise the issue which we can then discuss.
On subhead A3 relating to additional costs of £250,000 in respect of the Road Traffic Act dealing with doctors' expenses and so on, has it been brought to the Minister's attention that gardaí are beginning to encounter considerable difficulties in respect of co-operation from doctors? Examinations must be carried out within a specified timeframe etc. Are there any changes in procedures envisaged in relation to this subhead by virtue of the fact that this is becoming a big problem for gardaí when arresting and breathalising people? I am aware an experiment is being carried out in Dublin and Castlebar.
The IMO is at present in consultation with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform regarding fees for doctors attending stations in order to take samples. There is concern regarding this matter in some areas at present. Deputy Higgins will be pleased that the alcometer is being introduced in Castlebar. It is also welcome in Pearse Street in Dublin. The intention is to test the system and then introduce it throughout the country. This measures the alcohol level in the person's system by a breath sample and evidence can then be given in court of the level of alcohol in the person's system. The court will then be in a position to take this as evidence and proceed from there. It is a new and revolutionary system which I understand is most effective in other jurisdictions where it operates. This will obviate the necessity for doctors to take samples in many cases.
I welcome the system. During the testing period, is the sample being taken in parallel with running the device in order to cross-check the accuracy of both? From the point of view of the evidence standing up in court, does the Minister envisage considerable difficulties? In order to address these difficulties, will the Minister introduce legislation whereby the system will be legally foolproof in bringing about convictions?
I am not passing the buck but the legislation is a matter for the Minister for the Environment and Local Government. There will not be a necessity for samples where this test is available for the simple reason that it has been scientifically tested. I attended the launch and those introducing the system believe they can stand over the readings in court to the same degree as a doctor would be in a position to stand over his or her readings. It appears this is highly sophisticated equipment which can be relied upon. It has been tested again and again and the experts are satisfied, and will give evidence to this effect, if necessary, that the system is fair and the readings are correct.
I am aware it is in operation for just a few weeks but how many successful charges have there been so far? I wish the system well given that it has been proved successful elsewhere. However, I anticipate the first case will be challenged and we will then be involved in a legal wrangle.
I accept the probability of a challenge. There is always the probability of a challenge where one amends legislation dealing with the taking of samples in drink driving cases. In so far as I can recall, the legislation for this process has been in place for quite some time but the actual procedures and regulations were not available. The system has been in place only for a number of weeks and it is not possible to say how many people have been tested. I am fairly satisfied that no one has yet appeared in court but I am subject to correction on that matter.
Will any of the extra expenditure be used for an information campaign over the Christmas and millennium period in relation to drink driving? What is the status of these campaigns at present given that they were effective previously?
That would come under the remit of the Road Safety Authority. It was very prominent at the launch of the alcometer which I attended in a supportive capacity. It was launched by the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Molloy. The issue of advertising campaigns, education and so on is a matter for the Road Safety Authority. However, I am satisfied this matter is being treated extremely seriously and that the authority is doing its utmost to try to reduce the incidence of drink driving. It has been having some success. There is no doubt that over the Christmas period people will die and be badly maimed and injured on our roads as a result of drinking and driving. All we can hope is that it can be minimised to the lowest level possible. In this respect, the advice going out from everyone in this House is quite simple. The message has been repeated over and over again - if you drink, do not drive. People are not being asked not to enjoy themselves, but they are being asked not to drink and drive. The alcometer is the latest in a series of equipment which is becoming more sophisticated each day. As Members will be aware, the Garda has stepped up its checkpoints throughout the country and there are a considerable number of them. I listened to the Garda Commissioner issue a very blunt warning that anyone caught drinking and driving will suffer very severe penalties.
I would say to Deputy Fitzgerald that all we can do is make the plea, issue the warning, advise of the consequences and ask the question asked at the launch of the alcometer by the Road Safety Authority, "Do you want to see your father, mother, husband, wife, brother, sister, son or daughter maimed or killed on Irish roads this year?" Clearly the answer is "no". People can ensure this does not happen by not drinking and driving.
I fully support the Minister in relation to the very firm line being taken in order to wipe out the psychological attitude of Irish people that drinking and driving are compatible. We must be ruthless to ensure that we end once and for all this mindset which is peculiar to this country. This attitude was wiped out in other countries but it is still acceptable as part and parcel of Irish psychology and behaviour that one can drink and drive and get away with it.
In relation to the juvenile diversion scheme, I welcome the increase under this subhead of £450,000. How will the money be spent? Will it be spent on additional personnel, are more JLOs being introduced into the scheme or how does the Minister account for the fact that a further £500,000 is required in respect of the juvenile diversion scheme which has been a success?
We are increasing the number of schemes under this heading. This is the reason for an increase of approximately £450,000. Unlike the other items referred to, this is not a demand-led item. I have already indicated that I am anxious to divert young people from crime. We established a number of new projects in 1999, five of which are being co-funded by the European Social Fund and the Exchequer. I anticipate an increase in expenditure next year. That will increase the number of projects.
How are the projects chosen?
The criterion is to pick areas where crime among young people is a serious problem. The idea is that the Garda would pick the relevant areas from its experience. It has a good idea of where the projects should be situated. The projects are then financed by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
Station services and the design and construction of stations must be examined closely. Many of the older stations are unfriendly and intimidating places. We need to project the Garda station onto the public thoroughfare so that people will feel they are being invited in rather than having to go in only when an emergency arises.
Or when they are dragged in.
We must make them more open to make them consumer friendly.
An additional sum of £300,000 was required in respect of the routine medical expenses of members of all ranks. Total expenditure on medical bills was approximately £800,000 for 1999. How has there been such an increase? Is it the blue flu?
Blue flu is more expensive than real flu.
How has the health of the force deteriorated so much that it requires an additional £300,000?
I will be relieved if the blue flu does not turn into pneumonia. On the idea of Garda stations being more user friendly, that is an interesting suggestion. The question of having shop fronts in some Garda stations is under consideration, that the front of the premises would be more attractive than they are at present. We are seriously considering that. Often image is extremely important. The success of the Garda mounted unit demonstrates that. It has given the Garda Síochána a greater affinity with the public. In the same way, if the Garda stations are more attractive, it would be of assistance.
On the increase in medical consultation fees, incremental gains in the Garda budget have not kept pace with the increases in medical consultation fees. It is not that gardaí are becoming more ill, it is that we were not keeping pace.
I agree with the idea of stations being made more attractive to the public. Does the 1% for art in public buildings scheme apply to Garda stations?
It only applies to new stations.
Is it implemented in the building of new stations?
I assure the Deputy that any way we can get money, we do so.
If a crime is committed and a person has to identify a suspect——
That is not dealt with under this subhead.
I do not know if it is included under this subhead, but there is an under-spend under A and——
We are dealing with subhead A now. I ask the Deputy not to deviate.
If a young person has been assaulted and has to identify a suspect, in some stations that can be difficult.
That is dealt with under subhead H - witnesses' expenses.
I am asking the Minister which area of expenditure covers that because there are areas where there is an under-spend.
This subhead deals with furniture and bedding. I doubt it covers that.
In all stations the possibility should exist that a person can identify a suspect without being visible. That is not always available.
There could be an identity parade in a pub, never mind a Garda station. Deputy O'Sullivan is asking about two way mirrors, so that the people on parade would not be able to see the person who is being asked to identify someone. There are difficulties with that in some stations and it is not available in every station. The person doing the identifying, understandably, would prefer not be visible to those in the parade. The facility is available in many stations but not in all.
Is there an under-spend in the subhead which deals with that?
No.
The Minister said that the increase in medical expenses was due to the increased cost of consultations. Surely an additional requirement of £300,000 indicates that more consultations are being sought.
Yes. It is not exclusively one or the other. We have not, however, been keeping pace with the cost of medical consultations. There has also been a greater degree of participation by members of the force, which is indicative of the fact that people are becoming more careful about their health. That is a good thing.
Is there a breakdown of the categories involved? Does this cover general medical expenses or is there an increase in any specific area?
No, unfortunately I do not have figures for that. This figure is general. There are not many specialist fees involved in this subhead. We will try to get a breakdown of the figures.
I raised the matter to find out if the consultations relate to physical or mental health or other matters. It would be important to find out the medical pressures. I appreciate the Minister's point that it is important that people's health needs are met within the force.
We will gather as much information as we can and transmit it to the Deputy as soon as possible.
Are there any questions on A.9?
Under heading (d), transport, the Minister mentions additional vehicles for the Garda Síochána. Does that mean standard patrol cars or additional vans? What is the situation in the Garda air support unit? I understood the second helicopter was to come on stream. Could we have a breakdown of the types of vehicles which make up this figure?
In relation to the Supplementary Estimate for vehicles, the breakdown is 137 cars, two motorbikes and 12 miscellaneous. We have signed a contract for the second helicopter. The helicopter we have is extremely useful but, obviously, it cannot stay in the air all the time. We look forward to receiving the new helicopter some time next year.
I understand the helicopter will continue to operate out of Baldonnel.
Yes. The intention is that both helicopters will operate out of Baldonnel.
Is subhead E agreed? Agreed. Is subhead H agreed? Agreed. Is subhead I agreed?
In relation to subhead I, the Minister wishes to see legislation introduced to deal with a State claims agency. According to the Government's programme of legislation, this agency was to come under the aegis of the National Treasure Management Agency. Is the Minister talking about specific legislation designed to deal with his Department, separate from the Department of Finance?
The Minister mentioned that it is not possible to interfere with the functions of the Judiciary. He will recall that the Law Reform Commission made recommendations regarding non-statutory guidelines which might form the basis of advice for judges in determining sentences. Are those recommendations being examined? Are the presidents of the District Courts, for example, examining the possibility of non-statutory guidelines which might bring about consistency in sentencing? This area is causing considerable concern. Is active consideration being given to the laying down of a book of quantums so that guidelines could be available to judges on the levels of compensation payments? This would introduce an element of consistency in compensation claims.
It is not the intention to establish a separate claims agency for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The intention is that the State claims agency will apply across all Departments, including mine.
The matter of consistency in sentencing has already been raised by Deputy Fitzgerald. I have no plans at present to introduce non-statutory guidelines for the Judiciary. I am not aware that the Judiciary has been meeting with a view to introducing such guidelines. If I were to bring forward such non-statutory guidelines, the Judiciary would be entitled to ignore them. If I were to introduce such guidelines by statute I would be open to the charge of interfering with the Judiciary. This is a difficult area.
I do not accept that compensation is out of control. Claims are brought and courts make decisions. I have no power over them. I must accept the decisions of courts in this respect. It has been my experience that courts usually make awards for very good reasons.
The Estimate shows that 281 claims were made by members of the public. Did these result from altercations with members of the Garda Síochána were they sustained in Garda stations or how did they arise? This is a substantial number of claims.
Some relate to negligence, some to assaults or alleged assaults by gardaí and some to allegations of false imprisonment. There are other causes but those are the three main categories.
Is subhead I agreed? Agreed.