I welcome the Minister for Defence, Deputy Michael Smith, and his officials to this meeting. Today we are considering the Revised Estimates for the Defence group for 2002 and a briefing note has been circulated to members of the committee. To finalise the Estimates within two hours, after the conclusion of the opening remarks, it is proposed to adopt the provisional timetable circulated to members. I call the Minister.
Estimates for Public Services, 2002.
Vote 36 - Department of Defence (Revised).
Vote 37 - Army Pensions (Revised).
Acting Chairman
I am pleased to be here today to facilitate the committee's consideration of the Defence and Army Pensions Estimates for 2002. The combined Estimates are for a total of over €890 million, which represents a considerable amount of Exchequer funds. This year's Defence Estimate provides for a continuation of the programmes of investment in equipment and infrastructure that were outlined in the White Paper on Defence, which was published in 2000. In approving the White Paper, the Government agreed that 100% of the pay savings arising from the reorganisation of the Defence Forces, together with 100% of the net proceeds from the sale of barracks and other properties, would be reallocated for investment in modern equipment and facilities. That decision has enabled us to fund investment in equipment and infrastructure on a scale which is unprecedented for the Defence Forces.
In addition to the €230 million which has been invested since I became Minister in 1997, plans are in place for an additional investment of €320 million in the period to 2010. This is on top of the normal level of expenditure on equipment and infrastructural projects. The investment programme will ensure that Ireland has a modern, sustainable defence organisation with the depth and flexibility to carry out the roles laid down by Government.
I would like to update the committee in regard to the main equipment procurement projects. As Deputies will be aware, a contract was placed in late 1999 with Mowag of Switzerland for the supply of 40 Piranha armoured personnel carriers. The total value of the contract was about €51million.
Acting Chairman
If I may interrupt the Minister, Deputy Timmins wishes to intervene.
With the agreement of the Minister and Deputy Wall, I would be happy to have the Minister's speech taken as read, so that we can proceed with the discussion on the Estimates. The Minister may wish to refer to some particular matters in his script.
I am perfectly happy to facilitate the committee in whatever way the members wish to proceed. I appreciate that if I were in Opposition, I would find it difficult to listen to the record of achievement of this Government in the past five years.
Acting Chairman
I am sure the Opposition Deputies are trying to be helpful.
I have no doubt DeputyTimmins's intervention is designed to ensure that the Government gets the least possible coverage on this matter, but we can live with that. Whatever procedure suits the committee is fine with me.
There is no question of our being embarrassed by what the Minister has to say. It is purely a matter of being helpful. Perhaps the Minister would like to refer to some of the more important points.
Acting Chairman
Is it agreed that we take the Minister's speech as read? Agreed. Is the Minister agreeable to allow the Opposition spokespersons to make their contributions now or does he wish to refer to specific points in his script?
No, I agree to the suggestion, but I intend to interrupt members in the same way as they have interrupted me.
Acting Chairman
The Minister may reserve that right. I now invite Deputy Timmins to make his contribution.
In the spirit of the occasion, I thank the Minister for cutting short his contribution. I have no doubt he will find ways and means of getting the contents into the public domain. I am happy to save my remarks for the various subheads as we go through them.
Acting Chairman
Does Deputy Wall wish to proceed on the same basis?
That is perfectly agreeable to me.
Acting Chairman
We will deal now with subhead A1 to A7 concerning administration.
This subhead provides for the salaries, wages and allowances of departmental staff. The increase of 15% arises and is attributable to the increases payable under the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness.
With regard to the decentralisation of the Civil Defence branch to Roscrea and the purchase of fixtures and fittings, is the Department purchasing a new building, doing up an old one or leasing a building?
The Department is leasing a building. The application for planning permission for the modernisation and reconstruction of the building to meet Civil Defence needs is about to be submitted to Tipperary North Riding County Council. It will, as the Estimate shows, involve some expenditure in the context of furniture leasing etc.
When does the Minister believe the building will be up and running?
I expect that the work will be completed by the end of this year.
Does subhead A3, staff training and development, relate to the Department of Defence? Will the Minister give a breakdown of the figures?
That applies to the Civil Service.
There is a major increase in relation to miscellaneous provision. Will the Minister tell the committee what that is for?
It has to do with removal expenses and such matters, but it contains a variety of miscellaneous items. One small part of that would be decentralisation.
Is that to do with the Civil Defence aspect?
Yes.
Acting Chairman
If there is nothing further to be discussed on subheads A1 to A7 we will move to subhead B concerning Permanent Defence Forces pay.
With regard to the Army nursing service, have many additional nurses been taken on in recent years? How does the Minister view the development of the nursing service in the Defence Forces? My impression is that the service is fairly static. If nurses leave, are they replaced?
There has been no increase in recent years.
Are nurses replaced as they leave?
Yes, roughly speaking.
With regard to equipment and ammunition, is there a constant review of magazines and other equipment? How does the Defence Forces deal with old ammunition considering that the magazine in the Curragh is relatively close to residential areas?
This is a matter which is primarily and exclusively decided by the military authorities. They have rigid control systems. As the Deputy knows, the ammunition has a certain shelf life after which it is no longer for use. The Army has its own arrangements for disposal. However, as in all aspects of equipment, ammunition and facilities, we continue to ensure that there is upgrading and the purchase of the newest and best possible services in this area. I am not aware of any difficulties whatsoever. Deputy Wall is probably also interested in the ammunition depot which is being upgraded in the Curragh. A major project will start there within the next year.
Acting Chairman
Subhead H deals with Air Corps equipment and expenses.
I want to go back to subhead D2 concerning FCA training. Will the Minister clarify whether FCA training is back to two weeks? It had been two weeks and then went back to one.
Yes.
On subhead G concerning the purchase of armoured personnel carriers, what is the current situation regarding the so-called cracking affecting a couple of the new vehicles? Were they returned for repair?
They went back to the manufacturers and we are in constant negotiations with them. As far as I know, three vehicles have shown a very slight crack. Because of our concerns regarding new equipment and because we are in negotiations on the purchase of another 25 vehicles, we need to deal with outstanding issues that arise before finalising any purchase. From what I hear, the Defence Forces are very happy with the vehicles but this is a matter which must be dealt with. This flaw might affect up to six vehicles but they were all in the first complement. Nothing has happened to the later models that have arrived.
What sort of warranty is there? It is possible that one or two years from now we may find that this cracking is not a once-off problem.
We equate the warranty to both the lifespan of this Government and the next one. It is five years.
That is not a long warranty. One might get a longer warranty on a pair of shoes.
I have been in here many times and I was not able to get it. The warranty is for five years.
Acting Chairman
We move on to subhead H concerning Air Corps equipment expenses.
What is the situation regarding the tenders for the helicopter contract? Will the Minister expand on the current position?
Before the Minister replies to that, there is mention of short-range aircraft for ministerial duty. Will the Minister clarify what that relates to? Is it a replacement aircraft for the Government jet or is it for internal operations?
Will the Minister agree that the Sikorsky contract - it received a lot of media publicity and I have written to the Minister on the matter - is a source of embarrassment? It may have to be readvertised according to media reports. It is unusual that we could not get this contract right in the first place. Perhaps there is an explanation and I look forward to the Minister's response.
Provision is made in the Estimate for the lease of a short-range jet aircraft to replace the Beechcraft on ministerial transport duties and a decision on the tender will be made soon. We do not intend to replace the G4, but we will lease or hire aircraft from time to time to meet ministerial transport requirements.
As I informed the Dáil last night, I authorised my Department on 17 January to open negotiations with Sikorsky International Operations. I restate that the decision followed a detailed examination of tenders received from four companies. It was decided that the offer from Sikorsky was the most advantageous, strategically and economically, taking into account the award criteria set out in the tender competition: functional characteristics, technical merit, maintenance, on-line technical support, after sales service, terms of warranty, cost and ready availability of spare parts, tender prices and life cycle costs over a nominal 20 year period. I am satisfied, on the basis of the facts presented to me, that the Sikorsky offer represents the best value for money from the point of view of the taxpayer. The timeframe proposed by Sikorsky is that three search and rescue helicopters will be received by the end of next year.
Following my decision, Eurocopter sought the reasons for acceptance of the Sikorsky tender and the rejection of its tender, pursuant to Article 7 of EU Public Procurement Directive 93/36EC, as amended. Solicitors acting for Eurocopter received a reply from the Office of the Chief State Solicitor on 6 February 2002. Eurocopter also sought access to documentation relating to the tender competition under the Freedom of Information Act, 1997. It subsequently issued judicial review proceedings alleging, inter alia, that I breached my obligation under the EU directive to furnish the characteristics and relative advantage of the tender selected. The judicial review proceedings, under which certain information and documents relating to the tender procedure and award were sought from me, were adjourned with consent last Friday, 15 March, until 15 April. The freedom of information request has been progressed as far as possible in my Department and documentation relating to the competition has been passed on to solicitors acting for Eurocopter. No proceedings have been issued to date challenging my decision to open contract negotiations with Sikorsky and certain rumours in the newspapers have not originated in my office.
Is the Minister saying that there is no substance to newspaper reports that the contract will be sent for tender once more?
The matter is the subject of a judicial review process and will be back in the courts on 15 April. We await the decision of the court, whatever it may be. The original decision to award the contract to Sikorsky was based on the best available information. The challenge is not to the decision, but to the procedures. Information relating to the tender competition is being sought.
Will the Minister confirm that he directed his Department to open negotiations in January and that a company has sought a judicial review? Is he saying that these events represent the only hindrance to this project and that his Department is proceeding full steam ahead without changes to its plans?
That is right.
Will he confirm that there will be no new tendering or advertising?
That is the position at the moment. I cannot predict what the court will do and we will have to wait for its decision.
That is fair enough.
Acting Chairman
Are there any questions on subhead I, relating to military transport, or subhead J, which deals with the Naval Service's equipment and expenses?
I compliment the Naval Service, especially Commodore John Kavanagh, Captain Gerard O'Flynn, Commodore Mark Mellett and others who sailed on the LE Niamh during the Naval Service’s longest ever voyage to Hong Kong, where I joined the crew for St. Patrick’s Day. The officers are excellent ambassadors for this country. They use new technology in their voyages to different parts of the world. As this is my first opportunity to do so since I returned to Ireland, I compliment the Naval Service on the success of its endeavours to support industry, investment, jobs and exports. This is a new phenomenon, but I hope similar opportunities will emerge in the future. I am sure further expeditions will be as successful as the Hong Kong voyage, which was a wonderful success.
Acting Chairman
I am sure all members of the committee would like to be associated with the Minister's good wishes.
I have advocated new initiatives and further training in the Defence Forces. Integration with other defence forces can only be for the betterment of our forces. I compliment the Minister on this positive initiative, which should be developed on an ongoing basis.
I would like to be associated with the remarks of the Minister and Deputy Wall. While I do not intend to dwell on subhead H, I have some concerns in relation to the vessels available to the Naval Service and the expenditure on them. Does the Minister believe there is scope for greater expansion of the service to help it in its fisheries protection role and in the fight against drug trafficking?
I am sure Deputy Wall has been contacted by many people, as I have, about the need for interceptor aircraft to counter the threat of an attack similar to that in the United States on 11 September last. What are the Minister's views on the idea of putting money into defensive equipment that might not be used? Although it has a virtually unlimited defence budget, the US was unable to prevent the attacks last year. As a neutral country, we should be able to defend ourselves to a degree by having credible Defence Forces.
The Minister has been responsible for the Department of Defence for almost five years. What is his view on the commitment of politicians and the public in relation to spending money on defensive equipment, such as anti-aircraft equipment, air interceptor installations and naval vessels, compared to spending similar amounts on a new hospital, for example? Does the Minister find it difficult to make a case for military equipment at Cabinet level?
This matter can be examined in many ways. If a community wishes to be selfish, it does not allocate moneys for Third World aid and invests entirely in the domestic economy. The Government has spent about £400 million in poor Third World countries. Many factors have to be borne in mind when priorities are being determined. Unmet needs in one's own country may not be as great as those elsewhere in the world. Priorities in my Department in recent years have included the upgrading of equipment and accommodation, and investment in these areas has been increased by a large percentage. The LE Róisín and the LE Niamh were the first two ships to be bought by the Naval Service for about 20 years.
The PricewaterhouseCoopers report into the Defence Forces argued that an eight ship flotilla would be sufficient to meet our needs and pointed out the importance of a programme of investment in new ships.
Modern technology and the development of new shipping fleets are central to meeting our needs, just as the purchase of the CASA aircraft was of immeasurable assistance in supporting the Naval Service, identifying the location of illegal fishing and supporting the efforts of the service. If you were depending on ships alone to trace everything on the sea you would be limited, therefore, you need support from the air and that is being provided.
An increase in the size of the flotilla is not envisaged, but I would like to ensure that we never again return to a time where there could be a 14 or 15 year period in which no investment is made in the Naval Service. The graph tracing investment should be rising and as the need arises, when ships like the LE Deirdre come to be decommissioned, we should immediately put in place measures to replace them. That is a fairly ambitious programme for the future, bearing in mind that we have to think of education, health and environmental needs as well as other priorities which have to be met.
As far as an interceptor is concerned, we will be asking the military authorities to examine all aspects of this matter to see to what extent we can improve our defences. Deputy Timmins is right in that, no matter how we go about it, we cannot afford the luxury of investing in equipment which will very likely never be used and which, on the basis of the security information available to us, is unlikely to be necessary. That must be viewed against the other priorities we are setting for the Defence Forces generally. Overall, it is not envisaged that any substantial investment will be made in that area. We need to purchase search and rescue helicopters and training aircraft while providing for the replacement of naval ships and continuing to make substantial investment in armoured personnel carriers. We are also investing in light technical equipment, such as night vision and medical and field supplies required for United Nations missions. A wide range of investment is necessary and there are plenty of things which we are still trying to improve.
Regarding Deputy Wall's comments, a substantial investment is being made in the Curragh. It is time that was made as part of the area was an absolute disgrace. It is coming on now, but there are plenty of other places where facilities have to be improved so that young people will continue to be attracted to the Defence Forces. It should be modern and well equipped, with good accommodation and the prospect of continuing to maintain that in the future. That is as far as we will be able to go. I would like to be as optimistic as anybody else, but I do not see the prospect of any Government substantially increasing the Defence Estimate when there are health, education, environment, housing and other needs. We should therefore be practical and realistic.
Acting Chairman
We will now discuss subhead K, barracks expenses and engineering equipment, and subhead L, buildings.
I want to be associated with what the Minister said about the Curragh. Major changes are being made to the overall aspect of the camp and, as the Minister said, there are other areas that still have to be done. Some of the residential part of the Curragh needs work, as he knows, and we have spoken about the matter during Question Time on a number of occasions. Obviously, I am looking at the overall aspect. In fairness, there is no comparison between the Curragh as it is now and as it was ten years ago and I compliment the Minister on that. Major work has been done and it is all for the good of the Defence Forces at the end of the day.
Regarding the Minister's comments about the sewerage system, has there been contact between Kildare County Council and the Department of Defence in relation to areas adjacent to the Curragh Camp, such as Suncroft, Cutbush and Brownstown? Will the Department be working with the local authority to include those areas to make that project a joint scheme?
A marvellous job has been done with the swimming pool. I know the Minister is doing everything he can to overcome the shortfall in the opening hours and if that could be overcome, it would end the problem for all time. Everybody is talking about the great facility, but there are a number of schools which cannot use it because of the opening times. In reply to the questions I have put to him, the Minister has said that the number of staff required is not available at present. Many are saying they would pay to use the facility and that could contribute to the Department's efforts to provide the extra staff. This is the one little problem with a development that is lauded by everyone that has used it. It is a pity we cannot get more people in to use it, but hopefully the efforts of the Minister and his Department will change that.
Acting Chairman
We will take subhead V with that, as it is relevant.
I welcome the funding that has been spent on accommodation and refurbishment, in particular the €1.7 million refurbishment in Coolmoney. I always thought Coolmoney Camp would make an ideal location for the decentralisation of some section of the Defence Forces and it would have been most suitable for a training camp. Unfortunately, that has gone to Clonmel, but the idea is one the Minister could bear in mind.
Can the Minister update us about the refurbishment of the runway at Casement Aerodrome in light of reports that commercial interests may want to get involved? The Minister would look positively on any investment by commercial interests and at co-development of a military and commercial airport, as opposed to developing Dublin Airport. Has he any views on that, has any progress been made to date, or has the idea of attracting civilian involvement died away?
Acting Chairman
As Chair I should not ask questions, but I have a personal query. I do not see St. Bricin's Hospital included for investment and I do not know if that is relevant to this section. It is a personal issue and I am curious.
To answer the Chairman first, there was a certain amount of investment in St. Bricin's last year in preparation for what we hoped was going to be an arrangement between my Department, the Eastern Regional Health Authority and the Mater Hospital. We have spare capacity and with the pressure there was for beds I was anxious to reach an accommodation. I have not given up hope, but the Eastern Regional Health Authority came into possession of another hospital in the interim and it seems to be giving priority to that. I am anxious, if I can, to work out an arrangement which would meet the needs of the Defence Forces and help to ease the pressure on beds in Dublin. We will continue to pursue that.
I thank Deputies Timmins and Wall for their comments on the developments at the Curragh, which we are most anxious to keep moving now that we have started with them. I have a very simple approach to public services and where they are specifically designed to meet a need, they should be open to the public as much as possible. The funds which are available to me come from the taxpayer. The facility at the Curragh is exquisite and I want to see it opened up as much as possible. However, we have to take insurance, employment and facilities into account and, regrettably, we are more concerned with litigation now than when we were providing a lot less. We have to be sure everything is 100%. There are also security and other considerations involved in the management of the Curragh. As far as possible, we will accommodate the public and the schools and we expect them to be as reasonable as possible, especially in the interim between the commissioning of the pool and putting everything else in place.
Some work is being carried out on the runway at Casement Aerodrome on foot of a safety report and it will be completed very soon. With regard to the wider question, I have made it clear from the outset that I am anxious to have an arrangement whereby the Air Corps and military requirements of Casement Aerodrome and civil aviation could be met. There are many legal considerations around this matter. In addition, there is the question of the investment which has already been made in Dublin Airport and the involvement of Aer Rianta and the Department of Public Enterprise.
We have an ad hoc arrangement with some companies with regard to the use of Baldonnel for private purposes which I am anxious to enhance as much as possible. While I look forward to the day when private funds become available for further development in Baldonnel which will meet both civil and military requirements, it remains a little way off as one obviously has planning and other considerations.
With regard to the question of decentralisation to the Glen of Imaal, the Deputy and I may swap places in the next few months, which would give him the opportunity to carry out his plans in that connection. However, I warn him that there is no possibility that decentralisation to the Glen of Imaal would succeed. I await Fine Gael policy on the matter, on which I want agreement across the board as opposed to receiving the impression of one Deputy in one constituency.
Will the Minister inform us about the sewerage scheme?
We will hold consultations with Kildare County Council in this regard. As I recall, our source is a private facility and we have disposed of a number of houses there. A possible link to and use of available facilities and the plans of the county council are matters of interest to us because we have always been concerned that these expensive systems have to be continually upgraded and that we have to serve the needs of many people. Negotiations will take place on the matter.
The new line to Oberstown passes adjacent to the Curragh which raises the possibility of a linkage.
I cannot answer that now.
I digress slightly to make a further point. Have all the houses in Orchard Park, where there were a number of problems with the older occupants, been sold?
Of 100 houses, 90 have been sold.
Some of the older occupants have been living in the houses for 30 or 40 years and have been faithful servants of the Defence Forces. At a previous meeting, the Minister gave an undertaking to try to do something and I am aware that efforts have been made. Perhaps the Department would continue its efforts, for example, by selling off the remaining houses to existing tenants. I am aware a few of the unoccupied houses were sold to members of the Defence Members. The fact that they were given first priority was appreciated and was the right approach. If something could be done to try to facilitate the remaining ten occupants, everyone in the area would appreciate it.
As far as possible, the State and its organisations should withdraw from its traditional role in the housing sector. People care more for their homes under ownership schemes as demonstrated by the history of houses falling into bad repair and looking bad. I undertook to examine the issue the Deputy raised and my recollection is that the view regarding the ten remaining houses is that, while it may not be true in all ten cases, at least some of the occupants are in a better position to purchase their houses than occupants who have already purchased. It would, therefore, be downright unfair to engage in a concessionary scheme which would obviously hurt all those who made a strenuous effort to purchase.
We will examine each case on an individual basis and I will look sympathetically at the cases of those occupants who are genuinely not in a position to purchase. However, in those cases where it is considered that the persons have sufficient resources to purchase their homes, they will be expected to do so or face whatever consequences arise from overholding.
Acting Chairman
We must move on. Are there questions on subheads M - ordnance, clothing and catering; N - communications and information technology; O - military training; P - travel and freight services; Q - medical expenses; R - lands——
On subhead R, a number of landowners in the general area of the Curragh lease land to the Department. It appears that a sudden strong interest shown by the Department in obtaining the land for a further period has diminished as the landowners have not received any further queries for some time.
No.
The Department was in constant touch with the landowners for a while, after which its interest seemed to die away for some reason.
I am not fully aware of the position.
The landowners cannot figure out the reason. I will write to the Minister about it in order that we can address it on an individual basis.
Just to ensure we are discussing the same issue, was the period in question before the outbreak of foot and mouth and disease?
Yes, but the matter has nothing to do with that outbreak. The lands in question have been leased to the Department of Defence on a long-term basis.
I cannot address the specific cases to which the Deputy refers. However, from my personal knowledge of the general issue, we have a quite a number of leases which are extremely generous by any standards and have not been reviewed for a considerable time. It is possible the lands in question come within this category. I understand from the Deputy's comments that we have not got back to the landowners in question about the matter.
That is correct.
I presume they were in no hurry to come back to us either.
I assume, fortunately for themselves, that they were not.
On the costs of civilian security for vacated barracks, obviously we still havecivilian security at a couple of barracks.
We have civilian security at three barracks - Naas, Ballincollig and Clancy. We no longer have it in Castleblayney andFermoy. As I have explained on a number of occasions, the cost of private security for these barracks, which is essential to protect the properties before they are sold, is considerably less than the security duty allowances and other day to day maintenance costs such as telephones and electricity which would be provided if we provided the security. It is, therefore, a net gain for the Department of Defence and the country. I cannot account for the source of his inside information, but in fairness to Deputy Wall he always comes to me first to establish if there is any truth in it. There were two reasonable bids for Clancy Barracks when it was initially put up for tender but they were unacceptable. A substantially increased further bid has been received and the marketing of the barracks is ongoing. I expect that it will be sold by the end of the year at a price very much above what some thought it would achieve.
Acting Chairman
I have an interest in the barracks as it is in my constituency and I am also a member of the local authority. One of the big problems with the sale of Clancy Barracks is that the buildings have to be preserved. They are not listed any more but they have to be conserved which reduces the potential for realising the value of the site.
I was very keen to do a deal with the city council and even though I said some harsh things about it, I acknowledge that it had concerns about how economic a proposition it would be, bearing in mind the value of the site for the purposes it proposed. A social housing mix is not only desirable but possible and will likely happen in future. I understand the city council is currently carrying out a study on how the site could be developed and information will be available to us at a later stage.
Acting Chairman
Will the health board night hostel accommodation remain on site if a sale is agreed?
It is temporary accommodation and will remain until the end of April.
Acting Chairman
Will the health board have to renegotiate if and when the property is sold?
Yes.
The local authority is formulating a town plan for Kildare and McKee Barracks has a major role to play in it. This issue has been debated on a number of occasions and the Minister gave an undertaking that everything possible will be done to facilitate the council in this regard. I understood that the Minister was willing to talk to the council in regard to what can be done with the land apart from what has been rented to Kildare County Council for a halting site and what has been rented to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, but little progress has been made in that regard.
I accept a certain amount of the fault for that because the accommodation given to Kildare County Council was for one year. In addition, accommodation was provided for some 200 asylum seekers. I hoped that when we knew what the county council envisaged in the longer term, we would be in a position to look at the site in total rather than just a part of it.
The prevailing situation handicaps the decision making process. I am happy for an early meeting with the local authority and community representatives to take place. It is a pivotal site with great potential for Kildare and I am as keen as the Deputy for development to take place. I want to invest the proceeds of the sale in meeting the needs of the Defence Forces, but I wish to optimise what is done with the site. I could not resist the requests on behalf of the asylum seekers and the local authority but they do place some limitations on what I can currently do.
I agree with the Minister that the complete site should be our focus, but there should be dialogue with the local authority.
I will undertake to do that.
Acting Chairman
Subhead S relates to equitation. The equitation school in McKee Barracks takes transition year students for work experience and my daughter availed of this opportunity. I am grateful for the excellent treatment, help and advice she and others received and I expressed my thanks to them at the time.
It is not necessary for the Chair to declare a vested interest.
Acting Chairman
As an Army baby my interest is clear in any case.
The Army Equitation School is to be congratulated on being part of the national showjumping team in the past two years. The team has been extremely successful in regard to Nations Cup competitions' across the world. Last year a record 11 or 12 wins was achieved. As with the Navy this is another aspect of the Defence Forces that cannot be highlighted enough in the context of putting Ireland on the world stage.
I wish to be associated with those remarks. I note that Commandant John Ledingham who was at the forefront of the equitation school for the past 20 years retired in the past few weeks. I congratulate all involved in the school.
Acting Chairman
I join in those remarks.
I thank the Deputies for their comments. Last year the school celebrated its 25th anniversary. Some 15 international championships were won and the school does the Defence Forces, and indeed the country, proud. The school has its own distinctive style of training. In the past some Defence Forces reviews may have suggested scaling down this enterprise, but as my colleagues have said it is a window for Ireland which should continue to be maintained and developed. Some interesting alliances have built up through the lease and purchase of horses. Changes have been made in terms of the horse type, breeding and so on in order to get the best results. Some people in this business are extremely wealthy and can pay much more than we can afford for good stock. We will keep it going as well as we can.
Acting Chairman
Subhead T relates to compensation and subhead U relates to miscellaneous expenses. Subhead V was dealt with earlier. Subhead W relates to Civil Defence.
A Civil Defence Bill is going through the Dáil at the moment and although it is being taken by the Minister of State, Deputy Brennan, I am sure the Minister has a big input into it. I have raised certain points in regard to it, the main one being the membership of the board containing a member of the Defence Forces. Deputy Brennan referred to the possibility of a member of the Garda Síochána being involved. I support Deputy Wall's position following representations from the General Council of County Councils. I expect the Bill will be taken next week.
It should be finished next week. The Minister of State has already given an undertaking to give strong consideration to the inclusion of some of those amendments on Report Stage. It is almost impossible to give everything because Deputy Timmins has an inexhaustible list of demands. Will the Deputy be happy if we go half way down the road with him?
One of the amendments I tabled sought to reduce the number the Minister was entitled to appoint, so I was taking the one——
Why should the Deputy be so pessimistic about his future?
I noticed there was a strong urge to have a permanent Civil Defence member as the next chief executive officer. We had a discussion on that.
Acting Chairman
It will happen now.
It will happen now, but maybe not in the future. I am sure the Minister will get very good advice from his departmental staff in that regard.
Acting Chairman
I made a proposal in respect of the board myself when we were taking the Bill. Let us consider subhead X on the Irish Red Cross.
I compliment the efforts of the Red Cross in respect of the flood victims. It has done tremendous work in that regard, as it has done on previous occasions. I do not think it has many staff, but I was involved in a number of cases in which the organisation was involved and the response and effort it put in to resolve the problems must be appreciated.
I would like to be associated with those remarks.
This is not the only occasion on which we have heard such remarks. On every occasion on which the Red Cross was called on to help, it dealt with matters in a no nonsense but very deliberate way and worked very quietly and without much publicity. I thank the Deputies for those comments and will pass them on to the Red Cross.
Acting Chairman
Subhead Y pertains to Coiste an Asgard expenditure.
Under subhead Z on appropriation-in-aid, what is the position on receipts pertaining to the United Nations?
Acting Chairman
In respect of overseas allowances?
Yes.
We are always anxious to get refunds. We did very well last year.
Last year was good.
We are happy enough with the outcome in that respect so far.
Is there a percentage in respect of what we get from the EU in terms of fishery protection? Is that a negotiated figure? How do we arrive at the figure concerning fishery protection costs?
I have to give the Deputy an answer off the top of my head. As far as I can recall, having dealt with this before, there is a specific percentage for the purchase of ships. The percentage is usually 50% but it can vary. It could be less than that.
Acting Chairman
We will now consider Vote 37 which concerns army pensions. Subhead A refers to salaries, wages and allowances.
I recall meeting various groups during the Tipperary South by-election. I was presented with lovely letters about the military service allowance being considered for pensions.
That was the first time the Deputy heard about that.
I have to admit that the Minister was not one of the signatories, nor was he responsible for any of the letters. Two very prominent politicians were responsible for them, but I admire the skill with which they were drafted and presented. I do not know if the Government has brought out its manifesto for the next general election. In respect of the generation of people who do not have the military service allowance included for pensions, I know the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, produced a report with a certain price on it which indicated that it is currently outside the remit of the Government to address that matter.
To be fair to the people in question, and irrespective of who is in Government, what is the current position? There is very little hope that that pension will be paid in the immediate future or that the military service allowance will be calculable for pension purposes. I am not trying to corner the Minister, but I would not like to see Fine Gael or any other party saying in the next month or so that it will give strong consideration to the matter if there is no hope of it happening.
This matter has been ongoing. I have been discussing it with the Minister for a long time. When it first arose at the beginning of the term of this Government, I felt the allowance would be paid. Perhaps our friends in the Department of Finance decided that this was not the road to take. Instead of talking in respect of the Defence Forces and the military service allowance, slowly but surely, as the Government's term progressed, the gardaí and other groups were brought in because it would affect them as well. I got the impression at the beginning that something would be done, but as the Government's term progressed, it seemed less likely. It is now thought that the payment of an allowance is once again imminent - I was told that on St Patrick's Day when I spoke to some retired members. Perhaps the Minister will outline the current position.
I have not seen the Labour Party manifesto but the Fine Gael one is certainly very tight in terms of public expenditure. The Commission on Public Service Pensions considered this issue and a wide variety of others concerning public service pensions. It invited submissions and received written and oral ones. It had groups representing retired members right across the board, including those on military service allowance. Ultimately, it made no recommendation that payment would be made. The investigation of this question and others was the most independent ever undertaken since the foundation of the State.
It seems there is very strong resistance among those looking at such questions - people with a very independent view, as distinct from our view as politicians - in respect of the ability to go backwards in terms of allowing allowances of that kind to be pensionable beyond the date when the change was made. They feel it presents problems, but also leads to other complications.
I know of a few cases, which I do not mind mentioning, of people who opted out of the Defence Forces and died subsequently, leaving their wives or partners with absolutely nothing. I would break down this building if I thought I could change this to give something, on compassionate grounds, to those people who are so deserving. However, there were two opportunities given not to opt in but to opt out - in other words, one was automatically in unless one opted out. In these cases, they opted out. The decisions were extraordinary. It is not for me to question the morality or otherwise of what others do, but the decisions have left a real trail of problems behind. It does not appear as if we have the power to address the matter, which I would prioritise if I had the power. That is the current position.
Acting Chairman
In light of the scheme about which the Minister was speaking, if it were to arise again, would it be just the member who would be advised of the possibility of opting out or would a spouse be advised of the possibility also? In the days when that option was given, wives, generally speaking, had no clue that their husbands were opting out of the widow's and orphan's pension scheme.
Given our new understanding of what equality means, perhaps the advice would extend beyond those immediately involved. Up to the time I am speaking about, it was specific to the person in question and had nothing to do with anyone else. Apparently things are as they were.
Acting Chairman
We strayed into subhead D. Does anyone want to raise any questions about subhead C? Subhead E deals with DefenceForces pensions. Are there any issues to be raised on subheads F, G, H, I, J, K or L?
Who in the Department of Defence deals with the aspects in subhead J? I am sure there are not too many people involved in that.
They are based in Galway.
Acting Chairman
That concludes our discussion of the various subheads. I invite the Minister to make his concluding remarks.
Having been deprived of the opportunity to say a number of things at the outset, it would be unfair of me to take up the committee's time in saying something more generous to the Department of Defence than the statement itself would have said. I thank the Acting Chairman for facilitating us.
Since it is not likely that I will meet the committee before the general election, I wish all the members well. We have had five years of solid work in the Defence Forces. Opposition Deputies made every effort to raise issues and help in every way they could. There have not been too many embarrassing moments. If there were such moments they must have passed without my noticing them. I am fairly thick skinned. I appreciate the interest my colleagues have taken in Department of Defence matters. It is not easy to do such work in Opposition. Opposition members do not have the same support as a Minister for research and other work. The Opposition spokespersons have been extremely diligent and fair, with the possible exception of one or two Wicklow bouts. Those are not unusual for those who come from the county. They have put referees into the boots of cars on a few occasions.
I thank the Acting Chairman and the Minister and his staff. I wish I could inform him that I have a mole in the Department. Unfortunately I do not have one. My generation has mostly left the Defence Forces. I wish the Minister well.
For a long time the Defence Forces were starved of investment. Resources were not available, it was not a matter of positive discrimination. I compliment the Minister for the investment for which his predecessors had set the wheels in motion. The closing of the barracks was a necessary decision. It is easy to side-step such things, but I compliment the Minister. Perhaps I should not have used that word regarding the closure of the barracks in Kildare. I compliment the Minister on his policy of making hard decisions.
I pay tribute to the members of the Defence Forces. They went through a difficult period but it seems to have balanced itself. Hopefully things will evolve due to our involvement in the Partnership for Peace and new overseas missions. I particularly hope to see the Civil Defence get the recognition it deserves. I wish all Members well in the weeks ahead. I read in today's newspapers that the Minister is hoping to move to the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development.
The Deputy keeps an eye on things.
I seldom get the chance to read the newspapers now. I only thought of Clancy Barracks as an afterthought. I noticed the disposal of military equipment. I can picture the Minister ploughing through a farm in Tipperary North in a tank.
The Taoiseach has indicated that there will be a referendum on the Nice Treaty in the autumn irrespective of who is Taoiseach. Maybe the Department could produce a small book or pamphlet detailing the various aspects of military involvement. It is difficult to explain the Western European Union, Partnership for Peace and Rapid Reaction Force to the electorate. Some have used these as a negative concept. I am aware of the neutrality protocol that is to be added to the Nice Treaty. It is important to point out that our involvement is on a voluntary basis and under the UN charter. We should not allow scaremongers to tell parents that their sons could be sent to overseas hot spots. The booklet would be useful for politicians as well as the public. Many people do not understand these organisations. It is difficult for anybody to extrapolate information and get an understanding of the Western European Union, PfP and RRF.
I thank the Acting Chairman for her work. I think this is the second time she has chaired the Estimates meeting. I also thank the Minister and his staff for the help they have given me over the years. I received responses to any queries I posed in the shortest possible time.
There has been major changes in the Defence Forces. One can see the change in the central focus of the Defence Forces at the Curragh. I was there on St. Patrick's day last year. It is amazing to see the development that has taken place, which are for the benefit of the general public in the area as well as for the Army. We have had our ups and downs with the Minister, but we were all trying to ensure that the Defence Forces had it rightful place in Government spending. That has been done and the Minister has done a good job.
The overall content of the Defence Forces will be reflective of the communities where they are based. We have seen changes in our involvement overseas. We treasure the work our DefenceForces have done and continue to do on such missions. I have often thought that the DefenceForces were among the harbingers of the Celtic tiger. They have represented us very well for many years and created an image of Ireland that everyone wanted to see.
It is good to see the constant visits of Ministers, and this Minister in particular, to people overseas as it shows them that the Government and the Houses of the Oireachtas, represented by the Minister, recognise the work they are doing. This is appreciated. I thank everyone who is involved and I wait in hope for the day on which we will sit here again with Deputy McGennis in the Chair.
One never knows these things as it is up to the people. Maybe on that day we will be complimenting ourselves as we have been doing today. I thank the Minister and his staff - all their efforts are much appreciated.
Acting Chairman
I thank the Minister and his officials for attending today's meeting and I also thank both Opposition spokespersons for their co-operation, both today and the last time I took the Chair for the meeting at which we considered the Estimates. The members have used our time most effectively and efficiently today. I wish them well in the forthcoming election.