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Select Committee on Legislation and Security díospóireacht -
Thursday, 2 Jun 1994

Estimates for Public Services, 1994.

Vote 20 — Garda Síochána (Revised Estimate).
Vote 21 — Prisons (Revised Estimate).
Vote 22 — Courts (Revised Estimate).
Vote 23 — Land Registry and Registry of Deeds (Revised Estimate).
Vote 24 — Charitable Donations and Bequests (Revised Estimate).

I welcome the Minister and her officials to the committee once again. A suggested timetable has been circulated. This has been discussed and agreed with the convenors. It is proposed that the meeting commence with the normal opening statements, which will take one hour approximately. We will then consider each Vote in turn as indicated on the timetable before Members. We will take a sos at 1.15 p.m. for one hour and it is proposed to conclude our formal consideration at 4 p.m. if we have not concluded already. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The business before the committee today is the revised Estimates for Vote 19, the Office of the Minister for Justice; Vote 20, Garda Síochána; Vote 21 Prisons; Vote 22, Courts; Vote 23, Land Registry and Registry of Deeds; and Vote 24, Charitable Donations and Bequests. That is a total of six separate Votes the Select Committee is obliged to consider. I look forward to a constructive and informative debate.

This is the second occasion on which I have presented the Estimates for the Justice group of Votes, that is Votes 19 to 24, for consideration by this committee. The sum involved — nearly £558 million — is a reflection of the Government's continued commitment to the fight against crime and the reform of the criminal justice system.

Before I address the details of the Estimates, I wish to make some comments about crime. We are all of course concerned at the level and type of crime in Ireland today. The recent horrific and senseless murders in the Clare and Galway areas have heightened our awareness even further. In particular, they raise the spectre that the more violent criminal trends, which unfortunately are often a normal part of daily life in other societies in the world, might become a normal part of criminal activity in this country.

There are of course considerations which ought to be mentioned by way of setting things in context and avoiding undue anxiety. First, the crime situation in Ireland is no worse than many of our European counterparts and in fact is far better than most. Second, Ireland has the opportunity to learn, and is in fact learning, from trends which have already developed in other countries, how to combat certain types of crime and to ensure that our society is kept as safe as possible. Third, and importantly, the Irish community is, I believe, one of the most informed and conscious societies in the developed world and is extremely aware that they also have a role to play in crime prevention in addition to the response of the law enforcement agencies. This awareness is complemented by the increasing involvement in recent years by the Garda with the communities which they serve — a topic to which I will refer again later.

However, we need to say a little more in order to allay the concerns which emerged following the recent murders to which I have referred. The atmosphere which these appalling and tragic events have generated goes beyond the very natural feeling of grief for the victims and those left behind — there is generated also a sense that there is now a new norm in Irish life and that events like those I have mentioned may be visited on any of our neighbourhoods at any time.

I believe that, as public representatives, we have a responsibility to say that the circumstances which surround these particular and individual events do not signify the emergence of a new norm. All of us have been distressed and saddened by what has happened, but it runs way beyond the bounds of reason to cite these events as examples of a fundamental change in the standards of behaviour and treatment which the people of this country may expect from their fellow citizens.

It is no longer possible to give a strict definition of what constitutes "crime" as the issue has broadened significantly in line with those developments which are intrinsically related to modern society and which have affected the way we work, live and play. Fraud, for instance, is an example of a modern day crime and both the Government's and the Garda Síochána's response to this issue have adapted in line with these developments.

Since becoming Minister for Justice I have become aware of just how many aspects there are to the topic of crime. This awareness has, I believe, allowed me to consider in a more focused way that is a suitable response to dealing with the issue of crime and the fact that this response must reflect its current complexity. For this reason, the measures contained in the law and order package which I published last December, and which represent a significant initiative and investment by the Government, reflect the fact that crime in modern day society is a multi-faceted issue and that the response to the problem must be a considered and comprehensive one. I am confident this package reflects these aspects and will have long lasting and significant benefits for the public.

The drugs situation remains one of my highest priorities. We are all aware of the horrific effects of drug misuse and addiction. In so far as law enforcement is concerned, the Garda are having regular successes in detecting and prosecuting drug offences. We read about these cases frequently in the media. The Criminal Justice (No. 3) Bill, 1993, will be enacted, hopefully, very shortly. It will enable the proceeds of serious crime, including drug trafficking, to be confiscated. I am confident these new powers will prove most effective in tackling the main players in organised crime, including the "drug barons".

I turn now to the individual Votes. A sum of £19.114 milion is provided in the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Justice and for certain other services including the Data Protection Commissioner, the Garda Complaints Board and the Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal. The figure provided represents a 3 per cent increase on the 1993 provisional outturn. The additional funding is mainly to provide for increased costs due to additional duties and responsibilities which my Department has arising from the Maastricht Treaty and for increased salary costs. I have also provided a sum of £110,000 for the Irish Association for Victim Support — a voluntary organisation whose aims and objectives I support and whose sterling work with the victims of crime I greatly admire.

The provision in this year's Estimate for the Garda Vote is £393.936 million. This represents an increase of over £22 million, or almost 6 per cent on last year's initial allocation. A substantial part of this increased funding will be spent on a number of special initiatives in the Garda area, which I am taking in order to prevent and detect crime more effectively.

The Government is committed to giving the Garda, the courts and the prison service the necessary resources to tackle crime in all its forms. The package of law and order measures to be implemented in the years 1994 to 1997 has an overall cost of £66 million. The measures in the package are essential to confront the criminals in our society who prey on law abiding people.

On the Garda Síochána side, the main measures included in the package include the acceleration of the existing recruitment campaign by the recruitment of 407 additional Garda trainees this year. This involves bringing forward by one year the four year recruitment campaign originally begun in 1992 and due to end in 1995. This year the number of gardaí recruited will be double what it would otherwise have been. During the period 1995 to 1997, 1,050 gardaí will be recruited to maintain the force at its current optimum level. This will mean an annual intake of 350 a year in each of those years. This recruitment process has already begun. A commitment has been made to the ongoing process of civilianisation in the Garda Síochána. A further 200 civilians will be recruited at the rate of 50 a year for each of the years 1994 to 1997. This is a key strategy to get gardaí away from desks and out onto the streets of our cities and towns for operational duties, the duties for which they were recruited and trained. I am also in the process of beginning the recruitment of civilians to slot in at management level in the force to fill senior positions. A modern police force must be mobile and able to depend on its transport. My plan approaches the whole question of fleet management in a structured way and it ensures that the Garda will have the vehicles they need for all the varied aspects of their work.

Closed circuit television monitoring is becoming more prevalent in society today. We are all used to seeing the cameras in shops, petrol filling stations and banks. We also see the benefits of this technology as an aid to policing in programmes such as the "Crimeline" TV series. Closed circuit television is extremely successful in identifying criminals and it has a huge deterrent effect. My plan provides for the installation, on a pilot basis, of closed circuit television technology in two areas of Dublin — the city centre and the Temple Bar area. When we have evaluated its effectiveness, we will consider the extension of this initiative to other areas.

I also will be implementing certain proposals of the advisory committee on fraud in relation to staffing structures in the Garda fraud squad. The legal changes recommended by the committee are being worked on in my Department at present and I hope to publish a Bill updating our antiquated laws on dishonesty later this year.

I believe that preventing crime is better than solving it. For this reason funding has been provided in this year's Garda Estimates for the enhancement of crime prevention initiatives. My Department has been to the forefront in recent years in funding community based projects which have as their aim the diversion of young people at risk of sliding into a life of crime, vandalism and lawlessness away from anti-social behaviour and petty crime. This follows on from the conclusions in the 1992 report of the Inter-Departmental Committee on Urban Crime and Disorder.

My plan provides funding for the continuation of those initiatives which are channelled through the Garda to underscore the fact that the Garda are part of the communities in which they serve. These projects can be highly cost effective. I am happy with the success of the projects which were undertaken on a pilot basis in two areas of Dublin, in Ronanstown in north Clondalkin and Killinarden in Tallaght. This year I have included provision for the funding of further community based schemes in Knocknaheeny/Hollyhill in Cork and Moyross in Limerick. The extension of these youth diversion projects to other areas is also under consideration.

The present strength of the Garda Síochána is 10,892. In addition, the employment of almost 700 civilians to perform clerical duties has led to the release of gardaí to perform the outdoor operational duties for which they were specially selected and trained. The operational strength of the force is now at its highest level ever. The Government is committed to maintaining the strength of the Garda Síochána at this level and are taking the necessary steps to ensure this.

The Garda Estimate 1994 includes the provision of £2.4 million for the implementation of the Garda information technology plan. It will make a very substantial contribution to the effectiveness of the Garda Síochána. For example, the plan will enable information, once collected, to be used for several different purposes and for time-consuming manual procedures to be automated, thus enabling the gardaí to spend less time on paper-work and more on important outdoor police work. Crime detection rates will be increased through improved co-ordination of information and through the provision of computerised fingerprint identification facilities. Improved management information will enable more effective use to be made of Garda resources and a more effective response to be provided to the public.

Total once-off expenditure on the IT plan will be in the region of £26 million. The £2.4 million included in this year's Estimate will be spent on the computer capital, staffing and consultancy areas and the sum is in addition to the normal provision of approximately £1.2 million for Garda computerisation, including maintenance.

Turning to the Prisons Vote, the Estimates provide for significant increases for prison staff and accommodation and also for probation and welfare service staff and community facilities. These are aimed in a strategic way at enabling both services to respond to the urgent demands being placed upon them. In all, a total of £108.6 million has been provided in the Estimates, of which £10.9 million is for the probation and welfare service. This compares with last year's provisional outturn of £96.3 million, of which £8.8 million was for the probation and welfare service.

The single biggest area of expenditure on the Prisons Vote is salaries, wages and allowances for prison staff. These account for £70.9 million in the Estimates for 1994, compared with last year's provisional outturn of £66.4 million. The increase is for 204 additional staff, as well as for the effect of increases under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress and increments.

The extra prison staff are being provided for the health care unit at Mountjoy Prison and to reduce the extent of overtime working which has been at an unsustainably high level of recent years. Last year's overtime expenditure came to £14.2 million, or 21 per cent of the pay bill. This situation, or course, reflects the expanding workload of the prison system arising by way of increasing numbers of prisoners, the operation of new accommodation and associated workload increases. Unlike other services, much of the work arising in prisons has to be done as it arises, and often the most effective and economical way to meet it is by overtime working. However, there is scope for identifying recurrent demands which could be met with additional staff. The recruitment programme which is provided for includes a step in that direction and will, in fact, re-establish the relative balance between pay and overtime which existed a few years ago.

There is a provision of £15.1 million for buildings and equipment under subhead B. This represents an increase of £4.5 million on the provision in 1993 and the increase is almost exclusively in respect of costs to be incurred this year in providing new prison accommodation. As Deputies will be aware, the provision of 210 additional prison places is an integral part of the comprehensive law and order package approved by the Government. Sixty of the additional places will be in a new purpose-designed prison facility for women offenders and the remaining 150 places, for male offenders, will be provided at Castlerea, County Roscommon.

A high priority is being accorded to the planning and construction of these two prison facilities. Planning work is well advanced in both cases and the construction of the prison perimeter wall and associated works for Castlerea prison has already commenced. It is my intention that the two new institutions will be completed and come into use as quickly as possible.

Side by side with the provision of extra places, it is my policy to develop further community-based sanctions for appropriate offenders. I am committed to finding the right balance between custodial and community sanctions. The law and order package involves the recruitment of an additional 50 probation and welfare officers and support staff over the next four years for that purpose and we have provided £0.5 million in 1994 for the first phase of this recruitment.

I have also obtained approval to fill 20 existing vacancies in the probation service this year. Thirteen of these staff will be assigned to the intensive supervision scheme. This is where young serious offenders are referred by the court as an alternative to custody or from prison at an early stage of sentence. Offenders are intensively supervised and are challenged to confront their offending behaviour — not just its causes but also its consequences on themselves, their families and their victims. I am satisfied that this programme is doing an effective job for us in reducing repeat offending among serious offenders. Over 100 offenders are currently participating in the scheme and this will be substantially increased to closer to 200 when the extra 13 staff are recruited. The response rate to the scheme measured by the numbers who remain out of crime and by the attendance and level of commitment to the programme, is approximately 75 per cent. The total of 70 extra staff for the probation and welfare service will represent an increase of over 40 per cent in the strength of the service by 1997.

Finally, in relation to this Vote I will shortly be publishing a comprehensive policy document/five-year plan for the management of offenders. The developments I have outlined above are a critical element of the strategy I will be adopting.

I move now to the Courts Vote. It goes without saying that the courts play a vital role in the administration of justice and I have broad responsibility for providing the services necessary to enable the courts to function efficiently and effectively. The Courts Vote provides the funding necessary to equip the courts to carry out their role.

The Vote covers the usual costs such as salaries, office equipment, accommodation and telecommunications. The estimated net cost of the courts system in 1994, taking into account the gross current expenditure and revenue accruing to the State through fines etc., is approximately £20.5 million.

The efficiency of all aspects of the courts is of great concern to me. I have already obtained Government approval for the appointment of three additional judges — one to the High Court, one to the Circuit Court and one to the District Court — to address delays in the hearing of criminal cases. With regard to the hearing of family law cases, I have read with interest the Law Reform Commission consultation paper on this matter and as soon as I receive their final report it will receive my immediate attention.

I am also actively addressing the problem of court accommodation. I am glad that this year I have secured an increase in the allocation for expenditure on court accommodation with £4.25 million being provided for capital works and a new allocation of £1 million being made available for maintenance projects in provincial courts. I will continue to take whatever measures are necessary within the resources available to me to maintain and improve the services provided by the court system.

A sum of £12.073 million being provided in the Vote for the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds represents an 8 per cent increase in the 1993 provisional outturn. The additional funds provided are mainly to cover salary and other costs associated with the operation of the registries.

The committee will be aware of the Government's decision to reconstitute the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds as a commercial semi-State body. The interim board to the registries, which was appointed in July 1992, is continuing its deliberations. Progress is being made in regard to the necessary administrative and legislative steps necessary to convert the registries to semi-State status.

The Government decided in November 1992 that part of the operations of the Land Registry is to be transferred to Waterford city. Arising from this decision, I established a study group in July 1993 to examine the problems arising from decentralisation and to make recommendations as to how the Government decision is to be implemented with minimum disruption to the operation of the Land Registry. Arising from the study group's recommendations, I have decided which areas of Land Registry work should be transferred to Waterford. The transfer of the work in question will involve in the region of 150 staff. A circular issued on 20 May 1994 throughout the Civil Service canvassing staff in other Departments who would be interested in transferring to Waterford. It is envisaged that the move to Waterford will take place in 1996.

Finally, a sum of £203,000 has been provided to cover the costs of running the Office of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests.

In the time available I have tried to explain how the resources are being addressed so as to obtain the maximum value from the funds available to my Department. I look forward to hearing the contributions Deputies may wish to make and I will try to answer the questions which may arise.

I propose this committee should seek powers to send for persons, papers and records concerning the granting of Irish citizenship to two residents of the middle east and, further, agree to set up an inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the granting of citizenship to these persons and the related investment in a company owned by the Taoiseach's family. It is wholly unacceptable that a closed shop of Ministers should, first, consider persons for citizenship on the alleged intimate knowledge of one of its members; second, grant the applications behind closed doors; third, not inquire whether any colleague or his family benefitted financially by such a decision; and, fourth, bypass the IDA, which was not consulted in this case, although it was in others. If this were to happen in the Stock Exchange it would be called insider trading. Nobody likes involving the family of a Minister or Deputy in public controversy but it is simply not on for the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste to hide behind the shield of decency which is conventionally observed. Public office holders — not their families have some explaining to do. When the Taoisach left office as Minister——

The terms of reference of this committee are very clear and the Deputy is aware of them. It is not in order this morning——

If you wish to press this, Sir, I will ask for an adjournment of this committee and we will go the House. We are debating the Estimates for the Department of Justice and various Votes. The office of the Minister for Justice, which granted these citizenships, is up for debate here this morning. It is wholly in order and if you wish to challenge my right to raise this matter here I will ask that this meeting be adjourned and we will go to the House to clarify the matter.

The terms of reference of the select committee are clear and precise on the matters falling within its remit. In essence, the committee may consider Estimates for the public service relevant to justice, law reform and defence; the impact on equality of policy relevant to the aforementioned areas; Committee Stages of those Bills relevant to the aforementioned areas as referred to us by the Dáil and reports relevant to the aforementioned areas referred by the committee to the Dáil.

It is not in my remit as chairman or, indeed, within the remit of this committee to act outside our terms of reference which clearly preclude the line of action suggested by the Deputy. The committee cannot unilaterally alter its terms of reference. If changes are to be made they cannot be made by the committee. The Deputy will have to go back to the Dáil and have that matter discussed. It is not within our remit, we already agreed that the purpose of this meeting is to discuss the Estimate for the Department of Justice, as agreed by the convenors and we should proceed with that.

That is what I am seeking to do. I am not seeking to unilaterally change your terms of reference. I am asking for the committee's support to seek a change in our terms of reference to inquire into this matter. I hope that other members will support my proposal that we seek an amendment of our terms of reference to inquire into this matter. I intend to refer to this matter on the Vote for the Department of Justice. I hope that other members will support my proposal.

I think the Deputy is quite in order since the passport issue falls within the remit of the Department of Justice. As seen on the Order of Business today, it is impossible to raise this matter and be in order. This House is a farce if a major scandal of public importance and interest cannot be raised. The Dáil is adjourning today and there will be no other opportunity in the main Houses of the Oireachtas to raise this matter of legitimate public interest. The Deputy is quite in order in bringing this matter up at this committee.

The Deputy should be very careful about using the word "scandal". This matter was dealt with in the House very clearly by the Ceann Comhairle——

It is not finished yet.

——as laid down by the rules of the House. I want to caution members who are trying to use another method of raising this matter here. It is not in order——

The matter is raised, Chairman, with respect——

You are eating into my time, Chairman. I want injury time.

I did not interrupt any Deputy. We came here for a specific purpose. Because people did not get their way in the Dáil with the rulings of the Ceann Comhairle——

Chairman, behave impartially, please, as a chairman should.

I will be impartial and I am asking for co-operation.

Do not make statements of that kind.

The rules clearly lay down the function of this committee, which I ask the members to remember.

We are debating the Justice Estimate. You, chairman, are the only one being disorderly.

I am asking for the co-operation of the members to get on with the Estimate for the Department of Justice. I call Deputy Gilmore.

On a point of order, is it not in order for any member of this committee to raise a matter which comes within the remit of the Minister for Justice when discussing the Justice Estimate? It has always happened. I recall raising during the Justice Estimate last year a very specific individual situation which arose within the Minister's remit. It was not ruled out of order then, it was perfectly in order. It has always been the case that a committee can ask the House to widen its terms of reference or remit. Quite frankly, Chairman, I am very disappointed that you are now seeking to muzzle members of this committee from raising a controversial issue. The fact that it is a controversial issue should not prevent us from raising and discussing it here. We have always been entitled to raise individual matters which come within the Minister's remit.

I am not refusing to allow people to raise the matter under the Estimate of the Department of Justice. However, it is not within my remit as Chairman of this committee to adjourn to have the terms of reference changed. That is the function of the Dáil.

Who used the word "adjourn"?

You did.

No, Sir. I read from the script in front of me. I noted it carefully and did not use the word "adjourn". I said that this committee agrees to seek powers to send for persons, papers and records concerning the granting of Irish citizenship. The record will show exactly what I said. I made no mention of the word adjourn. I am afraid, Sir, that you have been wrongly briefed by the people I sought advice from before this meeting.

What I am saying——

Look at the record. There was no mention of the word "adjourn" except from you.

If the Deputy wishes to have the terms of reference changed it must be done in another forum. That is what I am saying.

It is entirely within the remit of this committee——

The terms of reference of the committee were agreed by the Dáil. I work under those and I will continue to work under them.

I was the chairman of a committee for six years and we sent a report to the Dáil seeking an amendment of our terms of reference, which was granted. I want this committee's support to seek the amendment of our terms of reference to inquire into this matter at arm's length and to make all these facts public. It is perfectly in order to seek to do that and it is also perfectly in order to mention this matter. If you do it outside the House, you are accused of one thing and if you do it when the Minister is absent you are accused of another. This is the proper place to do it when the Minister is present and has an opportunity to reply.

I would just like to remind the Deputy that if he is putting that down he needs to give notice to the committee.

I am giving notice of the motion now.

The Progressive Democrats will support Deputy Mitchell in this application to see the files. It would appear that the Tánaiste has had access to files as a result of which he has given general absolution to the Taoiseach and other Ministers in this matter. The public has a right to know on what basis he reached that general absolution statement. The public has a right to know the detail of the matters raised. Legitimate questions were put to the Minister for Justice as far back as April on this matter. If those questions had been adequately answered the present controversy might not have arisen. The refusal and the distraction policies used by the Minister for Justice in this matter has resulted in the controversy. It is in the public interest and a legitimate point of inquiry. This committee should have the wherewithal and power to order that these files be examined.

I hope that these contributions are not coming out of my allocation.

I support Deputy Mitchell's proposal. This is the proper committee to investigate this matter. It should not be the subject of investigation behind closed doors by members of the Cabinet who have their own interest in ensuring that the whole matter is hushed up. This matter is now in the public domain and this is the appropriate committee of the House to investigate it. Again, I appeal to you to facilitate members of the committee who want to have this matter discussed and seek a widening of its terms of reference to enable the investigation to be conducted in public by the appropriate committee of the House so that the public can form its own judgment as to what took place.

I support Deputy Mitchell. How seriously are we treating these committees in terms of discussing real information and cutting edge issues about which the public is concerned? This committee should be used to look at the information which Deputy Mitchell is requesting.

Nobody likes involving the family of a Minister or Deputy in public controversy. However, as I said, it is simply not on for the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste to hide behind the shield of decency which is conventionally observed. When the Taoiseach left office as Minister for Finance he was presented with a spanking new Jaguar, purportedly by his family, the same family which gained a substantial financial investment as a result of granting Irish citizenship to two Arabs. Does anybody seriously believe that a substantial increase in the worth of a company built up by Deputy Reynolds will not at any time benefit him, directly or indirectly?

What would Deputy Spring have made of this if the person involved was Charles Haughey and not Albert Reynolds? The presentation of a dagger to the Haughey family by an Arab leader was the subject of a major public controversy. Who are the directors of C and D Pet Foods Limited? Who are its real and beneficial owners? Have we come to the stage in Irish politics where a spade in no longer to be called a spade?

We are not discussing that issue. Will the Deputy give formal notification to include this matter on the agenda and I will put it to the committee?

I will not be muzzled.

Today's agenda has already been agreed. If the Deputy wishes to raise a matter I want proper notice so that I can inform all members of the committee.

I am informing the committee of a proposal for this committee to seek these powers and there is strong support for the committee having power to inquire into these matters. If the Government has nothing to hide why not put all the facts before the committee? The Tánaiste, Deputy Spring, has investigated; the Government is pretending to act as prosecutor, defence, judge and jury in a case in which it is also the accused. To nobody's great surprise it has found itself not guilty. This process is a parody of justice.

The committee should look into this. Justice must be done and seen to be done. If these files have nothing to hide and are available to the Tánaiste who has studied them at length apparently, let us have the files out in the open so we can examine them and, if necessary, exonerate those involved or point the finger if there has been impropriety. If this happened in the Judiciary there would be impeachments; members of the Judiciary simply would not behave in this way. However, a member of the Government can behave in this way without explanation and without being accountable to Parliament.

I want this committee to inquire into this matter and seek the powers to send for persons, papers and records. It is a simple proposal. I ask the committee to support the proposal——

I remind the Deputy again that there is no difficulty with that, but we need formal notice of the motion. The Deputy can raise this matter under the Justice Estimates but he has not done that.

I have; this is my opening comment.

If the Deputy wishes to change the terms of reference he can do so by a formal motion notifying the Chair. I am asking him to do so and he will not. He is taking advantage of the committee. He is entitled under the Justice Estimate to raise that matter but as regards the other aspects of what he is proposing, I want a formal motion to allow the Chairman to notify members that the matter is on the agenda.

I am proposing that the committee should seek these powers. I did not ask that the committee should vote on it but if the Chairman wishes I will do so. I am entitled to make a proposal, to seek the support of members for such a proposal and am determined to make sure that I am not deterred from doing it. This committee is the appropriate one to inquire into——

Under the terms of reference of the committee I am entitled to ask for formal notification if the Deputy wants to change the terms of reference to do what he wishes. He is not doing that.

I am giving notice now.

The Deputy has the opportunity under the Justice Estimates to raise the matters and he has not done so.

I am giving notice now.

I want formal notice and that is not formal notice.

This is my proposal and if the Chairman refuses to put it to the committee it is a matter the committee will have to look at.

It is not that I refuse to do so. I am observing the terms of reference of the committee. There are procedures for dealing with the business, of which the Deputy is well aware. If he wants adjustments to them there are procedures for doing so and formal notification should be given to the Chairman. That is what I am asking for.

I am not only giving the Chairman notice but I am giving the committee notice that I want it to seek these powers.

The entire committee is not present. There is a procedure for dealing with this to which the Deputy is not adhering.

All the committee members got notice of this meeting. If some are not here that is their problem. I am giving the committee notice that I am seeking these powers and there is obviously strong support here for seeking them. What have we got to hide?

There are procedures for dealing with that and the Deputy is not following them. An agenda was made out and agreed by the convenors. The Deputy is fully aware of it and I am not accepting the way in which this matter is being introduced.

I am giving notice to the committee that I want it to seek an expansion of its powers. If the Chairman is refusing to put that motion to the committee I will raise it some other way. I was flabbergasted to find that we do not have the power to do this under this Estimate. It should be done here and now.

It will not be done here and now because that is not the procedure. I need formal notice of changes. We have an agreed agenda and the Deputy now wants to change it. There are terms of reference for dealing with the business of this committee; I am adhering to them and the Deputy is not. I need formal notice of the Deputy's proposal to deal with it. There is no problem dealing with the matter when I have proper notice of it.

Is the motion being ruled out of order?

No. I am asking the Deputy to abide by the terms of reference and to give proper notice of this proposal to the Chair. When I get formal notice I will notify members of the committee that this issue is on the agenda and they will attend. It is not appropriate to do that this morning.

If I put the motion to the Chair in writing could we adjourn and summon the members for a meeting this afternoon to consider it?

I will not adjourn the meeting. We agreed the timetable at the start of the meeting but, unfortunately, the Deputy was not present.

I have the timetable in front of me.

The members of the committee present agreed with the terms of reference and the timetable. Halfway through a meeting I am not prepared to change what was agreed by those present. I am not prepared to adjourn the meeting. I will accept a formal notification and I will put it to the committee.

I was given 15 minutes to make my opening statement and I started to make it, but I have been harangued and harassed by the Chair trying to stop me making my opening comments.

The Deputy has not because if he had addressed——

If the Chair wants notice I will give it. Will the Chair allow the committee to consider the matter this afternoon when members have been notified? I am prepared to accept that; I will put the proposal now and the Chairman can call a meeting to consider it later.

The Deputy is fully aware of the situation having been chairman of a committee. Certain guidelines are laid down. I have to give proper notice to members. To suggest that I adjourn the meeting to facilitate the Deputy is not acceptable because it is not fair to other members.

May I have an undertaking that the Chair will, in the near future, call a meeting of the committee to consider this motion?

When I get the request I will deal with it.

I am making the request now.

I will give it consideration if the Deputy follows the formal procedure.

Will it be accepted? If I put this proposal and it is ruled out now will a meeting of the committee be called to consider it in the near future while the matter is current?

I have been Chairman of this committee for over 12 months and the Deputy has repeatedly complimented me at meetings on the manner in which I have conducted the committee's business.

I hope to be able to continue to do so.

I am sure he has confidence in my ability to make a mature decision on this matter.

On a point of order, do we have the power to order our business on this committee? Is it possible for the Chair, at the request of committee members, to order another meeting in the near future?

This matter relates to terms of reference which we do not have.

Do the terms of reference of this committee allow us to order its business?

We are being asked to discuss a change in the terms of reference to carry out certain functions which the present terms of reference do not allow. It is not a straightforward meeting as the Deputy puts it. The request will be dealt with in the normal way and I will convey my views to the members.

As I understand it we are allowed to order our own business. We are convened this morning to discuss the Estimates for the Department of Justice. Among the matters we are entitled to consider as part of the Estimates for the Department of Justice is the Department's responsibility for dealing with citizenship. The members of the committee have many detailed questions to ask the Minister about the way in which that area of her responsibility has been functioning. I will certainly want to ask questions on the specific case which has come to light in recent days. The detail we will want to go into in those questions before we decide whether we wish to agree to the Estimates will involve a considerable amount of time. It would be prudent if the Chair allowed the opening statements to be made.

When we discuss the aspect of the Minister's responsibility dealing with citizenship, it will first be necessary for this committee to put a series of questions to the Minister who may have to bring the information we seek back to this committee. Perhaps it may be necessary to have a further meeting to consider that. The discussion of the Estimates will permit us to question the Minister on issuing passports and the affair that has recently become a matter of public controversy. Will the Chairman clarify if we are entitled, under the present terms of reference of this committee and the discussion of the Estimates, to put specific questions to the Minister on the Masri affair?

It would have helped if we had proceeded with the business and questions of relevance of the Department of Justice could then have been asked. I have no difficulty with Members asking questions on this matter. I am sure the Minister could adequately deal with them. However, Deputy Gay Mitchell has requested something different altogether. There is a procedure for dealing with the matter by giving formal notice to the Chairman. If that had been done, there would not have been problems. I am not prepared to discuss this during a meeting. A notification proposing a meeting will be dealt with in the normal way.

Chairman, you have clarified one aspect. You ruled out Deputy Gay Mitchell's request, but when the Deputy asked if such a meeting would be convened if he gave formal notification, you hesitated in answering him. You have to deal with a formal application, Chairman.

I had no hesitation with that, Deputy. I got little co-operation this morning. If a formal request comes to me, it goes without saying that I have to deal it. Any issue relating to Justice could have been dealt with. Unfortunately, Deputy Mitchell wanted to go down another avenue not permitted by the terms of reference of this committee. The Deputy asked that a meeting be held to decide whether we travel that road. I will deal with this matter when the formal notification comes through.

Chairman, are you suggesting that, as a compromise, we can deal with this matter today by putting specific questions to the Minister for Justice under the relevant subhead dealing with passports and the administration of the Department of Justice as it relates to passports?

Members are entitled to deal with any issue on the agenda covered by the headings under discussion.

Is there not a time restriction on putting those questions and seeking clarification on certain matters?

That is a matter for the Members. We agreed on a timetable to assist Members. The meeting will end at 4 p.m., even if some other aspects of the Estimates are not discussed by then. This timetable was agreed by Members to ensure that all headings were discussed and Members could make a contribution. I can do nothing about it if Members spend all day on one aspect.

This morning, the Taoiseach denied the Tánaiste's statements last night about reviewing the system. There is a conflict between those statements.

Deputy, it is not within my remit to deal with the matter in this committee. The function of this committee is to deal specifically with the Estimates of the Department of Justice.

I will raise the matter under the relevant subhead.

Is the Chairman prepared to deal with a formal motion from Deputy Gay Mitchell when he receives it?

It is my duty to accept a motion from any Member. The matter will then be examined.

That is fair enough Chairman, will you also accept a motion from Deputy Gay Mitchell and others calling for this committee to be convened tomorrow or early next week to discuss this matter?

The matter will be dealt with when I get the motion.

What will be the procedure for Members to convene a meeting of the committee?

The convenors will decide when it will take place.

Will the convenor of the committee accept a motion from Deputy Mitchell calling for a meeting for some time next week?

That is a matter for the Chairman.

The motion will be submitted to me. The timing of the meeting will be decided between the convenors, in consultation with me.

Chairman, if you promise that the content of this motion will be considered fairly and impartially for consideration at an early meeting, I will not press the matter any further.

This committee is still in its infancy. There are limits to what this committee can discuss. The Government Whip indicated he is reviewing the efficacy of these committees and the need to extend them to accommodate other areas of Members' interests. At present, we are not empowered to do that. I support the Chairman's comments on agreeing to a set timetable to address the Votes of the Department of Justice this morning. It is only fair to adhere to that agreement.

Would it not have been unreal for the committee to meet without debating this subject? We would have been the laughing stock of the nation. It is up to the members of the committee to decide what they want to debate. If it is not on the agenda today and if the Chairman is prepared to consider Deputy Gay Mitchell's motion, will he then consider a further motion calling for the committee to meet either tomorrow or next Tuesday?

The formal procedure is that Deputy G. Mitchell will submit the question——

Surely the answer to my question is a simple yes or no.

Naturally, I have to acknowledge the request of a Member. Can we not proceed with the business proposed for today? Deputy G. Mitchell has agreed to submit his request for a meeting to discuss this matter and it will be considered.

Will it receive fair and impartial consideration?

Every decision I make is fair and impartial, and the Deputy knows that.

In that case, Chairman, I shall draft a formal request and submit it to you within the hour.

On the unprecedented high levels of violent crime in our cities and in rural areas, the Estimate provides the opportunity to condemn it and to propose specific strategies to alleviate it. People are tired of hearing about what is wrong and want to see results. In her opening statement, the Minister puts drug abuse and measures to counteract this high on her agenda. Will she confirm that the strength of the Drug Squad, numbering 27 members, has been diminished by a third due to administrative matters such as promotions or transfers? More crimes are becoming directly associated with drug abuse as many addicts need to feed their habit and thus resort to crime. More gardai need to be appointed to the Drug Squad to fill the gaps made by these administrative transfers and promotions, to enhance the force and give them more specialist and technical expertise, especially in their fight against drugs.

As regards the millions of pounds proposed to be spent on our prison system, it goes without saying that the system has been an abject failure. It is a waste of taxpayers' money to throw more funds at the problem without addressing the structural defects and lack of planning in the prison system. At present it costs £600 a week to keep one person in jail and the taxpayer is not getting good value for money.

The report of the visiting committee for the last three years indicates that the situation in Mountjoy, in particular, is unsustainable. The committee referred to it as a potential volcano and the latest report says it is an appalling vista. The Progressive Democrats believe that our prisons should be places of discipline and detoxification, instead of places where 80 per cent of the inmates do nothing all day. That is verified in the report of the visiting committee, which states they are encouraged to do nothing. There is no incentive for inmates to engage in the rehabilitation and educational projects which are available. In 80 per cent of cases, as verified in the Mountjoy report, they opt for inactivity. The report states that it is impossible to quantify the extent to which the drugs and HIV problem in Mountjoy are cultivated by daily aimless activity. We have evidence that prisoners are only waiting for their next fix. This is a complete waste of the taxpayers' money. It is inhumane for prisoners and does not help to rehabilitate them. We need a plan for our prison population, to find out why they are there and if they will commit a further offence when they are released. It should be taboo for juveniles to go to Mountjoy. The juvenile justice Bill is urgently needed.

Bail reform is urgently needed, and this is almost a truism at this stage. Because of the constitutional imperative at present, a person can only be refused bail if there is evidence they will intimidate witnesses or not turn up for trial. The Progressive Democrats believe it should be possible to refuse bail and that bail sureties should be related to the good behaviour of the accused as well as to his possible failure to turn up for trial. In other words, the bailsman would be liable to forfeit bail if the accused committed an offence while on bail. This simple measure would radically reduce the number of crimes committed when people are on bail.

We need a separate remand institution. At present, prisoners on remand are left among the general prison population. This causes overcrowding which means that people who have gone through the criminal justice system, found guilty and sentenced are released to make way for people on remand. People on remand are presumed innocent until proven guilty and it is ridiculous and senseless that they should be left with the general prison population. This causes overcrowding which means that convicted prisoners must be released early.

The delays in the courts system should be discussed under this Estimate. There is no need for the present delays in the system. Summary offences are dealt with six to 12 months after the event because of court listing problems. Appeals for summary convictions frequently take another six months. This is the Minister's direct responsibility. Trials on indictment normally take place 12 to 18 months after the event. The overhaul of the courts system and courts administration and the speeding up of the listing system will have a marked effect on our justice system.

Morale in the Garda Síochána is something which cannot be paid for in this— or any other — Estimate. It is low at present and we should be concerned about this. The excellent men and women in the Garda Síochána are feeling low, unappreciated and unrepresented by the Garda Representative Association. It is unfair to expect them to accept the criticism of and responsibility for the proper administration of the criminal justice system when their needs are not appreciated or addressed.

I have written to the Minister for Justice to ask her to intervene in a festering industrial dispute in the Garda Síochána. The Dublin members of the Garda Representative Association have been given a mandate to form a breakaway group in July. Deadlines have come and gone, but no acceptable mediator has been agreed between the disputing partners. A legitimate case could be made because there is a perceived under-representation of the larger divisions in the Garda Representative Association. That was identified and recognised in an independent report by Mr. Crotty, which was commissioned by the Irish Management Institute.

We must address this problem, which is of fundamental importance to the working conditions of the Garda Síochána throughout the country. The gardaí have no voice and because they are not part of an ordinary trade union cannot withdraw their labour, go to the Labour Relations Commission or to an independent mediator. It is the Minister's duty in the public interest to intervene and to ensure that they come back to the table to discuss the perceived under-representation of larger divisions in Dublin. They have a legitimate right to question the fact that a smaller rural division, representing 160 members, can have the same voice at the Garda Representative Association as a larger division representing 600 members in Dublin South. It is fundamentally wrong and it must be tackled because morale cannot be bought with the taxpayers' money. The Minister must address this issue.

I tabled a written parliamentary question to the Minster for Justice in relation to the Garda Complaints Board and I expect an answer this afternoon. I have asked the Minister what percentage of alleged complaints brought against individual members of the Garda Síochána have come before the Garda Complaints Board and what percentage of those complaints are vexatious or malicious. I also want to know what action is taken, if such a finding is made, to vindicate the good name of the garda. A complaint against an individual garda can take up to a year to investigate and during that time the garda is under suspicion, morale is reduced and it affects them taking on extra duties. They are afraid to take risks because a complaint may be lodged against them. If most of the complaints against a garda are vexatious, he should have a right to reply and his good name should be vindicated.

The Progressive Democrats also believe that victims' support is inadequate. I appreciate that the Minister has improved the contribution to the Irish Association for Victim Support and that is as it should be. However, we believe that the victims of crime have been the poor relation in the justice system. Compensation should be statutory. At present, we fully compensate victims of uninsured driving, yet we offer nothing to victims of rape or to elderly victims of assault. There is a compensation culture in Ireland, but this is not reflected in compensation to victims of crime. This is the weakest section of our community, which has no voice.

At present, victims are compensated for their medical expenses. Those healthy or young enough to work get compensation for loss of earnings. However, even those meagre gestures at compensation are delayed by up to 30 months. It often takes two years for an award to be announced by the Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal. It takes a further two and a half years for the Department of Justice to pay the money to a victim. This is a delay of almost five years from the time of the crime to the time the payment is made. The Minister must put the Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal on a statutory basis and use increased fines to pay part of the cost of compensating victims.

As regards the cost of the new prison in Castlerea and the criteria used when deciding where to site it, would it have been cheaper to build the new prison on a green field site beside Wheatfield prison? What criteria was used when deciding to site it in the west? Was there a difference in cost? I understand the existing building in Castlerea will have to transformed at considerable expense to make it suitable as a prison. What cost analysis was done in relation to that decision or was it a political decision to site in the west? I understand not many jobs will be created because those in the prison service in Dublin will be transferred.

The Progressive Democrats carried out a survey in Dublin South-Central last weekend which found that over 25 per cent of those surveyed had witnessed a crime or that a member of their family had been a victim of criminal activity in the past 12 months. Incidents of crime are on the rise and perception is as important as reality. The Minister said crime levels here are not as high as in Britain and other European countries, but we must deal with the sensitivities of the people to this. There is a marked increase in fear among citizens and it is the Minister's responsibility to take urgent action, but not on a five year plan basis. Simple administrative changes could be made, which would not cost a lot of money. That should be the first item to be addressed by the Minister.

The Progressive Democrats put forward procedural and administrative changes which would not cost a lot. I urge the Minister to continue the work. She is a good Minister and responsive to suggestions from the Opposition. All parties are at one in putting crime at the top of the political agenda because that is where it is with the people.

The Minister's Estimate covers a range of areas and, given the time available, it would not be possible to address them all so I will concentrate on a couple. I will refer to the aliens section in the Department of Justice dealing with naturalisation and citizenship, which has been the subject of controversy over the past couple of days.

A couple of months ago, I was one of a number of Deputies who asked the Minister questions about a suspected two tier system for granting naturalisation and citizenship but the Minister assured me there was not. The reason I asked was that there was speculation at the time that there was a facility whereby investors in this country could get citizenship more quickly than those entering or those who had already entered this country in other circumstances.

I am concerned — other members will have experienced this over the years — about people who have come to this country with their families, who have lived here for many years and apply to the Department of Justice for citizenship. In some cases their application is virtually ignored or put on the long finger, while in others, applications are treated with hostility. There are also widely reported examples of people coming to this country from oppressive regimes being turned back at our ports and airports and in some cases being locked up in prison for several months. In a number of cases people were put in prison for several months for no other reason than they had come here to seek asylum from an oppressive regime.

This country has not taken the most enlightened approach to citizenship, asylum and the rights of refugees in relation to other EU member states. It is ironic that at the time the Masri application was being rushed through the system, representatives of the Government attended a European Union meeting addressing proposals to allow emigrant workers to be joined by their families. Of the 12 member states, this country objected to the humane proposal that the spouses and children of emigrant workers should be allowed to join them in the EU. It is ironic that unfortunate people, many of whom may end up working in menial occupations, are treated one way, while those in a position to put large sums of money on the table are treated in a preferential way.

I do not propose to go into the case which has been the subject of controversy over the past couple of days, whose company it is, etc., because at this stage most people who are aware of it have made up their minds. However, I would like to deal with the principle behind the business investment scheme. We are placing a low stock on the concept of citizenship and on the value of our passport if we proposed to flog it around international markets to whoever is prepared to put money up front.

I am in favour of having an open approach to those who want to come to live and invest in this country and to facilitate them in every possible way. However, the information which has been made public over the past couple of days about the way this has been done, in particular the information my colleague Deputy Rabbitte put on the record in the Dáil, shows a squalid approach in dealing with citizenship and access to passports.

I would like to address a number of questions to the Minister, to which I hope she will respond. The Tánaiste announced that the business investment scheme is being reviewed, although there is some doubt about this. I would like the Minister to say whether the business investment scheme and the way it is used to facilitate the granting of citizenship is being reviewed. I would like to know the nature of that review and who will conduct it. Will it include an examination of the racist dimension to the whole scheme, referred to by my colleague in the Dáil two evenings ago where he quoted the document which was being flogged around the international business community which spoke about applicants of Chinese or Indian origin not being eligible for it?

If the scheme is being reviewed and, in view of the fact that it has now been brought into such public disrepute, will the Minister agree to suspend it until the review is completed? Will the Minister make information available to this committee in relation to the operation of the scheme, in particular as to how many passports have been issued under it, how many people have been granted citizenship, a list of the people who have been granted citizenship, how much they invested in this country and where they invested it? It would be very helpful if that information was made available to the committee.

In relation to the particular case that has been the subject of controversy, the Tánaiste has gone on public record stating he examined the file in relation to it. It seems to me that there is so much now in the public domain about the application that it would be appropriate for the Minister to make that file available to this committee so that examination of it — which the Tánaiste stated he has undertaken — can be undertaken by this committee.

It is important that the Minister responds because we are convened to approve the Estimates for her Department and in normal circumstances neither I nor other Members of this committee would have any great difficulty in agreeing them. However, given the very serious questions raised over the past couple of days, it would be very difficult for this committee to agree the Estimates for the Department of Justice until it is satisfied in relation to the whole passports for sale issue. I hope the Minister will be able to provide us with the information I seek.

I wish to refer briefly to the wider issue of crime which is the main concern of the Department of Justice. We need a radical re-examination of how the problem of crime is being addressed. I know the Minister is committed to tackling crime and that she has put measures before this committee and the House at various times in relation to that. There is, however, a vacuum that needs to be filled. There is no body at present which draws together the opinions and views of the various people involved in tackling crime and in its prevention.

This committee is the appropriate body to put together a comprehensive policy for tackling and preventing crime. Prior to the establishment of this committee and in the last Dáil a committee on crime was beginning to make progress, which produced a very good report on the area of juvenile crime which I hope will form the basis of the legislation the Minister is preparing in this area. This committee needs to address the wider issue of crime and how it should be tackled. It needs to be in a position to talk to the gardaí, to people from the probation and welfare service, the prison service, and so on who have views on the issue. It would be helpful to the Minister for Justice if this committee was enabled to do that over a period of time.

There is an undue emphasis in tackling crime on trying to find solutions. We are spending a lot of money on the Minister's crime package on prisons. Very substantial sums of money are being spent in providing additional prison places, additional staff for the prisons, all of which unfortunately, are necessary in the present climate.

As we are addressing the financial side of justice, we have to ask whether public money might be better spent in trying to prevent crime. There is a need for an investment by the State in communities. The State should give money to assist local communities and voluntary associations, many of whom are starved of resources, in communities which are working extremely hard to try to keep people, particularly young people, out of trouble. There is a need to provide those resources to local communities in order to help their work.

The problem of terrorist attacks in this State, unfortunately, has come back on the agenda and we have already addressed in the House the recent pub bombing in Dublin. It is ironic that that bombing occured virtually on the 20th anniversay of the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings which are still unresolved and the subject of considerable distress to the families of those who died or who were injured in those bombings.

I know the Minister has been examining this whole area following the Yorkshire Television documentary. I had hoped that she might have been in a position to make some positive statement as to what will be done about it to coincide with the 20th anniversary of the bombings. I do not know if she is yet in a position to make a statement on it and to tell us what progress is being made, but a number of very serious aspects of that case were raised in the Yorkshire Television documentary, in particular the virtually inexplicable cul de sac in which the gardaí wound up when they were attempting to investigate the bombings, when they clearly had suspects, when they brought their information to the RUC.

It would appear that north of the Border their attempts to investigate it were blocked and the then Minister for Justice made the unbelievable claim that he could not remember what had happened. It appears no attempt was made at the time to unlock the doors politically. I find it unbelievable that the gardai could, on a serious matter of this kind, the biggest carnage that occurred in this country during the whole troubles, while conducting a serious investigation, run into a stone wall north of the Border. I find it unbelievable that they would not have brought it to the attention of the Minister for Justice at the time and that the Minister for Justice at the time would not have made some attempt to try to unblock the whole situation.

Suspects were identified in relation to those bombings and we need to know what efforts, if any, have been made to bring them to justice? Given that various new extradition procedures have been put in place since 1974, can they be used to bring to trial in this jurisdiction people suspected of the 1974 bombings, identified by witnesses, suspected by the Garda and whom it wished to question at that time?

Regarding Vote 19, are there any questions?

Is the Minister prepared to answer questions on this Vote?

My function at this committee is to act responsibly and to answer questions regarding every aspect of the Votes for which I have responsibility. I have no difficulty answering questions.

On a point of clarification, under which subhead would it be appropriate to put questions regarding the passports issue?

I assume under subheads A.1 to A.8, dealing with administration.

Members of the committee canvassing in the European elections have found that many people regard the elections as irrelevant to their lives. It also appears that the Dáil has been irrelevant for some time. Perhaps the huge Government majority is a cause.

On matters of public concern it is important that answers are provided. While the Minister was not responsible at the time, she now holds office and should provide answers to questions. In view of the recently published Ethics in Public Office Bill, 1994, which places our partners under pressure, as if they were going to do something drastic, it is amazing that the situation where somebody is linked up with a Minister and his family is not considered a breach of ethics.

Who were the directors and the beneficiaries of the company involved? If partners in mickey mouse deals are asked to reveal their sources of income and so on, is it too much to expect that the family of a Minister should be asked to identify themselves on an issue such as this?

The fact that the then IDA appears to have been bypassed raises a question. Everybody welcomes money coming into the country for industry, and more of this kind of money is desirable given the high unemployment. The then IDA continually endeavoured to establish industries in the country and rejected schemes for various reasons. Why, therefore, would an investment of £1 million not be checked out by the IDA and cleared? It appears, however, it was not involved in the matter.

There are many conflicting stories about who knew whom and what was going on. It was said that the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Smith, had intimate knowledge of the applicant, although this has since been questioned. Did the Minister have this knowledge, and in what way did he know the applicant? If this incident took place on the Stock Exchange it would be regarded as insider trading. How can this behaviour be justified, therefore, by asserting that there was no involvement by the Government and that it is not a source of embarrassment?

It appears that the Ethics in Public Office Bill, 1994, will require people to declare any sources of additional income over £5,000. Most people will have nothing to declare. Despite these stringent requirements, the Government does not appear to be concerned with this issue, which deals with a far higher figure. There is something peculiar about the fact that a decision on this issue was made during the formation of the Government and in this respect the image of politicians suffers once again because it appears they are looking after themselves. It is an image which is grossly unfair, but the public is only waiting for the opportunity to denigrate politicians.

I require some information on these questions as it may throw some light on the subject.

I have no difficulty answering the questions. The only matter I have difficulty with is that there appears to be a suggestion that in some way I told lies to the Dáil regarding this issue, a suggestion which I understand neither Deputy Browne nor Deputy Gilmore is making. I find this very damaging, both to me personally and to the Department and office which I represent. The information which I have given to the Dáil, and which the Dáil has, I hope, accepted as the truth, is available on file in the Department. I will go through the file and endeavour to answer a number of questions raised by both Deputies.

Deputy Browne asked a number of questions in the Dáil this week regarding, for example, the identity of the directors and the beneficiaries of the company involved. I take it that the Deputy is not suggesting that, I, as Minister for Justice, should be aware of this information, because this is a private company. All the information regarding questions of that kind may be obtained from the Companies Registration Office and the company itself. Commercial questions of that kind should be directed to them. I cannot be expected to have responsibility regarding who may be the directors of the company, and it is not a function of the Department of Justice.

Section 16 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1956, which was amended in 1986 provides that the Minister for Justice, in absolute discretion can grant a certificate of naturalisation where the applicant has Irish associations. It has been the policy and practice of successive Governments to give favourable consideration to applicants for naturalisations in the case of persons making or facilitating substantial investments in the State where such investments have the aim of job creation or the preservation of jobs that might otherwise be lost.

The consistent view of successive Governments has been that by being prepared to make a substantial investment in jobs in this country, and by purchasing a residence in the country, applicants for naturalisation, assuming that there is no serious impediment to naturalisation on other grounds, should be deemed to have the Irish associations necessary for the grant of citizenship.

I understand that certain other countries follow a similar policy and I believe that it would generally be considered to be in accordance with the intentions of the Legislature and with the spirit of the legislation that we should, as a matter of normal practice, grant applications in such cases rather than refuse them, in the sure knowledge that the investment will go elsewhere. Indeed, this kind of scheme is operated by many countries, including member states of the EU. In fact, it appears that systems operated by other member states of the EU are far less rigid than the scheme operated in this country through the Department of Justice.

Many favourable naturalisation decisions were made over the years. In answer to Deputy Gilmore's question as to how many, I repeat an answer I gave in the Dáil that they would run at approximately 20 per year. Regarding the Deputy's question as to who was involved, the list of those who have been naturalised is published as a matter of course in Iris Oifigiúil, through which the names are available publicly.

The critical issue in all cases, including the issue which is the subject of public debate, is whether proper procedures have been followed and whether the standard regarding Irish associations, accepted by successive predecessors of mine and by successive previous Governments, has been met. The files of the Department on this case show that on 10 July, 1992, the managing director of a consultancy firm, the same firm which has submitted other and unrelated applications for naturalisation, forwarded an application for naturalisation to the Department of Justice on behalf of the two persons whose names are now in the public domain. The consultancy firm was DML, a matter which is now also in the public domain, and it submitted the applications through the Minister for the Environment. Where could anyone get the idea that he had intimate knowledge of the individuals involved? This was not mentioned by him, the Department of Justice or anyone else in authority during this debate. The position stated by me is that the original application was submitted through the Minister for the Environment. This is not abnormal. Ministers, apart from the Minister for Justice, Ministers of State and Deputies from all sides of the House submitted applications to the Department of Justice during the years this has operated.

The applicants in this case were a mother and her son. We clarified that the husband was not involved. The application, when it came to the Department of Justice, indicated that it was on foot of a substantial investment in a manufacturing company in the midlands and the name of the company was not stated. When the Department carried out the normal inquiries and investigations it makes into these companies, it transpired that the name of the company was C & D Foods. The company confirmed that the jobs were created and maintained and a letter dated 15 July 1992 from a large and reputable firm of solicitors in Dublin confirmed that a residence had been purchased in Dublin. Subsequently, on 25 November 1992 the two investors made the required declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State in the District Court in accordance with law and both of them were granted their naturalisation certificates on 15 December 1992.

There was nothing out of the ordinary or underhand about the way this application was dealt with. It was not unusual for the company which submitted the application on behalf of the individuals to submit it through another Minister. Such applications have often been submitted through other members of the Government, Ministers of State and Deputies from both sides of the House. Substantial job creation and investment was involved, there was a family investment in a residence and the declarations required by law were made in court. Several applications were granted by my predecessors in similar circumstances. From the day this application was submitted to the day a decision was made, representations were not made by the Taoiseach, Deputy Albert Reynolds.

The scheme operated from the beginning on the basis of substantial investment which succeeds in maintaining or creating jobs. There are several examples which I will not discuss now because it may be difficult for the Irish companies involved if their names are made public. There have been specific instances-workers, trade unions and managements in these companies would be able to confirm this-where jobs have been saved and created by such investments.

On whether this matter came to Government this case was never discussed by the Government. This is normal. None of the individual cases, of which there have been less than 20 per year since the scheme came into operation, went to Government during this period. These decisions are a matter of discretion by the Minister for Justice. Over the years I imagine there has been general discussion on the scheme, its operation and whether it should be extended. Without breaking Cabinet confidentiality, I can say a member of the Government once proposed that this type of scheme should be expanded to include investment in golf clubs. The Fianna Fáil Minister for Justice refused to accept this on the basis that the scheme was introduced to help existing jobs and to create new jobs. This would not be the case with golf clubs and for that reason, was not acceptable.

Last April, before this controversy arose, I initiated an inforaml discussion on this scheme at a Cabinet meeting. I recommended to my Cabinet colleagues who agreed, that an interdepartmental committee should be set up to look at the scheme. A number of applications were submitted to me since I became Minister for Justice and I made this proposal to the Cabinet because I felt we did not have the necessary expertise in the Department of Justice to make business decisons on investments of this type. In making recommendations, on such investments I wanted to have the benefit of information available through the Departments involved, such as the Department of Enterprise and Employment and Forbairt. I asked the Government for permission to set up a committee and this was given. The Departments of Finance, Foreign Affairs, Justice, Enterprise and Employment and Forbairt are involved as members of that committee. The committee's first task is to prepare the criteria for such investment. This is a positive task for the committee. After this, all applications will go the committee to be discussed and evaluated by it and it will then submit them to the Minister of the day.

I wish to clear up something very important said in the Dáil this morning. There was a suggestion that the Tánaiste stated that amended legislation would be introduced to deal with this area. The Tánaiste repeated what I said just now, that we set up an interdepartmental committee whose first task is to produce criteria or terms of reference, which will be published shortly, for the examination of investment proposals. There is no difference between what the Tánaiste said and Dáil statements that no legislation is promised in this.

It was suggested that a section of the Ethics in Public Office Bill could be amended. I am in favour of this if it is felt that a section of the Bill- we will have a lengthy, full and comprehensive debate on it-can be amended to include this type of investment procedure which may affect a Member of the Oireachtas, a member of the Government, a public servant at a high level or anyone else covered by the Bill. The Government and I would have no difficulty with this. I took the unusual step of showing the file to the Tánaiste yesterday. His subsequent statement indicates that I presented a full and accurate picture to the Dáil. Neither of the two Deputies here are suggesting I did not do so. There was noting to hide. As far as the Government is concerned, the matter is now closed. Two matters were the subject of comment inside and outside the Dáil and have implications far beyond the boundaries of the case in hand. I accept that the statements to which I will refer were made in the heat of debate and I do not want to imply that they reflect the more considered views of the Members who made them.

It grates when I hear Deputy Gilmore refer to the emigration and citizenship division as the aliens division. As I said already in the Dáil when I started in the Department I hated the name aliens division because it implied something that I did not particularly like. We revamped the division and it is now called the emigration and citizenship division, which is far better.

Both I and my officials, including those working in the emigration and citizenship division, are gravely concerned about the suggestion that they operate a racist policy when dealing with naturalisation applications. That allegation was made in the Dáil yesterday. The officials concerned are not in a position to answer such allegations themselves and it is my duty to nail that lie.

The suggestion made by one Deputy that people of Indian origin are not granted naturalisation on racist grounds is without foundation. Several people of Indian origin have been granted naturalisation as indeed have people of Pakistani origin, another nation against which the Department allegedly discriminates. These people were not granted naturalisation on the basis of investment, at least not in my time in the Department, for the simple reason that there were no qualifying investment proposals from people of Indian or Pakistani origin. It is manifestly ludicrous to suggest that we would refuse naturalisation to an Indian investor while having no difficulty in granting naturalisation on other grounds.

One of my fears when this debate began was that a racist element would creep into it. I had included a reference to the possibility in my original speech to the Dáil but took it out lest its very mention would produce the result I feared. I now feel obliged to assure non-Irish nationals who may be worried about the matter that our naturalisation and citizenship laws are operated fairly and not by reference to racist considerations.

The second lie that needs to be nailed is the suggestion that the file I showed to the Tánaiste yesterday was incomplete or tampered with. I and the officials of the Department of Justice are more conscious than most that it is a criminal offence to tamper with or destroy official documents. The file given to the Tánaiste was the complete file which had been in the Department since these applications were considered.

The file includes all relevant manuscript notes of offcials and every single piece of paper that was attached to the file in the normal way since it was opened. I am sure it is not the first time the Tánaiste read an official departmental file. He is not so lacking in wit as to be unable to judge where a gap exists. Neither am I so stupid as to present to the Tánaiste or anybody else a file with gaps or which had been doctored. If anybody was in a position to produce evidence that this had happened it would spell the end of official and political careers.

In showing the file to the Tánaiste I took what I described as an unusual step. It is usual in my Department and others to operate an absolute rule regarding the privacy rights of individuals. It is simply not the practice to discuss individual applications or disclose details which applicants give in confidence.

In this case however, because of the extraordinary circumstances which had developed and because the family itself was being left open to criticism, I felt justified in showing that file to my colleague in Government, the Tánaiste. Nobody else in Government or outside the Department of Justice has seen the file. It is important that the family concerned know this.

The Minister accepts that extraordinary circumstances led her to release the file to the Tánaiste at his request. "Extraordinary" is a mild description; it is bordering on GUBU at this stage. In light of her acceptance of the extraordinary nature of the case, may I ask the Minister five questions?

Following her investigation of the files, does the Minister believe that the Masris were ever resident in Ireland on a bona fide basis? Does she believe they intend to become Irish residents? Does the Minister think it proper for an investment consultant to arrange a loan to the Taoiseach's family in the hope of establishing Irish citizenship for foreign lenders or that it is ethical or acceptable for her to grant citizenship to foreigners in exchange for a loan to the family business of the Taoiseach without a public declaration?

These questions were not satisfactorily answered today or in the Dáil yesterday. The Minister and the Government are engaging in collective self-delusion if they believe the matter is closed. This committee and the public require answers to several questions. Many of the matters which are the source of allegation may not be illegal at the moment but they certainly will be if the Ethics in Public Office Bill is passed.

The Tánaiste has engaged in optics and posturing. I do not know how he can say the matter is closed after his cursory investigation of the matter when so many questions are unanswered. I ask the Minister to answer specifically the questions I asked.

The final question is really a matter of common sense and one which an ordinary member of the public might ask. Even those who have no knowledge of the legalities or illegalities of this scheme would consider it strange that out of the 20 admitted applications per year under this scheme, one of them involves the private business of the Taoiseach's family. Is it not strange that out of 20 such applications, one is directly related to the firm in which the Taoiseach's family members have a beneficial interest? Those are questions which the ordinary punter in the street would ask and they have not been responded to by the Minister.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I welcomed this scheme originally. I questioned two things and the Minister did not answer the question I really wanted her to answer. Was the IDA bypassed?

The Minister said she was not obliged to establish the identity of the directors of a company. If citizenship is granted to somebody who gave £1 million to a company, is the Minister's duty to establish if there was any conflict of interest involving a member of Government. It blows the Ethics in Public Office Bill, 1994, out of the water. This is being treated in a casual fashion. It is as if it is no cause for embarrassment that a Minister's family would be involved in getting £1 million where citizenship was granted. Did the application meet the IDA's standards and, if not, why did it go through?

I never questioned anyone's integrity with regard to the file. However, there are official and unofficial documents; there are chats over cups of tea and chats after meetings and negotiations. A variety of things can happen. While the Tánaiste, Deputy Spring may be as sharp as the Skibbereen Eagle, nothing out of order would appear in any file in the Department.

That does not answer how the Taoiseach's family were involved. Nobody seemed to know and it did not seem to matter. We are now fussing over partners in the Oireachtas who have almost nothing to declare and yet are held up to scrutiny. Was it not bordering on insider trading? The public are asking how this could happen in Government? That question should be answered.

I have a number of questions arising from the Minister's response. She stated that the original application, which I understand was made on behalf of the two applicants by the Minister for the Environment, did not identify the company in which the investment was being made. When applications are made under the business investment scheme, is it normal that the company is not identified on the application? It is rather odd that somebody who makes an application on the basis of an investment in job creation——

It should raise questions.

——would not at least identify the company in which the investment is being made.

Since the application was made by the Minister for the Environment, did he know the identity of the company in which the investment was being made? If he did, why did he not identify it to the Department of Justice when the application was made?

The Minister said that following normal investigation, it was established that the company was C & D Foods. Could she explain what that normal investigation specifically involved? Was the IDA consulted on the company and asked for its views on the investment? If the IDA gave views on the investment, what were their views?

I understood from the Minister's statement that the company confirmed this was a substantial job creation investment. How many jobs were created? What was the verification process in that regard? The Minister also stated that the consultancy firm which initially forwarded this application had previously submitted other similar unrelated applications. Will she make available to the committee the list of the applications by that consultancy firm and say how many were granted?

These questions relate to the specific case which was the subject of controversy. On the interdepartmental committee, which has been established, are its terms of reference available to the Minister? She spoke generally about this in terms of examining the criteria but has the interdepartmental committee received formal terms of reference? If the committee has been established, can the Minister state its members and who is represented on it? If it has commenced work, how many meetings has it held? When is it likely to complete its work and when will a report be made? Specifically, will the Minister suspend the business investment scheme pending the report of the interdepartmental committee and whatever action she feels will be necessary arising from that report in view of the concerns recently expressed?

On what the Minister refers to as the racist allegation, I do not know if she was referring to the document that Deputy Rabbitte read into the record.

I was referring to a specific allegation by a prominent member of the Opposition yesterday against me and departmental officials.

To clarify this point, it was not Deputy Rabbitte's intention to reflect on the Minister or the officials. However, since the matter has been raised and the document to which Deputy Rabbitte referred clearly expressed racist views as to who might qualify for citizenship under this scheme, what action does the Minister propose to take in this regard or on the practice whereby some consultancy firms have been flogging the prospect of Irish citizenship to prospective investors around the world? Apparently, they have been doing so on the basis of the type of document to which Deputy Rabbitte referred.

On a point of order the consultant whose racist comments were included in a document read into the record of the House by Deputy Rabbitte should now be named by him so that the Department of Justice will never again entertain submissions from a consultant who would include such terms as part of the procedure to qualify for consideration under the scheme. Perhaps it was a fictitious document.

It is a matter for Deputy Rabbitte to make a statement in the House.

I am sure Deputy Gilmore will debate the issue. It is a serious matter that a consultant representing this country in a scheme for investment from abroad would tout that type of untrue condition. The Minister adequately clarified the matter. It is now up to Deputy Rabbitte to put the record straight.

I shall convey to Deputy Rabbitte that Deputy Lawlor shares his deep concern about this matter.

We have run over time. We agreed a timetable and the time for Vote 19 has been exceeded. I hope we can draw this to a conclusion. Deputy Callely has indicated his wish to speak and I will then ask the Minister to respond.

It is important to introduce a little balance to the debate. I understand we are discussing a matter which comes under the 1956 Naturalisation Act, which was amended in 1986. It covers a broad spectrum of people who may apply for naturalisation and discretion basically rests with the Minister. I am sure many public representatives have contacted the Department of Justice and the Minister about naturalisation applications.

One application has been politicised and unfortunately, a company associated with the Taoiseach. There are a couple of questions one would like to ask about the debate. A number of people spoke about job creation and asked how many jobs were created. That matter was discussed during the week when it was said that consideration is given to job creation or sustaining present employment numbers. We should have a balanced attitude in considering whether ten or 100 jobs were created or if it was simply a matter of sustaining existing employment in an area of the country that requires every effort to sustain and create jobs.

I am also concerned that people in public life or their spouses or family who might aspire to holding office — as most politicians do — will have to look over their shoulders continuously. In view of the way in which this matter was politicised, are we saying that a person who has an innovative, entrepreneurial approach in building up Irish business should not have it if they intend to enter politics?

I wish to bring balance to this argument. I spoke to a number of small business entrepreneurs in my constituency in the days since this controversy started. The feedback is quite negative towards people who are opportunistic in the face of a situation that is seen to be transparent.

We are discussing the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1956, which was amended in 1986. I am pleased that the Minister, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, had researched the naturalisation issue area and that she had, prior to this controversy, established an interdepartmental committee to look at applications that come before the Minister for Justice. I am also pleased that she will seek the interdepartmental committee's views on such applications. It is important to recognise the fact that she took that course of action prior to this controversy.

The final speaker is Deputy McDowell. I want to dispose of Vote 19 before we adjourn at 1.15 p.m.

If the Minister for Justice was about to issue a passport or certificate of naturalisation in respect of an investment in his or her company, he or she would have to comply with the provisions of the new Ethics in Public Office Bill and declare that interest. That is the proposed procedure in the Bill. The reason, I presume, is that these transactions must be both transparent and demonstrated to be above board and not done quietly and secretly. That is the purpose of the new Bill.

Section 14 of the proposed Bill — which we are not debating today — does not make it necessary for one member of the Government to declare the interest of another member of Government in a decision which is about to be made. That is a major drawback to the Bill. It means that one member of Cabinet can make a decision which he or she is bound to declare when they are dealing with their own affairs but they are not obliged to make any declaration of interest when they are dealing with the affairs of another member of Cabinet.

Regardless of the bitterness and recrimination of the last few days, the Minister will agree that it is most unsatisfactory that a Minister in one Department can make a decision which radically affects the welfare and, perhaps, personal wealth of another member of Cabinet without the public being assured that there is a mechanism in place to deal with that apparent conflict of interest. A child, let alone an inexperienced lawyer, could drive a coach and four through the proposed changes in the law as it stands. I make that point without acrimony or bitterness. It is not politicising the issue to say as much. It is time that this massive defect in the proposed Bill was confronted.

The Taoiseach was the first Taoiseach ever to disclose his interests. What happened Dessie and his partner?

I am not trying to be acrimonious, Chairman. There is no point in heckling.

That is a change.

I am not trying to be acrimonious. I am making a constructive point.

It is about time.

The Taoiseach's bodyguards are here.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): A while ago the Deputy asked us to leave it.

I ask Deputy Callely to refrain from interrupting.

I did not interrupt Deputy Callely.

The Deputy has been frothing at the mouth for the last two days.

Minister O'Malley omitted in the Tara Mines issues to make the same declaration.

I am asking for the co-operation of Members. The Minister has dealt at length with this issue and we are discussing Vote 19.

I made one point and I wish to make another. The Taoiseach told Members of the Opposition to address their questions to the company. The financial controller of the company said in a radio interview of which I have the transcript, that he was first approached by somebody offering an investment of this kind in September 1991. Can the Minister indicate whether any further citizenship applications were made in respect of any further investment in that company or any related company? Is that the only application made in respect of that company? The Minister can answer "yes" or "no" and I will accept her answer.

The answer is no. I have checked with my officials. They have seen no further application in respect of investment in that company or a related company.

In relation to the point made by Deputy McDowell, I am sorry he was not here earlier. I told the committee that in relation to the ethics Bill——

(Interruptions.)

He was in the other House.

Deputy McDowell comes here, leaves after five minutes and three hours later comes back——

The Minister, without interruption.

(Interruptions.)

He was in the Law Library.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Where was Deputy Fitzgerald?

The bodyguards.

It is on the record how often you go down there.

It is on the record how often Deputy McDowell goes to the Law Library.

The Deputy was with me before lunch.

That allegation should be withdrawn.

I am not making an allegation. I am asking a question.

(Interruptions.)

I have the democratic right to ask questions just as insinuations can be made by Deputy McDowell.

Deputy Fitzgerald, please refrain from interrupting the Minister.

It is typical of the arrogance from that quarter and that is why they are sinking fast.

A reshuffle must be imminent.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Fitzgerald, please refrain from interrupting the Minister. I ask for the co-operation of Members.

They have been frothing at the mouth for the last two days.

Before Deputy McDowell came in, I said that if the Ethics in Public Office Bill, 1994, requires amendment to include those areas the Deputy mentioned, the Cabinet, the Government and the Minister responsible for the Bill will have no difficulty with inserting a relevant provision. Then if one Member of Government is dealing with matters which affect another Cabinet Member, there will be a mechanism in the Bill to cover those circumstances.

The residency requirement was raised by Deputy O'Donnell. Applicants are required to display an intention to reside in the State for a reasonable period of time and they must do this at the time of the application. There is no mechanism whereby we bind someone by contract to spend all of his or her time in this country. We ask for the best indication, in that applicants are required to purchase a residence — all Governments have this requirement. That was done in this case.

A question was asked about a loan to the Taoiseach's family and whether this was right or proper. It would be unfortunate if someone who became involved in Government gave up and management and direct control of a company and then that company was treated less favourably than other private companies with which it is in competition.

One can look at this in another context. If someone involved in a large solicitor's practice became a member of Government he would retire from direct involvement in the practice. That company could apply under the criminal and civil legal aid scheme to represent someone in court and receive payment through the scheme. It would be unfortunate if that firm of solicitors was discriminated against and not allowed to participate in the scheme because a Government member was formerly involved in the company. I do not think anyone is suggesting that should happen. If it were the case, people of that calibre would be slow to accept positions in Government.

In answer to Deputy Gilmore, I made clear the original application from the people concerned was submitted in the normal way. It was sent to the Department of Justice via the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Smith. I made clear that he did not make the application but there is still some confusion on that point. The regular procedure for these applications is that members of Government or of the Dáil hand the application to the Minister for Justice or the Department. Nothing unusual occurred in this case.

I said the name of the company was not known at the time of the original application. That is normal.

The application came in after the investment was made.

Then how could there be any doubt about it?

There is no question on the form asking specifically what company or where the investment is made.

What was left blank?

Nothing was left blank.

Then no question was asked?

I ask the Minister to say that more slowly for Deputy McDowell. It does not seem to be sinking in.

It is important that everyone knows there is no specific question on the form on that issue. In all these cases the Department follows up the original application and finds out that relevant details. That would include how much money was being invested; the name of the company in which the money was being invested; the number of jobs being created; the background of the family and the various enquiries the Department of Justice would normally make about anyone applying for naturalisation; and any State involvement.

The consultants who made the application on behalf of the company involved told the Department the IDA had supported the project undertaken by C & D Foods Limited. There was no necessity to go to the IDA again because it had been confirmed on the file. The officials in the Department of Justice were satisfied there was State involvement.

I will not give the date because I do not have the file with me and I do not want Deputy McDowell to say I said one day and meant another. That would be totally inadvertent, as he knows. Prior to making an investment in C & D Foods or applying for naturalisation, this family and its associates had met with officials of An Bord Tráchtála to discuss proposals to purchase materials, specifically foodstuffs I understand, in this country. They were here before investing in C & D Foods and before applying to the Department. They were interested in doing business with this country and because it was a trade matter ABT met with them.

To clarify this again, there is no question of the Department of Justice or the Minister granting naturalisation to someone without knowing where and in which company the investment is being made.

Deputy Gilmore asked if the consultancy firm had been involved before. I have confirmed that they had submitted applications on behalf of various people under different Governments. He also asked if I would make available the list of applications made by the firm. That would be a total breach of confidentiality. As I said in the Dáil and elsewhere, the list of those who have been naturalised is published in Iris Oifigiúil as a matter of course. That is a matter of record from the beginning of the scheme’s operation.

They are not differentiated from normal naturalisations.

One person on the list might be the wife of a surgeon and another case might be investment related but the public would have no hint as to which was which.

No differentiation is made.

Is that not undesirable?

The interdepartmental committee may recommend that when names are published in Iris Oifigiúil in future, there should be a differentiation. I have no difficulty with that; I would welcome it because it would bring the transparency which eveyone wants.

Is it possible to identify now those who were naturalised under this scheme? There was an average of 20 per year.

That is not appropriate to discussion of the Estimate.

It is not possible. What goes into Iris Oifigiúil is that which is prescribed under the Act, which is the name of the person, the address——

Most of the address.

——and whether the person is a minor or an adult. The interdepartmental committee may well recommend that we identify this type of naturalisation. The Department and I have no difficulty with this because it would provide the transparency people are seeking and for which I established the committee.

The racist consultants——

I understand the company said the number of jobs created was 40. I may not have given that information to the House when we discussed this matter. I think that answers all the questions.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I asked a question twice and would like it answered before a latecomer asks another. Was the IDA consulted?

I answered that a minute ago.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): The Minister mentioned An Bord Tráchtála.

I am sorry if the Deputy did not hear me. I said that in the course of the normal investigation of the file, the question of State involvement is investigated by the Department. The consultancy firm confirmed that the IDA had grant aided the overall project.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): The consultancy application stated that fact, but the Minister said there was no need to check this with the IDA.

No, because it was stated in black and white.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Are the true facts stated in every application which the Department receives? Does the Department check anything? If someone states in a form that the Government or some group has approved an application, does the Department check it?

This is a detailed procedure. All information must be in order for it to be accepted by the Department of Justice. Any of the Deputy's colleagues who may have been previous Ministers for Justice will tell him there is no better Department in the country for checking and double checking things to ensure they are factually correct and above board.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Did the IDA sanction this?

The IDA grant aided the overall project for the company.

My question relates to a conflict of interests. Does the Minister agree it is inappropriate for a Member to discuss legislation and to promote amendments on the floor of the House, while acting in a legal capacity for an organisation with vested interest in the legislation?

I will relieve the tension by saying that ignorant question concerns me.

It is far from being ignorant. It is factual and accurate.

I spoke twice in the House and I notified the Minister in advance.

That does not make it right.

On both occasions I was careful to say I had an interest in the matter.

Mr. Lawlor: The Deputy should not make a case on the floor of the House if he has an interest in the matter because he is collecting fees.

Any member of Dublin Corporation with a conflict of interests absents himself from such matters.

What about Deputy McCreevy?

Deputy O'Donnell knows this.

Is it in order for Deputy McDowell to collect fees from an organisation and to promote their amendments on the floor of the House? It does not matter if he declared this. It is incorrect for him to do so; it is a conflict of interests.

In fairness to Deputy McDowell, I should say that I spoke to him before he came into the meeting. He made grave allegations against myself — although I am not as concerned about those because I can fight my own corner — and against officials in the immigration and citizenship division of the Department.

That is disgraceful.

The secretary of the Department of Justice and all the officials are gravely concerned that it should remain on the official Report of Dáil Éireann that the Department of Justice operates a racist policy against people of Indian and Pakistani extraction. I said that Deputy McDowell probably made those statements in the heat of the debate and that if he had been able to consider what he was saying he would not have said them. As far as the secretary of my Department and all the officials are concerned, it is important for Deputy McDowell to have an opportunity to state that this was said in the heat of the moment and that he was not making serious allegations against the officials.

For the benefit of the Minister and her Department officials, I refer them to the Minister for Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Quinn, in relation to this matter.

That is not good enough. Deputy McDowell made a specific——

The Minister will not get an apology from Deputy McDowell because he is a small man.

——allegation in relation to racist policies in the Department of Justice. I have the Official Report of Dáil Éireann with me. The Secretary and the officials in the immigration and citizenship division of the Department, some of whom are sitting behind me today, feel, as I do, that they are owed an apology from Deputy McDowell for saying what he did in the heat of the debate.

Deputy McDowell is aware of the Minister's views because they are on the record. I propose to suspend the sitting for one hour. We will resume at 2.25 p.m.

Before business is suspended, the Minister has requested Deputy McDowell to apologise and he is refusing to take this opportunity.

Deputy McDowell knows what was said this morning and it is up to him to respond. He has not responded, therefore I am not entering a debate about it. We will resume at 2.25 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 1.25 p.m. and resumed at 2.25 p.m.

We will proceed to subheads A.1 to A.8 of Vote 20, Garda Síochána.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Could I refer to the old chestnut of gardaí on the beat? The ushers walking around the Dáil exert a certain amount of control over those who come in. Teachers walking around a playground — both the Minister and I have done this — cause a certain amount of fear. Discipline and good behaviour are important. The absence of the gardaí from the streets is a drawback.

Although civilian secretarial staff is available, why does the system tie up garda time filling in forms? Why are gardaí not free to be on the streets? Gardaí are nearly becoming a tourist attraction at this stage, although one sees them in squad cars. It is not their fault that the system ties up their time in court, where they send a lot of time, particularly if cases are postponed. Could the Minister or the Commissioner come up with a system whereby gardaí could be seen on the streets? Gardaí should be on the streets not as a threat to people, but as a reminder to young people congregating in groups.

The ushers in the Dáil and teachers ensure a certain amount of decorum and it is important to see gardaí on the streets, particularly in small towns in rural areas where some Garda stations have been closed. One may travel through towns from here to a by-election in County Mayo and never see a garda on the street. That is a serious drawback and the system should be changed to allow gardaí to be seen.

I support points made by Deputy Browne. As he acknowledged, I have said time and time again that it is my policy to have more men and women from the Garda Síochána on the beat, walking around and being a visible presence on the street. Deputy Browne was correct when he said the presence of the Garda Síochána is preventative medicine for young people, who might be inclined to get involved in crime. It makes them think twice and prevents them from going down that road. It also brings back the level of respect Deputy Browne and I and people of our generation had, and still have, for gardaí.

Deputy Browne asked why are there not more gardaí available. There are a number of answers to that question and the Deputy answered one himself. A ludicrous situation exists where in any one day at a District Court sitting in this city upwards of 15 gardaí sit outside the courtroom waiting for their case to be called because they do not know whether the case before is going to collapse, be settled or otherwise. That is a major drawback and, indeed, the Garda Commissioner and senior management support me in this regard. I will introduce legislation in the autumn which will deal with the situation so that fewer gardaí will spend time in court and only certain ranks will go to court, in so far as it is possible.

Over the years more gardaí have become involved in administrative and paper work in Garda stations. That happened because we did not have a facility of civilianisation as in other agencies. It was only in recent years that people began to look seriously at the administration area and decided that something should be done about civilianisation. That process has started and we have several hundred civilians doing work which gardaí previously did. We all accept that there will be situations which only a member of the Garda Síochána can deal with. However, it is not necessary that gardaí should do a vast amount of administrative work. We have already gone down the road of civilianisation. Provision has been made for more civilians to do administrative work and release gardaí to go out on the beat where we would like to see them.

I would like gardaí to become involved in community initiatives. Last night I visited a project in north Clondalkin which has received EU funding and substantial funding from my Department. The gardaí, including the superintendent, the inspector and sergeant were also there. There is room for more involvement by members of the Garda Síochána in such initiatives. They are involved in juvenile liaison schemes and sporting organisations in the community, but more specifically they should get involved in initiatives which give young people a challenge other than getting involved in crime. It is important for young people to have something to do to fill in their free time and we have encouraged this.

Deputy Browne mentioned rural garda stations. In 1991 one of the main reasons the Commissioner recommended a change in policy in relation to rural policing was the results of a survey carried out at that time. The survey found that in many of the rural stations where a garda was based for 12 hours each day that person only dealt with one or two callers to the station and maybe one telephone call each day. The Commissioner felt that that garda's time would be better occupied if he or she was available to police the community they served rather than being inside a building all day. That was the basis for the change in rural policing.

It was re-evaluated in 1992 and 1993 and certain other changes were made each time. This will be re-evaluated again at the end of the year and I have no doubt that further changes will be made. When I go around the country to the different divisions, I find that in some it is working well, particularly in Deputy Browne's constituency of Carlow-Kilkenny, but in other areas there have been hiccups. These hiccups often relate to the hours Garda stations are opened to the public, which do not suit the community. The divisional officer and superintendent in each district is responsible for working out the most appropriate hours for the Garda station to be open so that they suit those who need to do business in the station.

Questions were raised in relation to rural policing because of recent events. As I said in the Dáil, all questions in relation to that incident — we will not go into it today — will be answered in the course of any inquiry or investigation with takes place. Some 700 civilians are already in place doing work which 700 gardaí were doing before. Each time we employ a civilian, we release a garda on to the street. I support that.

On a point of order, has the Chairman received further communication from Deputy Gay Mitchell? Could the Chairman indicate the nature of that communication?

I will deal with that matter shortly.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I welcome what the Minister has said. Although a garda may receive only one call each day, he may be in a small station like Hackettstown, where a delegation met the Minister. There is a need for Garda stations in small towns and villages. Even if gardaí are not on the street, they control the area around them. Those coming from Dublin in stolen cars are given a free run if there are no gardaí to stop them on the way. Manning levels in large villages or small towns needs to be reassessed.

The Garda Commissioner, but particularly divisional officers—the chief superintendent in any division is responsible for deciding manpower levels in a Garda station — regularly review the number stationed in an area, even without a deputation to me, but particularly after a deputation because I am obliged to pass on comments to the Commissioner. The Commissioner no longer has the power to direct a garda to live in the area where he or she is stationed. I cannot give the exact date that power was given up but it was relinquished by the Commissioner as a result of strong representations from the various representative associations. I am approached on a regular basis by Deputies who say there should be a sergent and two gardaí responsible for their area but they are commuting from 20 or 30 miles away. Unfortunately, that will remain the position because the Commissioner no longer has the power to direct a sergeant, a superintendent, an inspector or anyone else to live in the area in which they are stationed.

In some cases the garda will live in the area and in others the garda will live outside it. We cannot change that now, but I accept that Garda management has to evaluate the number of gardaí based in areas. From time to time in different counties large volumes of people can arrive for festivals or other events and it is important that the divisional officer should have the power to transfer extra members on a temporary basis — three or four days or a week — to police an area where there might be a large volume of people. For example, this could apply to seaside towns during the summer. It is important that the divisional officer should have that power.

In my opening statement I put some questions to the Minster, particularly in relation to the strength of the drugs squad. Will the Minister tell us if it is true that the drugs squad has been reduced by nine people because of transfers or promotions and is in need of rebuttressing to bring the squad up to a desirable level? Will the Minister also respond to my question about the festering dispute in the GRA which reflects on the morale and the welfare of the individual members of the Garda Síochána? I have raised this matter with the Minister with a view to her intervening to agree a suitable mediator in this matter.

I also asked a question in relation the Garda Síochána Complaints Board, as to how many of the complaints against individual members of the Garda were found to be vexatious and without foundation, and what action was taken to vindicate the good name of the gardaí involved. I would also like to raise the issue of the role of the Garda in liaising with health boards in relation to the mandatory reporting of cases of alleged sexual abuse when they come to the attention of the Garda. Is it true that at present there is no obligation on the Garda to report any suspicion to the health board? Will the Minister agree that there is a need for a formalised procedure to be put in place by the Garda to liaise with the health board in such matters?

As the Members are aware I received notice of a motion from Deputy Gay Mitchell in relation to holding a special meeting. There are two clauses in the motion; first, to extend the powers of the committee to send for persons, papers and records etc.; second, to conduct a full inquiry.

In regard to the first, the terms of reference of the committee are those set by the Dáil on the establishment of the committee and it is only the Dáil, by way of formal resolution, that can change the terms of reference. It is, of course, open to the committee to request the Dáil to extend its terms of reference. It is a matter for the committee in the first instance as to whether this course of action should be pursued. In regard to the second clause, the establishment of an inquiry is clearly outside the terms of reference of the committee and is out of order. Accordingly, the motion as worded is out of order as submitted.

Would it be in order to raise this matter by way of substantive motion in the Dáil in Private Members' Time?

That is a matter for the Dáil, not for the committee.

We are only dealing with the matters for the committee. I am just ruling on the motion put here.

We will raise it in the Dáil.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): In fairness to Deputy Mitchell, he asked to raise the matter and the Chairman said that if got a formal application he would consider it. The Chairman has made a decision on the spot as to its being out of order. Apart from this matter, the committee has objected before when it wanted to call a Garda superintendent before it and found that it could not. We have already asked for this review to take place and we must make some effort to give ourselves power to call people before the committee. We should be making a case to the Dáil to give us those powers, irrespective of any current political innuendo. We must have some power. If we reject this we are saying we are happy to be dead ducks with no power.

Is it the terms of the motion that the Chair is rejecting or the motion in its entirety?

The motion as presented is out of order.

In other words, the Chair would accept another motion.

We are all aware of the intent of Deputy Mitchell's motion even if it is not so worded. Is the committee in favour of seeking to extend the committee's terms of reference so that it can consider the matter? I am putting that to the committee. I was accused this morning of not acting correctly but I did act correctly. I gave Deputy Mitchell an opportunity and the motion as presented is not in order. If the committee wishes it can have a special meeting regarding this matter. I put that to the committee.

Bearing in mind that there is a Government majority on this committee, the Chair is effectively using a veto to silence the voice of Opposition Deputies.

I am not using any veto. I have ruled clearly on the matter.

If the Chair rules that Deputy Mitchell's motion is out of order because of its content I accept that. I suggest that the Chairman and Deputy Mitchell get together and agree on the wording of a motion.

I have a lot of respect and regard for Deputy Harte but he knows as well as I that Deputy Mitchell's motion has more to do with the European election campaign and the hype it might give him over the weekend——

That is his brother.

——than any serious attempt to address the issues.

Deputy Gay Mitchell is not a European election candidate.

Deputy Fitzgerald should address the matter before the committee.

Mitchell is Mitchell. The issue has been addressed by the Chairman; he has consulted on it and has made a decision based on the best advice available to him. He has given the committee that advice which is that the matter is outside the terms of reference of the committee and the proper forum for it is the Dáil. The matter has been raised there and if there are people who are still concerned they should go back to the proper forum and raise it again.

If the matter is out of order as far as the Chairman is concerned then it is out of order. It is a matter for the Dáil to consider whether to change the mandate under which this committee operates.

The Chairman has not ruled the option out of order. He has ruled the terms of the motion out of order, which suggests that he would accept an alternative motion from Deputy Mitchell.

I concur with the sentiments expressed by Deputy Browne. He and I are the convenors to this committee. I am on record at a previous meeting as supporting Deputy Shatter in relation to proposals he put to the committee. I am a little disappointed that Deputy Harte raised the issue of the veto of Government. We all realise that there has been a need for Dáil reform and this is one of four legislative commitees which are the first step of Dáil reform. We have all appreciated the forthright and open discussions Members of the committees have had with each Minister who has addressed the committees.

We recognise that there are certain restrictions on us because of the terms of reference and the parameters laid down by the Order of the Dáil, but I urge Deputy Harte to recognise the excellent progress these committtees have made, the excellent work that has been done, the need for a review to take place of the first months of operation and the commitment of Government and, in particular, the Government Whip who is at present reviewing the need to extend the powers of this committee.

I wholeheartedly support the ruling that the proposal before the committee is out of order because of its terms of reference. We should get on with the business before us.

The majority of the committee Members are Government supporters. Therefore, they have a veto. The Opposition does not have a say.

That is not the way it works.

These matters should be done by consensus. Chairman, you should consult with Deputy Mitchell and agree on a suitable wording. The matter can then be debated along those lines.

The committee does not have the power to hold inquiries. The Dáil establishes inquiries by formal motion. I can only deal with what is before me. What happens from here on is not an issue. I am not accepting this motion. It is out of order as presented. I now ask the committee to——

That is acceptable, Chairman, provided you do not use the steamroller technique to do it. If you make that decision, we will accept it.

There is no question of steamrolling. This committee was set up to make its Members' views known.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): For the sake of Members in future, could we revive the idea that our terms of reference should be reviewed? I do not know if shooting down that idea means that we are happy with the present situation, but if senior officials from the Army or the Garda cannot be called to come before the committee, we will be hampered in getting information.

There is an annual meeting of the committee where all these aspects are discussed. An agenda can be set out at the appropriate time to deal with these matters. We have made a decision and I ask the Members to accept it.

If there is to be a major inquiry on this matter, there is another issue I would like to raise.

Sorry, Deputy, but we will not do that.

If we are to deal with committees of inquiry, I would like to raise the issue of the Gold Card Club in Cork, which is commonly referred to as the Progressive Democrats' golden egg fiasco.

These matters can be dealt with in our annual report where we can discuss, debate and make recommendations as to our terms of reference.

With regard to the questions raised by Deputy O'Donnell, I stress that responsibility for dealing with drug offences is not a specialised function within the Garda. All members can detect and prosecute such offences. Over 200 members of the force have received intensive training in drugs matters and they are distributed around the country.

The existence of special units, such as drug squads and units is in response to the organised nature of certain aspects of trafficking in illegal drugs, such as the networks of importation, distribution and supply that are the trademark of the drugs business. Even in regard to this aspect, the Garda law enforcement response can be described as flexible, with additional resources requisitioned from other special units, such as the divisional crime task forces or the general uniformed forces as required.

There is no single drug squad, but a number of drug squads and units are based throughout the country. The drug squad in Dublin is based in Harcourt Street. There are specialist drug units operating from seven other Garda districts in Dublin where localised problems are known to exist. Outside Dublin, there are drug squads operating in Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford. In addition, a Garda national drugs administration office was established in 1990 with responsibility for co-ordination of national drug law enforcement and liaison at national and international level and is based in Garda headquarters.

There are a total of 111 members involved full time in drugs work in those drug squads and units, in addition to the 200 members with specialist drugs training. That represents a sizeable increase in resources in recent years devoted to drugs protection and prosecution of drugs offences. The Garda Commissioner considers that the specialist resources devoted to their problem are adequate at present, but he will keep the matter under close review. The divisional task force on drugs was reduced from 37 to 30 people because the Garda Commissioner felt it was better to concentrate on drug units in the various divisional areas rather than in this central unit. He was especially concerned with Fitzgibbon Street and Santry.

With regard to vexatious complaints about the Garda Síochána and its morale, 178 complaints were deemed inadmissible in 1992 on the grounds of being frivolous or vexatious. In its first triennial report covering the years 1987-89, the Garda Complaints Board considered that matter. It did not recommend an amendment to the Act to introduce penalties in those kinds of cases. It is already an offence knowingly to allege falsely an offence has been committed. The board felt that further criminalisation might deter more genuine complainants. Therefore, it could not recommend an amendment. It also felt that it would be time consuming and difficult to successfully prosecute a vexatious complaint or complainant. It stated in that report that it would address frivolous and vexatious complaints in its triennial report, which is due later this year. I am anxiously waiting to see that report. If the board recommends there should be an amendment to the Act at that stage, I would have the support of all parties in doing this.

The morale of the Garda Síochána is always a matter of concern to me. It should be at the highest possible level. The dispute mentioned by Deputy O'Donnell is an internal matter which has to be resolved by the association. The right of members of the Garda Síochána to form representative associations is contained under section 13 of the Garda Síochána Act, 1924, as substituted by the Garda Síochána Act, 1977. This Act prohibits the formation of more than one association to represent a rank in the Garda to influence pay, pensions and conditions of service of the force. The Garda Representative Association was established under this Act and I have no proposals to amend it. A Supreme Court judgment in 1989 confirmed there could only be one association representing a rank in the Garda in respect of these matters.

I again reiterate that the dispute is an internal matter and the GRA has recently made serious proposals for mediation. We should wait for a reaction of these proposals. It would be premature for me or anyone else to comment at this stage. Therefore, any changes that might be required or suggested by any group of individuals within the association would be a matter for clarification and discussion within it. The association has recently made serious proposals regarding mediation and I expect a response to them. We should await that response before becoming involved.

I have great concerns about the morale of the Garda Síochána, which has recently taken a beating. It seemed to begin with the unfortunate incidents at the association's conference earlier this year. The association should be allowed to enter into whatever negotiations necessary to resolve the matter so the confidence of the public in the Garda can be restored.

There is a need for greater co-operation between the Garda and the health boards on the matter of sexual abuse. A number of incidents have been recently reported, but most people agree that it is a serious problem whose frequency across the country has not been fully estimated or comprehended. The matter must be seriously examined. The two bodies can compliment each other but there still should be greater cooperation between them.

The Minister referred to the morale of the Garda. I am worried at the ambivalent attitude people seem to have towards the force. I was recently mistaken for a member of the Garda. I normally wear my hair short and drive a blue car that is not dissimilar to an unmarked Garda car and I happened to be wearing a blue shirt.

(Interruptions.)

I happened to be in the company of a couple of men attending a wedding. They had taken a couple of jars and the abuse and insults I had to take from them gave me an insight into how some gardaí are treated. In order to stem this kind of behaviour it is important that there be greater liaison between the gardaí and the schools. It is at that level that the gardaí should be involved with young people. There must be respect for the gardaí and if that breaks down there will be serious trouble. Perhaps a pilot scheme could be established whereby a liaison officer would meet with students on a fairly regular basis. In order to boost morale in the Garda Síochána and restore public confidence in the force, it is important that action of this kind be taken.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I note that when the Deputy speaks of boosting the morale of the gardaí, their entertainment budget was reduced from £26,000 to £6,000. What scrooge mentality decided that £6,000 would entertain anybody, even for one good night?

The idea of community gardaí and gardaí working more closely with people in the community is a point that has been raised many times. The public wish to see more gardaí on the beat, to recognise their own local gardai and to know somebody when they have to contact them or pay a visit to their local Garda station. An extension of this issue is that gardaí visit schools and get closer to young people so that as they grow older young people will respect gardaí and give them greater co-operation. In certain areas of my constituency gardaí work closely with young people, but I am not sure if this is widespread throughout the country, or if gardaí visit schools.

Having been involved with the inner city for approximately 12 years, I recall the first time a member of the Garda síochána visited my sixth class students. They were shocked. The garda arrived in uniform and had his baton and other tools of the trade with him. He had alerted me, as the teacher, and the school principal of his impending visit and we wanted to test the reaction of the class. I will not recall some of the comments from the back of the class. I will leave them to the imagination of Members of the committee.

In the course of time that community garda, or juvenile liaison officer, became well known to the pupils of the school where I taught and built up a great rapport with them. The garda went on to other duties. I would not describe them as more important because I cannot think of any that would be more important, but in fairness to him, and to others who succeeded him, a great respect for the Garda was inculcated. Doubtless people will cynically ask why, if this was so, there are so many crime problems in the inner city. But for that scheme we would have lost many more young students.

There is great work being undertaken by members of the Garda Síochána in the juvenile liaison officer scheme in Coolock in my own constituency. They have become involved in all kinds of community activities, in youth clubs and in the schools. It must be emphasised again and again that unless we can inculcate a respect of law and order at the earliest possible age, and in this respect I have consulted with the Minister on her forthcoming legislation on juvenile justice, and combine this with co-operation between parents, the Garda Síochána and young people, our cause is lost. In such an event, we can fire millions and billions of pounds into the system and we will continue to loose.

I urged the Minister to undertake all in her power to broaden and extend the powers of the juvenile liaison officer scheme and to make the availability of the scheme for schools at primary and second level, even greater than at present.

Regarding the community based crime prevention schemes. I am aware of one in north Clondalkin in my own constituency, which the Minister visited yesterday. This scheme has been in operation for almost 12 months on a pilot basis. The lessons which have been learned can be expanded throughout all the urban areas and through the country. It is money well spent.

Whereas initially there was some objection from the Garda Síochána, this is not the case at present. Those who have been specially selected for this work, and who have an aptitude for it, are enthusiastically involved in it in the area I have mentioned, and I am advised that this is the case everywhere. If a proper selection is undertaken, there is the personnel available within the Garda Síochána to effectively undertake the job of youth and community leadership.

The success of the development in the area I am familiar with in north Clondalkin is such that it should encourage the Minister and the Garda to approach this task in a far bigger way, and to consider it as a key crime prevention measure. Apart from the crime prevention aspect, which is a narrow focus, what is needed in many of these areas is community leadership.

Unfortunately this leadership is not being provided for many reasons, such as marital breakdown, social situations and so on. There are enough intelligent people and human resources within the Garda Síochána to undertake this job effectively and to have the necessary authority to see it through. In this respect, what has been achieved already in the way of pilot studies can be developed to an enormous extent. There is a great future in the area of crime prevention. It is constructive, positive and so much better than flinging Garda personnel at the problem willy nilly.

I am aware that serious detection work most be undertaken. However, hiring and paying more gardaí and putting them through orthodox channels can waste much money, whereas there is great scope in the development of the area involving selective application of good gardaí with the aptitude for this kind of community work, diverting them into it and giving them the necessary backing.

Regarding subhead A.7, I note that provision in respect of consultancy services for the Garda Síochána has jumped from £140,000 to £850,000. Will the Minister provide details on this? Modern administration tends to take the easy way out of problems by opting for consultants rather than undertake the job itself. The Civil Service and the Garda personnel are excellent in themselves. The hiring of consultants for the purpose of undertaking a cosmetic job is often a substitute for real work and investigation that can be undertaken within the resources and personnel available. In many cases expenditure on consultancy work is wasted. It is an effort to avoid real responsibility or merely a cosmetic exercise.

I wish to put on record once again my admiration and respect for the great work undertaken by the Garda Síochána in each and every community in which it serves, and for the courageous action undertaken by it on certain occasions. Regarding those involved in the community liaison officer and neighbourhood watch schemes, I endorse Deputy Lenihan's comments on those gardaí who have the attributes to work on such schemes. Deputy Power referred to an incident in the Kildare area. Like me, Deputy Lenihan represents a Dublin constituency. Communities have benefited enormously from the excellent work of community liaison officers and officers working with neighbourhood watch schemes. I ask the Minister to continue to support the development of these schemes.

I am pleased there is a 98 per cent increase in subhead E, which deals with communications and other equipment. This subhead provides £1.5 million for capital communications equipment. Will the Minister give details?

Subhead A.1 includes provision for traffic wardens. Does the Minister propose to increase the number of traffic wardens in the city area? If so, would it be self-financing? Have the cost effectiveness of traffic wardens and the need for additional wardens to cover extended areas of the city at peak travel hours been considered?

The Minister received a number of submissions from the Garda Representative Association regarding a limited number of retired officers, who are not satisfied with their pensions. There is the matter of rent allowance, which would normally be considered and a directive was introduced in relation to a limited number of pensioners. Has there been any progress on this matter and has it been costed?

I am sorry that, inadvertently, I did not respond to the point raised by Deputy O'Donnell on child sexual abuse. The woman and child unit has been set up in Harcourt Square for some time. I availed of the opportunity of International Women's Day to invite my women colleagues in the Dáil and Seanad to inspect the premises, see the work being done and talk to the officers who have responsibility for the unit. I should perhaps have also invited the male Members of the Oireachtas.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I was waiting to be invited.

I can correct that omission. I agree there is a need to tighten up procedures. The Kilkenny report made certain recommendations on this issue. I wish to correct a statement in an editorial in a leading national newspaper on 19 May that I broke a promise I made on guidelines to the Garda on domestic violence intervention. Whoever wrote this editorial was misinformed because the guidelines were available at that stage. They had been issued to the Garda and give specific guidelines to all members on how they should respond to incidents of comestic violence. This is important. The Garda has put its own house in order. Deputy O'Donnell and others are looking for formal links between health boards and the Garda. I have been having discussions with the Minister for Health and my officials have been doing likewise with their opposite numbers in the Department of Health with a view to establishing more formal procedures. I have reason to believe this type of procedure will be put in place. Everyone, including the Minister for Health, believes this should be done.

Deputy Lenihan asked about consultancy services. These relate directly to the full implementation of the Garda information technology plan. The Garda do not have the expertise to enable it to put this in place and therefore, it must have the facility of consultants with direct expertise.

The schools project was mentioned by a number of Deputies. This was set up in January 1990 in two schools in Tallaght and extended to 12 schools in Coolock, two in Portmarnock and two in the Southhill area of Limerick. There is no doubt that this project has enormous potential to influence young people and encourage them to have respect for law and order and those who enforce it. The project was subsequently extended to all schools in Dublin, Limerick, east Cork, west Galway, Laois-Offaly, Carlow-Kildare, Wicklow, Wexford, Longford-Westmeath, Waterford-Kilkenny, Louth-Meath and Cavan-Monaghan Garda divisions and there are plans to extend it to the small number of other divisions which do not have it.

In addition a video was produced, called "Be Safe Kids", to complement the programme. Its objective is to highlight the importance of responsible behaviour and to develop positive attitudes to road safety. The gardai involved in the programme undergo a two day training course and over 600 gardai have done this course already. Over 1,700 schools are involved in the project. The scheme is popular and worth while and gives a positive message to young people who might be inclined to become involved in crime. It encourages respect for gardaí. They visit classrooms and meet children. There is no need, therefore, for children to be afraid of them or have a lack of respect for them.

The provision for entertainment is primarily for entertainment at presentations of the Scott medal, passing out parades at Templemore and so on. I assure the Deputy there is no question of reducing the type of expenditure to which he seemed to refer.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): It was £26,000 last year and £6,000 this year, which is very little.

This is a notional figure.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I hope so.

One can never say at the beginning of a year how much entertainment will be required or how much money will be needed for those specific days.

Deputy Callely made a point about the increase for communications and other equipment. The increase for capital communications equipment is required for the purchase of necessary replacement equipment and for upgrading the Cork radio system. The provision for non-capital communications equipment is the same as the 1993 allocation. This covers the cost of purchasing equipment, arms and ammunition for the force. The increased funding which was obtained under the law and order package provides for the installation of closed circuit television cameras in Dublin and the provision of fixed traffic cameras.

There are 57 full-time — and 123 part-time — traffic wardens. Some 50 of the part-time ones were recruited from a competition held in July 1992.

Would it be self-financing to increase the numbers of wardens to deal with areas of the city which have been identified as having peak traffic problems?

This is being looked at very carefully in the Department. I could not give an answer off the top of my head. Some might think it would be self-financing, others might think it would not. It would be helpful to us if it were.

I asked about a matter which is a bone of contention between the Department and the Garda Representative Association.

This was in relation to pensions. We have come through a series of conciliation meetings in relation to pensionability of allowances and unsocial hours earnings. Retired members are anxious about a number of matters. It is open to them to continue discussions on these and to be represented by the representative associations. When an issue is decided, it does not mean that all other issues in relation to it are dead and gone. The conciliation continues and if other items come up they can also be put into conciliation and discussed between the Department and associations. That will continue to be the case.

An interesting figure with regard to traffic wardens is that their pay was £1.7 million last year and the fines collected amounted to £3.9 million.

Will the Minister recruit more traffic wardens?

There should be a self-financing element. We can all understand and see the benefit of having more traffic wardens in the city, particularly at peak travel times. Much time is taken up with paid parking fines, in court and so on. I have asked before at this committee if it would be possible for the Minister to consider that if a person does not pay their fine within a 21 day period, a certain percentage is added to cover administration. With the aid of computers, it could be logged against the registration number of that vehicle and the person could only renew their vehicle tax if the fine was paid.

This would eliminate a number of costs in relation to court appearances and so on. It would also eliminate abuses where people do not register vehicles in their own name or address to avoid paying fines. Most vehicles are now registered on quarterly, half yearly or yearly basis. There would also be a greater number of fines collected.

The Deputy made written and oral representations to me in this regard and the matter is being examined in the Department on the basis that I felt that it was a good idea as did officials in the Department. Obviously, we could not go down that road without examining it in great detail. When the result of that examination is available we will publish it.

I am delighted to hear that, I thank the Minister.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Will it be called the Callely plan?

The Minister said that 178 of the complaints made against individual gardai to the Garda Complaints Bureau in 1992 were vexatious. What percentage was that of the total number of complaints?

The number of complaints received up to the end of 1992 was 4,923.

Was that for one year or was it the total accumulated?

These figures were given in the triennial report. I will go through the figures to show the percentages. The number not admissible was 2,326; 1,150 were withdrawn; 186 were informally resolved; 829 were cases of no offence or breach of discipline. Ninety-six cases of minor breach were referred to the commissioner, 69 were referred to the tribunal and 267 carried forward to 1993.

Therefore, a very small number end up being of substance.

There are grounds on the basis of those figures for a possible amendment of the Act to allow for some vindication of the gardai. It is perhaps becoming a matter of routine that these vexatious complaints are made, causing upset to the individual garda concerned and a collective lowering of morale.

As I said, the board said in its first triennial report that it would look at that in its next report due this year. If, as we expect, it recommends an amendment to the Act to take care of that I will put it in place.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Would the 2,000 which were not admissible also be vexatious? Could the real figure not be much higher?

Deputy O'Donnell's point is that a huge number are vexatious which is, in a way, agreeing with the Deputy that only a small number of complaints end up being of substance.

We will move on to Vote 21 on prisons. Are there any questions?

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Is it a sign of positive advance that on subhead A.3, the escort and conveyance of prisoners, the figure drops from £711,000 this year to a projected £500,000 next year— a drop of £250,000 — or is it a change in the system?

I welcome the prison policy document which the Minister hopes to publish in the next few weeks. I hope it will be a very comprehensive document and will look at the operation of the prison system from top to bottom because that is very important. It is very welcome at present because of the concerns regarding people taking drugs in prison. Would it be possible for this committee, and perhaps outside people, to make comments and recommendations when that report comes out? There has been a number of letters to the newspapers by people who seem to have a considerable knowledge of the prison system.

I welcome the intensive supervision scheme which, I gather, is having a 75 per cent success rate which is very important. In a recent documentary on one of the English television channels, a prison officer who had been in the prison system for 40 years pointed out, in defence of the prison system, that one of the problems as he saw it was that, constantly, the same people from the same strata of society repeatedly come back to prison. The intensive supervision scheme which has a 75 per cent success rate is very significant, important and welcome.

I congratulate the Minister on drafting the prison policy document. She recognised, early in her portfolio, that prisons needed a total review, particularly when we are spending in excess of £108 million. I have asked a number of parliamentary questions in the Dáil in relation to the number of recurring prisoners coming in and out of the same cells for similar offences on an ongoing basis and the benefit of rehabilitation programmes within the prison system. There is a great scope with the spending of such sums of money to improve the efficacy of the system and to reduce the number of people coming back to prison rather than this pattern of being in and out of prison for six months at a time. There is great scope for rehabilitation.

Other Members and I, took the opportunity to visit one of the female prisons recently and we were perturbed by the Governor's remarks about the number of drugs available to prisoners within the prison walls. He had a certain knowledge of how the drugs were coming in. He also indicated his concern about trying to address the problem of stopping prisoners obtaining drugs as they currently do.

He explained that in a female prison the transfer of drugs normally takes place when the prisoner meets her relations in the visiting room. A relation may bring a child to visit its mother and drugs are then transferred during the natural embrace of mother and child. He said it would be difficult to impose a regime to prevent this kind of transfer. It is necessary to recognise the difficulties and attempt to put a mechanism in place which will address this problem.

The public view is that if prisoners abuse a regulation relating to visiting rights, they should be made aware that this right will be withdrawn. An alternative would be that if there is an exchange of drugs during embraces which abuses the openness of the present system, a glass screen should be put in place to separate prisoners from their relations. What progress has been made by the Minister? Will this be dealt with in her prison policy document?

In light of the daily inactivity of the majority of the prison population, why are there are no incentives for inmates to participate in productive activities such as education or carpentry? What activities are offered to prisoners? I ask the Minister to respond to the reports of the visiting committees and I requested a copy of such reports on various institutions. Will anything come of these recommendations which, in some cases, would not cost any money?

I recall one particularly sensible recommendation, that prisoners should be registered with the Labour Exchange two weeks before they leave prison. When they leave prison they would immediately be in receipt of some benefit. Releasing a prisoner on Friday with £20 in his pocket will result in him being in trouble by Monday. A simple recommendation was that releases should be on a Monday with the proviso that prisoners will be in receipt of social welfare prior to their return to the community so they will not face a directionless future with no money.

I welcome the increase for the probation services. The union representing the probation service recently indicated that the service would collapse if it did not receive more funding. It costs £600 a week to keep each prisoner. Are we really getting value for money? Prisoners are wandering around with no activity, no incentive to work and no obligation to participate. This aimless inactivity is contributing to the increase in drugs activity in the prisons.

Prisons should be a place of discipline and detoxification since such a high percentage of our prison population are drug addicts. Some 75 per cent of the women in Mountjoy are intravenous drug users. The introduction of detoxification programmes and a disciplined regime is necessary. I agree with previous speakers that some element of discipline must be introduced in the areas of detoxification and visiting rights.

I asked the Minister if there had been an analytical and objective costing to compare the cost of building a new prison on a green field site at Wheatfield and the difficulties and high cost of renovating the building in Castlerea to make it suitable for use as a prison. What criteria were used and was there any objective costing?

I agree with previous speakers that there should be an audit of our prison population. I recommended this before and it has also been recommended by other people who examined the system. I agree that this committee should be involved in submissions on the reform of our prison system. We cannot wait any longer because it is and has been an abject failure. The £108 million spent on the prison system does not represent good value for money.

Deputy Browne asked about the escort and conveyance of prisoners. The 1994 allocation is £500,000, an increase on that given initially in 1993. The allocation at the beginning of any year can only be an estimate because we are not sure how many prisoners will have to be conveyed between prisons and from prisons to court. The figure may be higher at the end of the year and if it is, the money will be made available.

The prison review was mentioned by a number of Deputies. This is the first time that such a review has been undertaken. It will be over a five year period which I consider a normal timeframe for such a project. It will examine positive sentence management and alternatives to custody. It will draw on the Whitaker report and elements of that report which have yet to be put in place. It will also examine a variety of other issues, including the drugs problem, about which I and Members have expressed concern for some time.

With regard to Deputy O'Donnell's point, I would welcome an opportunity for this committee to debate the report after it is published. Members would have an opportunity to make suggestions about the recommendations in the report and how they may be strengthened or amended. It would be a useful discussion for this committee.

I will, as Deputy Ryan asked, give the report widespread circulation. I expect that people involved in the prison service, the social services and members of the general public will have points to make about the report. I would welcome as wide a discussion as possible because it will be the first time that the workings of the prison system, warts and all, will be made public by a Minister. We will need comment from members of the public.

Many Members mentioned the drug problem in prisons. I have made the point many times that we can have a drug free prison system if we implement a policy in prisons which I do not think would be acceptable to Irish people. This would involve strip searching prisoners in advance of visits, strip searching every visitor, including babies, and strip searching all prisoners again immediately after visits.

There is electronic surveillance during visiting times, particularly in Mountjoy. If prison staff see somebody transferring drugs, that person is immediately taken away and visiting rights reduced considerably. They can no longer have free association with their visitors and must meet them from behind a glass partition. There are severe reprimands in place. However, short of introducing the type of draconian measures that would keep our prisons totally drug free, there are some things that perhaps we should do and I will address this issue in the policy document.

In advance of the publication of the policy document, officials from the prisons division in my Department visited a number of custodial institutions abroad which operate a system called "drugs free wings". Prisoners who are or become involved in drug abuse are offered incentives to undergo a narcotics anonymous or similar programme and are supported by the prison and medical staff in doing so. The various incentives include certain remission of prison sentence. It is important for people to know that is available if they are prepared to get involved in a drugs free wing and to be located in that part of the prison. We do not have a closed mind in relation to what could be done and how the situation could be improved.

In relation to prisoners' inactivity, perhaps it would be useful to do what Deputy O'Donnell suggested by stating what is available in the prison education units. For example, there are basic matters such as reading and writing, english, history and geography. Technical drawing, technology, engineering studies, woodcraft, metalcraft, health education, environmental studies, physical education, yoga, aerobics, home economics, social education, catering studies, social sciences, particularly economics and sociology, art, pottery signwriting, video production, photography, music, drama, debating and creative writing are also available.

What is the incentive to study?

The difficulty is that we cannot make it mandatory for prisoners to participate in these courses. All we can do is encourage them to take part. There are also serious difficulties with space in Mountjoy. There is a huge number of prisoners there but they lack the up-to-date facilities which we wish to provide. The construction of a new prison will ease the pressures and make it easier to provide the type of facilities in Mountjoy that are available elsewhere.

The participation level in Arbour Hill prison is 92 per cent, 56 per cent in Cork, 57 per cent in Shelton Abbey and 80 per cent in Fort Mitchel. The level is 65 per cent in both Loughan House and Limerick, while it is 100 per cent in Shanganagh and 57 per cent in Wheatfield. However, in Mountjoy, the male prisoner participation rate is only 26 per cent, while the female participation rate is 75 per cent. The rate for Mountjoy male prison is less than half that in most other prisons. This is due to the very limited facilities that are available relative to the prison population. As the figure is so low, it sometimes puts all the other figures out of kilter.

The only way to deal with this problem is to make the two new prisons available as quickly as possible to relieve the congestion in Mountjoy and to examine, as will be done in the prison document, the type of incentives that could be offered to prisoners if they got involved in positive development courses. I agree with Deputy O'Donnell, as I am sure most people agree, that we should not have a situation where prisoners are idle and not encouraged to participate in the various subjects available to them.

There is provision in the package for the employment of 50 extra staff in the probation and welfare service. I also have the permission of the Department of Finance to fill the 20 vacancies in the probation and welfare service. This is an important element of support to the service, which, in common with many other services, is under pressure from time to time.

In relation to the cost of the prison, it was suggested that the perception is that a decision in relation to anywhere other than Dublin would in some way be construed as political. That is untrue and I do not think anybody is seriously suggesting it. The Department had to examine the cost of any new prison and give the taxpayer, who is paying for the facility, value for money. We also had to look at the socio-economic aspects of the costing and take into consideration the determined programme by this and the previous Government of the decentralisation of State services. All those matters were taken into account.

There is no suggestion and nothing to suggest that the facility in Castlerea, which involves the refurbishment of an existing building, and the construction of a new purpose built facility will be more expensive than anything that might be done in the capital city, including a green field site attached to Wheatfield. At this stage we should not approach it from the point of view of cost because it would in effect signal to potential construction companies that the Department is prepared to pay a certain amount of money and that, if they tendered at that level, they would be successful. We have to proceed by way of tender and consider the lowest possible. We will get very good value for money for the facility that will be provided in Castlerea. Ultimately, we will discover how much it cost. However, the initial indications, when the possibility of providing the facility was considered, showed no appreciable difference in the costs of building it either in the capital city or in another location.

Many specific questions were raised in relation to the prisons. I will welcome a wide-ranging and comprehensive debate on the document when it is published next month. Members of this committee will have a valid contribution to make and professional and non-professional members of the public, who are interested in the prison system, will also have an important contribution to make. We want to prepare our prison system for the next century and do all the things we would like to do.

There are three remaining Votes, courts, land registry and registry of deeds and charitable donations and bequests.

In relation to courthouses, I note an increase of 218 per cent, to £6.291 million. Will the Minister explain the increase? I welcome it if it is for the improvement of courthouse buildings, given the poor condition of many. I have not been in many courthouses but those I have seen are in a deplorable state and this money should be used to improve them.

There are huge backlogs in the District, Circuit and High Courts. I ask the Minister to examine this matter and to consider appointing extra judges. There is much financial pressure on the Minister but extra judges are needed in certain areas to try to reduce the backlog.

The efficiency of the courts is an important, central factor in people's perception of the administration of justice. The courts spend too much time dealing with cases. There is an excessive delay in cases coming to hearing and too many adjournments. The problem of the courts being clogged with litigation and preliminary work is bringing them into disrepute. The Law Reform Commission recommended the suggestion regarding settling pre-trial issues. Before a case is heard, many issues can be settled by solicitors sitting around informally and agreeing, for example, medical and engineering evidence in civil cases, privately in committee before a registrar or before a court clerk. In criminal cases, there may be technical aspects on which the prosecution and defence can agree. The trial then proceeds before a judge with just a limited number of issues to be decided. This is what is meant by settling pre-trial issues and would involve an official of the court dealing with these in an informal manner. It would enormously reduce the length of time it takes to hear cases.

In relation to increasing the number of judges, one practical step, which would eliminate a tier of the court system as it stands, would be to make all the Circuit Court judges High Court judges which would eliminate the artificial distinction between them at present. The steps would then be District Court to High Court to the Supreme Court. There is also a strong case for having seven rather than five Supreme Court judges as permitted by the Constitution. The Supreme Court of seven judges could be divided into two courts of three judges and those courts could decide all appeals, except in constitutional cases. The full Supreme Court would meet to decide constitutional cases but all other appeals could be dealt with by the two divisions of the Supreme Court.

I was critical earlier of consultants. However, an efficiency group — if it may be called that — should be appointed to examine the basic structure of our courts. The group should look at how hearings could be shortened, how cases for hearing could be expedited and how judges could perform their work more efficiently and effectively to create a proper public perception of the courts and how they work.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): My question relates to physical surroundings in the courts. Some time ago I raised a matter on the Adjournment regarding the provision of a lift in Carlow courthouse. I understand that such a lift has been sanctioned. Is it included under the £4 million expenditure?

Provision of a lift has been sanctioned. However, it will be part of phase 2 so it will not be installed this year. As the Deputy is aware, certain matters relating to the caretaker must be resolved. When they are, the lift will be part of phase 2 of the development.

Deputy Ryan mentioned the huge increase in funding for courthouses which we received this year. The funding is related primarily to capital works and the provision of seven major courthouse refurbishment projects. The projects in Galway and Cork are already under way and the others will be carried out in Carrick-on-Shannon, Donegal, Clonmel and Longford. Provision has also been made for a number of small projects, for planning of further major projects and works directly resulting from this under health and safety regulations.

There is provision under the maintenance programme for the maintenance costs of the Dublin courts-which are estimated by the Office of Public Works -miscellaneous premises expenses in Dublin and the cost of renting accommodation for the courts' use in a number of provincial centres. There is also provision, for the first time, of a sum for maintenance and repair work in provincial court venues. Deputy Ryan is right in assuming that the huge increase in funding is provided to address the problem of very poor courthouse accommodation throughout the country through major refurbishment works and, in some cases, the construction of new courthouses.

The Department has prepared two Bills to deal with all the issues raised today. They are the miscellaneous provisions Bill and the courts and court officers Bill. While I would have liked to publish them before the summer, they must take their place in the queue for the attention of the parliamentary draftsman. We have been pushing very strongly for both Bills because changes must be made in how the courts do their business. Deputies have been pressing for such changes and I share their concerns. I hope this committee, the Dáil and the Seanad will have a busy time discussing the Bills in the autumn.

A call was made for the appointment of extra judges. We propose to appoint three extra judges-one to the District Court, one to the Circuit Court and one to the High Court. However, I am not satisfied that the extra appointments are sufficient. I am considering proposals to the Department for the presidents of the various courts concerning their requirements, the huge backlog in a number of courts and the increasing pressure of work in the family law area. I will put proposals to deal with those competing demands to the Government. Nobody would expect me to make those proposals and recommendations public in advance of putting them to the Government.

The retirement age of judges is another issue which will be dealt with by the Bills. A large number of representations regarding this issue have been made. The usual age of retirement- 65 years - for all public servants does not apply to our judges who can be given extensions to the age of 70 years. I have made it known that I am unhappy with that situation but it can only be changed by an amendment to the legislation. The amendment will be included in one of the Bills in the autumn and it will make the retirement age for judges the same as in the rest of the public service. All of us will welcome that change.

I am happy with the Minister's response. I wished to raise the issue of speeding up the justice system because delays have an impact on people who are on remand. That has a knock-on effect on the prison system. I am glad the Minister is introducing those long awaited changes.

I understand the Minister received a joint submission from the Bar Council and the Law Society which made heartfelt pleas for help and I am glad she is responding to them. The Minister will have to appoint younger judges if they will be obliged to retire at 65.

That concludes the committee's consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Justice. I thank the Minister, the Opposition spokespersons and other Members of the committee who participated.

The chairman has been fair in chairing what could have been a quite disorderly meeting. I also thank the Minister for being, as usual, open in her responses.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I also thank the Chairman and the Minister.

I thank Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy Browne who spoke on behalf of their parties. I also thank the other members of the committee for their constructive approach. Deputy O'Donnell is correct, it could have been a difficult meeting for all of us and you, Chairman, handled it in your usual fair and open manner. I thank the officials from the Department of Justice who helped me to respond to the Members' questions.

The Select Committee adjourned at 3.57 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Wednesday 15 June 1994.

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