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Select Committee on Legislation and Security díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Mar 1997

SECTION 42.

I move amendment No. 25:

In page 50, lines 21 to 31, to delete subsection (3) and substitute the following:

"(3) A person may appeal to the High Court from——

(a) a decision under section 14, or

(b) a decision specified in paragraph (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f) or (g) of subsection (1) of that section (other than such a decision made by a person to whom the function stood delegated under section 4 at the time of the making of the decision),

made by the Commissioner in respect of a record held by the Office of the Commissioner or (in a case where the same person holds the office of Ombudsman and the office of Commissioner) made by the Ombudsman in respect of a record held by the Office of the Ombudsman.".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 26:

In page 51, between lines 5 and 6, to insert the following subsection:

"(9) ‘point of law' includes a determination as to the public interest.".

This relates to the appeal to the High Court allowed under section 42 in various circumstances but only on a point of law. It will be recalled that many decisions to refuse access will be justified on grounds of "the public interest", as in section 19(5) and section 20(1)(b). While it is desirable to protect the public interest it is not desirable that a determination of that interest should be made entirely subjectively by the body concerned. If the heads of public bodies knew that the High Court could hear appeals on a determination of what was or was not in the public interest, they would resist the overwhelming temptation to use the public interest defence when it would be inappropriate. It may be that an appeal on a point of law covers such cases but it would be safer to make it explicit in the Bill that there can be an appeal to the High Court for a determination of a claim of protection of the public interest by a particularly retentive body.

This relates to earlier discussions. Many statutes and public bodies use the public interest defence as an excuse to retain information. The Department of Justice, for example, uses it to refuse to disclose information on immigration policy. It is almost synonymous with the security of the State. It is a classic blanket defence of the authorities on any activity which they feel the State is justified to undertake without being called to account.

The public interest defence will be used freely by all these bodies if they wish to hold on to or refuse to disclose controversial information. This Bill does not concern innocuous information — the test of this legislation will be its ability to ensure the public's legal right to information which shall include controversial information. The public interest defence has been used on many occasions by the current and previous Administrations to refuse information sought by way of parliamentary questions. For example, when information was sought about alleged malpractice in the beef industry, a cry of national sabotage went up. The Department of Agriculture and Food, as it was then, said it was not in the public interest to reveal details of export credit insurance matters which turned out to be controversial. Likewise, if the BTSB had been asked to account for its refusal to make evidence available to the expert group looking at that scandal, it would have claimed it was in the public interest that the information not be given so that confidence in the blood supply could be maintained.

The public interest defence can be used as a cloak of secrecy by public bodies. If we are serious about this legislation we should not allow it to be claimed by public bodies without an appeal on that point to the High Court. If there was a facility for such an appeal to determine whether the public interest could properly be cited as a defence to a claim for information it would go some way to assuage my concerns about this defence being used in a wholly inappropriate manner by a public body which wished to protect information. The purpose of my amendment is to make it explicit in the Bill that the determination of the public interest will be appealable to the High Court.

My recent experience has led me to be greatly concerned about the concept of the public interest. I put down a question to the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and all Ministers on recent expenditure of taxpayers' money but all Ministers refused to allow the question appear on the Order Paper. The Minister may say I have a personal agenda but it is relevant to the issue of access to public information and Deputy O'Donnell's remarks. I was seeking to establish and put on the public record what money had been expended — this is not my money or the Minister's money, but taxpayers' money — on what projects the money was expended and how it was expended. I was denied my right as an elected Member of Dáil Éireann to have access to information to enable the public to know how the money was spent.

I share Deputy O'Donnell's deeply felt concern about the primacy of the public interest over the right of the individual to information, which exists despite the Minister's assertion of the primacy of the individual's right to information over the rights of public bodies. I concur with the Deputy that the rights of the public body will be invoked time out of number to subvert the right of the individual and to deny him access to information which should be freely available. If a citizen becomes aware that I, as an elected Deputy, was denied access to information on expenditure of taxpayers' money to date this year and to a comparative analysis of expenditure in 1995, 1996 and this year, how can he or she have confidence in this Bill which is supposed to enshrine unambiguously in law the individual's right to such information? If I cannot get that information how will we convince people that they can have access to it? Deputy O'Donnell is not convinced about this and neither am I. The Minister must look at this before Report Stage to determine how the rights should be prioritised.

If a general election is called in the next few weeks, I am sure you will get full and detailed particulars of all Government money spent in your constituency not only since Christmas but over the past couple of years.

That is not the same as the public's right to this information for which I ask as an elected public representative.

Deputy O'Donnell raised an interesting point. In most cases the public interest is there to override an exemption that is pro-citizen. However, her amendment might unintentionally lead to a situation where it would be open to the Department to appeal to the courts against the information commissioner. I appreciate her point which is pro citizen and, in the event that it is not covered in the Bill, I will be happy to accept her amendment on Report Stage after we have taken further legal advice.

Could the Minister clarify if an appeal can be made to the High Court only on a point of law? Is the determination of the public interest included in that point of law?

That is our initial view but we are taking further legal advice on the matter.

The Minister has chosen not to respond to what I said, which she has a right to do. However, I am not convinced by her reply to Deputy O'Donnell about the public interest being included in a point of law. I do not believe the public interest must be enshrined in a point of law. The Minister has not convinced me that the point of law is wide enough to encompass the public interest.

Our legal advice is that the point of law is wide enough to encompass the public interest.

Is Deputy O'Donnell satisfied with the Minister's reply?

I am not totally satisfied.

We are taking further legal advice. Our current legal advice is that a point of law would include an appeal on the determination of the public interest. If further legal advice is to the contrary, I will be happy to table an amendment on Report Stage.

I admit this amendment was not tabled weeks ago. Did the Minister's initial legal advice state there was no need for this amendment?

Our initial legal advice is that an appeal on a point of law would include an appeal on the determination of the public interest.

We will consider it again on Report Stage because this is an important amendment. Organisations will use the public interest as an excuse for not giving information. It is unnecessary to press this amendment to a vote at this stage but I will do so on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 42, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 43 and 44 agreed to.
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