Select Committee on Social Affairs díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Jun 1994

Page 2

Chairman

A suggested timetable for today has been circulated. This is intended to assist in discharging our business. It is not rigid and I propose to adopt a flexible approach. Is the timetable agreed? Agreed.

Today the Select Committee will consider Estimates for the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. I am sure many Members wish to contribute and I look forward to a constructive discussion. I now call on the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht to make his opening statement.

Vote 42 — Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht (Revised Estimate).

Vote 43 — National Gallery (Revised Estimate).

Vote 44 — An Chomhairle Ealaíon (Revised Estimate).

Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht (Mr. M. Higgins)

Is mór an phribhléid dom na Meastacháin seo, Vóta 42, a bhaineann le £48.459 milliún don Roinn Ealaíon, Cultúir agus Gaeltachta, Vóta 43, sé sin £1.42 milliún don Ghailearaí Náisiúnta agus Vóta 44, a bhaineann le £13.194 milliún don Chomhairle Ealaíon don bhliain dar críoch 31 Nollaig 1994, a chur os comhair an Choiste seo.

Members will be aware that my responsibilities embrace a number of major areas including arts, culture, the Gaeltacht, the Irish language, broadcasting, the audio-visual industry and heritage. They will have already received a briefing note for my Department setting out details of our Estimates with some background information and I do not propose, therefore, to dwell on the minutiae of the figures involved. We can come back to that. References to different areas of the Votes will be in the order laid out in the 1994 Revised Estimates for the Public Service.

I am pleased I have secured a significant increase of the order of 35 per cent in the provision for the operating costs of our national cultural institutions, reflecting recognition of the importance of their role. An increase of this magnitude will have an immediate and beneficial effect on the institutions and their ability to contribute to the cultural life of the nation.

The provision of £10 million in this year's budget to enable work to begin on the refurbishment and conversion of Collins Barracks to museum use marks a significant step in the history of the National Museum. The project at Collins Barracks will address many of the long standing problems of the museum in terms of exhibition storage space and conservation facilities and will provide physical resources commensurate with the museum's place as the primary repository of the physical manifestation of the heritage and story of the Irish people. I am delighted that work commenced on this project earlier this week.

Separately, I have signalled my intention to establish the museum as an autonomous entity with its own board of management and I recently established an interim board for the museum to advise me on the future direction of the institution. In conjunction with the legislative proposals I am at present formulating, the question of the staff resources needed for the museum to fulfil its true potential will also be addressed.

I recently announced my approval in principle for a proposal to relocate the Chester Beatty Library to the Clock Tower in Dublin Castle. Clearly, in light of the major State investment involved, the current relationship between the library trustees and the State will have to be examined and new structures that better reflect the State's major contribution will have to be put in place. Assuming the administrative and legal issues can be satisfactorily resolved, the project will make the many wonderful treasures of the library more accessible and maximise the tourist potential of this remarkable collection. I hope the transfer can be completed by 1997.

I already referred in the Dáil to my intention to promote a new framework within which all the national cultural institutions for the arts and heritage will be given the freedom to fully develop their potential, based on a policy principle of autonomy with responsibility. Consultation is continuing with the institutions involved.

The committee will be aware that policy determination for the services provided by the Office of Public Works in the heritage area is a function of my Department. This covers policy on national monuments, the care of wildlife, various parks and inland waterways. The Office of Public Works continues to be responsible for the day-to-day operation of these services but in accordance with the general principles, priorities and implementation targets set down by my Department.

About a year ago, some administrative staff from the Office of Public Works were transferred to my Department to establish a unit for the formulation of policy and I am pleased that they will shortly be augmented with three technical staff, an archaeologist, an art historian and an ecologist recruited by the Civil Service Commission.

Legislation on the heritage area has been under examination and the National Monuments (Amendment) Bill, 1993, a major Bill, is on Report Stage in the Dáil. I will introduce in the next week or so a Bill to establish the National Heritage Council on a statutory basis. In addition, the drafting of a Bill to amend the Wildlife Act, 1976, is at an advanced stage and a draft scheme of a National Parks and Heritage Areas Bill has been circulated to Departments.

Bhí méadú 13 faoin gcéad ar líon na n-iarratas tithíochta i 1993 agus is comhartha é sin ar an mborradh atá ag teacht ar an tionscal tógála agus ar an ngeilleagar Gaeltachta go ginearálta. Críochnaíodh níos mó ná 100 teach nua sa Ghaeltacht anuraidh mar aon le beagnach 650 cás eile a bhain le hoibreacha feabhsúcháin agus eile.

Bíonn cúnamh le fáil ó mo Roinnse faoi na Scéimeanna Feabhsúcháin le haghaidh bunstruchtúr na Gaeltachta a fheabhsú agus tá méadú mór sa soláthar i mbliana i gcomparáid le 1993. Tá form-hór an tsoláthair —thart ar £2 mhilliún —á dhíriú ar an mhórscéim mhuiroibreacha ar cuireadh tús léi anuraidh chun áiseanna oiriúnacha calaíochta a thógáil ar Inis Meán agus ar Inis Oírr. Is í an aidhm atá ann ná críoch a chur leis an togra sin an bhliain seo chugainn.

Is faoin bhfomhírcheann do Scéimeanna Cultúrtha agus Sóisialta a thugtar cúnamh do thréimhseacháin Ghaeilge agus don nuachtán seachtainiúil Anois.

Cuireadh tús le Scéim nua Labhairt na Gaeilge don scoilbhliain 1993-94 agus táéileamh mór uirthi ó na ceantair Ghaeltachta uile. Tá an scéim nua dírithe ar theaghlaigh, seachas ar dhaltaí aonair faoi mar a bhí go dtí seo, agus tá méadú suntasach ar an deontas — suas le £200 in aghaidh na scoilbliana do theaghlach le triúr nó níos mó dalta scoile.

I gcás nach mbíonn an t-ardchaighdeán Gaeilge atá riachtanach faoin scéim ag aon teaghlach ar leith, is feidir deontas laghdaithe 50 faoin gcéad a íoc ach a bheith sásta go bhfuil ar chumas an teaghlaigh an caighdeán cuí a bhaint amach laistigh de thréimhse trí bliana.

Anuraidh chuaigh suas le 23,800 foghlaimeoir Gaeilge — an líon is mó riamh — to dtí an Ghaeltacht chun feabhas a chur ar a gcuid Gaeilge agus d'íoc mo Roinnse beagnach £1.8 milliún i ndáil lena gcuid costas iostais. Tá fás mór ar an éileamh ar áiteanna sna coláistí samhraidh le roinnt blianta anois agus is dea-scéal é sin, ní hamháin ó thaobh cur chun cinn na Gaeilge i measc aos óg na tíre, thuaidh agus theas, ach do mhuintir na Gaeltachta iad féin agus do gheilleagar na gceantar Gaeltachta.

Maidir le fostaíochta sa Ghaeltacht, aithníonn Údarás na Gaeltachta go maith an gá ní hamháin le poist bhreise nua a chruthú sna ceantair Ghaeltachta ach, freisin, leis na poist atá ann cheana féin a chaomhnú. Tá gach is féidir á dhéanamh chun na críche sin — go háirithe i bhfianaise a bhfuil leagtha síos sa Chlár um Iomaíochas agus Obair — agus tá béim ar leith á cur ar oiliúint agus ar athghrádú scileanna sna réimsí táirgíochta, margaíochta agus bainistíochta.

Tuigim ón Údarás gur cruthaíodh beagnach 800 post nua lánaimseartha ar an bhfód i 1993 agus, cé gur cailleadh beagnach 680 post, dob é an glanmhéadú de thart ar 200 phost a bhí ann ag deireadh na bliana an ceann ba mhó le cúig bliana anuas. Chomh maith leis sin, cheadaigh an tÚdarás cúnamh do thionscail anuraidh ina mbeidh breis is 1,000 post nua i gceist ach na tionscail a bheith faoi lánseol. Maidir le fostaíocht shéasúrach, is cúis sásaimh gur tháinig méadú suntasach de 300 — beagnach 13 faoin gcéad — ar líon na bpost sin faoi scáth an Údaráis anuraidh.

Is breá liom gur éirigh liom méadú eile fós a dhéanamh ar an gcúnamh Stáit do Bhord na Gaeilge i mbliana. Tá ról tábhachtach tugtha dó faoin gClár le haghaidh Rialtais Chomhphairtíochta i dtaca leis na cláracha gníomhaíochta atá le ullmhú agus le cur i gcrích ag Ranna agus ag comhlachtaí Stáit chun feabhas a chur ar an bhfáil ar sheirbhísí Stáit trí mheán na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht agus sa tír i gcoitinne.

Is mian liom a threisiú arís gurb í an bhunaidham d'oifigí Stáit sa Ghaeltacht gur trí Ghaeilge amháin a bheidh seirbhís ar fáil mar ghnáthnós do phobal na Gaeltachta agus go mbeidh sé intuigthe don phobal sin go soiléir gurb amhlaidh atá agus nach gá dóibh dul á tóraíocht go speisialta.

Is ó fháltais an chrannchuir náisiúnta a thagann an t-airgead do na deontais bhliantúla a thugann mo Roinn do na heagrais dheonach Ghaeilge. Bíonn obair mhaith ar siúl ar son na teanga agus ba chúis áthais dom go raibh ar mo chumas méadú a dhéanamh i mbliana sa chúnamh bliantúil a thugtar dóibh. Ní miste a lua go bhfuil socrú déanta agam le Bord na Leabhar Gaeilge le déanaí chun riaradh iomlán na scéime chun cabhrú leis an bhfoilsitheoireacht trí Ghaeilge a ghlacadh chucu féin feasta.

On broadcasting there have been a number of significant developments since this committee discussed the 1993 Estimates for my Department. Time allows me to refer only to some of these. In January of this year, the Government, acting on my recommendation, decided not to renew the order under section 31 (1) of the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960. My recommendation to Government which was made only after an exhaustive review of the issues involved was based on a recognition of the right to freedom of information and the maturity and reasonableness of the Irish people and of our broadcast journalists.

While some Deputies expressed trenchant opposition to this move I am sure most will agree that the fabric of our society has not unravelled since the last order under section 31 (1) lapsed in January.

Proinsias De Rossa

Until last Thursday.

Mr. M. Higgins

I have previously indicated my intention to carry out a fundamental review of broadcasting legislation and structures here. Given the importance and complexity of the audio visual media in today's information technology society, I have decided that the best way to proceed is by way of a Green Paper.

Mass media has the power to restrict independent thinking, channel public opinion and assemble viewing and listening audiences for advertisers with consequent serious implications for consumer choice, free speech, democracy and citizens' rights. On the other hand, it can be a force for liberating human creativity but only if the new technologies are applied to promote changes that will accommodate increased public participation in social affairs. I have often used the phrase "are we the arrow or the target". I could equally sum up my thinking by saying we have to develop institutional conditions necessary to place needs before tools. It will be a primary function of the Green Paper to stimulate discussion on this critical element of audio visual policy here and in Europe.

The second element of the Green Paper will be to address broadcasting structures in light of the revolutionary changes now taking place in broadcasting, brought about mainly by the convergence of telecommunications, broadcasting and computer technologies. We will have to determine whether these structures need to be altered and strengthened to ensure that Irish programmers and programming will retain their pride and place with Irish audiences in the face of ever increasing international competition.

As the committee is aware, I have great confidence in the ability of the Irish film industry to contribute to the cultural and economic life of the nation. To this end I have secured significant funding of £2.37 million for the re-established Bórd Scannán na hÉireann, the Irish Film Board, in the current year. This funding, together with significant tax concessions which I have secured for the industry in the Finance Acts of 1993 and 1994 and the new broadcasting legislation which imposes a statutory obligation on RTE to commission television programming from the independent production sector, has resulted in a spectacular increase in activity in the industry in the 18 months since my appointment as Minister.

Deputies may be interested to learn that in the first six years of operation of section 35 tax relief for film making, that is in the period 1987 to 1993, £11.5 million was raised. However, in the single tax year from April 1993 to April 1994 £17.5 million was raised and since 6 April last a further £11.5 million has been raised in relief.

As a result, 12 films were made here last year and I expect that as many as 18 films will be made this year. The international estimate is that making five or six films continuously for five or six years constitutes serious involvement in the film industry. These projects are bringing significant employment opportunities for Irish industry practitioners and actors; unprecedented demand for the use of the services, for example, of Ardmore Studios in Bray, County Wicklow, and value-added to the economy arising from the use of Irish services such as cameras, lighting and sound services, set construction and design, wardrobe, accommodation, transport and catering. An economic database has been established to indicate the precise returns to the economy of these activities and that first results of the database will be available later this year.

I mí na Nollag seo caite, thug an Rialtas cead i gcomhréir leis an ngealltanas sa Chlár le haghaidh Rialtais Chomhpháirtíochta, do na moltaí a bhí curtha ar aghaidh agam chun Teilifís na Gaeilge a bhunú mar sheirbhís náisiúnta ar chainéal ar leith agus tugadh údarás dom treoir a thabhairt do RTE tús a chur le tógáil an bhonneagair chraolacháin. Tá an fhorbairt seo ar an gcéim is suntasaí a glacadh le scór bliain anuas, b'fhéidir, ó thaobh cur chun cinn agus caomhnú na Gaeilge.

Mar shocrú eatramhach, tá an fhreagracht maidir le bunú agus feidhmiú na seirbhíse leaghta ar RTE. Tá RTE féin tar éis Comhairle a cheapadh chun comhairle a chur ar fáil maidir le gnéithe éagsúla den togra, ar a n-áirítear na riachtanais oiliúna don fhoireann agus don earnáil neamhspleách theilifíse agus cláir teilifíse a chur á ndéanamh, cuspóir a bhfuil soláthar de £3 mhilliún i Meastacháin mo Roinne don bhliain reatha. Tá sé i gceist agam an stáisiún nua a bhunú mar áisínteacht ar leith amach anseo faoi na moltaí leathana do reachtaíocht chraolacháin a bheidh á dtabhairt ar aghaidh agam.

As the committee is aware, the National Gallery has its own Vote and I am proud that I was able to secure an increase of 23 per cent in its funding for 1994, compared to the 1993 outturn. The gallery is entering an exciting phase in its history, with the renovation of the 1968 wing due for completion at a cost of £6 million to the Exchequer. The houses on Merrion Square — numbers 88 and 89 — which are being refurbished will soon be available for the gallery's fine art library and also for administrative staff. This in turn will free additional space in the gallery proper.

In the Programme for a Partnership Government 1993-97, the Government committed itself to achieving An Chomhairle Ealaíon’s funding target of between £12 million and £13 million per annum. We have not only met this ambitious target, but have exceeded it. The allocation for An Chomhairle for 1994 was £13.25 million, a substantial increase of 14 per cent on the 1993 figure of £11.5 million. An advance of £56,000 in respect of payments due under the Programme for Economic and Social Progress was made to An Chomhairle from their 1994 allocation at the end of last year. The resultant financial adjustment means the 1993 allocation has increased from £11.5 million to £11.556 million while the figure for 1994 is now £13.194 million, rather than the original sum of £13.25 million.

The substantial increase in funding for An Chomhairle Ealaíon underlines the Government's belief that the arts and culture element of our national life has a major role in the development of not only our national identity, but our economy. In recognition of this important role and to ensure optimum use of resources, the Government considers that funding for the arts must be on a planned, coherent basis. I have, therefore, asked An Chomhairle to prepare a co-ordinated three year plan for the funding of the arts and I look forward to receiving this plan shortly.

Níl ach léargas gairid tugtha agam ar na réimsí oibre a thagann faoi scáth mo Roinne-se ach tá súil agam go n-aontóidh sibh liom go bhfuil dul chun cinn nach beag déanta le bliain anuas. Táim ag tnúth leis na Meastacháin seo a phlé libh agus aon cheisteanna atá ag Teachtaí a fhreagairt chomh maith agus is féidir liom. Go raibh mile maith agaibh.

Mr. Creed

Ba mhaith liom ar dtús comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis an Aire faoin méid oibre atá déanta aice ó ceapadh é mar Aire Ealaíon, Cultúir agus Gaeltachta agus fáilte a chur roimhe agus na daoine leis go dtí an cruinniú seo.

Since I was appointed Fine Gael spokesperson for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, I have been surprised at the extent and scope of the Department. I have spent that brief time attempting to meet people involved with the Irish language, broadcasting policy matters, heritage buildings and the natural environment. This Department was, in many respects, treated as a Cinderella in the past. One tended to pay it lip service, rather than grant it the financial resources necessary to harness its potential for job creation and artistic expression.

When I look at the Minister and his officials, it brings to mind "the democratic deficit", a phrase in vogue during the European elections. The Department officials are available to everybody and have been of great assistance to me. It is nauseating that we are lectured by the Government on ethics in public office considering the resources this Government has lavished on itself is terms of advisers and public relations firms while no resources are provided for Opposition spokespersons to enable them to present an opposing voice. It is extremely difficult for any one person to acquire anything more than a superficial knowledge of the broad expanse covered by any Department without assistance. Working for a realistic chance to get re-elected is almost a full-time job. It is difficult for an Opposition spokesperson to effectively take on a Department without resources. In the interests of democracy, it is high time resources were made available to all spokespersons.

Language in terms of arts and culture is vital. I attended a meeting of my party organisation soon after my appointment and their perception was that what constituted arts and culture was alien to them. That sort of elitist "invitation only" approach to the arts is a form of artistic apartheid based on social class. Many people living in rural Ireland have an inaccurate perception that the arts constitutes people poring over a Caravaggio painting while sipping wine in the National Gallery or going to the film premier of Noel Pearson's latest production. When approaching arts and culture, we must be inclusive in our language and ensure the greatest possible number of people participate. If there is to be a hallmark of policy for the coming decade it should be improved access and participation in the arts not based on social class. For example the Green Paper on education was a missed opportunity in terms of possibilities for increasing access and participation in the arts through the education system. If one does not foster an appreciation for the arts at that level, it is difficult to make up that lost ground at a later stage.

The impulse for artistic expression is a universal human urge. It has been largely stifled in the lower socio-economic classes who looked upon the arts as being surplus to requirements.

However the arts are not so much the icing on the cake in terms of life experience, but an essential ingredient. While people consider a job essential in terms of personal fulfilment, exposure to, appreciation of and participation in the arts is equally important.

There has been a tunnel vision in this area, fostered by a lack of exposure in the education system to the arts and by columnists in glossy magazines who have perpetuated the myth that the arts are only for the upper socio-economic groups. In this respect the language for debate on matters of arts and culture must be as inclusive as possible. In defining the arts, we must recognise that they include local community based productions of Gilbert and Sullivan or the church choir. In this respect I was pleased to note that Cór Cúil Aodha graced the occasion of the 75th anniversary of the Dáil.

If the people of Coolea, and the surrounding Gaeltacht, were deprived of Cór Cúil Aodha there would be uproar. In many ways they do not consider it an art form but part and parcel of what they are. The idea of the arts as part of everyday life must be fostered.

One of the more critical questions on the Estimates is the standing of the National Development Plan on the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht. We are led to believe, and perhaps the Minister will comment on this, that the EU Commission rejected the across the board cuts submitted by the Government, and the cuts will now focus on the more productive elements of the plan. If that is the case, does past blinkered economic thinking that the arts was a luxury which could only be afforded when times were good, still prevail, if not at Government then at EU level? If so, does this mean that many of the worthy proposals in the plan, totalling approximately £240 million, are now to fall by the wayside?

On figures provided by the Arts Council, employment in the arts has increased significantly over the past 20 years when the reverse was the case in many other areas of employment. For example, in 1990, 2,390 sculptors and painters were employed, an increase of 158 per cent on the 1971 figures, and 3,900 authors were employed, an increase of 147 per cent on 1971 figures. These figures support the Minister's fine submission to the National Development Plan which has been bungled by bad management, and economy with the truth by the Government since 1993 in its submission to the EU Commission.

We are led to believe that publication of decisions pertaining to the plan were withheld until after the elections last week. The Minister denies this, but the committee needs to know what is happening to the projects submitted by the Minister's Department. If the cut to the plan of 8.5 per cent across the board has been rejected, is the Minister's Department now to be subjected to a greater decrease of the share of funding under the plan, and what projects are to fall by the wayside? This legitimate question must be answered today when the committee is considering the Estimates for the Minister's Department.

My colleague, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald raised the Abbey Theatre on the Adjournment recently. There are serious financial problems at the theatre, but anybody who has read its submission to the Arts Council, entitled A High Ambition cannot but be impressed by its long term objectives. There is need for a substantial capital investment in the theatre to enable it operate more efficiently in terms of production and management of its financial resources. What does the Minister propose in this regard? Many of the regional theatre groups look with a jaundiced eye on the Abbey Theatre, which they consider is gobbling up resources which they could well do with to enable them to mount more productions. In this respect there was an interesting article by Declan Kiberd of UCD in The Sunday Tribuneof 12 June 1994 which addresed the issue of fostering a new relationship between the theatre and regional theatre companies. It was a thought provoking article which made a certain amount of sense.

If nothing is done, and the Abbey Theatre is compelled to draw back from the high ideals set out in its submission to the Arts Council and forced to spew out a menu of artistic blancmange which would betray the high standards which have become part and parcel of its productions since its inception, it would be regrettable. The ball is in the Minister’s court to outline how the theatre can emerge from its difficulties.

To see the Artistic Director of the Abbey Theatre, one of our most creative directors, preoccupied with financial matters to the detriment of stage productions is regrettable. The sooner these problems are solved the better. What future does the Minister envisage for the theatre?

Ba mhaith líom cúpla focal a rá mar gheall ar chúrsaí Gaeltachta agus ar chúrsaíÚdarás na Gaeltachta. Ar dtús, déanaim comhghairdeas le chuile dhuine a bhí mar iarrthóir sná tóghcháin le haghaidh Údarás na Gaeltachta, go mórmhór le mo chairde féin i bhFine Gael, Micheal Ó Scanálas, Baile Mhúirne, agus Pol Ó Foighil as Gaillimh a fuair suíocháin ar Bord an Údarás sna toghcháin sin.

I recently visited the Mayo Gaeltacht when campaigning in the Mayo-West by-election. The Minister and his colleague, Senator Gallagher paid a flying visit to Inis Meáin while I travelled by ferry while campaigning. I am pleased to note from the Estimates that there are proposals to improve landing facilities at the pier there.

As a general principle, much needs to be done and substantial financial resources need to be invested in Gaeltacht areas. They have very little by way of a self sustaining local economy. I am aware that Údarás na Gaeltachta has made submissions to the Minister. However, there is too much, prevarication on these submissions. Údarás na Gaeltachta wishes to have additional powers to enable it become the type of organisation that SFADCo has become for the mid-west region. The Minister should pursue this policy as soon as possible as there is considerable potential for economic development in Gaeltacht areas based on cultural and linguistic tourism.

The enormous goodwill throughout the country for the Irish language must be tapped as the language is an integral part of what we are. My Irish is not as good as I would wish, but I hope to improve it. The era of linguistic imperialism when people without fluency in Irish were shunned by certain people with fluency, has gone. Many of us are making an effort to become more fluent, recognising as we head faster towards closer integration with Europe that the things that make us different are becoming more important. In that regard Telefís na Gaeilge is of critical importance. The lack of transparency in establishing it is eroding the goodwill which many reports and opinion polls have scientifically documented. Everybody knows that Telefís na Gaeilge cannot be established on a shoestring and there is a price worth paying. However, the reluctance to be frank about how it is proposed to finance the service and about what may or may not be available from the European Union or the United Kingdom if we were to establish a nationwide channel which would serve the needs of people in Northern Ireland who want to become more fluent in the language is leading to an erosion of public support for the concept of Telefís na Gaeilge. The Minister should be more frank and forthcoming.

Last year's Estimates contained a figure of £4.5 million for the start-up costs of Telefís na Gaeilge. Can the Minister confirm if it has been indicated to him by RTE that that is not a realistic figure? What is the start-up cost? What will be the annual running costs, and how does the Minister propose to finance it? RTE has a right to know. Has the Minister had negotiations with the Minister for Finance on this matter or are we in limbo with regard to the establishment of Telefís na Gaeilge?

I would like the Minister to dwell for a moment on a more parochial point in this debate. The Minister has looked after his neck of the woods not just in terms of Telefís na Gaeilge but in a number of other areas. However, it was envisaged that a studio would be established——

Mr. M. Higgins

What had the Deputy in mind?

Mr. Creed

For one, the headquarters of Telefís na Gaeilge is located in Galway.

Mr. M. Higgins

That proposal was not mine; it was contained in the election manifesto.

Mr. Creed

I am not foolish enough to believe that. I am convinced the Minister had a significant input to it. There was a commitment to having a studio for broadcasting from each of the Gaeltacht areas.

Mr. M. Higgins

That is right.

Mr. Creed

Will the Minister confirm that RTE is to proceed with that proposal for the Munster Gaeltacht or will it be located in the Tánaiste's home town of Tralee? That is causing considerable concern in the Munster Gaeltacht area and I woud like the Minister to indicate——

Mr. M. Higgins

The election is over now, the Deputy can stop spreading those rumours.

Mr. Creed

I am not spreading rumours. These statements have been confirmed to me by senior sources. Will the Minister confirm or deny them at the next opportunity?

I will look forward to considering the Estimates line by line and getting more information.

Chairman

I would remind the committee that we suggested ten minutes for each opening statement.

Miss Quill

I apologise for being late for the meeting and for having missed the Minister's speech. Sadly, there are times when the art of survival seems to take over and meeting times tend to overlap.

I welcome the opportunity the Estimates gives us to consider elements of the proportion of the arts which is important to the community and the country. The arts have recently assumed a new importance in Ireland for which I am grateful. On funding and investment in the arts as well as proper planning to ensure that funding achieves the best possible benefit I hope that we will determine our priorities here annually and make sure that moneys are spent in a manner which gives the best return. We should not dissipate our funds by trying to do too little for too many and thus risk achieving nothing tangible at the end of our term of office.

It is important to accept the arts as a serious part of our economy. Some of the principles applied to economic planning should be applied vigorously to planning and funding for the arts. I do not like diminishing the arts by bringing them down to pounds, shillings and pence, but economic principles seem to dominate much of our thinking. When we seek funding for the arts we must remind ourselves that they have an important and undeniable role to play in job creation. We should not have to justify seeking funding for the arts but, perhaps, this is as good an argument to make as any. More people are working in community art groups throughout the country than there are members of the Permanent Defence Forces. The number of people working in the arts is growing and we should remember that the arts make a direct contribution to the economy and to economic development. For every pound invested in Arts Council aid, art organisations manage to generate another £1.80. That represents a 35 per cent turnover which is a good return on investment compared to returns from other areas. In addition to jobs created in arts organisations, further jobs are created among suppliers of arts materials. The direct and indirect benefits from investment in the arts are tangible.

It is a pity we do not have proper statistics on overall employment levels in the arts. The provision of such figures must be the next logical step. There is ample evidence to suggest, however, that there are substantially more jobs in the arts now than there were three or four years ago. Studies in Britain and Germany show a recent substantial increase in the number of people employed in that sector. I would like to see an audit carried out to establish, sooner rather than later, exactly how many people are employed in the arts, heritage and related areas. If we were to establish definitely what the number is I think we would be pleasantly surprised.

I would argue strongly for the restoration of the original percentage amount of national lottery funds for the arts. When the national lottery was first set up I took great heart from the percentage which was clearly outlined for the arts. It is a great pity that — for reasons which might have been justified in the past but which are no longer justifiable — national lottery funding that ought to have gone to the arts has been diverted elsewhere. The Minister should fight hard in Cabinet to restore the percentage of national lottery funding initially designated for the arts.

I hope the arts get a fair share of Structural Funds for capital works. I am concerned about the allocation in the coming year. I hope none of the worthwhile projects developed and put forward for Structural Funding over the next five years will be cut back. Inevitably there will have to be cut backs in some areas because of the scale of the shortfall but vigorous action by the Minister is required to ensure that key areas essential to the development of the arts, job creation and the development of the economy at every level will not suffer as a result of having a smaller budget than we were led to believe we would have. It is important that a national survey be commissioned to identify all the sources of funding for arts so that we know exactly from where funding is coming. Having established this, we must ensure that the distribution of the funding is according to clearly worked out planning and priorities.

I would be happy to be assured that every local authority had a development plan for the arts. As some local authorities do not have such plans, there are huge disparities in art development between cities and other regions such as the midlands. I do not stand to reap any political rewards for bringing to the Minister's notice areas in the midlands where there is great scope for further investment. Such investment would be forthcoming in a more structured way if some areas had development plans ready and proper proposals to make. It is important that the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht confer with the Minister for the Environment with a view to working closely with his Department on such matters.

They must also work closely in other key areas about which I speak frequently. In my area artists and the local people have benefited greatly from the 1 per cent scheme, which has been skilfully employed there. A number of very good calibre local artists have found work locally due to the careful operation of the scheme. A number of good works of public art assisted under that scheme have enlivened and embellished Cork city and its environs. I see a great future for the development of the scheme if some changes are introduced. The ceiling of £20,000 for any given project is too low and should be reconsidered, especially for a number of very big projects, such as the tunnel crossing in Cork. It would make a huge difference to the city of Cork if a higher percentage of the overall cost of that infrastructural project could be gleaned for the arts. The scheme should be mandatory because a number of local authority areas are not fully using it. It is a key element in putting together the tapestry of funding sources, all of which must be tapped and used fully if we are to achieve our objective of making the arts flourish.

On Library development, local branch and central libraries are capable of becoming art centres or at least should work closely with art centres so that we do not have a wasteful overlap of capital spending and premises at one level while at another level there is a great dearth of premises for young artists who have recently qualified from art school and wish to work in their own country. They do not have the start-up given to workers in other areas of the economy. Clusters of premises are put at the disposal of workers in other areas to enable them to start up their business or trade. There is not a similar provision for young artists. In Cork a small number of key print makers have attained a degree of excellence without parallel in this and, perhaps, in other countries, but they have no premises or funding to acquire premises. If a simple investment was made in this group, we would have the beginnings of a thriving print making art and industry in Cork. That example illustrates a point I made during a recent Question Time when I asked the Minister if we had any clear picture of the requirements of artists, newly qualified and otherwise, for premises and start-up capital to enable them to begin and to carry out their work at home. I would like this to be considered.

The Minister must exert stronger influence to get every local authority area to appoint an arts officer as that is a key element in the five year local art development plan of every local authority area. One thing hinges on another. If arts officers are appointed, they, in turn, will influence local development and the five year plan. This fundamental step must be taken.

We must take sterner action to help to promote Irish art and culture abroad so that artists who choose to work from home could have some assistance in developing overseas markets for the fruits of their labour. An institute of Irish culture should be established to promote Irish art overseas, especially in European countries. Assistance must be given to practising artists of every discipline to set up businesses and base themselves at home and, having done that, to look beyond the home market for selling some of their products.

I am heartened by the development of the Irish film industry and there is great room for optimism in the years ahead. Some key decisions should be made on the further development of this industry. I mentioned this recently during Question Time in the Dáil.

The Abbey Theatre has always been the flagship of Irish theatre and I would like to see it retain that position. The Abbey deserves every assistance to hold its position of primacy. However, it will have to come up with a quality which will bring people in and give a higher box office return than in recent times. That is a very sensible requirement for any grant aided establishment, theatrical or otherwise.

Maidir le cúrsaí Gaeilge agus an Ghaeltacht, an rud is tábhachtaí ar fad, is dócha, ná fostaíocht a chruthú agus a chur ar aghaidh sa Gaeltacht, mar muna mbíonn daoine fostaithe ann, ní bheidh aon dul chun cinn sa Ghaeltacht sna blianta atá romhainn amach. If any sector has a prospect of creating more jobs in the Gaeltacht it is the area of art, heritage, culture and broadcasting. These key areas can regenerate the Gaeltacht by creating more jobs and confidence and encouraging investment. They will help to make Gaeltacht areas more attractive for local people to continue to live and work there and for home and foreign based tourists to visit and spend money in the Gaeltacht. Many encouraging steps in that direction are being taken.

I am particularly interested to hear what the Minister will say on two key points about funding. Will the Minister assure this committee that he will redirect funding initially intended for the arts which was drip fed to other sectors back to the arts? Will he facilitate and fund studio and exhibition space and workshops for artists to enable them to work in their own regions?

I spoke about the imbalance in the distribution of funding between Dublin and the regions. A number of projects in my region have made submissions for funding, for example, the museum in Cork. I appeal to the Minister to give that proper and full consideration when he comes to dividing up scarce resources.

Chairman

Before I call on Deputy De Rossa, I propose that Deputy Bell take the Chair for a few minutes. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Proinsias De Rossa

I am late for a foreign affairs committee meeting down the hall, however I want to make a few general points on this Estimate. I greatly appreciate the role the Minister played in the areas of arts, culture and the Gaeltacht since taking on the job. It is significant, whatever other criticisms one might have of the Government, that there is a Minister with responsibility for this area who is committed to it.

There is still too much anti-intellectualism in society which tends to belittle attempts to look at its deeper underpinnings and applies only a market measure to everything. That, to some extent, is at the bottom of this anti-politics culture which is also developing and promoted to a significant extent by some sections and personalities in the media who spend a great deal of time belittling the democratic institutions and those who serve in them. It is necessary to restate that life is not just about bread and butter. The Minister and I share the broad concept that life is also about bread and roses and everyone has a right to the roses, not just those who can afford them, through whatever role they play in the market.

There is a need to address the arts in the community. A great deal of the Minister's attention will be given to existing institutions and the substantial amounts of money which they use. I am not saying they should not use that money. I am simply saying that in the nature of things and the way in which the areas of arts, culture and the Gaeltacht have evolved, the existing institutions tend to have the lion's share of resources. There is no doubt in my mind, having seen local groups operate in my constituency and other areas, that the potential for the arts to be a means of liberating people and giving them power is beyond question. That, in essence, should be a primary role of arts in the community, although not the sole role.

Many years ago, the guru of the early television age was Mr. McLuhan from Canada who I think said that television was chewing gum for the eyes. I do not agree with that but much of it has evolved into chewing gum for the mind. It does not challenge people's perceptions and in many cases reinforces stereotypes and the concept that people should be passive receivers of electronic information or entertainment. The Green Paper the Minister proposes should address how the wider public can have a more interactive role in that area.

I fully realise that there is a massive multi billion pound worldwide industry which recognises the financial value of broadcasting. I also realise that as a small island on the periphery of western Europe, our influence in that area is fairly limited. Nevertheless, we are a member of a range of international organisations concerned with broadcasting policy and the use and content of advertising. We need to address that issue in the Green Paper.

We should also address the issue of video nasties which hits the headlines from time to time and is not necessarily exclusive to television or broadcasting. The term "video nasty" is a tabloid newspaper creation to convey a range of thoughts and understandings. Since the horrible murder in Britain of a young child by two other children, the role of video nasties has yet again become the subject of discussion and debate.

I have not reached a conclusion on the pros and cons of this issue. Anything I read on the matter leaves many questions unanswered. The Minister's Department could initiate research in the area by supporting research in the colleges or an independent institute involved in the area. It is too easy for the public to be led by tabloid headlines which lay blame for problems which are fundamentally social and do not stem from the availability of a particular video to a child or adult.

I do not have a closed mind on this issue. There may be elements of truth in all arguments on the issue. My concern is where society's responsibility and our responsibility as legislators lie. To what extent, if any, do we impose restrictions or relax the law? This area needs to be addressed and should, as far as possible, be addressed on the basis of well founded research.

On the question of drama on RTE, I do not wish to get involved in or reopen the furore which followed the programme "Family". I do not get uptight if I see my story, to use the generic term, on television. It is great that Irish television can produce programming which addresses society and its problems.

Ballymun is in my constituency and I am aware of the problems faced by its people. I understand their concern and anger but perhaps it is inappropriate to blame television for the position in which they find themselves. I hope the controversy which surrounded the programme "Family" will not discourage RTE from funding similar drama. Any assistance the Minister's Department can give RTE in producing such drama should be forthcoming.

The section 31 issue is one of the few on which I have supported this Government. I have long believed that section 31 was counterproductive and played into the hands of the Provisional IRA and Sinn Féin. The outcome of the recent elections in Northern Ireland and the Republic clearly indicates that the public are not swayed unduly by the appearance of certain people on television. The vote for Sinn Féin in the Republic only marginally increased. The vote for it in Northern Ireland has hardly changed despite that, as pointed out by The Sunday Tribune, at one stage Gerry Adams had almost as many interviews as Deputy John Bruton on RTE, five times the number of interviews with James Molyneaux and certainly at one point had five times the number of interviews I had on television. I was not surprised but that is for another day.

The decision to remove the ban was correct. However we should not simply close the door and forget it. It is necessary to have some method of ensuring that serious statements which might incite hatred or violence can be pursued. It is obviously not possible for any broadcasting station to avoid every such occasion but there should be legal constraints which would apply a sanction to those who attempt to do that on our airwaves.

I recently heard Gay Byrne say that the success of The Green Party candidates in the European elections proved that the power of the media had been exaggerated as these people had not been on television and so on. This is true to some extent but the media, particularly the electronic media, has power. We only have to consider the way in which programmes about Rwanda or Somalia generate a public response when events are shown on television. This area requires a degree of study before one can come to conclusions about the precise nature of that power and how it can be used beneficially.

Anois is the weekly Irish language newspaper. I had a question to the Minister for some months which was recently answered asking if a review of the newspaper was being undertaken. I hoped the question would get an oral reply but when it did not I asked for a written answer which turned out to be fairly bland. I am interested because there is a valuable role for a weekly Irish language newspaper and Anois does not play; it for whatever reason it has become stagnant.

I suspect the paper's readership probably runs to hundreds rather than thousands. I do not know the official circulation of the newspaper but I rarely see anybody buying it. I stopped buying it a long time ago and now get it free in the post. I glance through it but it does not challenge me in any way, other than to annoy me because of some of the material in it. It has a tone and a bias which is unacceptable in a newspaper. I made the point before. About two years ago I spoke in Irish at length in the Dáil on Articles 2 and 3. That debate took place over two weeks and not only did Anois not report it but also it never referred to the fact that I and a number of other Deputies spoke in Irish in the course of the debate. That example illustrates an unacceptable bias in the editorial stance of that newspaper.

I am not suggesting that in my view must be plastered over Anois every week. However, the newspaper must be reformed or changed if it is to serve its purpose which is to cater for people from a wide range of political and social backgrounds who have an interest in and speak the Irish language or those who might only read the language and are incapable of speaking it. I do not know how that can be done but most, if not all, of the money which keeps it afloat comes from the taxpayers so the issue must be addressed. I am not arguing that we should do away with the newspaper but its policy should be reviewed and made to serve people who wish to read a decent Irish language newspaper.

There is a need to look at the role of local libraries, how they have been under resourced for so long and the missed opportunities in that area. Will the Minister indicate when the Green Paper on broadcasting will be available? I look forward to seeing it and offering my response to it. Access to the arts is a basic necessity if the arts are to be seen as more than a pursuit for the privileged in our society.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Bell)

We are running behind schedule. We originally provided for a question and answer session between 3.45 p.m. and 5 p.m. Does the committee wish to take Votes 42, 43 and 44 together, followed by an hour for questions or does it wish to take each Vote separately? The danger of taking them separately is that we may not have sufficient time to deal with Vote 44.

Mr. Creed

Perhaps the Minister would reply to some of the general points raised after which we can deal with the Votes.

Mr. M. Higgins

In our replies to the questions we can address some of the substantial issues that arise within the Votes.

I thank Deputies for the support given to the Department and me in their welcome for the progress made in arts, culture and the Gaeltacht areas and in their recognition of the extent of territory that must be covered by the new Department. Deputies were fairly positive in recognising that a great deal of ground had to be made up. Many areas had been ignored and there were great gaps to be filled. I hope they will be filled quickly.

On staffing, I can offer an example in response to a point raised about public relations. The amount spent in the administration budget was £1,400, far less than it cost to answer the several questions asked of me in the Dáil regarding the number of people who had mobile phones or were using various services. I wish to put an end to such questions. On Monday I attended the shoot of the first film I have been able to attend this year - The Old Curiosity Shop in Bunratty. Twelve films were made here last year and 18 in the current year, I attended the shoot for a few minutes to meet the participants. The value of every million pounds spent on a feature film is £48 million and £50 million on a documentary. Many people there were anxious to thank me for what I have done. We were far from spending a fortunate on PR, even on that significant success in only one area of the Department’s responsibilities. Perhaps four people are responsible for such matters in the Department and they are also involved in other areas. The Department is under-staffed and over-stretched in its responsibilities.

I also wish to end speculation about advisers. One would get the impression that we were hiring people for the sake of hiring them. I employed two advisers — a policy adviser and a programme manager. The policy adviser is a trained barrister, can read legal texts, speaks the Irish language, is a trained television producer and was the first director of The Arts Council. He has also produced works for the stage and has inter-acted with the major institutions. He has been able to merge his work with the work of the officials in my Department who work worryingly long hours. Their work is second to none. They are internationally acclaimed for the work they have done in a short period.

My programme manager, having worked for a long period in public service unions, is able to identify how we can deliver the policy programme agreed between the two parties in Government, quickly and efficiently cutting down as much as possible and eliminating any obstacles in our path. He works with and through officials in the Depatment. We all work together. I hope to end the speculation and save the taxpayers' money spent answering these unnecessary questions. There are three mobile phones for people who are working very hard. We spent nothing on PR last year. The total sum in the Estimate for promotion is £70,000 of which £35,000 is for the development of valuable waterways projects which have rich potential for job creation. It was morally necessary for me to clear up that point. I owe it to the people involved so that they will not be regularly disparaged by innuendo or otherwise. I have stated the facts.

I do not want this to deflect from the valuable points in the contributions. I accept the value of inclusiveness and participation. Some people are hostile to a concept of a Department such as this, but what they say is most interesting for what it reveals about themselves. They say the arts are rarefied activities indulged in by a small group of people. I have constantly said that I see arts and culture as dealing with creativity and capable of releasing a great many possibilities in personal, economic and social development.

I will always use these Estimates and Question Time to give as much information as I can and I will answer all questions directly. The general cultural emphasis guiding the Department will be that culture is democratic, participatory and inclusive, rather than authoritarian, elitist and exclusive. One turns that cultural strategy into definite policy proposals for current and future expenditure in the different arts activities in the way one spends the money and in the provision made on an annual basis. That is what guides my thinking.

On the National Development Plan, I initially said in answer to Dáil questions that the cost of what my Department produced was estimated at £240 million. I said today the figure would be between £220 million and £230 million and it will probably be about £226 million. In answer to Deputy Quill and Deputy Creed, that will not mean the abandonment of any significant arts project.

I anticipate the commission will finish its work at the end of this month. In September we will be able to look at all the qualified projects which will come under the budget. As I said, the budget figure was originally costed at £240 million and it is now £226 million, a difference of £14 million. I may be able to make further adjustments by restructuring projects or rephasing them. There will be no loss of any significant necessary work.

Deputy Creed and I are of one mind about access and participation but that belief has to be turned into reality. I expect the three year plan for the arts from the council will pay attention as to how this may be implemented. My initiatives in the film sector are ensuring access and participation for the greatest number of Irish technicians, actors and suppliers. On Monday I met people who are supplying horses and carriages for The Old Curiosity Shop. Caterers and painters are also involved.

Ardmore is likely to be in the black at the end of 1994 for the first time in 13 years. The studio is employing extra carpenters and painters. Three film sets are being used at the same time for Brave Heart, The Old Curiosity Shop and Scarlet.In the last 12 months we have increased the number of films made from one or two to 12 and in the next 12 months it will be 18. This is providing all types of jobs in differrnt grades. The benefit ofBrave Heart to the Irish economy could be as much as $30 million and will be at least £15 million, not counting indirect expenditure.

The arts, therefore, can be inclusive and participatory in many cases. The three year plan can deliver this and can also have a strong economic benefit. I have announced other initiatives in music which will be informed by the same principles and which will have a significant economic benefit.

I share the concern about the Abbey Theatre. I read the various commentaries on it recently. Everyone agrees the National Theatre is an important institution and its artistic director is held in high esteem. We are anxious to ensure the future of the Abbey.

Current funding is provided by An Comhairle Ealaíon. I have proposed a new funding structure for the Abbey. I have suggested the Irish Museum of Modern Art, the National Concert Hall and the Abbey Theatre should be taken together as national cultural institutions and provision should be made for them because of their importance and for the sake of transparency and planning purposes. I opened consultations with IMMA and the Abbey, who have responded well. I have approached the NCH also. When it responds we can see what structures would best protect the future of the Abbey.

It was not intended to diminish any of these significant institutions, least of all the Abbey but to give transparency about what was needed for it. The Arts Council was to decide what was needed for these institutions and recommend a figure to me, for which I would take responsibility. If we can get past the restructuring programme we will be able to put the National Theatre on a sound footing. I regard the Abbey as a primary cultural agency for the promotion of theatre.

In response to Deputy Quill, one does not look after the Abbey at the expense of the funding needed for regional drama groups. It is not a matter of having one or the other. The Abbey has to be properly established because of its national significance as a primary cultural institution but that will not be done at the cost of drama needs in the regions outside Dublin.

The Deputy also inquired about the economic benefit to the arts. Artistic and cultural activities are not as peripheral as they were. They have moved to the centre, which is welcome. As evidence of the Government's commitment to sustain this, there has been significant investment for the period 1993 to 1999, as shown in the plan. There has been huge uptake in the broadcasting and film area. I will continue to take other initiatives.

The research by Coopers and Lybrand into the employment and economic significance of the arts in Ireland is almost completed. That will be of value to all of us. It will be another objective study of the significance of the arts to our economic life. It will outline the current employment patterns in all artistic, cultural and heritage areas and make targeted recommendations on maximising the future employment potential in each area.

My Department, Temple Bar Properties, An Comhairle Ealaíon, FÁS and Dublin Corporation DBT have all been actively involved in the funding and overseeing of this research. Moreover, my Department has been involved in establishing a sophisticated economic database for the film industry. We are anxious to know the net value of the economy and that those who benefit from An Bord Scannán and from section 35 will submit their data to the database so that we can have transparency about the precise economic benefit from the measures taken in relation to film.

I share Deputy Creed's views about linguistic imperalism. I have repeatedly said that my strategy on Irish was mealladh agus moladh. We must invite and encourage people to speak Irish and not use the Irish language to abuse a person's efforts to have access to the language. My Department also holds this view.

As regards Teilifís na Gaeilge, I have sought to give as much information as I can. On 15 December 1993 I was asked a number of questions on the Dáil. The Official Report of 15 December 1993, Volume 437, at column 629 states:

Déanfar maoiniú ar an gcostas caipitil a ghabhann le bunú na seirbhíse as an mbarrachas airgid, £17.9 milliúin a bhí carntha de bhreis ar an srian a bhí i bhfeidhm ar ioncam fógraíochta RTE.

I said I was taking some of the start-up costs from that accumulated money, the surplus under the cap. I also gave £3 million to be spent in 1994. I have given as much information as I can and as is prudent at different times. I am not responsible for doing anything to damage public confidence in Teilifís na Gaeilge. I led and carried that debate. I appreciate and thank the Deputy for the support he is giving to the concept of Teilifís na Gaeilge. However, I did not always get support.

I gave my reasons for favouring Teilifís na Gaeilge. I can be more factual now and say that the Government's decision empowered me to instruct RTE to set up the basic infrastructure. It also allocated a sum of money to start that work, for training and commissioning and to recruit the basic staff necessary. I also undertook, in discussions with the Department of Finance, to seek to minimise as much as possible, the running costs which would arise. Those discussions are nearing a conclusion, but Deputies will appreciate that I was required to seek a second opinion, where appropriate, on technical costings.

From time to time, the concept of Teilifís na Gaeilge has been damaged by rumours caused by leaks, some of which are totally uninformed, while others are slightly informed. One example is that aerials, which cost £60, would be required in some parts of Connemara, but they would not be required in the city. I am told that one can buy aerials for approximately £25 to £30 if one needs them. In addition, no decision had been made at that time. Rumours proliferate, but Teilifís na Gaeilge will go ahead and as soon as my talks are completed with the Department of Finance, I will pass on that information to the public.

As regards the £20,000 limit, I appreciate Deputy Quill's contribution on the 1 per cent scheme. Perhaps it would be a good idea to review the schemes progress. She is correct to take Cork as an example because it is a good one. Perhaps, following that review, it would be possible to make recommendations, even if it is necessary to ask that the scheme be made mandatory through my colleague, the Minister for the Environment.

I have answered all the questions on the other groups. I will appreciate Deputy Quill's support in arguing for more money from the national lottery, which my Department can spend. She also asked me about arts officers and I agree with her on this point.

All three Deputies spoke about libraries which are the responsibility of the Minister for the Environment, but I am not saying I am not interested in them. I am anxious to take this issue up with the Minister for the Environment. The Library Council is another body we must consider. Libraries are important and we will see what progress can be made in regard to them. On making provision for the arts, it makes sense to include an integrated infrastructural provision and to avoid waste at a time when we need to spend everything properly.

I was asked about the circulation of Anois. It sells 3,800 to 4,000 copies per issue. There is a difficulty because the paper is produced by a small number of people. Recently, I decided to increase the grant available to it from £3,000 to £3,500 per issue. There will be an attempt to improve the marketing of Anois and to address issues related to marketing, such as the design and layout of the paper and its contents. We must give it a chance. There is not an easy solution. Since Deputy De Rossa made his comment, the lives of the editors have changed more than his own life because editors have come and gone. People with different opinions argue that their views might not be accommodated. I have no editorial function in Anois. In addition to the funding outlined I will give a special grant, perhaps £30,000, to try to improve the marketing, layout and technical production of the paper.

I agree with what Deputy De Rossa said about the news media and, particularly, the broadcasting media. All the principal officers in the Department, apart from two, are present and they serve a large territory. I want them to respect the fact that Deputies De Rossa, Quill and Creed are taking an interest in these issues and I aim to publish the Green Paper on broadcasting in September.

Mr. Creed

We were worried it might be published during the World Cup.

Mr. M. Higgins

I hope it will lead to a thorough debate on all the issues in a difficult, but challenging area. The speed of technology, fibre optics, cable, etc., means it is possible to have new sources of televisual images. Public service broadcasting is now in a totally different environment , involving pluralism of choice and so forth. I hope this will be debated when the Green Paper is published. I am aiming for September, although at this stage I cannot predict what difficulties might arise in other areas. However, it is only right to tell Deputies my intentions.

I also agree with what Deputy De Rossa said about research. I am in favour of strengthening media studies and I represented this view to my colleague, the Minister for Education, Deputy Bhreathnach.

I take Deputy De Rossa's point about section 31, which is no longer a contentious issue. I decided to make a recommendation about the order under section 31 (1), not because of the needs of any organisation, but on the basis of the public right to information, journalists' capacity to act as journalists and an authority's capacity to be an authority. I am pleased with the way it has turned out. All legislation, including section 18 of the Broadcasting Act and legislation relating to the prohibition against incitement to hatred, stands. There have not been complaints, either to RTE or the Independent Radio and Television Commission, since the order was not renewed. I share the Deputy's view on video nasties. However, that is primarily a matter for the Minister for Justice. There is no answer to this problem. Neither is it easy to say that through some form of censorship, one can handle something as complicated as this.

As regards the Cork public museum, Cork Corporation estimated that its development would cost £1.287 million. That development plan states that financial assistance cannot be provided by the corporation alone as the proposer of considerable significance in the overall cultural tourism context for Cork city. The corporation was looking for EU funds. However, this requires study and when we come to examine particular projects, it can then be evaluated. We should have finished with the European consideration by June and by September we should be able to look at the qualified projects. We will then be able to see whether this project can be assisted and from where that assistance may come.

Mr. Creed

Under subhead C2, grant-in-aid for cultural institutions/agencies, a subhead similar to C1, what type of projects are eligible.

Mr. M. Higgins

Is Deputy Creed asking about subheads C1 and C2?

Mr. Creed

The local authority in Macroom, County Cork, is developing a library and may develop a theatre. Funds to assist are available locally but there is a shortfall. Would that type of development benefit under this subhead?

Mr. M. Higgins

Deputy Creed identified a specific project. Subhead C1 is national lottery sourced, while subhead C2 is Exchequer funded. Subhead C1 would cover a project to be started. It is a once-off grant while subhead C2 would cover an institution where voted moneys would be likely to recur.

In the National Development Plan I have given a figure of approximately £226 million for everything. Under local authority supported cultural projects there will be funding of approximately £27 million. That will be a capital programme for the arts, subject to a 25 per cent funding contribution from the relevant local authority. Local authority supported cultural projects will be funded on a ratio of 75:25. The total sum for the duration of the National Development Plan is £27 million.

Deputy Creed will appreciate that some of these projects require the completion of the work of the Commission and I will be in a position to establish criteria for eligibility for assistance under the capital allocation provided by my Department.

Mr. Creed

I am at a loss as to how this programme submitted on the presumption that £8 billion was available, can go ahead without any changes if this sum is not available. I accept the Minister has revised costings and that what was to cost £240 million will now more accurately cost £226 million but not that there will be no impact on any of the projects.

Mr. M. Higgins

Deputy Creed should not press for bad news.

Mr. Creed

I am not pressing for good or bad news, but I would like to know the position. We were led to believe that there would be an 8.5 per cent reduction across the board. I am as concerned as the Minister about the productive sectors of the National Development Plan. In the past the arts was not considered the economic driving force or economically beneficial in terms of job creation and it would not have been considered a productive sector for investment.

In the context of ongoing deliberations it is a pity the Coopers & Lybrand report, to which the Minister referred earlier, which the Arts Council commissioned, is not available because it would provide the foundation to secure funding for all the projects from which there would be a substantial spin off in terms of employment. It is difficult to comprehend how the Minister can argue about this. I am not pressing for bad news, but for realistic facts.

Mr. M. Higgins

Let us put an end to the nonsense invented by the newspapers. We have collective Cabinet responsibility and the figure I gave this committee came from a Cabinet meeting. Although I was pressed on some of these figures, there is no basis for any report in any newspaper suggesting that projects in some Departments including Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht might be dropped, because there may have been prejudice in the past that they were not as central as other projects. I have given the figure of £226 million. If the Deputy wishes, I will answer the question as to how one gets from £240 million to £226 million.

Mr. Creed:

We were lead to believe by the Taoiseach in the Dáil that there was to be an 8.5 per cent cut across all Departments. The Commission said it wants investment targeted at more productive areas. How will the Minister fare in that regard?

Mr. M. Higgins

The Commission did not say that. I can repeat myself until we have no more time. People apparently would like a story that would be suitably miserable which would make a great reading. I am delighted that there is no basis for this misery people so badly want.

The full sum allocated was £240 million, out of which £44 million was spent on cultural institutions and agencies. Some of these figures may increase, because in the rebalancing across the projects I have been able to make savings and I have also retimed some projects. The area of film was to receive £16 million but will receive about £15.58 million. Local authority supported cultural projects was allocated £27 million showing a slight rise. The figure for Údarás na Gaeltachta was £77 million, it will turn out at a figure of over £73.2 million.

The point is that there is a cut from £240 million to £226 million, because I argued to the penny for every pound spent here under all these headings. I am giving information to a committee of the Dáil. I am not required to give credence to people flying kites in media reports. Waterways accounted for £25 million, national parks and nature reserves, for £14 million, Gaeltacht marine works accounted for £8 million and national monuments and historic properties accounted for £29 million. All these programmes remain in place, the pattern of expenditure has increased in some and decreased slightly, in others, but the total cost is down from £240 million to £226 million.

If people want to run with a story that has no basis from the Commission in the national media and damage all that expenditure by repeating the story, it is rather like saying "I know you are not beating your wife". Some people say there is no economic benefit to spending on the arts, culture and the Gaeltacht, although we all know it is not true. I have shown the value that can be had from spending on film and all of the other areas of expenditure. I have commissioned studies on a staff beleaguered in terms of work. We have distracted ourselves regularly from our work to answer daft questions which have just about stopped short of asking us if people use toilet rolls in my Department. We have continued the work, have had successes in Cabinet, we have designed the most imaginative expenditure for the arts in the history of the State and we are proud to do it. We will deliver it and we will consider all the worthy projects coming forward.

Mr. Creed

It is amazing how costing can be packaged as revised rather than as a cutback. I do not wish to pursue that matter any further. Subhead F is Gaeltacht improvement schemes. On subhead F1 I am concerned about transparency in the allocation and its use by local authorities in determining priorities in this area. Perhaps the Minister will clarify whether this area is the responsibility of the Minister of State in his Department, I take this opportunity to congratulate him on his success in the European elections. Given that there will be an interregum before a new appointment to the Department, perhaps the Minister would consider, establishing if this has not been done since I raised the issue last year on the Estimates — some scheme operated by the new Minister of State to ensure transparency. There is disquiet at how those funds are allocated and maybe the Minister will let me know what is happening in that regard.

Mr. M. Higgins

I am delighted to answer that question and I appreciate Deputy Creed raised it before. When the Minister of State answered it in the Dáil he indicated that we would examine the scheme. I intend to examine the scheme and to consider making changes to it. I might not confine myself to just the kind of changes he suggested. We are talking about a very small sum of money, but I am coming to the conclusion that in Gaeltacht communities some people may at this stage have been so "bóthairíáised" that it is not top of the community council's agenda. They may want to do something else. I might consider for example whether some of that money should not go to another project. Again they may decide to have a mixed model suitable for their own community's development which may include roads and other matters. They may take a sum of money from Roinn na Gaeltachta, go to the county council with it get, an equivalent sum and then structure the expenditure in some way. This is the kind of change I am currently examining and which I have been examining since the questions were last put down to me in the Dáil. I will probably move quickly on some of these changes.

Mr. Creed

I suggest that the interregnum is an appropriate period to introduce whatever changes are necessary.

Mr. M. Higgins

Well the Minister continues while Ministers of State change.

Mr. Creed

I accept that wisdom. On to subheads F5 and F6 there appears to be an overlap of purpose. Why is it necessary to have two subheads when both appear to fund amenity facilities in the Gaeltacht areas?

Mr. M. Higgins

Hallaí agus Coláistí Gaeilge and Saoráidí Illgnéitheacha? I remember the background to this. Hallaí and Coláistí Gaeilge were associated with places of education and education related recreation, whereas the saoráidí ilgnéitheacha related to facilities for playing pitches, changing rooms, if provided, to service a playing pitch and so forth. One was educational and quasi-educational activity, the other was for more general facilities that would not come under that regime. For example if one had invested in a playing pitch and later one wanted to provide facilities such as toilets, changing rooms and so on, that is where that second category came in. Now that the Deputy has drawn attention to it, I will certainly look at the way these are laid out. It might be better if they were under a general heading and then broken down and itemised. I have no problem about looking at such a layout for the future.

Mr. Creed

Subhead G2, grants for learners of Irish comes back to the old chestnut of the rate of payment for a minority which is a pittance in terms of the service they provide. A payment of £3.50 to provide three square meals a day for students in the Gaeltacht is not adequate. I wonder why, given that there have been significant and generous increases in many of the subheads across the board, this one was skipped over? It is one of the areas where we are extraordinarily mean-minded in terms of what is being achieved. Given that there is a greater interest in learning the language we are in danger of killing the goose that laid the golden egg in terms of the mná tí. At that rate of remuneration they may not continue to be interested in providing the service.

Mr. M. Higgins

I am delighted that the Deputy raised the issue of the mná tí. I had a discussion with them. I cannot help them in the current season but I will look at the matter for next year. A couple of factors should be borne in mind. I gave the figures for the total number of poeple participating, that is the daltaí, the students going to the Gaeltacht, and there is a welcome increase in that and in the number of mná tí participating. While that would increase the costs I take the point that there was a long period during which there was no increase, then there was an increase. This was last looked at in 1992 and would be appropriate to look at it for the coming year.

On a related point about the mná tí, I assure the Deputy that they are also worried about new fire regulations on the adaptation of their houses for the safety of the daltaí. I met them on that matter also and I understand that an opportunity will be given to them to phase in the changes while at the same time meeting safety requirements which are obviously necessary to the interest of every child's safety.

Mr. Creed

I would like to bring to the Minister's attention two matters with which he may be familiar. During the course of the recent Údarás na Gaeltachta election campaign in Cúige Mumhan I heard that Coláiste Íde in Dingle, the last remaining all Irish girls boarding school, is in imminent danger of closing. I accept that it is probably an issue for the Department of Education but the school has given service to the Irish language over many years. I know there are problems in terms of its being a boarding school and it may not have many students from the locality but it would be a regrettable loss. Will the Minister determine what, if anything, can be done for the school? I do not have the necessary information on the matter but it was brought to my attention.

Last year I raised the closure of Coláiste Íosagáin in Ballyvourney in the Muskerry Gaeltacht. This fine educational establishment was originally a centre for training national school teachers. It was taken over by the De la Salle Brothers as a boarding school and has been closed for a number of years. It is an imposing building in the middle of Ballyvourney and Ballymakeera. I do not know what role, if any, could be found for it under the aegis of the Department, but it should be looked at as it is rapidly becoming an eyesore. I know the Minister could wash his hands of it because it is not his problem per se but some use should be found for it, perhaps as an Irish college in the summer.

Mr. M. Higgins

I understand that Coláiste Íde is taking on students for 1994-95. Dingle was a place for the wildest rumours during the recent Údarás na Gealtachta elections.

Mr. Creed

I am glad the Minister nailed a few of them.

Mr. M. Higgins

I did. I found it necessary to issue many clarifications — to use an unfortunate term — in recent weeks. I will look at Coláiste Íde. With regard to Coláiste Íosagáin, it is my information — as it was when this matter was raised before — that it had been sold to private interests. Even if that is the case it still raises the question as to whether some role should be considered for it. While it is not within the remit of my Department; if there are any suggestions that I can direct towards its appropriate usage I will consider them.

On a different point, there is absolutely no substance in the suggestion that the Tánaiste will have a personal input to Teilifís na Gaeilge in Tralee; no more than in the suggestion that the Dingle project was held up because of the project taking place in Fenit.

Mr. Creed

I suggest that the Minister is a little over sensitive. I happened to mention that it will be located in Tralee which happens to be the home town of the Tánaiste. I did not suggest that the two incidents were related. I am glad the Minister has confirmed that the studio will be located in one of the centres of the Munster Gaeltacht.

Mr. M. Higgins

No, I have said that those Gaeltachtaí will be looked after and I will come back to that. I will not go into the matter of where it will be located — there will be inputs from the different Gaeltachtaí— because it is an issue that the comhairle is looking at and, to my knowledge, it has not yet come to a conclusion. The Gaeltachtaí should have an input and the comhairle will make recommendations. That is what the comhairle is there for. I am the Minister and when we hear the recommendations we will consider the options.

A person less committed to Teilifís na Gaeilge would have been dislodged before now because of all the rumours that have surrounded it. People in the recent Údarás na Gaeltachta elections in Galway suggested that it would not be in Galway. As far as some were concerned the only place it would be was Tralee. I wish people would allow the preparatory and advisory work to be completed, allow the talks to take place and allow us to plan and get on with it. The only question that has not been asked is what colour the gable end of the building will be painted. No doubt that will be a matter to be decided in due course.

Mr. Creed

On subhead L, the grant to RTE for broadcasting licence fees, does the Minister intend to increase the television licence fee in the near future or has he received a request along these lines from RTE?

Mr. M. Higgins

I have had no formal request from RTE. In its annual report it made the case for a licence fee increase. However, I have no request before me and I have made no recommendation to Cabinet in that regard.

Mr. Creed

Would the Minister agree with the idea of index linking any increase sanctioned in the future which would remove the controversy that may surround any future increase?

Mr. M. Higgins

What the Deputy suggests makes great sense. If one has grasped the nettle and got the fee to a certain level than one should try to look after it. Another side to this will surface in the context of the discussion on the Green Paper.

A similar issue has arisen on the future of broadcasting in Britain, whose channels include BBC 1, BBC2, ITV and Channel 4. There is a whole series of issues on revenue. If one removes the licence fee and make totally market revenue generated inputs into broadcasting, it is difficult to see how public service broadcasting can survive. Having accepted that argument, one can then see the importance of the licence fee. I agree with Deputy Creed that having tried to get the matter right instead of making ad hoc emotive arguments indexation seems to make sense.

Mr. Creed

In the context of the Green Paper on broadcasting, does the Minister agree that it is necessary to give a succinct definition of public service broadcasting and point out that it it not necessarily broadcasting which, by its nature, appeals only to a small audience?

Mr. M. Higgins

We do not want to anticipate the discussion on the Green Paper. Something of public service or commercial interest may appeal to a large audience. Indeed, some independent television stations make minority programmes. If one wants to correctly address the spectrum and pluralism of viewing choice, taking my concept of being the arrow, not the target, one simply cannot put one's broadcasting service at the mercy of the market place. Deputy Creed is correct in saying that I should address these issues. I cannot guarantee that I will be succinct or that even if I were succinct, it would meet other people's definitions of it. I will certainly consider this important issue.

Mr. Creed

I do not have any queries on Vote 43. I welcome the continuing increase in funding for the Arts Council under Vote 44, which is moving at a satisfactory rate in the right direction. Enormous demands have been put on those funds. I met the Arts Council and in terms of our earlier debate on access to, and participation in, the arts, especially the regional imbalance in artistic facilities, I am satisfied it is also anxious to redress this matter. I welcome and compliment the Minister on his achievements in that regard.

Mr. Bell

I thank the Minister for his support for the Droichead Arts Centre in Drogheda, which he should visit sometime. The Minister might use his good offices with the Arts Council to deliver on the promise it made to Drogheda Corporation. The rate of charges will increase by £64,000 next year.

Mr. M. Higgins

I can say, given my standard letter, that the Arts Council enjoys a statutory independence from me under two valuable Acts.

Mr. Creed

Did the Minister send a copy to the Taoiseach yet?

Mr. M. Higgins

Absolutely. I am totally ecumenical in my correspondence. It must be frustrating for some people that I have to address the Arts Council's responsibilities. What I meant about autonomy with responsibility is that if I fight for more funding for the council, and it enjoys statutory independence from me under legislation and it now has more money to spend. It really does not behove me to interfere with its processes if it is following a policy of access and need. When we look at Structural Funding expenditure, it is appropriate for me to examine areas where there is no provision and no local authority capacity, no provision and some local authority capacity and underprovision and needed provision. Admittedly, the sum of money under that heading — approximately £27 million for the country over four years — is limited, but it gives us the opportunity to look at areas of deficiency. The views of the Arts Council, its plan and other submissions will also be valuable in helping us.

I thank the Chairman, the convenor and the Members of the committee, especially Deputy Creed, for their valuable and positive suggestions, which will be carefully considered to see what progress can be made on them. I also thank Members for their general support of this new Department. If I have spoken of my staff, it is because it is not always easy in a new Department. I am convinced that both Government and Opposition spokesmen can not only hold the ground taken, but advance it further.

Chairman

That concludes our consideration of the Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht Estimate. I thank the Minister, his officials and the Members of the committee for their valuable and constructive contributions. Subject to the agreement of the Whips, it is proposed to take the Education Estimates in the Dáil Chamber tomorrow.

The Select Committee will meet again on Thursday, 16 June, 1994 at 11 a.m., to consider the Estimates for the Department of Social Welfare.

The Select Committee adjourned at 5.30 p.m.