Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT (Select Sub-Committee on the Environment, Community and Local Government) díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Dec 2011

Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government (Supplementary)

This meeting has been convened to allow the committee to consider a Supplementary Estimate for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government - Vote 25. I welcome Deputy O'Dowd, Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Department of Communications Energy and Natural Resources with special responsibility for the NewERA project. I also welcome the officials from the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government: Mr. Maurice Coughlan, finance officer; Mr. Eddie Lewis, principal officer, housing division; Ms Yvonne Butler, higher executive officer, climate change policy section; and Ms Petra Woods, administrative officer, climate change policy section.

I remind members that in considering Estimates we should consider both the expenditure of the moneys and the outputs to be achieved by this expenditure. We have a duty to establish that moneys are being spent wisely and prudently and we also have a responsibility to consider what the Government aims to achievement and the impact of its expenditure and service provided.

I propose to begin with the Minister of State's opening statement. I will then call on Deputies in the following order, Deputy Troy and then Deputy Murphy. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank the committee for the invitation to speak here. I have a long speech which has been circulated already. If it is helpful, I can merely summarise the key issues.

First, the Minister, Deputy Hogan, is presently in Durban dealing with climate change issues. He is coming before the committee next week to discuss in full any issues that arise there and to brief it on the outcome of that conference.

This money is being spent on climate change. All sectors of socio-economic activity - agriculture and food, public health, water management, tourism, transportation, energy production, trade and forestry - are vulnerable. We are trying to co-operate internationally with the United Nations on this issue. This money is being ring-fenced for fast-start finance. It will be €10 million to be paid by Ireland to assist developing countries specifically responding to climate change.

The opportunity to make the proposed contribution arises from savings in the Department's Vote, specifically under subhead B1 from which most of the housing capital programme is funded. It is intended to transfer the funding to subhead D5 on international climate change.

The members are all probably aware of the background, how it arose and what our commitments are. As part of these preparations, Ireland committed to make a contribution of up to €100 million towards a financial package to be provided by developed countries in the three-year period 2010-2012. The purpose of the package was to assist developing countries in addressing climate change. In total, the EU is giving €7.2 billion in what is known as "fast-start finance".

In accordance with Ireland's association with the 2009 Copenhagen accord, the Government proposes, despite our severe difficulties here at home, to follow through on the commitment to the fast-start-finance package.

The term "fast-start finance" arises from the fact that the funding is to be provided over the short term as an interim step in the context of the ongoing international negotiations under the UN Convention. It is an important demonstration of good faith and acts as a down-payment on the efforts to assist developing countries in deploying clean energy, reducing deforestation and adapting to the impacts of global warming. It addresses the need for immediate and ambitious adaptation and mitigation action.

The total EU contribution is clear, €7.2 billion, and we are playing our part in that. To date, Ireland has delivered €66 million towards that commitment. This includes a contribution of €23 million from my Department's Vote in 2010 to the Global Climate Change Alliance established by the European Union in 2007, with the objectives of deepening the policy dialogue between the EU and developing countries on climate change, and providing support to targeted countries for both adaptation and mitigation measures. The balance of the €66 million reflects climate-related funding made available through the overseas development assistance programme of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

The priority now is to progress further Ireland's commitment to provide immediate financial support and to reassure developing countries that, even in the challenging economic circumstances in which we find ourselves, we recognise both the challenges they face in trying to deal with climate change and their urgent need for assistance. It is for that reason that I am now seeking approval to use this €10 million of available savings to make a further payment to Ireland's fast-start finance contribution, bringing the total contribution over the two years to €76 million.

Of the €10 million contribution under consideration today, it is proposed to make an €8 million contribution through the Global Climate Change Alliance established by the European Commission. The alliance has a strong development focus and is targeted primarily at least developed countries and small island developing states. It is already active in three of Ireland's priority overseas development assistance countries, Ethiopia, Tanzania, and Mozambique and, it is hoped, with further encouragement and support from Ireland, it will reach out to others in due course. Last year's €23 million contribution by Ireland is assigned to support projects in Uganda, Mozambique, Sierra Leone and Vietnam.

In recognising the danger that climate change will further aggravate global food insecurity, one of the objectives of the alliance is to provide priority funding to the agriculture, water and natural resource management sectors, as well as to disaster risk reduction. On the climate front-line, adaptation is not optional; it is an imperative. The cost cannot, and should not, be borne by those least responsible and least able to afford it.

It is proposed to contribute the remaining €2 million to the Least Developed Countries Fund established by the parties to the UNFCCC. The objective of the fund is to address the unique needs of the 48 least developed countries which are especially vulnerable to the adverse impacts of climate change. Support under the fund is targeted at the preparation and implementation of national adaptation programmes of action - a process for least developed countries to identify priority activities that respond to their urgent and immediate needs to adapt to climate change. Delay will inevitably increase their vulnerability and increase the cost of adaptation at a later stage. In total, the proposed contribution of €10 million represents a very positive step towards helping developing countries to deal with climate change and supporting the ongoing international efforts to find agreement on an effective global response. I would greatly welcome the support of the committee for this important Supplementary Estimate. I understand the Minister, Deputy Hogan, is making this point at the international conference in Durban today. He hopes to make his contribution with the consent of the Oireachtas.

With regard to the source of the money, given that the proposed Supplementary Estimate is intended to be financed from savings in the housing programme, I would like to take the opportunity to say a few words on housing, and on the voluntary housing sector in particular. The latter is a significant provider of social housing for persons with specific categories of need. Approximately 25,000 units have been delivered thus far. The capital assistance scheme provides the capital to pay grants to local authorities to enable them to advance loans to approved voluntary bodies providing housing for the elderly, homeless, disabled and other disadvantaged persons. In that context, €90 million was provided under subhead B1 of the Department's Vote for CAS in 2011. Despite the fact that the projected commitments under CAS going into 2011 exceeded the allocation, commitments under the programme were estimated at the start of 2011 to amount to €125 million. Expenditure under the programme during the year had been slow for a number of reasons.

The current economic downturn has caused significant delays for approved projects proceeding under the programme. In particular, disruption in the construction sector has resulted in projects suffering delayed starts, with contractors unable to get insurance bonds or working capital, projects being stretched out to keep smaller workforces in employment and contractors going into receivership and being unable to complete projects. Against a background of such delays, savings of €10 million have been identified in regard to delayed projects to which there are not sufficient alternative schemes currently progressing that could be used to redirect the allocation in 2011.

I appreciate the committee's consideration of this Supplementary Estimate today. I also appreciate that members are looking forward to the wider discussion on climate change with the Minister, Deputy Hogan, next week. I acknowledge that the proposed Supplementary Estimate represents a further substantial contribution by Ireland tothe fast start finance package at a particularly difficult time economically and fiscally. However, I cannot overemphasise the responsibility of developed countries to strengthen and progress the international negotiations by honouring the commitment enshrined in the Copenhagen accord.

I thank the Minister of State for attending this morning. I am deputising for my colleague Deputy Áine Collins. We welcome this measure and the fact that Ireland remains steadfast regarding its international commitments. It is important that developed countries such as Ireland do not renege on the less developed ones.

This issue is of global importance and will not be dealt with in isolation. I welcome the fact that the Minister is in Durban today. However, it would be remiss of me not to highlight the fact that while we are making an international commitment to pledge funds, the Government has still to bring forward its own Bill on climate change. This seems to have been put on the long finger. We should be dealing with this Bill as a priority and in a reasonable and fair manner. It should not place an unnecessary burden on farmers or other rural people. The Minister of State, as a rural Deputy like myself, knows the importance of rural areas.

I am amazed to hear this morning that there are savings in the housing budget considering the unprecedented housing crisis. In my constituency, the housing list is unbelievably long. I refer to the many people who cannot obtain housing for one reason or another. The local authorities do not have sufficient resources to provide new housing or build it. I was under the impression that the voluntary housing bodies about which we speak were to comprise one of the solutions to the housing problems and take over idle estates. This does not seem to be the case. While I welcome the fact that we are fulfilling our international obligations, I wonder whether we are fulfilling our obligation to our own people. The Minister of State referred to the elderly and people with disabilities. I refer to those with no housing. Is it wise to take money from the housing budget? Although this is the end of the year and the money has not been spent, the issue needs to be taken up with the new Minister of State responsible for housing whenever he or she is appointed by the Government. This would ensure that money allocated for housing next year will be spent in such a way that citizens will be looked after and can live in dignity. Ultimately, housing and food are the most important factors in ensuring self-respect. While I welcome the fact that we are fulfilling our international commitment, I am disappointed to hear the housing allocation was not fully spent last year.

Whoever is made responsible for this aspect of housing should ensure the money allocated for 2012 will be spent. I know of a voluntary housing agency in a constituency that cannot get funding or approval to build housing for the elderly, yet the Minister of State is saying today the money was not spent. There is something amiss, therefore. Will the Minister of State pass this on to whoever is appointed as the new Minister of State responsible for housing? I heard a rumour that it could be our Chairman. Perhaps I am speaking to the new Minister of State without realising it.

I share your optimism.

With regard to the commitment in the programme for Government, when can we expect to see climate legislation brought before the House? While we can pledge money and give all the money we like to international funds to help, we must act and play our part in addressing climate change. We must introduce the necessary legislation to ensure this.

Clearly we are contributing to the damage by exceeding limits or not reaching our targets. We are, therefore, obliged to contribute to the fund. If we do not meet the targets, we must buy carbon credits. I am surprised this has not been factored in with regard to the fund. I question whether the fund even exists. Last night, a financial resolution was tabled on increasing the tax per tonne of fossil fuel from €15 to €20. I asked whether the revenue would be put into a fund to retrofit houses, for example. Is the money to be ring-fenced by the Department of the Minister of State? Should we not be able to draw on this fund in dealing with this matter, rather than drawing on a fund for some other vital matter?

Consider the €2 million that is to go to the 48 least-developed countries, which will be affected most adversely by global warming. Ms Mary Robinson outlined the position on this very well not so long ago. Has the negative impact been quantified? What percentage of the fund contributed by the European Union will go towards the cost of global warming that must be borne by the countries in question?

Since women live longer than men, we are told a baby girl born today can expect to live to 100. We were given a stark warning that the planet may not be able to sustain us long enough for people to see their children and grandchildren prosper in the coming 100 years. This is an important century in terms of undoing the damage and we will have to be thoughtful because we do not inherit the earth, we merely borrow it from our children.

I share other speakers' concerns about the housing programme. Just the other night a man was found dead under cardboard boxes on a Dublin street. This budget should not leave a single shilling unspent while we face problems of that nature. It is scandalous that we have not yet filled the vacancy for Minister of State with responsibility for housing.

In regard to the 2012 projections in areas which reported underspends, is it anticipated that the difficulties in 2011 will not be repeated next year? Simon makes a plea for donations during every advertisement break on RTE radio. Can another unspent segment of the housing budget be redirected to this area?

I support the Supplementary Estimate but, like other speakers, I am surprised about the underspend of €10 million in the housing budget. Deputy Catherine Murphy referred to the issue of homelessness. Another issue which needs to be addressed is the shortage of shelters for victims of domestic violence. A number of housing projects have been cancelled or stalled in my own area, even though land was bought and Part 8 planning permission secured.

In the typical way we tend to deal with matters, we are throwing money at this problem. I am not suggesting the money will be badly spent but we are doing very little to solve the causes. We are spending money to deal with the effects of climate change, and rightly so in the context of the 48 developing countries in question, but we are also contributing to the problem. I asked about the climate change Bill on the Order of Business on several occasions. No date has been given for that legislation. It is welcome that the Minister is in Durban to debate climate change and we are meeting this morning to grant money out of the housing budget to deal with that issue but we are not doing anything about its causes. It is gross hypocrisy to continue down this track. I would like a date to be set for the debate on the climate change Bill so that we can deal with climate change seriously. As a developed country our carbon footprint is large compared to less developed countries.

I thank the Deputies for their comments. Deputies Troy, Stanley and Catherine Murphy asked about climate change. On 3 November the Minister, Deputy Hogan, published a review of climate change policy which had been undertaken by his Department. Ireland's emissions profile is different from that of most other EU member states, particularly in respect of the agriculture and transport sectors. We are on track to meeting our commitments under the Kyoto protocol for the period 2008-12 through a combination of emissions reductions, purchase of credits and the reduction in emissions resulting from the economic downturn. Our target for the period 2013-20 is challenging and even under the most optimistic scenarios we remain a significant distance from meeting it. A longer-term low carbon vision is required for the period 2013-15, reflecting the general policy direction developed at EU and wider international levels.

The programme for Government states: "We will publish a Climate Change Bill which will provide certainty surrounding government policy and provide a clear pathway for emissions reductions, in line with negotiated EU 2020 targets." In line with the programme for Government, the Minister intends to introduce climate legislation within the lifetime of this Government. However, he has indicated that it will be 2012 at the earliest before legislation can be published given the need to progress the broader climate policy agenda under the aegis of the Cabinet committee on climate change and the green economy.

I appreciate Deputy Stanley was not here when I stated that the Minister has agreed to come before the Committee on the Environment, Transport, Culture and the Gaeltacht next week to discuss all aspects of climate change policy. He had to go to Durban but he will be happy to discuss in an open and transparent manner all issues arising in this area.

In regard to why the money is coming from housing, the budget for my Department is €1.6 billion and the savings accrued total €10 million. In the context of the totality of the budget, this is a small amount. I agree with members, however, that any money that can be spent on housing must be spent on housing. That was the Minister's intention. These savings have been provided for out of a capital investment of €247 million for the provision of social housing in 2011. Specific savings have been identified under the capital assistance scheme for projects advanced by approved housing bodies. The main reasons for the savings are delays in the commencement of projects. It is not the case that we do not want to spend the money. We cannot spend it in the period of time for which it was allocated because of issues pertaining to construction, bond and insurance delays. This problem is not unique to housing. I am aware of schools in my constituency for which money was made available for refurbishment but the work did not commence by the date expected. The Government is not refusing to spend the money; it is a result of the economic cycle.

The Minister of State claims that the Government is not holding it up. I do not want to be parochial but I will use County Laois as an example. I am aware of a scheme which secured Part 8 planning permission three or four years ago and is ready to go. As late as last week I was told it is still waiting for departmental approval.

Is that a social housing scheme by a voluntary body?

It is an energy efficient scheme.

I would be happy to seek an answer to the Deputy's inquiry.

The land has been purchased.

If I cannot get a response today I will revert to the Deputy on it.

It is not being held up by the county council.

I do not have the full facts but, in terms of the totality of the moneys, that is where the delay is arising.

I acknowledge this area is not the Minister of State's direct responsibility. Credits certainly have to be purchased given our position as a small island economy with important agriculture and transport sectors. We cannot simply cut our carbon emissions overnight. However, one of the things the previous Government got right was to offer incentives for people to purchase motor vehicles which produced fewer carbon emissions. The significant increase in the motor tax on low emission cars, albeit from a low base, announced in yesterday's Budget Statement flies in the face of our efforts to cut carbon emissions. That was introduced in 2008, but it is only now that it has started to have an effect. People who could not afford to go out and buy a brand-new car did not. Now, however, we are into the fourth year of it, and people were buying second-hand cars, but instead of buying a 2007 or 2006 car they were actually willing to put the additional money they would save on car tax towards upgrading to a 2008 or 2009 model with fewer carbon emissions. We need to examine such things.

The Minister of State spoke about bringing in the legislation in the lifetime of the Government. How long will that take? It will not happen in 2012; will it happen in 2015 or 2016? At the rate the Government Members are going overboard, it might be next year; we do not know. However, we want to know when the legislation will be introduced - we need a more definite timeframe. I concur with what Deputy Stanley has said. I also know of a number of schemes in which the only hold-up was in obtaining departmental approval for funding. It is worrying. Deputy Murphy said that while there are people homeless in Ireland, not one red cent of that money should be unspent for whatever reason, including bureaucracy and red tape. The money should be committed and the Government should ensure it is spent. It is a shame that we have gone six weeks without replacing the Minister of State with responsibility for housing.

With regard to the fast-start finance, what oversight exists to ensure the money is being spent for the required purposes? Can the sum be offset against our overseas aid commitments, or is it separate from these?

With regard to Deputy Troy's comment on the issue of carbon-reducing policies and legislation, the motor tax is possibly one of the best examples of what one should not do, as it is a good idea which has been wrongly executed. When the carbon emissions tax on motor vehicles was introduced on 1 July 2008, it brought the motor industry to a crippling halt because nobody bought cars. People buy cars at the start of the year, and when the tax was introduced, it had a crippling effect. That legislation should not have been introduced until 1 January 2009. Anybody who observed how that legislation was implemented would agree to that.

There is a certain degree of measurement that needs to be applied to the changes in carbon tax policy that were announced yesterday. Previously, a person could buy a top-of-the-range Lexus, possibly for around €100,000, and pay only €105 in tax, while a person buying a small petrol-model Toyota Yaris was paying €250 or €300. There seems to be a certain degree of inequity in such an arrangement. The structure of the idea was good, but there have been implementation difficulties from the start, and people who bought expensive motor vehicles were getting the cheapest tax available.

Two of my points were not answered. If €66 million has been put into this fund already and there is an additional €10 million going in, that tells me there is an ongoing obligation. If this is the case, why is there not a budget to reflect this? That is the point I was making about the money that is taken in by way of carbon taxes. Is it not ring-fenced for purposes such as retrofitting houses, dealing with the effects of carbon emissions and contributing to funds such as this? It should not be required to be taken out of another budget.

To go back to the capital budget for housing, €10 million of the €247 million total has not been spent. As we have heard in this discussion, there is nothing to prevent us from moving funds from one place to another where there is such a requirement. There are increasing numbers of people sleeping on the street. This week, somebody died on the street, and we will see more people die before Christmas. If there are funds in that area, they should be examined with a view to dealing with that issue, because it is a crisis.

I appreciate the points that members are making and I will bring them to the attention of the Minister, Deputy Hogan. I note and understand what they are saying.

I will deal with the issue of motor tax first. The new motor tax regime, notwithstanding the fact that there has been an increase, still retains its environmental incentive. All else being equal, it is cheaper, from the point of view of motor tax, for a person to buy the car with the lowest carbon emissions than any other car. The CO2 bands were introduced with the aim of encouraging a switch to lower-emission vehicles, which happened. The changes were introduced with a second principle of revenue neutrality. It has always been the intention to keep the motor tax system under review to ensure it meets these twin objectives over the years, and there will be an overall review of motor tax and VRT in 2012.

Deputy Murphy made an important point about moneys not being spent in the housing sector. Like everybody else, I am deeply concerned about anybody who is homeless and about the sad death that occurred. When the Department was doing its sums initially, it calculated that the projects that were approved would cost this amount of money in total, but they did not all proceed. However, notwithstanding the delays, none of the approved projects has been cancelled, and they will proceed with full funding in 2012 and 2013. What my Department is saying is that any project that has been approved will proceed, but the money was not spent this year because, for whatever reason, the approved projects did not proceed to the stage at which payments could be made.

The Minister did not answer the question about the fund for credits. If we are going to have an obligation every year, why is there not a fund?

Ireland is standing by its commitments. We decided to give €100 million in fast-start finance to assist the least developed countries. To date, including this Estimate, we will have given €76 million. Notwithstanding the constrained financial circumstances we are all in, we are still committed to meeting the €100 million target, and that is what we will do. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, which was mentioned earlier, is also involved in this funding; it is between us and that Department that the money is being spent. I believe we are meeting our commitments in very difficult circumstances.

That concludes the select sub-committee's consideration of the Supplementary Estimate for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Vote 25. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy O'Dowd, and the officials of the Department, Mr. Coughlan, Mr. Lewis, Ms Butler and Ms Woods, for attending and assisting us today.

Barr
Roinn