SELECT COMMITTEE ON TOURISM, SPORT and RECREATION díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 Jun 2000

Vol. 3 No. 1

Estimates for Public Services 2000.

Vote 35 - Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation (Revised).

Chairman

On behalf of the Select Committee, I welcome the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, Deputy McDaid, and the Minister of State at the Department with responsibility for local development and the national drugs strategy team, Deputy Eoin Ryan. I also welcome their officials, Ms Julia O'Neill, Mr. Con Haugh, Ms Susan McGrath and Mr. Ger Branville.

We meet to consider the Revised Estimate for the Department which amounts to just under £196 million in 2000. A proposed timetable has been circulated, but the Minister of State, Deputy Eoin Ryan, has asked that we consider subheads D1 to D5 first as he is unable to remain with us for the whole morning. Is that agreed? Agreed. I invite the Minister of State, Deputy Eoin Ryan, to make his opening statement.

Minister of State at the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation (Mr. E. Ryan)

I thank the Chairman and members for allowing me to go first. We are conducting a review of the national drugs strategy and we are visiting various places throughout the country. I am supposed to be in Galway at 3 o'clock, so I thank the committee for allowing me to go first.

I welcome this opportunity to appear before the Select Committee in my capacity as Minister of State at the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation on the subject of the Estimates for the Tourism, Sport and Recreation Vote. Over the next few minutes, I will concentrate on the subheads of the Vote which deal with local development social inclusion measures and the national drugs strategy for which I have responsibility within my Department.

The local development social inclusion measures make provision for expenditure of £34.39 million this year. Local development is about harnessing and combining the skills, talents and resources of the community and the public and private sectors and investing them in an integrated set of actions designed to address the most pressing needs in a selected area. As committee members may be aware, funding for the 38 partnerships and 33 ADM community groups throughout Ireland has been administered by Area Development Management Limited, ADM, the intermediate company set up specifically for this purpose by the Government and the European Commission. In 1999, Area Development Management Limited paid out £29 million to support local development agencies, bringing the total spend since 1994 close to £100 million and leaving £15 million to be spent on the finalisation of the action plans in 2000.

Over £1 billion is earmarked in the national development plan to tackle social inclusion and my Department will administer in the region of £420 million on social inclusion interventions. The new regional operational programmes have been submitted to the Commission. The local development measures in the regional operational programmes will be funded entirely from Exchequer money within my Department's Vote from the £370 million to be provided over the life of the national development plan. It will build on the 1994-9 experience of the operational programme for local, urban and rural development and will continue the empowerment of communities in sponsoring innovative actions in the field of enterprise, education, training and community development. It is also intended that efforts to refocus mainstream programmes on local needs will be intensified. ADM recently issued detailed guidelines for partnership and community groups on the drawing up of their strategic plans for 2000-6 and for their short-term implementation plans for 2000-3. The plans are due into ADM by the end of July when they will be assessed and allocated funding.

Subhead D2 - Urban Initiative - provides funding for the Operational Programme Urban, Ireland, 1996-1999, and for the recently announced Urban II Initiative, 2000-2006; £7.929 million is included under this subhead. The urban initiative was devised by the European Commission to address, in an integrated way, a range of problems associated with socio-economic exclusion within deprived sections of inner city and peripheral urban areas. The 1996-9 programme, which had a total budget of £22 million, has had four subhead programmes, one each for the two selected areas in Dublin - Ballymun, Darndale and Finglas and Tallaght and north Clondalkin - one for the Cork north city area and the fourth covered technical assistance. In each area significant progress has been made in terms of the number of capital projects that have been put in place. Allied to the range of capital projects, a whole range of actions have been implemented which are designed to maximise participation in the implementation of the plan and to address gaps in work related and personal development skills and to meet the social needs of people requiring special support.

The 2000 funding will support the cost of implementation of the remaining projects in the 1996-9 plan - £6.3 million - and will allow £1.5 for year one of the new plan. The guidelines for the 2000-6 plan were published in the official journal of the European Communities on 19 May this year when member states were invited to present proposals for Urban II programmes by mid-November 2000. In Ireland's case the European Commission has decided that one area should be selected for urban support and the minimum population size should be 20,000 and a sum of 5 million euros - £3.9 million - has been earmarked as Ireland's share of the EU funds allocated to Urban II. The Irish Government will provide the matching share of Exchequer funds from the Vote of my Department.

Subhead D3 provides funds for the Programme for Peace and Reconciliation in Northern Ireland and the Border counties. The programme was established following the ceasefire in autumn 1994 and its aim is to reinforce progress towards a peaceful and stable society, promoting urban and rural regeneration and developing cross-Border co-operation by extending social inclusion, increasing economic development and creating employment. The Department of Finance is the lead Department for the peace programme. This subhead, which includes a provision of £9.834 million in 2000, provides funding for 11 major development programmes, for which ADM is the implementing body through its office in Monaghan.

Subhead D4 relates to the drugs initiative and £14 million has been provided for this initiative in this year's Estimates. The Government is determined to tackle the drug problem and we have committed significant resources to achieving this aim. In the last year the Government has approved the allocation of a further £15 million on top of an earlier £10 million to allow the local drugs task forces to update their action plans. The task forces have made very considerable progress in the last three years since their establishment. As a result of initiatives developed through these task forces we have set up approximately 50 advice and support centres for drug users and their families. These centres complement nearly 50 treatment clinics which have already been put in place by the Eastern Regional Health Authority. A key priority in the next few years will be to move people in treatment towards fuller rehabilitation and reintegration into society. In this regard the task forces will be placing considerable emphasis in their new plans on developing innovative rehabilitation programmes for stabilised drug users.

The task forces are also doing excellent work in creating greater awareness about the causes, nature and effects of drug misuse, with nearly 350 schools already having undergone drug awareness programmes and approximately 6,000 school-children have participated in these programmes. We are currently in the process of reviewing our overall national drugs strategy and our aim is to ensure that the response to the drugs problem remains relevant to the situation as it exists on the ground. We are conscious that drug misuse is occurring nationally and we are determined to ensure the problem, which has engulfed disadvantaged communities in Dublin, is not allowed to develop elsewhere. The review will involve a wide consultation process and a number of consultative fora are currently taking place at venues around the country. We have also invited submissions from individuals and organisations working in the drug field. It is our aim to have a revised strategy approved by the Cabinet sub-committee on social inclusion and in place before the end of this year at the latest.

Regarding the integrated services process, the Government is committed to addressing the problems of urban deprivation and social exclusion as a matter of top priority. One of the major stumbling blocks to the effectiveness of existing initiatives is the history of insufficient integration and co-operation between organisations in the State funded sector and delivery of services to these areas. To that end the Government agreed in 1998 to initiate an integrated services process, or ISP, to enhance the delivery of State services in severely deprived areas in conjunction with the local communities. Four different areas with endemic social problems were chosen as target areas in this pilot project - Dublin's north-east inner city, Dublin 8 flat complexes, including Fatima Mansions, St. Theresa's Gardens, St. Michael's estate and Dolphin House, Jobstown in Tallaght and Togher in Cork. Under subhead D1 £500,000 is allocated to assist the process. A second progress report which went before the Cabinet sub-committee on social inclusion in May indicated that to date the process had been successful in identifying priorities for action in each area which were now being targeted. The goal is now to identify tangible successes which can be used as models of best practice in urban black spots.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State for his contribution. Does any member wish to comment on subheads D1 to D5?

Mr. S. Ryan

This is an important issue as drug abuse is now a national problem. While opiate abuse is still largely an urban problem, non-opiates are now widely available in towns and villages throughout the country. In 1996, when the first report was published, it was estimated that there were 3,593 heroin addicts presenting for treatment, while in 2000 it is estimated that 13,000 heroin addicts are presenting for treatment or in contact with the authorities in some way. It should also be clearly noted - we are all in agreement on this - that the brunt of the drug problem continues to be carried by disadvantaged communities. The Minister of State referred to treatment centres. When there is a demand for treatment waiting lists become inevitable. It should be the responsibility of the health boards to acquire appropriate properties and to proceed with their conversion to drug treatment centres. In some cases there may be space either within or on the grounds of a local health centre to provide a treatment facility. Health boards themselves should develop better protocols to inform communities of the type of treatment centre being provided, the safeguards in place, how they will operate and who they will serve.

The Labour Party feels that treatment centres should be community based and should provide treatment for the members of the communities in which they are located; this is very important. Regarding disadvantage, the various task forces in the past recognised the need for diversion to prevent young people from entering the cycle of drug abuse in the first place. While we recognise that money has been made available under the national drugs strategy to develop sports and other recreational facilities in disadvantaged areas, this funding is often very slow to be released. A comprehensive independent new service which would signpost new services to young people should be based in all disadvantaged areas where there are high rates of delinquency and/or people leaving school early. Disadvantaged areas are struggling to maintain youth services because of insufficient resources. This is a major problem at a time when it is becoming more and more difficult to get volunteers involved. These youth services should act as a one-stop-shop for young people, providing a range of services including counselling, job seeking support and advice and referral to education and training. Despite some improvements under the drugs task forces and the young people's facilities and services fund, the lack of proper sport and recreational facilities in disadvantaged areas continues to leave few alternatives for young people. The difficult process of bidding for community grants by football clubs in disadvantaged areas is unacceptable. Groups which provide recreational services for young people and have a proven record of working with disadvantaged children should not have to struggle for adequate premises and equipment. Clubs without premises are mainly those in disadvantaged areas. The lack of these facilities leaves some young people with no alternative but to use drugs and such things.

I am concerned about these issues but acknowledge the work carried out in this area and wish the new Minister of State success. However, notwithstanding the moneys available, the reality on the ground is different and needs examination. I look forward to putting questions to the Minister of State on these issues.

Mr. E. Ryan

I appreciate the Deputy's comments. This process was originally set up by Deputy Rabbitte and the ministerial task force and was continued by the drugs task forces under Deputy Flood. We have come from what can only be considered as a very low base to making considerable progress. We are obviously only at the beginning but there are over 300 projects in the drugs task force areas being funded. It takes time for these projects to take effect because they are community based. These areas are not like middle class areas where people can knock on the door of the local solicitor, accountant or professional person because such people are just not there. It is more a case of people in the task force areas being slower to draw down their funding than the funding being stopped. Many projects funded by the task forces will begin to bear fruit in the next year or two and we will see many facilities. This is already the case in many areas and we will see much progress.

All of the drugs task forces are producing new plans in July for which we will provide funding. Many of the existing projects will be mainstreamed and we have asked them to bring the projects to us. About 200 projects are being considered for mainstreaming. This is a slow process but the Deputy will know this is a result of 30 years of enormous neglect. There is no magic wand and it will be a slow process to make significant inroads in recreational, sporting and educational facilities and so on. However, we have made a significant start under Deputies Rabbitte and Flood and hopefully I will be able to make similar progress.

Mr. S. Ryan

In the context of subhead D1, from a practical point of view what improvements or facilities will be provided by the £500,000 for Fatima Mansions, St. Michael's Estate, Dolphin House, St. Theresa's Gardens and Togher, Cork? As regards the urban scheme, the Minister of State said the European Commission has decided that one area should be selected and the minimum population must be 20,000 people. How does one decide on the area and how does this tie in with the Government's overall strategy?

Mr. E. Ryan

The purpose of the integrated services process is to develop a new way of doing business that will lead to a more focused and better co-ordinated response by the statutory authorities in urban black spots as a basis for a model of best practice. The ISP has been developed under the auspices of the interdepartmental committee on local development and is being steered by a small group from the Departments of Tourism, Sport and Recreation, Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Environment and Local Government and Education and Science, Dublin Corporation and from area development management, and has targeted four areas of intense urban disadvantage - Dublin's north east inner city, Dublin 8, Jobstown, Tallaght and Togher, Cork.

Each of the relevant Departments and statutory agencies has designated an official at local level who is responsible for driving the integrated services process within the Department or agency. The local nominees identify priority themes for action in each area and are progressing these as part of an implementation theme. They are being assisted in this process by a national co-ordinator based in ADM Limited who is looking after operational aspects of the project, and by four development and monitoring officers - one based in each target area.

External evaluators, PriceWaterhouseCoopers, completed the first progress report on the ISP in May 2000 which indicated that the process is working very well locally but there is a need to heighten the engagement of top level management within the participating organisations. The second report due in September 2000 will identify best approaches which can be replicated in other urban black spots. A final report will be published in December 2000.

On foot of the evaluation report, the ISP national steering committee submitted a second interim progress report on the ISP to the Cabinet sub-committee on social inclusion at its meeting on 18 May. The sub-committee fully endorsed the main recommendations contained in the report.

I was at the launch of the Dublin 8 progress report and those involved - the local community and those from State agencies - were very positive. People stated that, for the first time, this process was going to come to grips with many of the very difficult social problems. ISPs have experienced difficulties, some of which I have outlined. However, there is a general feeling that everyone is working together in a focused way. There are difficult problems in some of these areas but the feedback we are getting is that the process is making a significant impact.

Mr. Allen

I thank the Minister of State for his contribution. I agree with him that the schemes put in place by the ministerial task force in 1996-7 took some time to take root. I also understand the impediments local communities face in getting projects off the ground. Sometimes they do not have the professional resources available to them. I compliment the Minister of State on his work over the past few months since taking office.

I agree with him that there are few alternatives to drugs and crime in the areas concerned; I agree with most of what he said. The last urban programme was between 1996 and 1999 but because of delays in some of the projects there were serious cost over-runs. I presume these will be accommodated this year in the money allocated for urban programmes.

As regards the second urban programme, the indications are there will be only one area with a minimum population of 20,000. Has a decision been made which area will be selected? Will it be outside Dublin or those areas already allocated funding under the first urban programme? Has the Minister of State any idea which area will be selected?

There are major problems. I also have to deal with them in my constituency. There is an urban programme and a drugs task force in north Cork city. I have reservations about some things but generally speaking they are working well and are dealing with the key social issues which have never been dealt with in such a way before. I wish the Minister well in his future endeavours in that area.

Mr. E. Ryan

As I said there will only be one Urban II programme in Ireland and selection will be on the basis of a range of issues related to social exclusion such as early school leaving and long-term unemployment. It will be up to the Government, based on the reports it receives, to choose the area to be selected. There is a steering group for each area and all issues in terms of funding have been addressed and we are not aware of any problem.

Mr. S. Ryan

How does the designation of an area and European funding tie in with the Government's strategy? Will the area identified get support over and above what was originally envisaged by the Government or will the main resource be put into that area?

Mr. E. Ryan

There is much overlap. Many would say the drugs task forces overlap with partnerships and that they, in turn, are overlapping Urban I.

Mr. S. Ryan

Is the Minister saying there is too much overlapping?

Mr. E. Ryan

No. Some people would say there is too much overlapping, but the drugs task forces should be separate from the partnerships and focus on the problem of drugs. The area will be chosen based on levels of social exclusion, high unemployment, early school leaving and all the problems of which we are aware. It will be the area with the worst record and with a population of approximately 20,000. I do not see why this would affect the funding of an existing local drugs task force or partnership group in the area.

Mr. S. Ryan

So it should be able to supplement the existing services in the area?

Mr. E. Ryan

Yes. I am not long in this position, but my opinion is that the integrated services process is the way forward in terms of cracking the problem - it is very positive.

Mr. S. Ryan

Does the Minister think there is light at the end of the tunnel in terms of dealing with the problem?

Mr. E. Ryan

The problem of social exclusion?

Mr. S. Ryan

No, the problems relating to drugs in general.

Mr. E. Ryan

If we tackle social exclusion and poverty we can tackle the problem of heroin. So called recreational drug use is a much bigger challenge and will be more difficult to combat. Abuse of heroin is almost exclusively confined to areas which have suffered from long-term neglect and we must ensure the heroin problem does not spread to other parts of the country, which is one reason we are carrying out a review of the national drugs strategy.

It is important to tackle social exclusion and early school leaving. Recently a doctor asked me to see what he was doing on the ground. He showed me the files, without the names, of people involved with heroin, and practically everyone of them left school between 12 and 15 years of age. The connection between early school leaving and heroin abuse is quite extraordinary.

Chairman

I know the Minister has a previous engagement. I thank him for his contribution and wish him well with his work.

Mr. E. Ryan

I thank the Chair and the committee.

Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation (Dr. McDaid)

I congratulate the Chair and wish her well in her new position.

I thank the committee for receiving the Estimates for the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation. I am particularly pleased to have the opportunity to meet the committee and discuss the Estimates and associated matters. The Minister of State, Deputy Ryan, has already outlined the strategies and objectives in relation the subheads for which he has delegated responsibility. I propose to go through the other key areas of my Department's Vote.

First, I would like to focus on the administrative budget for my Department which spans subheads A1 to A8 and includes items such as pay, travel, subsistence, training, consultancies, IT, telecommunications and other office premises expenses. The Estimate provision for 2000 is £4.497 million and represents an increase of 26% over the 1999 provisional outturn of £3.563 million. The allocation this year includes the carry over of savings of £208,000 from 1999 under the terms of the administrative budget agreement with the Department of Finance. I understand Deputies have a copy of the Estimate, and they may wish to ask questions.

Chairman

It is up to members to deal with it in whatever way they wish.

Dr. McDaid

I would like to facilitate Deputies, probably at my own demise.

Chairman

The Minister may make an opening statement if he wishes. It is probably best to deal with the subheads individually. We will deal first with subheads B1 to B12.

Dr. McDaid

I would like to concentrate on these subheads which make provision for the expenditure of £90 million on tourism services across a diverse range of activities. The tourism industry has been performing extremely well over the past decade or so. Over that time the industry has been recording annual increases in both overseas visitor numbers and foreign exchange earnings which see Ireland at the top of the international tourism performance league. Last year was another highly successful year for tourism, with a record number of people both at home and abroad choosing Ireland as their holiday destination. Our international visitor numbers for 1999 exceeded six million for the first time, while foreign revenue earnings for the year rose to a record £2.5 billion. Tourism is now one of our biggest industries, providing jobs for 135,000 in the economy. This represents an additional 52,000 jobs in the industry since 1990.

The upward trend in visitor numbers, foreign revenue and employment vividly confirms that Irish tourism has been an outstanding success, one of the fastest growing sectors of the economy and, more importantly, a major contributor to Ireland's economic success. We must, however, avoid becoming complacent about the long track record of success and the excellent results achieved to date. The considerable challenge which tourism now faces is to consolidate our success to date and to create further economic growth and employment. There is an overwhelming need, therefore, to enhance our competitive position vis-à-vis rival destinations and in so doing to ensure we sustain the existing growth levels and performance and expand market share worldwide in future.

I cannot overstate the contribution which two successive EU Operational Programmes for Tourism have made to our recent tourism performance. The funding secured under the National Development Plan 2000-2006, will do much to consolidate our position in international markets. My Department, with valuable support from the industry, was able to construct a case which enabled me argue and secure Government agreement for a major investment commitment to tourism in the plan. The plan, which was launched late last year, fully recognises the major contribution the tourism sector is making to economic and social development and its potential to helpto promote more balanced regional development. A sum in excess of £350 million will be available in public financial support for tourism marketing, training and product development over the next seven years to complement investment by the industry itself. Tourism will also benefit significantly from proposed investment in infrastructural services such as roads, public transport, regional airports and environmental services as well as in complementing areas such as culture and heritage, marine and rural tourism.

In a departure from previous practice, there is no separate tourism operational programme as the number of such programmes nationally has been significantly reduced to five. However, I have ensured that tourism will receive ring-fenced financial allocations in four of the programmes. Through our inclusion in a wider number of operational programmes, we should be in a position to influence broader economic and infrastructural investment which will have an important bearing on the future development of the sector. The most exciting development under the national development plan is a commitment of £150 million for the creation of Ireland's first ever multi-annual tourism marketing fund. This is equivalent to more than £20 million per year for international tourism destinations and niche marketing over the next seven years.

Ms Coughlan

On subhead B.12, the tourism product development grant-in-aid, I notice the Minister has made strident efforts regarding the marketing budget and has succeeded in infiltrating many new markets. I am sure he is aware of the ongoing concerns about gaps in the product, particularly in the regions. I presume the funding under this subhead refers to the previous national development plan, so will this funding be used to pay successful applicants who are only drawing down funding now or does it refer to new applications?

Dr. McDaid

This is the product development part of the new national development plan on which £100 million will be expended over the next six years. Some £40 million of that will be in the BMW region and £60 million will be in the southern and eastern region. That funding will be provided to new product going into those regions. In discussions yesterday, some people suggested that some of this funding should go towards upgrading small hotels, etc., in the BMW region. I am opposed to that because this is the last chance we will have in either of these regions to upgrade real products to attract people into the regions. I appreciate that some of the hotels in these areas require assistance to upgrade themselves. Experience shows that there has been a 16% explosion in new hotels over the past number of years and people in the private sector are perfectly capable of upgrading hotels. If people come into an area, that will automatically mean that hotels will have to be upgraded. If we started to use this money to upgrade small hotels, it would be gobbled up very quickly and we would lose our last chance to develop proper product. Rather than individual towns taking on the task, local authorities and county managers should consult with local tourism bodies - as has happened in Donegal - and form a committee which would decide what is best for a particular county. Such a committee might decide to develop equestrian or water sports facilities in a cluster and large levels of funding would be provided for that.

Ms Coughlan

Will this funding be administered by the Department?

Dr. McDaid

No, it will be administered through the regional councils and possibly through independent boards which will be set under the councils' aegis. The Product Management Board was formerly an independent six person committee which decided on how these funds would be spent. The Department of Finance has yet to finalise this matter but I expect the regional assemblies will make an input, possibly through an assembly member being appointed to a committee which would have knowledge of the viability of particular tourism products. I expect that the funding will be administered along those lines although the matter has not yet been finalised.

The national development plan is currently with the EU and will probably not be available until the end of July or perhaps August. The EU will have to determine what constitutes State aid, etc.

Ms Coughlan

On subhead B.3 in regard to North-South tourism, a sum of £6 million has been allocated to the joint marketing initiative. Will that be exclusive to Europe?

Dr. McDaid

This funding is provisional on the establishment of the North-South body. Problems were experienced in regard to the North-South bodies and due to the necessity to ensure continuity in the area of tourism from year to year, it was not possible to omit a year in regard to the marketing area. This year, the tourism marketing body is being set up and it will comprise 50-50 representation in terms of people I will appoint and those from the industry. This initiative has been very well accepted by all sectors of the industry because, for the first time, they will have an input into marketing. Prior to this, industry representatives such as Aer Lingus and other carriers were spending up to £60 million on advertising their product which automatically meant they were advertising the country and we were spending similar amounts on advertising. It was recognised that this was bound to create overlap and waste so we combined the two strands in order to plan for the future. Once the new North-South company is established, the £6 million sum will be available to it.

Ms Coughlan

There is already a great deal of co-operation in this area.

Dr. McDaid

Yes, we have a high level of co-operation with the Northern Ireland Tourist Board and I commend my officials and those in the Northern Ireland office here on that. Sir Reg Empey and Michael McGimpsey are my counterparts in the North and they have also co-operated with me in this area.

Ms Coughlan

On B.7 which relates to CERT, the Minister will be aware that we have a tourism college in Killybegs and there are tourism courses in many of the institutes of technology. There is a grave concern about the low numbers of young people who are entering the industry as waitresses, housekeepers, etc. The industry is crying out for staff but young people do not appear to be interested in entering the profession. I would have grave concerns about that. Has CERT devised any initiatives to attract people into the industry?

Dr. McDaid

Yes, CERT has introduced a number of initiatives in an attempt to attract people into the industry. This is not the only sector which is experiencing shortages. Due to the industry's past image, it is not easy to attract people into it. The industry is doing its utmost to overcome that image difficulty. Many hoteliers are now paying top rates, particularly in Dublin, where there is a transfer market between hoteliers who are trying to keep staff who are being offered inducements just as in other sectors. Restaurateurs have introduced new methods. The quality employer scheme has been introduced. If a hotel is deemed a quality employer it means it is paying top wages and providing top training. Three more hotels in Donegal have been added to the quality employers league.

The industry realises there is a problem and that it will have to do more in this area. Recent research has shown that only 60% of hotels and 80% of restaurants do not involve themselves in training. If they are to encourage people into the industry, they must become more involved in training. CERT will continue to do so. Our unemployment rate is now approximately 4.6% or 4.7% and we are trying to encourage as many Irish people as possible into the tourism industry. Men and women of 40 to 45 years of age and over who have their families reared, particularly women, and who up to now have been involved in voluntary organisations would like to get back into employment. We have introduced initiatives in 15 different centres throughout the country which have been very successful. People are being informed through their local radio stations that there are courses in their areas geared towards the type of work and industry in the particular area. People are being encouraged to take up these ten hour courses which last for approximately four to five weeks. The courses have been booked out. We had to set up an extra course in Donegal for women who wanted to train in a specific area. I hope next year to broaden out these courses. Courses have been set up successfully in Dublin, Limerick and, I hope, Cork.

CERT courses were set up in Sheriff Street. There was a fine building available with great staff and training. However, the problem was getting people from the black spots in Dublin - this may also happen in Cork - to travel to Sheriff Street. We have now set up CERT courses in different areas around Dublin. We have taken over a large building, provided training and all the facilities, including a creche, for people living in that area. They have been phenomenally successful. When I last visited the area - the course finished on 5 December - all these people had got jobs on 6 December. Two people told me that they had been offered employment in the Conrad Hotel six weeks before they finished the course. We should expand this to some of those 4.6% or 4.7% unemployed who I believe can be trained. However, we must weigh up whether this is value for money, which I believe it is. There is 100% uptake for the scheme.

Ms Coughlan

That is fabulous but we never see good publicity about the issue.

Dr. McDaid

It has happened in disadvantaged areas such as Clondalkin, Ballymun and so on where there are not sufficient places available on these courses. We must reduce the unemployment figure by training Irish people to deal with visitors. These people are available in those areas. Young men and women, and people of more advanced years, are taking up jobs. This scheme has been a great success and, if it takes off in Limerick, we will then set up courses in Cork, Sligo and Waterford.

Mr. Allen

In view of the strength of sterling and the peace process, which we all welcome, why has there been a fair level of stagnation in relation to visitors from Britain? I tried to put down a few Dáil Questions on this matter but I was told it was a matter for Bord Fáilte and that the Minister has no responsibility in this regard. Surely the Minister has responsibility for policy. How is our policy failing in relation to the British market and is there a proposal to carry out a review of the British market in view of what is happening? I also tried to raise the question of ferry services and charges. Has the Department spoken with the ferry carriers regarding services and charges? I believe this is an area which discourages people from travelling to Ireland. Will the Minister give us his views on the British market which has always been the cornerstone of the Irish tourism industry?

Dr. McDaid

Bord Fáilte figures indicate a possibility of the figures stagnating in relation to the British market. Given the peace process and the strength of sterling, that would be a worrying factor. These figures are being kept under review. One must remember that huge competition is opening up in other parts of Europe. Low fare airlines are operating to different parts of Europe. In my opinion those low fare airlines that were once coming to this country have now begun operating in six to eight new routes from London alone.

This brings me back to the question of access and landing charges. If one reads the back page of The Times and discovers that Milan is £59 and Dublin is £89, one will go to Milan. That is why it is important that this country maintains low fare charges which have been a great success. Nonetheless, we will be keeping the issue under review. The British market of over three million visitors remains by far our greatest market. I understand figures for the winter season were up 7% but we are more concerned about recent figures. The figures for the UK continue to be exceptionally high with an increase overall. Three million visitors have been coming to this country from the UK for the last number of years. This begs the question have they been there, seen that and done that. I do not believe this is so because there are certain parts of the UK in which we could market Ireland, apart from London. Outside London, Dublin is still the third favoured short hop city in Europe outside of Paris and Amsterdam. However, I agree with the Deputy that we must keep this issue under review.

In relation to ferry charges and services, there was a dramatic drop in the ferry business as a result of the duty free issue. In my opinion, there was a natural reaction to increase charges at that stage which rebounded on the ferry service when the numbers travelling took a sharp dip. Approaching the millennium, the ferries were packed between December, January and February because people were under the impression that aircraft were unsafe for some reason. Therefore, the ferries have recovered dramatically. I think they realise, and we must all realise in a different context, that no matter how one travels to this country, we must never forget that we are an island and it is vitally important that landing charges are kept under control. However, I will not comment on the ferries.

As an aside, because even here in Leinster House we talk about inflation, food inflation has formed an important part of general inflation. In the Leinster House self-service restaurant, for example, one will notice that a side salad is weighed and charged according to weight. One pays almost the same price for a side salad, which is made up of potatoes, beetroot, lettuce and a few other things, as for a main course. Few of us realise how our money is being spent. Even here in Leinster House things which are in abundance in the country are being imperceptibly paid for. We should get our own house in order before we talk about others.

Mr. Allen

With regard to the 7% increase in cross channel traffic, has the Minister a breakdown on percentages for Dublin and the regions? Much cross channel traffic is business based traffic.

Dr. McDaid

The Deputy will note I use the word "visitors" rather than "tourists", "business people" or whatever. One must ask what is a tourist and what is an economic visitor. Both are coming into the country and both are adding to the Exchequer.

Mr. Allen

I notice the Minister mentioned Dublin quite frequently and remarked that people may be getting tired of the product.

Dr. McDaid

I did not say people were getting tired of the product. I said an indication of a dip, which has not shown in our recent figures, may be because more than 3 million people came from the United Kingdom. Dublin is still doing tremendously well.

Mr. Allen

What is being done to ensure more regional spread? Every year we hear lip service being paid to the idea of greater access to the regions through rail, air and roads. Is any group or committee co-ordinating these efforts? For example, what level of co-ordination is taking place between the Minister's Department and the Department of Public Enterprise to increase access to Cork, Shannon and regional airports? The problem of access is spoken of every year but it seems to be getting worse by the year. Very little is being done.

Dr. McDaid

That is a matter for the Minister for Public Enterprise. I have met a number of carriers and tried to persuade them to provide services from Dublin to Derry, Carrickfin, Sligo, Knock, Galway and so on. Carriers must make commercial decisions. I cannot take them by the scruff of the neck and force them to provide services. They will provide services if the taxpayer agrees to pay for empty seats but that is not possible. One can build an airport with the finest facilities but carriers must make a commercial decision to fly into it.

We have been successful in establishing a route from London to Derry and, more recently, Aer Arann has opened a service from Dublin to Derry. That company also flies to Carrickfin. Ryanair flies to Sligo and various carriers fly to various regional airports. Airlines make commercial decisions in this regard and any Government help would require a subsidy.

Mr. Allen

Can anything be done about the Cork-Dublin route? Aer Arann and Aer Lingus fly the route but the two airlines have an arrangement so their fares are fixed. Can fares structures be examined. The basic fare on the Dublin-Cork route is £92 and passengers can pay anything up to £130. Fares at that level are a major impediment to people flying to the regions. Can the Minister's Department and the Department of Public Enterprise co-operate with a view to reducing these charges?

The Minister mentioned the fact that carrier charges are a factor in people making decisions. Is he happy with the charges imposed by Aer Rianta?

Dr. McDaid

The only way to reduce charges in any area is through competition and when there is a monopoly there is no compeition. There will always be a problem flying to the regions because we have too many regional airports. If we reduced the number of regional airports we could concentrate on maintaining three or four airports well. That is a personal view. High fares are not conducive to people flying to the regions.

Landing charges are a major problem. In other areas where privatisation has taken place landing charges have automatically gone up, and appointing a regulator makes very little difference. A regulator must deal with many matters but his main purpose is to regulate charges. In my experience a regulator always sanctions increases in charges. It is vitally important that we keep landing charges down and I have openly expressed my view that Aer Rianta should not be privatised.

Mr. Allen

What is the current position regarding the regional authorities? We were told in the Dáil some months ago that a review was in progress.

Dr. McDaid

The report has been given to each regional authority. They have had it for approximately two weeks and it can be given to the committee also.

Mr. S. Ryan

While we have been very successful in recent years we could become complacent. For example, with the introduction of the national minimum wage many restaurants immediately increased prices. This could have further implications and I ask the Minister to comment.

Litter is a major problem. Are people working in the tourist industry dealing with this problem? We all have responsibilities in this area but are the people who are making money from tourism putting sufficient effort into dealing with this problem?

I am told that the funding allocations for the regional tourism boards have not been distributed. It is now June and the funds have not been allocated. Many groups and organisations have made applications but we have not been able to respond to them. If this is part of the national plan, it leaves a lot to be desired that as we come to the end of June these funds have not been made available.

Dr. McDaid

With regard to the first part of the Deputy's question on the national minimum wage, the way people have used the introduction of the national minimum wage to try to increase prices on the services they provide is a disgrace. They are using it as an excuse to put up those prices. That has happened in a number of areas but particularly in the services area. The tourism sector welcomed the introduction of the national minimum wage because people were regarded as being underpaid in that sector. We hoped the introduction of the national minimum wage would attract people into the tourism sector but unfortunately that has now been abused. Signs can be seen in different areas to the effect that because of the national minimum wage, prices have had to be increased. That is a disgrace.

On the regional tourism authorities, in order to get the maximum benefit from taxpayers' money, which I have been providing for the past two years, I am asking them to sign a contract between themselves and Bord Fáilte. That is a way of getting more from the regional tourism authorities, working hand in hand with Bord Fáilte. They have the contract now and once the contract is signed, that funding will automatically be made available to them.

With regard to the litter problem, I have said previously that this is a huge problem but the people who are sign-posting Dublin and Cork are not doing this country nor those two cities any good by drawing attention to the litter. The disposal of litter is an individual responsibility. Irish people are wonderful at sport and welcoming people, and we excel in many other fields, but in the whole area of litter we are an embarrassment. It is not the local authorities, TDs, Senators or public representatives who litter - they are the last people who would do that. It is an individual responsibility. The Government must do what it has to do and we will try tax incentives on litter products, but ultimately it is an individual responsibility. I recall reading statistics recently which stated that a number of local authorities - I do not know how many were involved - did not have any litter wardens appointed while others only had one or two to deal with entire areas. Until we get a proper litter force or until the traffic warden can duplicate as a litter warden, we will not get to the bottom of this problem. Margaret Thatcher launched a major marketing campaign on the litter problem with Richard Branson a number of years ago but it fell flat on its face. People tell me that we should educate our young people at school but that has been proven not to work in this case.

Chairman

Deputy Kelleher, a vote has been called in the Dáil.

Mr. Kelleher

I want a very detailed reply so we will have to come back to the matter.

Sitting suspended at 12.15 p.m. and resumed at 12.30 p.m.

Mr. Kelleher

The points I wish to make are not in the context of an individual subhead other than subhead B. As Deputy Allen said, while we are an island nation, I am concerned that people who decide impulsively to take a holiday here find the fares to this country excessive. While people who book well in advance will get cheap flights to this country, those who decide on a Thursday or Friday that they want to fly here for the weekend find it almost impossible to get a reasonable air fare. Weekend breaks or breaks that are slightly longer to destinations in the European Union, which people impulsively decide to take, represent a growing market in the European Union. That sector must be examined in the overall context of this area. While the Minister said this matter is outside his control, some incentives or mechanism should be put in place to encourage more competition that would open up that market. The cost of travelling by ferry must also be examined. I was recently quoted a fare for two people of more than £800 for a cabin and a car on the ferry from Cork to France. If it is that expensive to leave the country, it must be equally expensive to come into it. We are losing out because of the high charges levied on people coming into and leaving this country. We must consider this area with a view to encouraging competition in the air fares.

With regard to the German market, many people would have said that in the past one of the greatest advertisements for this country was Charlie's army and that wherever they went they created a positive impact which had a beneficial effect.

Mr. S. Ryan

Jackie's army.

Mr. Kelleher

Sorry, Jackie's Army. The German market is a major market. I was recently in the south of Spain to which the Germans seem to be going in their droves. We appear to be losing out on the number of Germans coming here. We will regret it in years to come if there is a fall-off in the number of Germans who come here.

With regard to advertising abroad, there is not much point in spending a great deal of money advertising in a country with a poor economy as it is unlikely there will be a major increase in the number of tourists from that country visiting this country. Is there a mechanism in place in Bord Fáilte or in the Minister's Department whereby economies that are doing well are targeted more vigorously than countries in which there is a slump in their economies?

With regard to landing charges, I am delighted the Minister has the same opinion as I and I hope that many more of his colleagues have the same opinion about them. If Aer Rianta was privatised, I would be concerned there might be an increase in landing charges, as the owners of such a privatised company would be only interested in the bottom line of finance rather than in the numbers travelling to and from this country.

The Minister mentioned our high bed occupancy. While high bed occupancy is positive for hoteliers, it leads to inflationary pressures on the cost of accommodation. It is a matter we will have to examine if the number of tourists travelling here continue to increase. Incentives could be introduced to encourage the development of hotels outside the Dublin area, particularly in the west and north-west, as the south-west seems to be doing well in terms of the number of tourists visiting there. I would welcome the Minister's views on those points.

Dr. McDaid

The Deputy raised five points. I wish to clarify the position on landing charges. The success of our tourism industry is evidenced by the fact that for the first time in our history six million tourists are visiting this country annually. This year, for the first time ever, one million American tourists will visit this country . While we may have our problems with the British, they have continued to support this country year after year and this year more than three million people from the UK will visit here. Our success in attracting that number of tourists has been due to the attraction and marketing of this country and the low charges operating for gaining entry to this country.

If a section of Aer Rianta was privatised, the main reason people would invest in such privatisation would be to make a profit at some stage. The only way people could make a profit on such an investment would be by an increase in charges. Even if charges were increased by only 0.5% or 1%, that percentage increase onto the bottom line of any airline company would be phenomenal, given that six million tourists are currently travelling to this country. In the event of an increase in charges, an airline travelling to this country would have two choices. It could decide not to pay the increased charges and pull out of the country. That is a major aspect that would have to be considered in the event of an increase in charges.

A public representative from Hobart in Australia told me that as a result of the privatisation of Hobart airport, for which people felt they had overpaid, landing charges were automatically increased. As Hobart airport is in private hands, it is a private monopoly and only Quantas flies into Hobert - at least that was the position up to six months ago - as it has a constitutional obligation to do so. The other airlines flying into that airport pulled out following the increase in landing charges. Can members imagine the impact of privatisation of our airports on our tourism industry, which is second only to agriculture in that it provides £2.5 billion to £3 billion to the Exchequer and 152,000 people are employed in it? We must look to the future. Given that we are an island nation, we must consider the impact on this economy if there was a major fall-off in the number of tourists travelling here. I agree with the Deputy that this is a matter we should consider if we were to examine the replacement of a public monopoly with a private monopoly. I outlined previously my view on the privatisation of Aer Rianta.

With regard to landing charges, they are related to competition. The number of tourists visiting this country, particularly Dublin, is welcome and good for our economy. Dublin is regarded in Europe as a confident, modern and vibrant European city, as is Cork, which is doing exceptionally well. We are delighted those cities are regarded as such. Those two cities are vibrant because of the low landing charges that have been operating in the airports in those cities. Dublin is doing remarkably well, and long may it continue to do so, partly as a result of the marketing of this country by way of advertising flights to different Irish cities on the back page of British weekend newspapers. Ministers are happy that tourists, irrespective of whether they travel here from an economic viewpoint or to enjoy a weekend, are deciding to travel here as they are contributing to the Exchequer, which is good for all of us. The charges that apply to gaining entry to a country are related to competition, but currently the airlines are in competition with each other.

On another point, Aer Lingus has decided to deviate from the low cost air fare and concentrate on the upper market. That is a policy change on its part in the past year. It will now cater for the upper end of the market. It recently began flying to Los Angeles, which is a tremendous area, and it hopes to open up routes to two other areas in the United States in a short period of time. Aer Lingus is catering for the high spend visitor, which is what we want, but we must not forget that there is room for the low cost carrier as well. We should ensure that the low cost carriers are welcome here also. Many of them operate out of London. As Deputy Allen mentioned earlier, Ryanair has opened up routes to eight new European destinations in the past year. That may explain the swiggle in the market here because if other destinations are available, people may take them up.

With regard to the development of hotels, incentives should be offered in certain regions for developing hotels. It should not be in the form of grant aid because any funding would be gobbled up and a trickle can become a flood over a short period of time, but perhaps our colleague, the Minister for Finance, could introduce some scheme that would be helpful to upgrade one, two and three star hotels. We did that with regard to the seaside resorts scheme. There are different opinions on that scheme but in my opinion it was wrongly focused because we had a proliferation of self-catering establishments and that adversely affected many areas. For example, 800 self-catering units have been built in Youghal and 400 have been built in Kilkee in County Clare. That does not necessarily benefit the small shopkeeper, the pubs or whatever in those areas. We want people to spend money in hotels. There has been a proliferation in the self-catering area but the question of the one, two and three star hotels should be addressed in the budget. Rather than give grant aid, some tax incentive should be provided to see if we can stimulate this area because there are other areas in every county which could benefit from the upgrading of hotels, including the smaller hotels.

The German market has been fairly stagnant. The point was raised about spending millions of pounds when an economy is not doing well. There is logic in that. The people in Germany did not have the spending power because of unification and so on and there is a question as to whether we should be spending money there. We should for two reasons. First, if we break with a tradition it is difficult to get it back. Second, the German markets should be more focused. People fly in here from Dusseldorf, Berlin, Milan, Paris, Rome and so on. Dublin is a popular city and people tend to fly into Dublin on short breaks. Short holidays to Dublin and Cork are very popular now but nonetheless our marketing should be focused on other areas of the German market because people in Berlin, Dusseldorf and other major cities throughout Europe do not want to come to Dublin only. Ireland could become the antidote to all the congestion and stress experienced in the major cities in Europe. We should focus on specific areas of the German market so as to attract people here for a restful holiday, as the Germans have enjoyed in the past.

Chairman

We have spent a considerable amount of time on that and I propose to move on to subhead C - sport and recreation services. It is now 12.45 p.m. and we are proposing to conclude at 1.30 p.m. If the Minister intends to make a presentation on this subhead I ask him to be fairly brief because the committee members want to ask a number of questions.

Dr. McDaid

What time are we due to finish?

Chairman

We are due to finish at 1.20 p.m.

Dr. McDaid

If the Deputies are agreeable we can take this specific area as read. We have already discussed a lot of this subhead and perhaps they want to ask some questions.

Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Allen

It is very difficult to get the full facts on the national stadium from the Minister during Question Time. I have a series of questions which I will read and perhaps the Minister might address them. Were funds allocated for the national stadium in the Estimates? Where do they appear in the Estimates or in the capital allocations? Has the Cabinet made a decision on funds to be allocated to the stadium and what is the amount involved? Will the Minister also outline to the committee whether all the advice he got from his Department is in favour of the national stadium? Has his Department carried out a cost analysis of the project and what is the total of that cost analysis?

Last week in the Dáil the Minister said that £500 million would be a cheap cost for building the national stadium - the original cost was £280 million. Can I take it from the Minister that his Estimate at this stage is £500 million? Why has PricewaterhouseCoopers been engaged to carry out another feasibility study on the national stadium? What was wrong with the first one? Last week the Minister told the Dáil that there was no need for "any further quangos" to investigate the national stadium when I asked that a moratorium be put on the project so that this committee could investigate it. I resent the Minister calling this committee a quango when at the same time PricewaterhouseCoopers are carrying out another feasibility study.

What will be the cost of the contract for executive services for the national stadium and what has been the cost so far? Will the Minister explain the reason the stadium never appeared in either his party's manifesto or in the programme for Government——

Ms Coughlan

The Deputy can join the party. We will take the Deputy.

Dr. McDaid

I can spend all day talking about the Fianna Fáil manifesto.

Chairman

Deputy Allen has a number of questions to put to the Minister and he is entitled to do that. In fairness, every member will get an opportunity to do the same.

Mr. Allen

It was not in the programme for Government or in the mid-term review of the programme for Government. Will the Minister explain the reason it was not in the mid-term review of the programme for Government even though the project was announced at that time? Why is it not in his section of the review since it is a major sports project? Is that an indication that the Department is not really dealing with the project? It was not his idea, the Department is lukewarm about the project and did not wish for it to be included in his section of the mid-term review.

Until recently the Minister claimed that the stadium was the Taoiseach's project - I can quote from the Official Report - and the Minister was happy for him to drive it. Why are all parliamentary questions on the matter, therefore, being referred to the Minister? Is it the case that success is something that belongs to the Department of the Taoiseach and possible failure is a matter for the other Ministers?

I want the Minister to clarify once and for all if his Department is in charge of the project and, if so, why has he only one representative on the board whereas the Taoiseach's office has several representatives? Why has the trust for the stadium not been established? The Minister told the Dáil five months ago it was about to be appointed. What is the delay? Why were none of the national stadium jobs advertised and is there a possibility that somebody like Denis Riordan will challenge the appointments? Is it correct that the people appointed got promotions and large salary increases to move over to the national stadium project? Is there a relationship between the chairman of the national stadium feasibility committee and Mr. McManus? Will the Minister confirm that pro rata assistance will be made available for Eircom park from public funds in the same way as it was made available for Croke Park? Will the Minister confirm that a decision has been taken in principle that the aquatic centre in a national stadium will not be ready for the Special Olympics? Its availability for the Special Olympics was a central reason for its development and now that it is unlikely to be ready, will this part of the plan be scrapped?

Have any further sweeteners been offered to the FAI in an attempt to get it to abandon its project? Why is the Government so desperate to get the FAI to abandon its project, even going as far as to wage a dirty war against the association through attempts to undermine some of the people at the top of the organisation? Is it the case that the national stadium will be the Abbotstown albatross without the FAI? Has anybody from the Department been in contact with South Dublin County Council about the FAI's planning application?

Dr. McDaid

The answer to the Deputy's final question is "no". There have been absolutely no sweeteners for the FAI. I have made my views clear with regard to the FAI. I would prefer if the association was on board but, as there are over 70 other organisations which the country must look after, a national stadium is required as we enter the new millennium. It will be a development that people can view with pride long into the future. Ireland has a national museum, a national gallery and other facilities. Every other country has a national stadium and Ireland deserves such a stadium.

The FAI is aware of my views on this matter and I continue to co-operate with the association. My last meeting with the FAI took place yesterday evening with regard to continuing to provide sporting infrastructure for League of Ireland clubs. We discussed this matter yesterday and I will support League of Ireland clubs in the forthcoming allocation of national lottery funds. There have been no desperate attempts to interfere with the association in any way. In my opinion, if the national league, the FAI and the Government worked together, we would be able to provide a proper national infrastructure much quicker than under the current plans.

However, the FAI has decided to go its own way and that is its right. My argument is that the attendances at League of Ireland football matches have been exceptionally low over recent years. The solution to this is to get families back to supporting matches on Saturdays and Sundays and mid-week. This will only happen if there is a proper national infrastructure. The national football league final replay, which was played in Clones in Monaghan, attracted a crowd of 25,000 spectators. The FAI cup final, which involved two of the top clubs in the country and which was played in the centre of Dublin, attracted 6,000 spectators.

Mr. Allen

Surely that is an argument against having a national stadium and in favour of developing the national infrastructure?

Dr. McDaid

We should concentrate on our national infrastructure. The Government will continue to do its best to support the FAI. Approximately £1.25 million was allocated last year to Shelbourne, Bohemians, Finn Harps, Sligo Rovers and Kilkenny City and to Buckley Park and the Munster FA at Turner's Cross. This will continue this year, and I hope to include a further six League of Ireland clubs in 2000. However, we could do much more if we worked together.

The national stadium is being driven by a development committee set up under the chairmanship of Paddy Teahon, who was previously in the Department of the Taoiseach. In my opinion, if one wants something done, it is best to involve the Department of the Taoiseach. I have no problem in that regard.

Mr. Allen

Why does the Minister have to answer questions on it in the Dáil?

Dr. McDaid

I answer questions on it in co-operation with the Department of the Taoiseach. The Taoiseach has also answered questions on it. We have been at one on this issue at all times. My Department is also fully behind the development of the national stadium.

It may not have been included in the programme for Government, but the building of a national stadium was promised in the Fianna Fáil manifesto. I bring this to the Deputy's attention because I recall that the building of a national stadium was promised way in advance of any other announcements by any other organisation. The price of the national stadium has remained at £281 million. This cost was estimated in a comprehensive feasibility study carried out by experts in this field.

There are a number of other stadia in Australia, Cardiff in Wales, Wimbledon and France. I looked at seven different stadia and spoke to the people involved. The cost of building those stadia was in the region of £150 million to £300 million each. The stadium in Paris was the most expensive at £280 million. Our stadium works out at approximately £281 million, according to current prices. However, with escalating construction costs, which are estimated to be increasing by approximately 15% a year, undoubtedly there will be added costs.

A second feasibility study was necessary because we wanted to see if the aquatic centre could be built first because of the 2003 Special Olympics. I do not have the results of that feasibility study yet, but the hope is that it will be possible to hold the aquatic section of the Special Olympics in the new national stadium. However, if that is not possible, plan B will be put in place immediately after the study from PriceWaterhouseCoopers is received.

Mr. S. Ryan

Will the Minister elaborate on the point about the second report?

Dr. McDaid

As the 2003 Special Olympics are being held in Ireland, there is a need for a special aquatic centre. When the £281 million plan for a national stadium was brought forward, it did not include an aquatic centre. However, representatives of swimming suggested that the inclusion of the Special Olympics aquatic centre in the national stadium should be considered. We asked PriceWaterhouseCoopers to examine the feasibility of that proposal.

Mr. Allen

Did the swimming associations do that?

Dr. McDaid

No, the Government.

Mr. Allen

Who requested its inclusion?

Dr. McDaid

We were asked by the Special Olympics to consider the possibility of including it. The Government asked PriceWaterhouseCoopers to carry out a second feasibility study on this aspect.

Mr. S. Ryan

Only on that aspect?

Dr. McDaid

Yes. It has not yet reported but depending on its report, it is hoped to hold the swimming sections of the Special Olympics in the national stadium in 2003. We will have to assess potential planning objections and other matters and if we feel there is any possibility that the centre will not be available for the Special Olympics, we will have to consider another option.

Mr. Allen

Has the Minister examined the other implications for the national stadium in Abbotstown? Has he considered the fact that roads will cost £23 million? A proposed rail station will cost £2 million while the relocation of the Veterinary Research Laboratory and the Marine Institute will cost £90 million, according to a reply from the Minister for Finance to a parliamentary question I tabled. The estimated cost of conversion for athletics in Wembley was £80 million. Cost escalations between 1999 and 2003 could amount to another £100 million. Given that a trust is involved, what are the VAT implications? I believe VAT costs could total £80 million. Is the marketing cost a total of £2.5 million or will it be an annual cost? Aside from cost over-run, the sum involved now stands at over £0.75 billion. On top of the £751 million, an additional sum of £281 million is involved, which totals over £1 billion. Has the Department examined the infrastructural implications of the project? Will the Minister confirm or deny the figures?

Dr. McDaid

One match in this year's European cup final competition was worth over £2 billion to UEFA.

Mr. Allen

To UEFA, not to Dublin, nor to the city where the match was held.

Dr. McDaid

How are we to know what will be the status of sport in the future? The matter of costs - Deputy Allen outlined a number of factors - is entirely a matter for the development group. There will be escalating construction costs, but the matters referred to by the Deputy are circumlocutory. They deal with decentralisation and other aspects.

Mr. Allen

It will be taxpayers' money.

Dr. McDaid

The Government deals with the spending of taxpayers' money every day. Is the Deputy saying that we should do nothing about providing a sporting infrastructure?

Mr. Allen

I am calling for a moratorium until the so-called quango examines the matter.

Dr. McDaid

I consider the sum of £300 million is cheap for the country to have a national sports stadium where all sporting organisations can participate. Even if the cost was to increase to £500 million, it is, given the sporting nature of the country, a reasonable amount to pay for a national stadium about which the nation, for generations to come, can be proud. I have talked to a number of people, such as Ronnie Delany who won an Olympic medal in Melbourne in 1956. He told me that he went back to Melbourne and found that the stadium where he won his medal is still there, 44 years later. We are building something for the future.

Mr. Allen

I do not understand the relevance of this.

Dr. McDaid

It would be far better to have co-operation on all these issues. The people in Abbotstown will be continuously involved in the planning process. Of course they must agree to the development, which will be to the betterment of their area.

A large proportion of funding provided for under the national development plan will be allocated to that area of north County Dublin. A national stadium will require an extension of the DART network and an ancillary transport system. All that is provided for in the national development plan. The national stadium will bring benefits to the people of Abbotstown and the surrounding area which they had not envisaged. I wish I had the opportunity to build it in County Donegal because it would proceed without any objections.

I never referred to the committee as a quango. I said it would be superfluous to establish another inquiry. The committee already established is very high powered, as is evident from the CVs of those involved and the work done on considering what is available elsewhere in the world. No member of this committee could have that expertise.

Mr. S. Ryan

I have no difficulty with the objective of having a national stadium in the context of all the national sporting organisations - be it the IRFU, the FAI or the GAA - coming together. However, the GAA has decided not to go down this road. Has the Minister any indication about the GAA's intentions to provide a running track at its own facilities? They may complement the facilities planned for at the national stadium.

I am in favour of the development of Eircom Park. Notwithstanding the efforts by some individuals in politics and in football to split the FAI, its objective is laudable. While Eircom Park may not be the Government's preferred option, as Minister with responsibility for sports, the Minister should back it. He should tell the organisers, administrators and the thousands of volunteers involved in soccer throughout the country who aspire to having their own stadium that the Government fully supports their efforts.

It is clear from the Estimates that the GAA is getting a substantial contribution to the development of its facilities. The Minister should tell the FAI that it too will be in receipt of a major contribution from the Government. The Government has indicated that provision is made in the Estimates. However, there will be overruns with the development of Eircom Park, as will be the case with the development of the national stadium. Grant aid should be provided.

If the cost of the national stadium project moves towards £750 million or £1 billion, which has been estimated, and if the GAA and the FAI are not involved, there is a risk that it could become a white elephant. The public would like to hear more from the Minister on the proposed contribution of £50 million by J. P. McManus. Many people have reservations about it. Have any commitments been made in response?

Given that the Government's original objective was to have a national stadium with everybody involved, there is a view - I will not put it any stronger than that - that obstacles are being put in the way of the Eircom Park development. There is a perception that planning objections raised by the Department of Defence have involved the Taoiseach's office and the Minister's Department in putting undue obstacles in the way of the development. I would not like that to happen, I would deplore it. I want a commitment from the Minister that that will not occur.

The other aspect of this is that an indoor training facility at Santry stadium is being provided for in the Estimates. How is that proceeding? I was aware that there were suggestions at local level that a cycling track might be provided in the context of that facility. Is that still contained in the proposal and will it go ahead?

On the allocation in the Estimates for swimming pool projects, when is the closing date for applications for new projects? Are applications lodged with the Department? I am aware that the new swimming pool project in Skerries for the north-east Fingal area is at an advanced stage of planning with Fingal County Council and I ask that it be given serious consideration in the context of this year's funding.

On subhead C2, grants for the provision of major sports facilities, there does not seem to be an allocation in that regard in the 2000 Estimates. Perhaps I have misread the briefing material. Will the Minister explain the situation? Was it included in another allocation?

Dr. McDaid

It has been amalgamated.

Mr. S. Ryan

Those are my views on the Estimates.

Mr. M. Brennan

I welcome the plans for a national stadium and developments such as Croke Park which provide large sports facilities. I thank the Minister for the money allocated last year to the showgrounds in Sligo. I hope Sligo GAA will get a substantial amount of money this year. This year for the first time in 25 years Sligo beat Mayo and the team is much improved. The facilities in Sligo for last Sunday's game were second to none and I hope the Minister will provide funding this year.

I thank Deputy Allen for allocating money to small GAA parks when he was Minister.

Mr. S. Ryan

It helped him get re-elected.

Mr. M. Brennan

It did and it certainly helped Deputies Gerry Reynolds and Perry get elected. I do not attend soccer matches regularly, but on a number of occasions I have attended matches at the showgrounds in Sligo. Sligo Rovers is erecting an new stand at present from money given by the Minister last year. It will be a credit to the club and I hope it will help bring the crowds back to the showgrounds because it is not pleasant to watch a match from a windy stand on a cold Saturday evening or Sunday in winter. I hope that this year the Minister will give a great deal of money to small projects to develop sports grounds.

To return to the subject of air travel, there are a number of regional airports.

Chairman

We dealt with that under earlier subheads and the Minister replied on a number of issues.

Mr. M. Brennan

The Department should subsidise flights to the BMW area of which Sligo is a part. There are regional airports at Knock, Sligo and Carrickfinn. I cannot understand why flights to the west cannot land at the three airports, particularly Sligo and Carrickfinn, in succession. I spoke previously to the Minister about this. That would help to bring a considerable number of people from Shannon or Dublin to the west. If flights from different parts from Europe landed at the three airports in succession, it would bring a considerable number of people into the west and north-west.

Dr. McDaid

I will deal with the latter points first. I still maintain that if there are attractions in an area, people will want to visit it. One cannot provide subsidies anymore because the EU Commission regards them as State aids.

Deputy Brennan asked that we continue to provide funding for small projects. Of course we will continue to provide such funding. There may be a perception that we are not continuing to fund small projects and, therefore, the best way to make that clear is to give an example. If there is a small project which will cost £10,000, I intend to provide a grant of £10,000 and get it finished. If a project costs £100,000, I expect the local club or organisation to provide at least £20,000 or £30,000 of the funding from its own resources. There are 1,600 or 1,700 such applications. Many applications state that the project will cost £200,000, for example, and the club or association is looking for £200,000 because the Minister will be aware that it is a poor club. Such applications go into the bin immediately because no effort is being made by the local community and, therefore, I will not provide funding. Those who help themselves will be helped. The size of the project is not the issue. I ask members to tell the committees of local clubs that if they are looking for £500,000 or £1 million, they must be able to provide at least 50% of it themselves. In such a case I keep asking where they will get the remaining £500,000 because in this day and age no developer will believe that the Government will provide the whole amount. A developer will ask from where the rest of the money will come and he will not do the work until the club provides the money.

Since the national lottery began in 1988, £79.8 million has been given out by various Governments to different organisations throughout the country, between £30 million and £40 million of which has not been drawn down. About 50% of the funding provided by different Governments, with the good intentions of public representatives, has not been spent. Consequently it is easy to promise funding but it is difficult to meet the criteria to spend the money. That is why I would prefer to allocate larger sums, but the projects must commence.

Projects for which allocations were made last July or August must begin before 31 August 2000. If they have not started by then, those grants will be lost to the project and there is nothing I can do about it. Such grants are not returned to the Minister in order that he may reallocate them, they return to the Department of Finance.

I have been criticised for not providing enough money for Sligo over the years. Deputy Allen provided money for Sligo when he was Minister.

Mr. M. Brennan

I did not criticise the Minister.

Dr. McDaid

I accept that. The population of Sligo is the 19th largest in Ireland but to date it has received the ninth largest allocation of national lottery funds. Therefore, Sligo has not done too badly.

The closing date for applications for swimming pool projects is 31 July 2000.

Mr. S. Ryan

Will they be made through the local authorities?

Dr. McDaid

Yes. If they have not been informed yet, they will be informed. They must send in their applications. As the Deputy will be aware, two or three weeks ago I reintroduced different criteria in the swimming pool section. One used be able to get a 100% grant for the refurbishment of a swimming pool and 80% grant for a new swimming pool. In the latter case, the local community or local authority had to provide 20%. I have found that most local authorities were opting to refurbish swimming pools which were totally dilapidated rather than opting to build a new pool. What I have done is made available 80% for each and I have increased the amount of grant aid available from £2 million to £3 million.

Mr. M. Brennan

Is there a closing date?

Dr. McDaid

The closing date is 31 July.

Mr. S. Ryan

Have many applications been received?

Dr. McDaid

Yes, quite a number have been received. I communicated with the local authorities on this matter recently and informed them that there is no pecking order in respect of this matter. It will depend on whether the local authority, the county manager or whoever is responsible works in conjunction with my Department in order to expedite matters. Therefore, projects may move from low positions on the order list to quite prominent positions. For example, the projects for Sligo and Roscommon were approved yesterday.

Up to £3 million is now available for the refurbishment of pools. I am very interested in the concept of public-private partnerships in this regard because these have been shown to work. Projects involving such partnerships have been successful in Arklow, County Wicklow, and Renmore, County Galway, and in other areas. Local authorities have many duties to carry out and I do not believe they can run these pools, which generally operate at a loss. Private sector interests have informed me that in view of the availability of a £3 million grant they can make massive facilities available to communities which would include not only swimming pools, saunas, steam baths etc. but also keep fit centres, leisure centres, etc. As a result, these interests will be able to claw back their investment and eventually make a profit, having taken into consideration the contracts they would be obliged to sign with local authorities.

Exchequer money will be invested in such public-private partnership projects and we must ensure that people living in local authority areas and their families are given special treatment in respect of the fees they are obliged to pay for using such facilities. For example, I understand that it only costs £350 per year for families in Arklow to obtain membership of the swimming pool built under the public-private partnership arrangement. I would prefer local authorities to cease their involvement with operating swimming pools and for us to move into the area of public-private partnerships.

Facilities have already been built under these arrangements and they have been very successful. At Waterford Crystal, for example, the private pool has been transformed into a public pool under a public-private partnership which worked in the opposite direction. Public-private partnerships can work and I advise local authorities to pursue them. In that context, I have already been approached about the Skerries project. Swimming is the second most popular form of recreation after walking and people as young as seven and as old as 75 are involved in swimming.

Chairman

It is now 1.25 p.m. and if Members have particular questions on this subhead they should put them briefly because we have a further two subheads with which we must deal.

Dr. McDaid

I intend to proceed with the Morton Stadium. I have already received the feasibility study, which is extremely positive. The stadium is an excellent facility and I understand that the people of north Dublin collected money in the 1960s in order to save Santry Stadium. I assure the Deputy that we intend to put a very good indoor facility in place there. There are no plans in respect of a cycling track but I imagine this could be added later.

Mr. S. Ryan

It has not been included in the initial plans.

Dr. McDaid

That is correct. However, I am very positive about the development of the Morton Stadium.

With regard to comments about obstacles being placed in the path of the development of Eircom Park, nothing could be further from the truth. I have referred to this matter on a number of occasions. Baldonnel Aerodrome is about to be developed and the Department of Defence and the Air Corps have a number of reservations about the construction of a stadium in the area. There have been ongoing negotiations between the FAI and the Department of Defence and no obstacles have been placed in the way of the development. If the Air Corps did not voice its concerns about the development of Eircom Park, particularly in view of the erection of floodlights at the site, there would be a huge uproar at a later stage if anything untoward happened.

No obstacles have been placed in the way of the development. I have no information about the ongoing discussions between the FAI and the Department of Defence. The two will have to try to overcome their difficulties together. I have given my support to the development of Eircom Park. However, I have also maintained that I would prefer if the FAI was on board with the Government in this regard because together we could expedite the development of a national stadium. I mentioned the possibility of holding a European cup final here.

Eircom Park will only be able to accommodate 40,000 people. I attended a testimonial match recently which was packed out. That shows the interest in soccer among people in this country. A number of spectacular matches have been played today in Euro 2000 and if any of the countries involved were to visit Ireland to play, the stadium hosting the match would be packed. On many occasions, even when the Republic of Ireland is playing against teams of a lower standard, Lansdowne Road is invariably filled.

I am confident that the good times the team enjoyed under Jack Charlton will return. In such circumstances, crowds of 50,000, 60,000 or 70,000 will want to watch matches in which it is involved. The FAI may proceed with Eircom Park but I foresee a day when it will also be obliged to use Stadium Ireland because of the demand for tickets to matches. Therefore, it would be much better if it abandoned its plans to develop Eircom Park and came on board with the national stadium project. I accept that the FAI wants an emotional home and, good luck to it, let it build its emotional home. In my opinion, however, in so doing it will place a heavy ball and chain around its neck.

I met representatives of the FAI and the League of Ireland clubs. The infrastructure which obtains vis-à-vis those clubs is quite dilapidated at present. However, the £1.2 million in funding we provided last year has allowed improvements to commence. I intend to provide a similar amount during the current year. The clubs and the FAI are also funding the development of their own stadia. By working together, however, I estimate that we could expedite improvements to all League of Ireland grounds in a much shorter period. We should concentrate on providing a national infrastructure which would involve everyone throughout the country. If we do not, I will be obliged to continue on my current path. As I have stated on many occasions, the FAI is entitled to proceed with the development of Eircom Park but I would prefer if they came on board with us.

As regards the GAA, I am not aware of current plans it has in respect of athletics. However, there might be developments in this area at a later date.

Mr. S. Ryan

What is the position regarding the provision of grants for the development of Eircom Park.

Dr. McDaid

The Taoiseach stated in the Dáil that pro rata grants would be paid to the FAI. The Taoiseach stands over any commitments he has made. The FAI has made no application for grants to assist in the development of Eircom Park. The association has made a virtue out of the fact that it does not require such grants. The FAI took a different route to that taken by the GAA by attracting corporate sponsorship. The GAA, while it did attract some corporate sponsorship, used Government and national lottery funding for the redevelopment of Croke Park. The FAI, which used the McCormack organisation to raise corporate sponsorship, has stated that it has ample funding available to it. It mentioned at a number of meetings with the Taoiseach and me that it might ask for Government funding when it builds its centre of excellence or training facility. We will be open to that when that happens.

Mr. S. Ryan

What about Mr. McManus?

Dr. McDaid

That report has been laid before the Oireachtas Library. I have spoken to J. P McManus about this and he said there is nothing involved and it is a gift to the nation, with three conditions, that the stadium should have no sponsor's name, it should be accessible to all sports and it must be state-of-the-art. J. P McManus has made it clear the donation is a gift to this nation, which he freely admits has been very good to him.

Mr. Allen

I asked the Minister several questions earlier and seven are outstanding to which I would like an answer. I know it was difficult for the Minister. I will not delay the committee but I will forward a copy of the questions, which are on the record, to the Minister. Where is the allocation for the national stadium in the Estimates?

Dr. McDaid

There is an initial £10 million for the development company in the Taoiseach's Estimate and the further Estimate for the national stadium is not necessary yet.

Mr. Allen

Perhaps the Minister will answer my other questions.

Dr. McDaid

What were they?

Mr. Allen

The contract for executive services.

Dr. McDaid

I do not have that information off-hand.

Mr. Allen

Representation on the board and the advertising of the jobs.

Chairman

We have two more subheads to deal with.

Mr. Allen

I have another question. The Minister will not answer questions on certain matters in the Dáil, including the drug testing programme which he says is a matter for the Sports Council. My questions related to policy and it is difficult when one does not get answers in the Dáil. I raised with John Treacy when he came before the committee the issue of protecting organisations who pass judgment on an athlete who has tested positive in a drugs test . We had the recent incident with the IABA where, according to press reports, it was extremely nervous about taking sanctions against an athlete because of the threat of legal action, as it could be hung out to dry financially. Is the Minister satisfied with the present situation? If he is not, does he propose to change the terms of the drug testing programme in order to protect organisations which have expressed their concern to me, as they must also have done to the Minister. Does the Minister intend to carry out a review of the drug testing programme in the light of the IABA incident? Has he a full report on that incident and will he provide a statement on it?

Chairman

A vote is taking place in the Dáil. Do members wish to return to discuss the other subheads? We will have to continue it today.

Dr. McDaid

If we agree the Estimates, I will return to the committee to answer other questions, including the major issue raised by Deputy Allen.

Chairman

That is helpful. We will agree the Estimate and the Minister will return to the committee to answer members' questions. I thank the Minister for coming here and the members for their co-operation.

Dr. McDaid

I thank the committee.