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SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Jun 2010

Annual Output Statement 2010

I welcome the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and his officials, Mr. Dan Commane, finance officer, Ms Noeleen Diskin and Ms Doreen Keaney.

The purpose of today's meeting is to consider the Revised Estimates and output statement for the Department of Transport: Vote 32.

Members will be aware that as part of the budgetary process reform initiated by the Minister for Finance in his budget speech of 2006, each Department must publish an output statement for consideration by Oireachtas committees. In line with that reformed budgetary process an output statement has been provided and has been circulated along with the briefing to the members. This is intended to facilitate better parliamentary involvement in the budget and Estimates processes. In addition, the Minister for Finance requested that the Estimates debates should have a particular focus on the outputs to achieve the moneys being voted.

The committee has again been asked to undertake a similar critical and co-ordinating role in respect of this round of 2010 annual output statements. If this committee has any constructive criticisms regarding the quality and nature of the documents and how they might be improved, I ask that they be articulated so that they can be brought to the Minister's attention.

The clerk has circulated a draft timetable for consideration. I should add that we have to be out of this room by 11.15 a.m. If we are to adhere to the agenda I would appreciate members' agreement or, if there is an alternative way of doing it, perhaps we could agree it first.

There should be no problem with the time limit. There is an issue, however, in that we received the Minister's document today and in the interest of transparency and accountability, it is very difficult to assimilate everything that is in the statement in the time available. I am unhappy with that. Nevertheless I will do my best to ask the proper questions but we should have had the documentation long before now if we are to be involved in the process.

I am happy with the timeframe, and we should get on with it.

We will stick rigidly to the timescale and I will cut people off——

Let me be very clear, I have a number of questions to which I do not know the answers, but I will insist on getting the answers here today. I will be asking questions rather than making speeches, if that is helpful.

Does the Deputy wish to discard the proposed ten minutes for each section, and allow a free for all?

I am easy on that point.

We need to agree the procedure in advance. It would be in the interest of efficiency. I am in the hands of members and I do not mind how we go about the process. Let us agree on a method.

It might be advantageous after a few general remarks if we have questions across the board.

We will dispense with the proposed discussion on subheads and we will have a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will start with the opening statement from the Minister, the Fine Gael and Labour Party spokespersons and at 10.05 a.m. or a little later, we will proceed to a question and answer session. I call on the Minister to make his opening remarks..

I am not sure what timescale we are working to because I do not have a copy of the programme. It would be useful if I could have a copy of the timetable. I am not sure about Deputy O'Dowd's point. My understanding is that the information note was given some time ago to the committee, so I am not sure what the Deputy is saying he has not received.

The statement that was issued this morning.

The Minister's speech.

My speech is not circulated before I make it. Do the Deputies want to put me at a total disadvantage? Openness, transparency and accountability are all very well, but one can take it too far.

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for allowing me the opportunity to present the Revised Estimates. The gross expenditure provision for my Department in 2010 is €2.758 billion, that is €2.081 billion for capital projects and €677 million for current spending. The provision is €338 million less than last year's outturn which reflects the very difficult economic circumstances in which this year's Estimates were framed.

As part of the very necessary reductions agreed by the Government, we implemented some of the recommendations in the report of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes, an bord snip nua as it was called. We had a €21 million reduction in current expenditure and a €317 million reduction in the capital provision.

My Department will spend €2.081 billion on the following projects: €1.4 billion on national, regional and local roads improvements; €23 million on smarter travel; €615 million on the public transport investment programme; €13 million on maritime transport and safety; €10 million on cross-Border initiatives; and €3 million on regional airports.

The €615 million provided this year for investment in public transport will continue the transformation of our public transport system and build on the achievements of recent years. We established the National Transport Authority, NTA, on 1 December 2009. There is now a new structure to subhead C2 from 2010 onwards. Spending will be in the following three areas. First, public transport projects are managed by my Department and include funding for integrated ticketing, accessibility projects, traffic management outside the greater Dublin area and technical assistance for Transport 21. The provision this year is €59.188 million.

The second area is public transport safety and development and we have allocated €206 million to cover the railway safety programme and bus and rail projects outside the greater Dublin area, such as the western rail corridor and new rolling stock for intercity rail services.

The third area is public transport infrastructure. That provides €349.8 million in capital funding for the National Transport Authority and includes funding for projects in the GDA such as all the Luas and metro projects, bus and rail projects and for traffic management measures. As member will know this is the first year that funding for public transport in the greater Dublin area is being distributed through the NTA which has responsibility for delivering an integrated public transport system in Dublin. Obviously the NTA must work closely with the RPA and the CIE companies who will deliver key projects on their behalf. I note the good co-operation between all these organisations.

Since I addressed the committee on the 2009 Estimates, the Luas extension from Connolly Station to docklands was completed on 8 December 2009. The Kildare rail project was completed in December 2009. Phase 1 of the western rail corridor from Ennis to Athenry was officially opened on 29 March 2010. Significant funds have and will continue to be spent on railway safety works, on accessibility projects, on the Dublin city centre resignalling project and on bus priority measures in Dublin and the regional cities, and we have continued work on a large number of other projects at various stages of progress. During the coming year, the Luas extension from Sandyford to Cherrywood will open as will the Clonsilla-Dunboyne railway line. Next year the Citywest Luas extension is scheduled to be completed with services operating by May 2011.

In relation to the two priority public transport projects, metro north and DART underground, which are also funded through the NTA, I can also report substantial progress has been made. The oral hearing before An Bord Pleanála on the railway order application for metro north concluded in March this year. Following my meeting with the European Investment Bank it approved up to €500 million for this project. In relation to the DART underground, planning is progressing and the latest advice from Irish Rail is that it anticipates it will lodge a railway order application with An Bord Pleanála on 30 June.

Investment in bus priority will continue with the NTA providing funds for projects in Dublin and my Department funding projects in the regional cities. We are providing €14 million for the accessibility programme which will fund improved accessibility of railway stations, continue the programme to make bus stops in Dublin more accessible and also fund the rollout of accessible coach services on the Navan-Dublin, airport-DCU and the Cork-Waterford bus routes. The integrated ticketing system is progressing and there is a provision of €19.5 million this year. The integrated ticketing scheme is at an advanced stage and is undergoing rigorous testing to ensure it operates fully and effectively and it remains on target to be rolled-out on a progressive basis this year. That will mean real change for passengers.

The 2010 capital allocation for national roads is €1.114 billion. While this is a reduction on the 2009 figure it will allow the NRA to maintain the impetus necessary to complete the major interurban routes, the M50 upgrade, three service areas and the M3 this year.

I am delighted to say that, as we meet, three of the five major interurban routes and the M3, from Clonee to beyond Kells, are completed. The remaining projects, the M7 to Limerick, the M9 to Waterford, the M50 upgrade project and the three service areas are on target to be completed before the end of this year.

The priority for the national roads investment programme, after 2010, will be the Atlantic road corridor. Procurement is under way on three PPP projects N17-N18, Gort-Tuam, N11 and the Enniscorthy-New Ross bypasses. Procurement will also start shortly for the M20 Cork-Limerick southern section. There are other, smaller schemes ongoing. The only other item concerning national roads is that we are preparing a review of the investment needs of national roads in accordance with the renewed programme for Government. That should be completed by the end of the year. The capital investment in regional roads is €300 million. There are major difficulties facing local authorities in the year ahead, particularly in the aftermath of the severe weather in late 2009 and early 2010. Local authorities indicated to my Department that the total cost of reinstatement of the roads damaged as a result would be approximately €180 million. We made this money available to local authorities and granted them discretion. We gave them more than that amount to include the extra de-icing and salting they had to do. The figure was €240 million. Many local authorities are reporting good progress in this respect and some will require the same flexibility during the course of the next year.

The major aviation policy objective is to promote regular, safe, cost-effective and competitive air services. The three State airports are a key aspect of the implementation of this policy objective. Regional airports have also made a contribution to access to transport at local and regional levels. Members are well aware of the difficulties faced by airports and the aviation sector generally. A provision of €3 million was made in 2010 to fund urgently required work at Knock and Donegal airports and a further €1.2 million will be provided in respect of expenditure at City of Derry Airport. We are conducting a value for money review of regional airports. This is due to be completed shortly and it will inform our views.

With regard to State airports, the primary objective was to address the capacity shortcomings at the three airports. The major capital investment at Cork Airport in recent years resulted in the provision of an entirely new airport terminal to cater for passenger growth. The DAA made significant investments in Shannon Airport in 2009 for the construction of a preclearance facility, which is working well. With the opening of terminal 2 later this year, the DAA will have resolved the capacity shortcomings at Dublin Airport. In addition to the new terminal, there is an extension to terminal 1, the construction of two new piers, D and E. At the end of this year Dublin Airport passenger handling capability will have caught up in terms of addressing the capacity situation that was severely out of balance with passenger needs. There has been a major fall-off in passenger numbers but the facilities exist for greatly increased numbers.

The maritime transport capital Estimate amounts to €4.1 million and provides for payment in respect of remedial work carried out at regional harbours. The Department has been funding essential works for the past five years. The resources available for expenditure on regional harbours have been concentrated on essential remedial works pending the transfer of the harbours to local control.

The smarter travel document was published in February. The total cost of smarter travel is estimated to be €4.5 billion, on top of the Transport 21 investment. Smarter travel activities to date include the establishment of the national sustainable travel office, guidelines for sustainable residential development in urban areas and public consultation on the draft new cycle design manual. Transformation of bus services, supported by improved park-and-ride facilities, has commenced and guidance was issued on provision for cyclists in the design of the quality bus network. A tax saver scheme for cyclists was introduced and Ireland's first national cycle policy framework was published. A carbon tax was introduced in the December 2009 budget and work commenced on the drafting of a national walking policy, following the establishment——

The Minister has five minutes left of his 15 minutes.

I am trying to skip through it as quickly as I can. On the current expenditure side, €677 million will be spent on the following projects. Some €289 million will be spent on public transport public service provision payments and €59 million will be spent on a grant to the NRA in respect of road maintenance, which amounts to €44 million, and administrative expenses, amounting to €15 million. Some €112 million will be spent on maintenance of regional and local roads and €51 million will be spent on PPP operational payments. Some €39 million will be spent on maritime transport and safety, including the maintenance of the helicopter marine emergency services and the Irish Coast Guard stations. Some €29 million will be spent on the Road Safety Authority, while €17 million will fund regional airports and €36 million will be spent on the Department's administrative budget.

The CIE subvention comes from current spending. Since 1997 we have paid over €3 billion for the provision of public service obligation services. This year, CIE has been allocated €276 million. CIE faces a severe financial position, with a deficit of €77.5 million in 2009. Clearly, this is not sustainable. It is important this matter is addressed and it is important to change the modal share of public transport to ensure we are organised for the upturn when it comes.

Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann are seeking to avoid undue impact on services and are continuing to provide a comprehensive range of services. In the context of falling passenger numbers, constraints on Exchequer subvention and no increase in fares since December 2008, the only option open to the company is cost reduction through efficiencies and service adjustments. There has been a move in that direction over the past 12 to 18 months. The company is trying to address its deficiencies.

We provided €11 million for the rural transport programme. Some 36 rural community transport groups around the country are being funded and a total of 157,000 rural transport programme services were operated in 2009, with 1.3 million passenger journeys recorded on those services. The corresponding figures for 2008 were 156,000 transport services and 1.2 million passenger journeys.

We continue to provide the €2 million funding for the green schools travel programme. The Department provided in excess of €33 million under subhead B3 for the Road Safety Authority and the Medical Bureau of Road Safety in the 2010 Estimates. We know the fantastic work the Road Safety Authority is doing in conjunction with other State agencies. This has seen a drop in road deaths of almost 42% in the past ten years. As of 2009, we are ranked the sixth safest country in the EU.

The funding provision for the Irish Coast Guard and maritime administration amounts to just over €52 million, covering the Coast Guard, the maritime safety policy division, the marine survey office, the mercantile marine office, the marine radio affairs unit, maritime transport and the marine casualty investigation board. The Coast Guard has responsibility for Ireland's marine search and rescue functions and for marine pollution and salvage response. It is also responsible for inland search and rescue. The provision for this year's Vote, more than €38 million, reflects the increase in operations and expertise. The maintenance of a helicopter marine emergency service at Dublin, Waterford, Shannon and Sligo airports is estimated to cost €28 million in 2010. The helicopter service has been tasked 143 times between January and April this year.

We had to take difficult decisions necessary to tackle the unprecedented decline in the public finances. That required a number of reductions in public expenditure. We tried to protect front-line services, sustain employment and support the productive capacity of the economy. Notwithstanding the difficulties, we will spend just over €2 billion on transport capital investment this year. This shows a continuing commitment to improving our transport system and our determination to deliver on the projects contained in Transport 21. We have also sought to sustain expenditure on public service obligations and meet our regulatory obligations and safety imperatives. We have the balance right. I commend the Estimates to the committee and I am happy to take questions from members.

Before I call on Deputy O'Dowd, I ask Deputy Michael Kennedy to take the Chair for some 15 or 20 minutes. Deputy O'Dowd has 15 minutes.

Deputy Michael Kennedy took the Chair.

This is a very important process and I would have liked a longer debate than the one we will have. However, one cannot blame anybody for that. It is as a result of the pressure on the Houses of the Oireachtas.

I will ask the Minister about a number of key issues of concern to me in his departmental expenditure for 2010. One relates to a contract which is about to be signed by the Department for the search and rescue helicopter service, costing €500 million over the next ten years. I believe the Air Corps wishes to be involved in the supply of this service to the nation but the Department, in a draft memo to Government, states that it does not have any aspiration to do so. In an attempt to get to the bottom of this matter I was offered and accepted a private meeting with officials from the Department of Transport. However, I remain deeply concerned that, if the Air Corps has the aspiration and capacity to deliver this service, it ought to be fully investigated in view of the very significant amount of money to be spent. I have not spoken to the Air Corps because my efforts to do so have been frustrated by the Department of Defence. When we requested that the Air Corps be allowed to come before the committee to tell us if it had the aspiration to provide this service, we were told it would be unable to do so. The committee was to convene for the sole purpose of asking operational questions and was nothing to do with political decision-making. I ask the Minister to give us absolute clarity on this issue before the contract is signed.

My second question relates to a letter the Minister for Transport wrote to the Minister for Finance this year. Following the flooding and adverse weather conditions in the early part of this year, the Minister asked the Minister for Finance for an extra €25 million for the road network, which is crumbling up and down the country. There is not a main road, byroad, regional road or road in any town that is not riven with potholes. Our regional and local roads are in a very serious condition and I am also very concerned about the quality of the pavement on some of our national primary routes. Money needs to be spent urgently. Has the Minister failed to get the €25 million which he said he needed to do a basic job on the roads in question?

Why is the Limerick motorway, the M7, disappearing into a bog? I understand it is a year behind schedule and that there are serious issues with the contract and in finding a solution to the construction problems which have arisen. Consultants from the United Kingdom have become involved to see if a technical solution can be found. The answer may be for the burden to fall on the contractor but the contractor may be in severe financial difficulties and the fact that the road has not been built is having a serious adverse impact on our economy.

I note from a reply to a parliamentary question, which I received yesterday, that there are significant issues over corporate governance at many ports. The Department stated it would tie up any capital funding until there was satisfactory compliance with the code of practice by harbour authorities. I believe Shannon Foynes is not included in the ports referred to and I believe it to be totally compliant in this regard. Is there a veto on funds and, if so, has it been used? What impact has it had?

I welcome the Minister and his officials. It is incongruous that we are discussing the Estimates for 2010 on 2 June. It is one of the processes of this Oireachtas which is most ridiculous. We should be discussing the Estimates for 2011 as we know those for 2010. One of the key reforms we could make to the Dáil would be to give Opposition Deputies an opportunity to have an input into Estimates as they approach. The Minister for Transport is preparing Estimates for September which will show significant cutbacks on the figures before us for 2010. However, we have no chance to discuss those Estimates. This process is ridiculous and makes a farce of the Parliament.

I thank the Secretary General and staff of the Department for preparing the output statement. The big weakness, however, is the fact that many of the 2010 output targets are empty. There are gaps in the area of public transport and in roads after 2011. Although the Minister can take credit for some of the things that have been achieved, such as the inter-urban routes, we still do not have any indication of what the Minister will be doing after 2010 ends.

I will turn to the costs of the Department, which employs just over 500 staff. As we set up various additional agencies, such as the National Transport Authority, is it intended the Department itself will be slimmed down? We are about to set up another quango, the sustainable travel office. I am in favour of sustainable travel but why can it not be a basic objective of the Department? The Green Party has put in a shameful performance in the past couple of years in allowing investment in public transport to be devastated by major cutbacks in Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. We have the ludicrous situation in which, while we are trying to engage in a modal shift, the Green Party has the cheek to be members of a Government which slashes the number of buses in Dublin Bus by 90, under the cover of greater efficiency. There are no proposals for replacing lost buses but the Green Party remains in government, while the overall budget continues to be cut.

A characteristic of the Department of Transport budget of 2008 and 2009 is the fact that public transport investment is only 30% as a proportion of overall investment and it is falling. That is the record of the Green Party in government — it has achieved nothing. We welcome the first leg of the western rail corridor but the Rosslare-Waterford line is being closed down. We hear nothing from the Green Party about leaving Government and forcing a general election. It is unbelievable hypocrisy.

The problem about these Estimates is that they tell us nothing. We can look through and see what is happening with metro north. We can see that it is in the planning process but we do not know what the expenditure will be, going forward. All we know is that in this Estimate there is nearly €500 million included under PPPs or, rather, there is a jump of 540% under PPPs for roads. We have not got a clue.

On the issue of the interconnector, we had an incredible performance by the Minister only a few weeks ago in that he told us he did not know what Irish Rail was doing. Irish Rail went ahead and announced a three-year delay to the interconnector but the Minister did not seem to have a clue about it. On the major projects, including metro west and the Luas link-up, the Minister is telling us nothing.

While I welcome the inter-urban roads, what about the further development of the M3 and the N2, the Derry road. I have been struck by the Estimates in regard to the A5, the road to Derry, our second city in the northern part of our country. In this regard, we are involved in some process with the Northern equivalent of the NRA that will take up to 2015. Why can we not develop the N2, the Derry road, as a priority? The same applies to the M11.

My discussions with the NRA show that the cupboard is becoming bare in that the national programme is drifting to a halt. That is happening in regard to the Department generally but particularly with regard to public transport. Where the latter is concerned, the Department and the Minister have run out of steam.

With regard to the regional and local roads, which my colleague referred to, it is appalling that, this year, when local roads around the country, including in Galway, Kerry, Clare, Meath and every part of the midlands, are in need of funds, the Minister has slashed the budget by one third. He cut one third off the budget for local roads over two years ago. The Minister is talking about saving 50 lives by building the inter-urban roads, yet he has cut the NRA's and local authorities' budget for local roads.

I welcomed what the Minister said about smarter travel. We had a big struggle to get the Minister to keep the local transport budget.

With regard to taxis, to which the Minister made no reference whatsoever, we had endless discussions at this committee. There are still grave problems in the taxi sector, yet the Minister has not a word to say about it.

I welcome the fact that the Secretary General states in the output statement that the two competitive airlines policy is that of the Department. It is certainly that of the Labour Party and I am glad to see it in the national output statement.

I welcome the revival of routes from Shannon Airport by Aer Lingus and Aer Arann, thus helping the airport. What is happening with regard to the three airports? The Minister has been sitting on this for over three years and nobody has a clue as to what he intends to do. Does he intend to bring back Aer Rianta, as many believe should occur, or will he give Shannon and Cork airports the kinds of resources they need if they are to have real independence?

The Minister was at a public road safety event yesterday. Over the past couple of months, the road safety agenda seems to have been slipping. There have been some appalling tragedies and deaths. We will be discussing this tomorrow afternoon when discussing the Road Traffic Bill. It is notable that the Minister cut the budget in the 2010 Estimates and that the Road Safety Authority has had difficulty in getting funding to make the kinds of communications needed.

The Minister referred in the Estimates or output statement to a maritime registration Bill. It is the first I have heard of it and I would like the Minister to revert to me on it.

These Estimates are disappointing. They are eaten bread. We should be talking about what we will do in 2011. It is incredible that the Green Party would stay in government if it were remotely serious about transport. The kinds of ideas the Labour Party talked about years ago——

The Deputy had a chance to be in government.

We did not want to serve under the people the Green Party is serving under. That is the problem.

What about Fine Gael?

(Interruptions).

My ambition always has been and continues to be to have a Labour-led Government.

The Deputy will be waiting a long time.

That is your view.

Deputies should make their remarks through the Chair.

I want to wrap up. The Green Party made a big deal about public transport for about two decades. However, during its time in office we have had some of the worst cuts of recent times.

The Deputy is economically illiterate.

The Deputy is — that is for definite. The Green Party stood over appalling cutbacks in public transport, which is reprehensible.

I am disappointed with these Estimates and the output statement, and particularly with the absence for plans beyond 2010. The Government is running out of steam and the sooner its term is over and there is a new Minister for Transport, the better it will be for transport.

We talked about the funding of road safety in the past and have had a good result in regard to road safety. As Deputy Broughan said, we may talk about the funding of road transport tomorrow.

As a Deputy representing the Dunshaughlin area, I do not want to be a dog in a manger but must make a point to the Minister, as one Meath man to another. I and my colleagues from north County Dublin have a serious issue associated with the filling used for houses. Last night I was at a meeting on the disintegration of ten additional houses. I refer to another estate in Dunboyne. On Monday, an estate in Ashbourne was identified as having serious problems.

For the two years during which I have been a Deputy, I have always been informed that the same material used in the building of these houses was used for the building of the M3. Mr. Fred Barry was at this committee a couple of weeks ago. He beat around the bush in every way he could but eventually acknowledged that material used in embankments was never checked. He admitted that it was most likely that some of the material could have been used in the main structure of the road, from the toll station to the Clonee exit. We asked that the committee be given a guarantee that the builders' insurance would cover it and got a result: "We can confirm that EuroLink Motorway Operations (M3) Limited carries out unlimited all-risk insurance. The insurer declined to comment further on claims related to pyrite or any other cause."

The Minister knows Friday is a great day for our county. When I was campaigning for election, one of my main slogans was, "Support the M3". All I am asking the Minister, whom we know is the boss of the NRA, is that he instruct the authority to carry out tests on the stretch of road and the embankments between the toll roads outside Dunshaughlin and Clonee. Before he finishes paying the builders of the M3, he should give a guarantee to the Irish people.

Mr. Fred Barry acknowledged what I allege regarding the embankments and the exits. People believe the embankments are the areas to the left and right of the road but they comprise the exits. Some of the most renowned contractors in County Meath withdrew in writing their services for the building of the M3 because the material they were using was not fit for purpose.

A letter was sent to everybody in 2007 stating that no material with pyrite in it should be used in the building of anything, including roads. Nobody has listened. Mr. Fred Barry said that if the road lifts two inches, nobody will see it. This is the most despicable statement that could be made by a chief executive of any company. It is a road safety issue. The NRA knows that the material from the quarries in south County Meath and north County Dublin was used in the building of the M3.

I know how proud the Minister and I are of the M3. I have sent a letter stating I cannot attend the opening of the M3 on Friday because I have seen what has happened house after house in Ashbourne, Dunboyne, Kilmessan, where the houses are being rebuilt, and Enfield in the Minister's constituency. I have contacted some of the Minister's party colleagues to ask them to witness what is happening. Pyrite was used in the building of the M3. It will cost only €1,500 to insist that tests be carried out on the embankments and the main stretch of road between the new toll station outside Dunshaughlin and Clonee before the final payment is made to the NRA, which will in turn pay the construction company. The PR man for the NRA says he will jump if the Minister says so.

I also want clarification of the insurance policy. Pyrite was not mentioned in the builders' insurance. HomeBond Insurance is not in a position to fix these people's houses because there is no insurance policy. When we leave this House, I do not want to be in a situation where we know that what was done was wrong. People are starting to realise what is happening in north County Dublin, County Meath and County Kildare with pyrite. I intend to bring all parties on board with me. Deputy Broughan knows about this and other Deputies have witnessed at first hand the destruction this has caused for families.

I cannot accept that the NRA, which was informed in 2007 that the material should not be used, let it be used up to three weeks ago. The statements from Mr. Fred Barry lead me to believe he should consider his position. He snubbed this room with his answers and gave no clarification on insurance. As one Meath man to another, I say to the Minister to have tests carried out on that stretch of road. I know what he will find. Some of Meath's best business people withdrew their services from the M3 because of the rubbish that was being used to build it.

In 2007, to huge fanfare, €62 million was announced for the Ballaghaderreen bypass in my area. The Minister was in the constituency three weeks ago and announced the bypass would go ahead. I cannot see it mentioned in the Estimates here and I would like to be sure it is included.

There are motorways to Cork, Rosslare, Limerick, Galway, Derry and Belfast but a whole section of the west and north west does not have any motorway. The Charlestown bypass was built as a single carriageway. The Minister speaks about safety but a single carriageway is not good enough these days, it is dangerous. There is a double white line down the middle of the road, meaning cars cannot pass; that is not a safe road. On numerous occasions I have said that if it the Ballaghaderreen bypass goes ahead, it cannot be a single lane carriageway. I have written to the NRA on numerous occasions and in all of its replies, it states that it is still proposed to be a single carriageway. That is simply not good enough. From Dublin/Drumagh to Rooskey for the price of a single carriageway there is a two plus two section of road, which has been a reasonable success, although some people complain about it. It is a compromise that allows people to pass other vehicles.

I ask the Minister to put pressure on the NRA because it does not respond to reasoning from anyone else. A two plus two would be more acceptable than a single carriage way, although we would all prefer a motorway or a dual carriageway.

The Minister mentioned that he hoped to have news about metro north. Can he estimate the timeframe for the project, given the local importance for the north of the city and county, and Dublin Airport?

Some low-cost developments that could help could go ahead now. I was talking to Iarnród Éireann and the extension of DART electrification on the northern suburban route, from its point of view, is less expensive than other projects. Integrated ticketing has been a long time coming and it might help to address some of the disappointment and upset I share with Deputy Broughan over the fall-off in passenger numbers. A loss of €77.5 million was mentioned in the Dáil and in the committee today. Is there a strategy in place to bring people back to public transport who feel it is inconvenient or unsuitable for them? Integrated ticketing forms part of that, as do real-time timetables. Iarnród Éireann does it well but is there any chance that there might be that extra encouragement to use public transport? Hopefully we will then be able to reverse the cutbacks.

The way Deputy Broughan was talking, I could be forgiven for thinking the Minister is a member of the Green Party. I ask him to tell us if there is a strategy in place to get more people back on to public transport so we can reverse those losses and see solvency once more in the CIE group.

On metro north, would the Minister explain in greater detail the enabling works that will start later this year or early next year? What progress has there been on extending the DART to Balbriggan and Drogheda? There is a great need for park and ride facilities all round the greater Dublin area, be that Kildare, Meath or Dublin north. If there were such facilities for people to take public transport into the city, it would make a difference.

I welcome the Minister's statement and the positive aspects in the Estimates. The opening of the M7/M8 only last weekend is of tremendous benefit to those who use that road. Can the Minister give some clarification on the M7 south of Nenagh, where there appears to be an engineering issue? We must recognise that if this happened under the previous system, the State would carry the cost so this proves the decision to place the burden on the contractor was correct.

I welcome the continued roll out of the motorway from Limerick to Galway and the money provided in the Estimates to further that work, along with the opening of the Limerick tunnel later this year. These funds in the Estimates will considerably enhance the infrastructure in the west and mid-west. These figures are at odds with what others suggest, that money is not spent outside greater Dublin or beyond the east coast. It is a commitment by this Government to have a continued upgrade of infrastructure.

I notice the spend on regional airports is in the region of €3 million. There is a bigger issue than just spending on smaller, regional airports, there must be a more cohesive policy for the three main airports. The fragmentation to support airports from Donegal to Waterford destabilises the ability of the three main airports to act as key entry points to the State. I urge the Minister to give serious consideration to the outcome of the review and to support the three airports in a manner that ensures they draw the greatest number of passengers to ensure their future viability.

I very much welcome the fact that the rural transport initiative was funded again in the Estimates. I hope this will be continued, along with the green schools initiative. The rural transport initiative assists towards protecting the most vulnerable who reside in isolated rural areas. With regard to the schools programme, we should begin a process as soon as possible to encourage young people to adopt a more green approach to sustainable transportation.

I thank the Deputies for their points and will try to address them as quickly as I can.

Deputy O'Dowd asked about the helicopter search and rescue service and the contract that is about to be signed in regard to it. He chose his words very carefully in that he said the Air Corps has an aspiration to run the service. As he said, it ran the service until 2003. It came to a grinding halt for a variety of reasons within the Air Corps and externally. People along the coast are asking not whether the Air Corps aspired to run it but whether it had the capacity to do so. They would want to know the level of service it could provide when the current contract runs out in 2013. The answer is that it would not be capable of providing the service in 2013. Considerable change, training and investment would be required for the Air Corps before it would be in a position to put the service in place at the level we are talking about. It would not be able to provide it before 2015 according to my information. Deputy O'Dowd will appreciate that we are talking about lives in danger at sea. With such uncertainty, it is an academic exercise to wonder whether the Air Corps aspired to provide the service. It does not have the capacity and would not have it for four or five years, at least.

The contract is lucrative and it is appropriate that the Deputy scrutinised it as carefully as possible. It amounts to €0.5 billion over a ten-year period. If we were to try to provide the service through the Air Corps, the cost would be in excess of €800 million. The option we have chosen is the proper one and the one in respect of which I can guarantee continuity of service. It is the most economical option.

The Deputy asked about the €25 million and the letter to the Minister for Finance. If I recollect correctly, the Minister wrote to me asking me for an estimate of the cost of the damage to the national routes. I told him it was €25 million and that if he wanted to provide that, I would be delighted to take it. I did not write to him looking for the money specifically. I recollect that I wrote explaining the cost – I will correct the record if I am wrong – and we asked the NRA to find the money within its own budget.

I do not agree with the Deputy's assessment that every road in the country is riven with potholes because it is just not true. There are some very serious issues associated with potholes, particularly on local and regional roads, but we will try to deal with them within the budgets and constraints that exist.

On the point raised by Deputies O'Dowd and Dooley on the N7, technical difficulties have arisen on a section thereof. The finishing date has been delayed because the difficulties are fairly serious. When I say "technical", I do not mean to be dismissive of the difficulties.

What is actually happening is that it is disappearing into a bog.

It is not disappearing because it is not built yet.

The foundations are unstable.

The road is to run through a bog. As Deputy Dooley said, this is the responsibility of the contractor. A few years ago, the Government, amid much criticism, quite wisely changed the method of contracting for such projects such that more risk would be taken on by the contractor. This is a matter that must be resolved by the contractor. The most up-to-date information I have is that a technical solution has been found or is being finalised, and the problem should be overcome. If there is further information I can obtain for the Deputy, I will obtain it.

I responded to the question on governance at the ports yesterday. Where breaches of corporate governance and laxity in respect thereof in the ports are discovered by the Department and they are not dealt with, the Department can impose sanctions. We have not had to use this approach yet because, where we have highlighted laxities in corporate governance at various ports and asked that they be rectified, the ports complied with our directions in all cases.

With regard to the points raised by Deputy Broughan, the Deputy has a marvellous capacity to ignore all sorts of economic realities and the fact that budgets have been cut right across Departments. We have taken from €10 billion to €12 billion out of the system. Deputy Broughan being the Labour Party's spokesperson on transport does not make the Department of Transport immune from the cuts. All Departments have had to make serious cuts to try to get the budget in line.

The Deputy referred to many points in the output statement in 2009 and stated there seem to be many gaps, as he referred to them, in the output statement for 2010. The gaps exist in the 2010 output statement because the output was achieved in 2009, allowing us to move on to other things.

With regard to the NTA and the accusation that I am setting up extra bodies, the NTA actually subsumed a number of bodies. The number of separate bodies will be reduced through the ongoing discussions in regard to the NRA and RPA. We are reducing the number of bodies, not increasing them.

What about the sustainable transport office?

The sustainable transport office is a section of the Department and not a separate agency. We made a deliberate decision to use staff from within the Department. The more serious question from a budgetary point of view on the NTA, or other agencies being set us, is whether their being set up will mean the Department will be slimmed down. It does mean so in that it will be severely slimmed down. Last year, the reduction in staff through natural wastage, retirements and transfers to other agencies was in the region of 70.

The Deputy and I will probably never agree on the fact that I do not believe the key to an efficient, effective or attractive public transport system is related to the number of buses that can be put on the street. The key remains the number of people on the buses. This is related to Deputy Sargent's point. Having a fast, efficient public transport system where passengers know the routes and when the buses will arrive, and having real-time information and integrated ticketing, will attract people back to buses. It is not a case of putting more buses on the street for the sake of having them there. The Deloitte report is one portion of the strategy in this regard. Nobody has disagreed seriously with the approach of Deloitte, to be adopted in conjunction with the provision of real-time passenger information and the integrated ticketing service, which are currently being rolled out.

The real point is that there is a direct route, but if one is a senior citizen or has small kids and lives in Finglas or Clonshaugh, one must walk 500 m or the guts of a kilometre. An issue arises as to whether some of what is being proposed is being used as a cover to give a lesser service, given that there was already a service in place. That is the problem.

Dublin Bus made it very clear that what it presented is and will be an improved service. It will result in a doubling of routes with a frequency of ten minutes or less. Buses will arrive more frequently. Some 60% of customers, rather than 23%, will be carried on the high-frequency routes. Others will have a much faster and better service than they had heretofore. There will be an increased number of opportunities to interchange with the DART and the heavy and light rail services, thus reducing the layover times of the buses in the city centre. This means more existing buses can be put on routes as opposed to having to buy more buses.

It is true there will be a small number of areas where people may have to travel up to 150 m or 200 m farther. This will very much be in the minority of cases. I agree with the Deputy's point that we should try to ensure we do not proceed solely on an area basis, taking into account passenger numbers alone. I have asked that Dublin Bus not just draw a line on a map where there is a long-established area with many senior citizens and forget about the circumstances of the customer. Bus Átha Cliath has undertaken to do that.

I met a deputation of Deputies regarding the Waterford-Rosslare route. I asked people to come back to me so I can convey to CIE an economic justification for keeping a line open where the cost per passenger is €80,000 per annum on top of the subvention. I do not believe the Deputy believes in his heart this represents a good use of taxpayers' money. On average, 25 passengers use the service in each direction each day, costing almost €2 million in total per year. This is not a good use of taxpayers' money. Locals said they could attract freight and passengers. If they can do so and present a business case that reduces the cost, I will certainly ask CIE to consider it.

Has the Minister the report that was drawn up in south Wexford approximately three or four years ago?

Deputy Frank Fahey resumed the Chair.

I was presented with that report but it does not change the fact that the cost is €80,000 per passenger.

It advocates things that were never done by Irish Rail.

They were done.

Quite clearly, they were not.

There was a change to the timetable two or three years ago and it was heavily advertised on local radio. It did not make one whit of a difference. If all the people who are now concerned about the rail line had used it in recent years, we would not be having this discussion.

With regard to metro north, the figure for this year in the Estimates is between €25 million and €30 million. That enables the planning process to continue and will also enable some of the advance works the Acting Chairman, Deputy Kennedy, asked me about. I will have to circulate the details. I refer to some of the pre-works at the Mater and the airport. I may not be able to give a specific address. There were some property purchases involved also.

We need to know that also. This is going to continue throughout the Christmas period into 2011. We are talking about the 2011 budget also.

That will be included in our Estimates for 2011.

The question posed to me by Deputy O'Dowd in the House on the DART interconnector was whether I knew that CIE had changed the priority in regard thereto and that it is now delayed. I did not know that because CIE did not change the priority. I made a point on the day in question that there was no change of Government policy on this matter. As the Deputies now know, the delay has arisen because of an estimate of how long it will take to get through the planning process based on the metro north experience and the fact that there has been a change from four bores to two to reduce the environmental impact.

With regard to Deputy Broughan's point on the N11 and the roads programme running out of steam, the N11 is part of the next PPP system. I have no direct information on taxis. I have responsibility for policy in this matter while the Taxi Regulator runs the affairs. It is responsible for funding from its own resources. That is why it is not in the Estimates.

The Deputy may not recall my referring to the maritime registration Bill but I mentioned it to him in the context of the current discussion on the Merchant Shipping Bill. I said some of the issues he wanted to include in the latter Bill could be included in the former. The maritime registration Bill will be the next one on maritime affairs.

I have not been sitting on the issue of the three airports for the past three years, as Deputy Broughan suggested. What I did was respond to the request of the three chairmen of the three airports, namely, to postpone any break-up of the three airports until the effects of the current difficulties in the aviation industry are seen. We are due to make a decision in this regard in 2011.

A number of Deputies referred to the road safety agenda. The Exchequer funding to the RSA has been reduced but that was on the basis that the authority would be allowed to increase the amounts of money it raised itself. It is generating its own funds through driving tests and commercial vehicle testing and was allowed to increase charges to make up for any shortfall.

Road safety continues to be a good news story. We had a very bad month in May by comparison with the earlier months of the year. We have had six months in a row when the number of deaths on the roads showed a reduction on the same time last year. That is a welcome trend and one I hope to see continuing.

Deputy Feighan raised the question of the Ballaghadereen bypass. It is expected some clearance works will start for that route at the back end of the year, as I stated at Ballaghadereen. A review is taking place in respect of all the outstanding roads for the purpose of prioritising expenditure into the future. Roads are not built on the basis that people in Knocktopher and elsewhere have a motorway but on the basis of what is appropriate from a safety point of view and from a traffic count point of view. The review will decide whether a single carriageway, a two plus one road, or a dual carriageway, is appropriate. I leave that to the technical people who are involved in making those decisions. That is the basis on which the decision will be made not on the basis that because other areas have one, we should have one.

A two plus two road is safer than a single carriageway. A single carriageway is not——

A motorway is safer than a dual carriageway but one does not build a motorway——

I did not ask about a motorway, I asked about a two plus two road which is not much more expensive than a single carriageway.

As I have said to the Deputy, whatever is appropriate for the traffic count will be decided. Deputy McEntee raised the question on the M3 and the use of pyrite in its construction. The Deputy raised this issue some time ago. Mr. Fred Barry met the committee and dealt with the issues at that time. This is a matter directly between the NRA and the contractor. As part of the PPP contract, the contractor will carry any loss in the event of damage. Some pyrite may have been used, I do not know, that is a contractual matter. The contract is fairly direct and simple. The contractor has a duty and an obligation to build the road to the best possible standards and to maintain it to those standards. At the end of the contract period the contractor must hand it back fit for purpose with bonds, insurance and so on in place. If the contract has inadvertently or otherwise used material that is faulty and proves to be faulty, in line with the Government's contract, the contractor or its insurance company will carry the consequences.

We want the insurance policy to be clear, given that a problem arose with houses. If the insurance policy is here the contractors will not relate to this committee the full details of the policy. We need that. In his statement, Mr. Fred Barry said material was used from these quarries. I have it here in writing. It is not good enough for someone to say, in the event of something going wrong in ten, 15 or 20 years' time, that it was the fault of the builders. We all know where some of the builders are today through no fault of their own; they are gone. I ask the Minister once again to have this road tested on behalf of the Irish taxpayer, regardless of the consequences for Mr. Barry and the NRA. At the end of the day the Minister is responsible. I ask the Minister to have that road checked. That is all I am asking. If the Minister does not wish to do it, then our children and his children will end up in the same situation as the people in the houses. Maybe some day I will take the Minister to see what is happening in his and my constituencies.

The Deputy need not take me there at all, I am well aware of the pyrite problem. I have visited a number of the homes and——

I am glad to hear that.

——I am well aware of it.

The Minister has not said anything about it. He has been very quiet on the matter.

I tend to get on with my business and try to help people. I do not trumpet what I might or might not do. It is much more effective if one tries to solve the problem rather than shouting about it.

But the Minister is not solving it. That is the point.

When the Minister has finished I will allow Deputy O'Dowd. There is a time constraint.

Different people have different ways of doing things. I am not saying whether my way is right.

I will allow the Deputy to speak when the Minister has finished.

We are not going to stick our heads in the sand.

The Minister without interruption. When he has finished Deputy O'Dowd has the floor.

In regard to the timescale for metro north, the target completion date is 2016. As with all of these projects, a number of factors can influence that completion date, the major one is usually the decision on the railway order, how fast we get it, and the outcome of the PPP procurement process. I am informed that An Bord Pleanála expects to make a decision on this issue, which was raised by Deputies Sargent and Kennedy, in August. PPP negotiations can only be concluded following the railway order decision. When the PPP contract is concluded the construction timetable will be available.

Deputy Dooley and others raised park and ride facilities. There has been a very poor response from local authorities to the park and ride facilities. If I recall correctly the city and county managers appeared before the committee. I do not know why it is taking so long to get off the ground. Currently a couple of local authorities and Bus Éireann are talking about possible park and ride facilities. Wicklow and Meath are two of the cases in point and I am aware of a third that may be provided by the private sector.

Is there an interest in such a facility.

What is the cost?

It is based on the proposals. Up to 2005, funding was made available to fund design studies and, where possible, infrastructure done by local authorities and public transport operators, particularly in respect of public transport interchanges around Dublin. From 2006, that was subsumed into a fund for the provision of park and ride sites to facilitate modal interchange from road to rail and so on. Funding is available in the NTA as part of the traffic management budget. If somebody brings forward a proposal that is deemed good value for money, one will get a positive response. I am aware that Galway County Council has made a number of attempts. South Dublin County Council made what I considered a good proposal in respect of a park and ride facility that would have led to a significant modal shift and it was, inexplicably in my view, refused by An Bord Pleanála. That is part of the difficulty.

May I raise two issues? The local authority mangers should again be invited to appear before the committee because they gave a clear indication that they were actively promoting park and ride facilities in Wicklow, Kildare, Meath and north Dublin. There is a good deal of land that will not be built on in the foreseeable future. Given that in the city many developers have opened unofficial carparks, on which I understand Dublin City Council is placing enforcement notices, there is no reason we cannot have temporary car parks in, say, north Dublin, Meath and Kildare with the aid of some funding. If one puts hard core on the surface of a field, it will enable people to park their cars and use public transport.

A number of points were raised on airports. Deputy Dooley made the point of having a more cohesive approach to supporting the three State airports and questioned whether it is viable to support eight regional airports through public service obligations, PSOs. That is a question that the value for money audit will be addressing. Starting at the top, there are airports in Derry, Donegal, Sligo, Knock, Galway, Shannon, Kerry, Cork and Waterford. The only county in the west that does not have a regional airport is Leitrim. It is reasonable to ask whether we can continue to sustain them. There will be questions asked in the review of the PSO at European level because the rules are specific and will be tightened. The justification for a PSO for a regional airport is based on the length of time it takes to get to the capital city or to the nearest city. That will be dealt with in the value for money audit.

We announced grants of €14 million to areas outside the greater Dublin area. Some €44 million in the National Transport Authority's budget, is under the heading of traffic management and can include funding for park and ride.

That is €44 million for 2010.

Could that be used for what would be regarded as a temporary measure until local area plans were adopted formally?

I would not say that temporary solutions would be favoured. We would prefer more permanent ones, although when work starts on metro north we will be trying to shift as many people as possible from cars to public transport. In the circumstances we might be prepared to look at temporary car parks.

Lissenhall, north of Swords, is an ideal location.

Deputy O'Dowd is waiting to come in and following that I will allow Deputy Kennedy back in.

I would like to respond to the Minister's comments on the issues raised. We both agree on a number of issues. The contract for the helicopters will cost €500 million over the next ten years and it is right and proper, as the Minister states, that we analyse in full this expenditure and consider whether we could get better value for money by doing it in a different way. My attempts to get at those questions have been frustrated by the Department of Defence which refused to allow the Air Corps to come before the committee to answer questions specifically on its capacity. We agree the Air Corps does not have the capacity right now to perform this service but the Minister says it does not have an aspiration to do so. The Air Corps performs——

I did not say that the Air Corps might not have the aspiration, but I said it does not have the capacity.

——and aspiration.

I will produce the Minister's document, which I am reading from.

I am saying what I am saying here.

I am repeating what the Minister said in this document, which is that the Air Corps does not have the aspiration to perform the service. That is the key point I want to get at. I cannot ask the Air Corps a political question but I can request it, together with the Department of Defence, to come before the committee and ask them, first, if they have the aspiration to run this service, second, the experience of running a search and rescue service, third, if they have the helicopters, and do they save lives. The answers to all these questions is "Yes". The point I want to make is that this contract is about to be signed by the Minister for Transport and we are not able to get the answers to those questions.

The Minister's earlier reply is very significant. He said that if the Air Corps did it, it would cost €300 million more. Let us see the facts, because the Department of Transport is refusing to tell me how much money it would save if it bought new or second-hand helicopters which it is buying now. Are there other ways it can do this? This issue is being rushed at the last minute. If the Minister is saying that the Air Corps does not have the aspiration to do this job, I would like to have the opportunity to ask it to clarify that issue.

Where does the Minister get the figure of €800 million? If one is leasing helicopters that are five years old by the time they come into service, is €800 million predicated on the purchase of five year old helicopters by the Air Corps? If there are upwards of 130 people employed in the provision of this service, whoever does the actual job, would it not make sense if a significant number were Air Corps personnel, whom we are employing already? They already have the experience.

In regard to the letter requesting €25 million, this letter was requesting money for national, regional and local roads. It is also an issue for the National Roads Authority as it cannot sustain or maintain the existing road network. It is a requirement that the money is spent on roads that are riveted and have potholes. Where I am driving there are potholes and danger everywhere.

I understand that a 250 m section of the M7 at Limerick does not have a secure foundation and it is going into the bog. I accept that it was a design and build project, but did the National Roads Authority or departmental staff have a view on the proposed construction at that time. Did they advise that was not the way to go? If they so did, why do we have this appalling mess? Will the Minister state if the Department or the National Roads Authority advised against the construction of that portion of motorway which is disappearing and keeps disappearing into a bog?

I do not know what the Deputy is trying to do. When one does a design and build project, the design and build is done by a contractor who assesses the risks involved and gives a price. One does not second guess it, that is why it is a design and build process. One transfers the risk. We would not be advising because the minute a Department starts advising on the details of a design, it assumes the liability for anything that goes wrong.

That is a different question. The question I am asking the Minister is whether they advised that this was not the way to go. They did not.

Why would they?

I believe they did.

When the Department said "We want a road", the NRA said "We want a road, design build, off you go and come in with your proposals and the most economically effective one is chosen". They did not go out and check and double check, and second guess the design or the route.

They did not analyse it.

They do not have to analyse it.

That is the reason we are in the mess we are in.

No, it is not. The Deputy should not try to pin this on to a Department or the Minister. It is a design build contract, the responsibility and the risk is taken by the contractor.

If we go in and say to them "Do not build it there, build it over here" and the road starts sinking, then the Department and the taxpayer gets landed with the responsibility. The Deputy should not be ridiculous.

Did the Department or the NRA have a view on it?

With due respect, Deputy O'Dowd, the Minister has answered the question.

In relation to the other points raised, I think I have dealt in reasonable detail with the issue of search and rescue. This contract has to be signed. I am telling the Deputy now that it will be signed. I do not want him to be under any illusion. It is not a last minute rush. This is ongoing for two years. Nobody told the Department of Defence or the Air Corps that they could not tender for the contact, but nobody told them that they could, if they wanted to. It is up to the Department of Defence to answer policy decisions on the armed forces. It is not up to individual branches of the armed forces to respond. This is well-established and one does not want the Department of Defence becoming involved in political rows. That should not happen.

Regarding the figure of approximately €800 million, some €250 million has been spent on the purchase of aircraft and €10 million or €12 million on spares and tools to maintain the availability of the fleet. Private operators in this business might get a reduction on these once-off purchases. Running costs are approximately €10 million each for the five or six aircraft. Six are probably needed because one needs spares at all times in case one did not operate. Each base requires six captains, three co-pilots and nine rear crew, many of whom must be qualified paramedics or advanced paramedics. An estimated ground crew of 16 is also needed and all of this costs approximately €15 million per year. The total staffing amounts to 143, with four bases, 34 people and seven people for the management of operations. Personnel training costs are estimated at €75 million prior to service and €16 million per year during operations.

Under the contract the Minister is about to sign, the aircraft are leased and are gone at the end of that period. The Minister is proposing purchasing the aircraft for the Air Corps so that we will own them. The current helicopters are 45 years old so we will have them for the next two or three decades if we wish. This is a much better deal because we will own the helicopters rather than leasing them.

I welcome Deputy Sargent becoming a member of this committee. We have missed the contribution of the Green Party since Deputy Cuffe left. He made a positive contribution and it is my intention to invite him back to discuss sustainable transport.

I appreciate that and I thank the Chairman for the welcome. I thank the Minister for the support given to local initiatives and community groups, such as Skerries Community Association and the Skerries cycling initiative, through Fingal County Council. The grant made available will be well used and provide good value for taxpayers' money. There will be much voluntary work involved in this.

The Minister referred to the interconnector, which is part of the overall package of the DART development and Iarnród Eireann's plans. Deputy Kennedy mentioned that the extension of the northern suburban line is much easier than it used to be, according to the engineers, because the equipment has become much easier to move around. Is there a timeframe for this development?

I support the idea of inviting the county and city managers to this committee to discuss park and ride facilities. It is not just a question of the current situation. The sustainable transport element involves secure parking for bicycles as well as cars, which will be an added attraction. I would like to know that county and city managers are at one with us on that point.

These output statements are deficient in that they do not give us an indication of the kind of spending at the end of 2010 and in the programme to 2015. For example, subhead B1 has a major jump in PPP operational payments from €8 million to €51 million. Is that a taste of what is to come? Will more and more money be spent to pay back time for PPPs and interurban lines? It is great to have interurban lines and perhaps it is time to finish the network. The budget has been committed for the future.

Regarding metro north and the interconnector, the western rail corridor and the Navan rail line, do we have a clue what we will spend next year and in the years to 2015 on, for example, metro north? We are grabbing at thin air. We have figures for the first phase of the rail corridor to finish the line to Navan. There will be a temptation, coming up to September, for the Minister for Finance and the Government to slash the budget further and cut back beyond €2 billion. The net impact will be felt just as we are moving from roads to public transport. The public transport budget will be drastically reduced. The Minister must give us more guidance on numbers for the big projects.

Many people are disappointed that the interconnector will not be completed until 2018. There has been slippage on this. The Government looks the other way and projects ramble along. How is it that the RPA estimates metro north will be three years late and Irish Rail estimates it will be six years late? What has been going on in Irish Rail? What happened in Broadmeadow was fundamental.

I do not want to go into detail at this stage. We are five minutes over time.

Is the Minister happy with what has been done on the interconnectors so far?

The NCT is part of the remit of the Road Safety Authority and constituents hassle us about this all the time. Deputy Charlie O'Connor and I had a slight tiff about this point in the Tallow newspaper The Echo. I had to say he was beginning to lose touch with Tallaght.

He has no interest in Tallow.

I mean Tallaght. The NCT has a system where——

We are over time and we must leave the room. We are dealing with national Estimates.

We are spending money on the NCT contract and there is a nine or ten week wait for it. One is not told when the car is due. It worked perfectly well and if it is not broke, why did the Minister break it?

This is a question session.

This is a question about the NCT.

The Minister indicated that An Bord Pleanála would make a decision on metro north in August. Hopefully it will be a positive decision. Part of the proposal includes the park and ride facility in Lissenhall, north of Swords. The NTA has €44 million budget for park and ride. In the event of an affirmative decision, will the park and ride facility proceed?

Regarding the tender from two international consortiums, does the Minister have timescales for when he will decide on one of the tender companies?

I compliment the Minister on the great work being done in the Department. This committee has raised the issue of park and ride. Perhaps we can talk to the Minister about the potential that exists for park and ride facilities such as those in Stockholm, which we hope to visit. There are park and ride facilities at various locations from 40 km from the city to 2 km to the city. They were built because the metro is at capacity and they had to go back to the bus. It is working extremely well. The private sector should be involved in a joint venture on park and ride facilities. The point made by Deputy Kennedy should be taken on board. There is no reason one cannot have park and ride facilities at various locations in the counties around Dublin, in particular where we can use the new double decker services run by Bus Éireann, which are a huge success. The same could apply to other cities.

The Minister also mentioned the Taxi Regulator. Can he use his good offices to ask the NTA, with whom we have had a very positive relationship, to move forward the date on which it takes responsibility. It is planned for next year but this committee has expressed the view that the NTA should take over responsibility for the taxi industry as a matter of urgency.

I understand it will be at the end of this year and will be operational from 1 January 2011. If I learn otherwise I will let the committee know.

If somebody comes forward with a joint venture for a park and ride scheme it will be considered. If it is regarded as strategic it may qualify for assistance. The local authority and public transport companies, or the public transport companies and private companies, have looked at different possibilities relating to park and ride. I have no ideological hang-up about what the combination might be in a joint venture. I would just like to see more of them happening. I would certainly be interested in seeing the report from Stockholm in that regard.

Deputy Broughan raised the question of the NCT test. The backlog from March to mid-April was almost 32,000 but it had fallen to 7,180 by 30 April.

In Ballymun the wait is nine or ten weeks, having once been only a couple of weeks.

If any vehicle owner requires a test quickly he or she should receive an appointment within 28 days. If the company involved cannot make that target there are penalties. The Deputy said he was not aware of what was in the Estimates. Every Department operates under capital envelopes over a three to four-year period and in this case the period runs to 2014. We are aware of our capital indication though we do not know if it will be cut and we operate on that basis. We assign money to various projects and, over the following three or four years, the balance will shift from roads to public transport. If there are delays in the metro and the DART interconnector, we will assign the money to other public transport projects, such as the Navan rail project or phase II of the western rail corridor, both of which can be facilitated by the completion of various works around Dublin.

The Deputy said the output statements were deficient but we operate in accordance with the rules and in accordance with a recommendation of the Committee of Public Accounts, accepted by the Minister for Finance.

Are the PPP payments going to grow and grow?

Yes. As the projects are finished they have to be paid for, as happens with a mortgage. The figure for all projects, including metro north and the interconnector, will rise to some €600 million.

Will that be the cost up to 2015?

No. It will be the cost by the time they are all operational, including metro north.

We are already paying until 2052 for the last road that was finished.

What does the Deputy mean?

We are paying the mortgage until 2052 by which time some of us, unfortunately, will not be around.

The usual period for a road is 25 years.

This is a huge mortgage on the Irish nation for a long time to come.

Absolutely, but we will have the benefit of driving on the roads built with the money.

Future generations will regard it as very cheap. If we had built metro north ten years ago——

The next generation will benefit from the roads we have built and the public transport we have put in place.

It could have been done differently.

We could have borrowed the money ourselves.

We would still have to pay for it. The Deputy's suggestion would mean this generation paying for the comfort of future generations. I am all for spreading it out.

The Minister will be aware that the case of the Galway outer bypass is being heard in the Supreme Court today. Is my understanding correct that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, and the Minister for Transport are requesting that the Supreme Court refer the matter for interim hearing to the European Court of Justice? If that is the case, I would welcome it. Will every effort be made to reach agreement informally with the European Commission so that the planning of the bypass can proceed while the procedural issue is being dealt with in the Supreme Court? The outer bypass is very much part of an integrated travel plan for Galway and the west region, involving a significant public transport element to take cars out of the city.

Deputy Sargent suggested we speak to city and county managers. The NTA will directly engage with city and county managers but I meet them at least once a year. I will certainly raise the matter with them again.

I also asked about the DART extension and the northern suburban line.

I will check it but I do not believe it was included in Transport 21. It will not be introduced in the immediate future, unfortunately,

What about Iarnród Éireann?

My recollection is that the DART extension was in Transport 21, with a date of 2016.

I will check. That may have been the timetable for the electrification of the line.

Yes. Is it due in 2016?

Will that date be met?

The Chairman asked about the Galway outer bypass and he will be well aware of my support for the project. Nothing that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or the Department of Transport have done has caused it to be delayed. It could have been dealt with much more quickly, perhaps even by going through the courts system, but we are where we are. There is no point in revisiting the issue. We are seeking a referral on a point of law to the European Court of Justice. It is not possible to run parallel processes. We must get the matter resolved because it is a fundamental legal issue. We will use our best endeavours to try to ensure that this is processed as quickly as possible so that we can get on with the project.

On a more general note, it is my understanding that discussions are taking place on an amendment to planning legislation where there is an 18-month timescale once a compulsory purchase is made. If the notice to treat is not made within 18 months the planning permission runs out and that would necessitate beginning the whole process again. Is it possible for the Minister to comment?

A general examination is being made of the CPO process, which applies to public projects. It is not due to any specific project, but a case has been made and it is being considered that where a legal action delays a project of any kind and CPOs have been served, it seems ridiculous that they could lapse during the period of time when the legal action is taking place. The matter is being examined.

It is my understanding that Mr. Commane is attending his last meeting of the Oireachtas committee. I pay tribute to him on behalf of the committee for the wonderful work he has done and for his co-operation with the committee. We have lost one or two excellent officials in recent times. We spoke about Mr. Andy Cullen. I was not aware that Mr. John Weafer had also retired. Both of those men were always most helpful to me as Chairman and to Opposition spokespersons. They attended many meetings. I suggest that perhaps we might hold a small reception at some stage for those senior officials, assistant secretaries, to show our appreciation. It is terrible when people retire and they do not appear before us any more and there is no further mention of them. We acknowledge that the success of this committee has been largely due to the very good support and co-operation we have received from senior officials in the Department. The Minister has always been most co-operative in that respect as well.

I do not often speak on behalf of officials but I expect that suggestion would be very much appreciated by the officials who have served the committee. I appreciate the gesture also. It is a nice thought. I hope we can arrange something before the summer.

I thank the Minister and his officials for attending today's meeting of the select committee and assisting our consideration of the Revised Estimates and the output statement. We will adjourn until tomorrow at 2.30 p.m. when we will take Committee Stage of the Road Traffic Bill 2009. The joint committee will meet this afternoon at 3.45 p.m.

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