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SELECT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Thursday, 3 Jun 2010

Road Traffic Bill 2009: Committee Stage

This meeting has been convened for the purpose of consideration by this committee of the Road Traffic Bill 2009, a Bill which was referred to the select committee by order of the Dáil on 25 March 2010. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and his officials, Mr. Maurice Treacy, Mr. Declan Hayes and Ms Denise Keohane. A grouping list has been circulated. I ask members to note the following minor changes to some of the amendments before us. In amendment No. 51, the reference should be changed to section 1 of the Road Traffic and Transport Act 2006. The legislative reference in amendments Nos. 121 and 137 should refer to the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act 1952. I hope this clarifies the matter for members. We will now proceed to consideration of the Bill.

SECTION 1

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 7, subsection (2), line 15, after "provisions" to insert the following:

"provided that this Act shall be brought fully into operation not later than the day that is 12 months from the date of its passing".

I seek this provision because of the many delays we have had on this legislation. We had significant political controversy and there has been huge political interest in the Bill. This most important Bill could, in three or four years' time, be for some people one of the most important pieces of legislation we ever passed. Therefore, we should try to put a time limit on its implementation. I am aware the Minister referred to difficulties with intoxilysers and other equipment, but I urge him to accept the amendment.

I accept the Deputy's bona fides on this and, like him, want this Bill passed and implemented as quickly as possible. I do not disagree with the tenor of his amendment and want the Bill fully in place and commenced within 12 months, particularly the sections dealing with the evidential breath testing, EBT, machines. However, they are not my concern with regard to the amendment. There are other elements of the Bill which might not be possible to be put in place and made operational within the 12 months. I refer in particular to section 40, which will require some preparation. The function covered in section 40 is carried out by the Courts Service, but we are talking about outsourcing that function, which will require a tendering process. There is also a need for new IT to be put in place to ensure the function can be carried out. In those circumstances, it would not be wise to tie us to commencement and full implementation of the Bill within 12 months. I acknowledge the huge effort made by everybody, on all sides of the House, to get this Bill to this stage, but to see it fall 12 months following enactment because all sections have not been commenced would not be a wise course of action. It is intended that as much of the Bill as possible will be commenced and in place within the 12 months, but section 40 may cause a difficulty. On that basis, I ask the Deputy to withdraw his amendment.

I accept the point the Minister has made, but I would ask him to consider, before Report Stage, whether any formula could be used to ensure implementation.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 1 agreed to.
Section 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 8, subsection (1), lines 23 and 24, to delete all words from and including "includes" in line 23 down to and including "alcohol" in line 24 and substitute the following:

"means any substance or combination of substances which affects the central nervous system, leading to changes in perception or behaviour. This includes alcohol and other drugs and any combination of drugs, whether including alcohol or not".

This amendment seeks deletion of the phrase "includes alcohol and drugs and any combination of drugs or drugs and alcohol" and insertion, after "intoxicant", of a much broader definition which would cover all possible intoxicants. My amendment would provide that intoxicant "means any substance or combination of substances which affects the central nervous system, leading to changes in perception or behaviour. This includes alcohol and other drugs and any combination of drugs, whether including alcohol or not." I have been informed by legal advisers to the Labour Party that there is no definition of drugs in the law and because of that there may be loopholes in the law, as a driver might argue that the substance he or she had taken was not a drug. The definition of "intoxicant" therefore, should be changed to intoxicant "means any substance or combination of substances which affects the central nervous system ..." as I have outlined.

The Minister will recall the recent discussion about head shops. We have all had discussions with our local gardaí, in my case in Fingal County and in Dublin city, about definitions of intoxicant-type substances and the difficulties faced by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and the Cabinet and the general public in trying to pin down the substances being sold. We thought it would be an advantage to clarify the definition and to widen it to include any combination of substances or substance which affects the central nervous system.

I have some sympathy with this amendment. I had thought about the wording with regard to the recent incidents involving head shops. I am always reluctant to change any of the definitions we have been using in Road Traffic Acts up to now because they have all undergone challenges in the courts and have withstood those challenges. There is always a danger that a move away from well-established definitions may result in what the Deputy is trying to ensure does not happen, which is to leave a loophole. If the Deputy is prepared to withdraw this amendment, I would like a little more time to consider it and to consult with some of the stakeholders to see if it would be wise to move in this direction. I will come back to the Deputy on Report Stage, one way or the other. I will need further time to consider it.

The definitions in the Road Traffic Act 2002 do not include the definition at that stage. I was aware of that Act and the Minister may have been dealing with it at that time. I do not see a precise definition in that Act. It may well be we are going right back to 1961, 50 years ago, a couple of lifetimes back. We may need to have an upgrade in this regard.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments Nos. 3 and 118 are related and may be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 8, subsection (1), between lines 26 and 27, to insert the following:

" "pedal cycle" means all human-propelled, pedal-driven vehicles including pedestrian rickshaws and electric assisted bicycles which can only be activated when the rider is pedalling and which is speed limited to 25 km/h;".

This issue was raised when we were considering past road traffic legislation. I refer to the importance of cycling and the Minister's programme for smarter travel, the national cycling plan and efforts made by my colleagues in Dublin City Council to develop cycling in the city. I began that project when I was the leader of the Labour Party on the city council. A definition of pedal cycles should be included in the Bill. The Minister's departmental colleagues may know the reference — I could not find it — unicycles and pedal cycles with more than three wheels do not seem to be covered anywhere in the law. The definition of "pedal cycle" should be changed to cover all human propelled pedal-driven vehicles. It would be desirable also to include the other human-powered vehicles as seen in city centres on a Saturday night, in Eyre Square in Galway and other places, the pedestrian rickshaws. It should be clarified whether electric power-assisted bicycles, those bicycles with an electric motor which some colleagues use to travel around the area and which can only be activated when the rider is pedalling and which is speed-limited to 25 km/h, are defined as pedal cycles in law. This relates to greater safety for cyclists. It is the case that irresponsible cyclists do not obey the traffic laws and seem to travel at 50 km/h through streets. This amendment is a proposal to make it safe for everyone and cyclists in particular.

Is the Deputy still cycling?

Occasionally but not in recent times.

We would like to see you continue cycling.

We have all had the experience——

I am a convert myself.

We all cycled for years.

I am doing more all the time.

National bike week is coming up in a couple of weeks. We will get the Deputy out to one of the launch events.

The Deputy is slightly premature with regard to this amendment. I do not disagree with the intent and it is a topic I have given some consideration to. There has been some discussion over the past couple of years about the definitions used. As the Deputy rightly states, there are so many different pedal cycles or versions of them. We have asked the RSA to examine this area for us, particularly in the context of the development of a new EU framework regulation on type approvals of two and three-wheeled vehicles. There is a range of definitional issues as referred to by the Deputy and these are being examined by the RSA. It will bring forward proposals once the examination is completed. It is better to allow the RSA to address the definitional issues and to come back with a full package of proposals rather than trying to deal with it piecemeal by means of this legislation. A comprehensive and overall package would be a better way. I assure the Deputy I am informed the RSA process will take another couple of months and it will then make a report to me. We can then examine this matter in light of a future road traffic Act.

Does the Minister anticipate the RSA will suggest a complete package as to a definition of a pedal cycle? Will the package include all educational developments, safety developments and the green routes to school?

The specific work of the RSA is defining all the different modes of pedal power and so on. The cycle to which the Deputy refers is battery operated. I am not sure whether that would qualify as a mechanically propelled vehicle or a pedal vehicle. It is a very handy machine for going up a hill.

One does not need a licence for it.

A licence is not required at the moment.

I will withdraw the amendment on that basis.

At what level of power is it necessary to have a licence?

A vehicle has to be defined as a mechanically propelled vehicle.

There is not much difference between the bike that is powered with a battery and the smaller mopeds which are now being produced with electric power.

One would do well to do 15 mph an hour on a battery-operated bike.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments Nos. 4 to 6, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 8, subsection (1), to delete lines 27 to 30 and substitute the following:

" "specified person" means a person who at the time of an alleged offence under section 4 or 5—”.

The amendment proposes the clarification of the definition of a "specified person" and at subsection (1)(d), where the wording is changed to reflect the description currently used in secondary legislation in the use of bus lanes. It is to ensure consistency in the legislation.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 8, subsection (1)(d), line 40, after “Act” where it secondly occurs to

insert "or a person purporting to be such a holder".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 8, subsection (1)(d), lines 41 and 42, to delete all words from “vehicle” in line 41, down to and including “hire” in line 42 and substitute the following:

"vehicle, when the vehicle is being used in the course of business".

Amendment agreed to.
Section 3, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 4

Amendments Nos. 7 to 10, inclusive, and 18 are related and may be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 9, subsection (1), line 16, to delete "in a public place".

This amendment refers to a person driving a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while intoxicated. My amendment seeks to delete "in a public place". Our fear is that the reference to a public place might create a technical defence in which the prosecution might need to prove that the place from which the vehicle was emerging or into which it was proceeding was a public place. It could be another barrier to putting the key part of this legislation into effect. We do not see the need for the reference to a public place.

Amendment No. 8 seeks to delete "in a public place" from subsection (2) which states:

A person shall not drive or attempt to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while there is present in his or her body a quantity of alcohol such that, within 3 hours after so driving or attempting to drive, the concentration of alcohol in his or her blood will exceed a concentration of—

(a) 50 milligrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood, or

(b) in case the person is a specified person, 20 milligrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood.

Amendment No. 9 seeks to delete "in a public place" from subsection (3) which states:

A person shall not drive or attempt to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while there is present in his or her body a quantity of alcohol such that, within 3 hours after so driving or attempting to drive, the concentration of alcohol in his or her urine will exceed a concentration of—

(a) 67 milligrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of urine, or

(b) in case the person is a specified person, 27 milligrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of urine.

Amendment No. 10 seeks to delete "in a public place" from subsection (4) which states:

A person shall not drive or attempt to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place while there is present in his or her body a quantity of alcohol such that, within 3 hours after so driving or attempting to drive, the concentration of alcohol in his or her breath will exceed a concentration of—

(a) 22 microgrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of breath, or

(b) in case the person is a specified person, 9 microgrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of breath.

Both on Second Stage and during Question Time in the Dáil, I believe we have previously discussed how difficult road traffic law has been in the past and how citizens have been outraged when people who appear to ordinary observers as clearly guilty of major traffic offences at a collision while intoxicated got off on a technicality. We believe this could be one of the technicalities and that therefore the Minister should remove that reference.

Amendment No. 18 proposes in page 13, subsection (1)(a), lines 6 and 7, to delete “in a public place”, regarding the preliminary breath specimen at the roadside breath test. We should not hamper the Garda by including this phrase.

The reason for the inclusion of "in a public place" is to cover the point the Deputy is making. I understand he is trying to ensure nobody can get away with a drink driving offence or any other kind of road offence by being able to claim he or she is on private property or anything else. Deleting "in a public place" risks getting into the argument of whether a place was private property and constitutional issues arise. The definition of "in a public place" is sufficiently wide. The only private property, I believe, is one's home or dwelling. The definition of public place in the 1961 Act states:

"public place" means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

It covers everywhere except a private dwelling. It has been legally challenged on a number of occasions where different offences were alleged to have taken place and has withstood all the challenges. What the Deputy is trying to achieve is actually achieved by having "in a public place" in those sections rather than leaving it out as it could otherwise give rise to difficulties. I ask the Deputy to withdraw his amendments.

A significant portion of my constituency is in the northern fringe, which is approximately one quarter built. Many of those roads are not yet taken in charge and still belong to the developer. Many estates in Meath and Dublin have been under development for eight, nine or ten years and have still not been taken in charge by the local authorities. If a garda stopped somebody on such roads, how would they qualify as being a public place?

They are a right of way, a place where the public have a right of entry with a mechanically propelled vehicle without charge. People can drive into an estate whether finished or unfinished or taken in charge by the local authority. There are a number of such estates. That is the definition and they are covered. For instance a pub's car park would also be covered.

I understand Deputy Broughan's argument regarding a public place that is not taken in charge by the local authority. While there are many estates as Deputy Broughan says, what about gated communities? The gate might work or might not work. The more salubrious ones might have a security guard in charge. Can gardaí follow somebody into a gated community? Is that a public place?

They would not be able follow people into an area like that because entry is restricted and they would need a warrant to do so.

I can envisage many tricky cases. There are many ones that started five or ten years ago as gated communities and the gate worked for a while. However, having been repeatedly broken and repaired by the poor old management company, it gave up.

If the gate is open and one can get access——

In some cases the gate is still there and in some cases it is gone. I can see arguments about gardaí going through gated communities where the gate is open and one can get through. I could envisage somebody arguing that such a place is not a public place. It is a secondary argument as to whether it is in the charge of the local authority, but it is a tricky area.

Once the gate is open one can go in.

One should keep the gates open.

It is a serious point. With road traffic law there have been several cases throughout the years of people guilty of serious offences effectively getting away with it. I understand the Minister's point and I would like to expedite proceedings. I ask the Minister and his officials to review the legal background over the years to determine whether we are covered or should we consider adding another phrase to "in a public place" to make it cast iron. We need to give prosecutors the strongest possible powers.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment Nos. 8 to 10, inclusive, moved.

Amendments Nos. 11 and 12 are related and may be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 11:

In page 9, subsection (5), line 46, to delete "6 months" and substitute "12 months". I am proposing to increase the penalties here, so that a person who contravenes the drink driving intoxication offence in Chapter 2, on summary conviction, could be imprisoned for a term not exceeding 12 months. The proposal is to increase the term of imprisonment from six months to 12 months. In the case of the prohibition on being in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle while under the influence of alcohol, I am seeking to increase the penalty in section 5 to 12 months.

The advice we have received from the Office of the Attorney General in this regard is strongly against the introduction of such a term of imprisonment in summary trial cases, as it goes against the overall intent of such trials. The only example of a term of imprisonment of 12 months being provided for in the Road Traffic Acts is the section 112 prohibition on taking a vehicle without authority. As I have said, the strong advice we have received is that we should not go down this particular route for any of these offences. If the offence is more serious, it is always open to the Garda authorities to take it to a higher level. They can use their discretion in that way. On the basis of the advice I have received, I ask the Deputy to withdraw the amendment.

The Minister has permitted the use of discretion by providing for a fine of up to €5,000. Why has he not provided for imprisonment in a similar way?

Because €5,000 is the usual fine for that.

On summary conviction.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 4 agreed to.
Amendment No. 12 not moved.
Section 5 agreed to.
SECTION 6

As amendment No. 14 is an alternative to amendment No. 13, the two amendments may be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 13:

In page 11, subsection (2), to delete lines 22 to 33 and substitute the following:

"and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or both.".

This is the first time I have been involved with amendments at a committee meeting. We have tabled this amendment because we want everything to be lumped in together. People who are riding bicycles, etc., are all the same at the end of the day. We seem to be a bit soft. A person on a bicycle can cause the same harm to himself or to anybody else. A person in control of a vehicle, who is carrying someone other than himself, should be dealt with quite harshly at the beginning. That is why we want all cases to be put into the same bracket.

The replacement of a maximum fine of €2,000 with a fine of €5,000, as proposed in both amendments before the committee, would not be proportionate in certain cases. If one compares offences involving animal-drawn vehicles and pedal cyclists to offences involving the use of mechanically-propelled vehicles, one will agree that the potential for serious injuries and fatalities is considerably less in the former than in the latter. We are trying to distinguish between mechanically-propelled vehicles and non-mechanically-propelled vehicles, on the basis that less damage is done by the latter group of vehicles. If one has an accident while using a pedal cycle or an animal-drawn vehicle, one will probably do more damage to one's self than anybody else. We have made this good distinction for that reason. In any event, I think the courts would be reluctant to impose a fine of €5,000 for an offence like this. If something more serious occurs — if somebody with an unlit horse-drawn carriage cause a serious car accident, for example, it will be open to the Garda to prosecute that person for a more serious offence. It is not deemed proportionate to impose the proposed higher fine for the offence itself.

I support Deputy McEntee's amendment, which proposes the same thing as amendment No. 14, in my name. The broader point is that we want to cover everybody who uses the roads. Cyclists and other road users are outside the remit of some traffic legislation, to some extent. Section 6 is good because it brings them within the remit of such legislation. Perhaps it emphasises the seriousness of going out on the road or the street on a bicycle or another kind of vehicle. I remember that somebody on a horse did substantial damage to a car when they jumped onto a road in my constituency. That is not exactly covered here. We cannot be responsible for such behaviour. We need a level playing pitch for all road users. We should be coming from that perspective. Therefore, I support Deputy McEntee's amendment and my own amendment.

I will have examine the matter in advance of Report Stage. The use of the term "not exceeding" means the courts will be able to use their discretion to distinguish between lesser offences, such as being caught on a bicycle, and more serious offences, such as causing an accident. I will consider changing the wording to "not exceeding €5,000".

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 14 not moved.
Section 6 agreed to.
NEW SECTION

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 11, before section 7, but in Chapter 2, to insert the following new section:

"7.—A member of the Garda Síochána for the purpose of—

(a) making a requirement of a person under section 8(1) or 9(4), or

(b) arresting a person under section 4(8), 5(10) or 6(4), may enter without warrant (if need be by use of reasonable force) any place (including the curtilage of a dwelling but not the dwelling) where the person is or where the member, with reasonable force, suspects him or her to be.”.

This amendment proposes a new section. It may address some of the concerns Deputy Broughan expressed a few moments ago with regard to public places. It will give the Garda the power to enter any place, excluding a dwelling, without a search warrant for the purpose of obtaining a preliminary breath specimen from a person in charge of a vehicle in a public place, or arresting the person in such situations — where the person has, for example, not remained at a mandatory alcohol testing checkpoint or has been involved in a collision and has entered such a place for the purposes of evading preliminary breath testing. It gives the Garda pretty extensive powers to enter all places, except a dwelling, in order to breathalyse somebody who is suspected of drink-driving. It strengthens the law.

I welcome the Minister's decision to include this new section in the Bill. It is a response to some of the concerns we raised on Second Stage. I would like to mention something that has struck a lot of people. Members of PARC, who have campaigned for a long time for legislation to strengthen the drink-driving law, are here today as our guests to watch the committee's proceedings. They and others have asked me to explain how the word "suspects" can be used here, rather than a phrase that is used later in the Bill. As we move through the amendments, we will come to the nub of the Bill. We will deal with the core issue of mandatory testing from section 17 onwards. The word "suspects" is used here. The expression "in the opinion of", which is used elsewhere in the Bill, is not used here. I understand that the simple word "suspects", which is used here, is legally a much stronger word when it applies to a member of the Garda. Is that not inconsistent with the nub of the Bill? I appreciate that we will debate mandatory testing in a few minutes. It seems incongruous that the phrase is being used here, quite rightly, but not a few pages later on in the Bill.

We will deal with that when we come to it.

I am making a point about this section.

It is relevant.

I am asking why the Minister rightly uses the word "suspects" here but not in the other part of the Bill?

There is a simple and straightforward answer to that question. This is a completely new section of the Bill. It greatly strengthens the powers of the Garda. It has not been used before. I am advised that it is reasonable to use the word in this context because it is a new section. We discussed this matter in section 8. The difference arises from the legal challenges to which we referred and the need for the provisions to be able to withstand legal challenge. This is the reason the word "suspects" rather than the words "forms the opinion" can be used.

I accept the Minister's point which we will discuss in greater detail in a moment.

Amendment agreed to.
SECTION 7

I move amendment No. 16:

In page 12, subsection (1), line 11, to delete "a concentration" and substitute "the presence".

The amendment refers to the procedure in relation to a person required to undergo a breath test who cannot produce his or her driving licence. It is a minor technical amendment to the section which is introduced for clarification purposes. When using the evidential breath test the procedure used before the test is taken is to try to detect "the presence", whereas when the measurement has been taken it is referred to as a "concentration".

Amendment agreed to.
Section 7, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 8

Amendments Nos. 17, 28 and 29 are related and will be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 17:

In page 13, subsection (1)(a), line 6, to delete “is of opinion” and substitute “suspects”.

This is a key section which relates to the obligation to provide a preliminary breath specimen when requested by a member of the Garda Síochána. The amendment proposes that in section 8(1), a member of the Garda Síochána should suspect rather than be "of opinion" regarding a person in charge of a vehicle in a public place. Amendment No. 19 proposes to insert the word "or" after the words "has consumed intoxicating liquor".

The amendments and use of the term "is of opinion" are at the core of the Bill. Mandatory testing is the key new sanction introduced in the legislation. On Second Stage we discussed at length the role of alcohol in serious and fatal road collisions. A study carried out by Dr. Declan Bedford was mentioned. Dr. Bedford's study showed that alcohol was a factor in 37% of fatal collisions. It was a contributory factor in the case of 42% of drivers who died and 34% of the drivers studied were over the legal alcohol limit. The study also found that only 8% of surviving drivers were tested for alcohol, while 65% of drivers who died were tested. The study is entitled, The Role of Alcohol in Fatal Collisions in Ireland 2003 to 2005.

It was through the wonderful campaign of the PARC organisation that my attention was drawn to Dr. Bedford's important research. PARC and other campaigners have highlighted many cases involving fatal collisions where the person killed tested negative for alcohol whereas the driver of the other vehicle, the person who allegedly caused the crash, was not tested at the scene and it could not be determined or proven in court that the surviving driver had been negligent or over the limit. PARC, which has given wonderful support to Opposition parties on this issue, has shown clearly that the use of the phrase "is of opinion" or "forms an opinion" is highly problematic and will lead to considerable difficulty. It could also result in further cases of people who flagrantly break the law by driving a car while intoxicated and killing someone getting way without a test.

As I indicated, this is one of the most important Bills passed in the history of the House. If we get this right, in three or four years when reminiscing about this Dáil, we will be able to state that people who would otherwise have been killed in road traffic accidents are alive because of the action we took in adopting this legislation. I ask the Minister to grasp the nettle and introduce mandatory testing for all collisions. Let us follow the route adopted by many other countries, including many of our European Union partners, and Northern Ireland, which recently passed legislation on this matter.

The use of the phrase "is of opinion" will not facilitate the introduction of mandatory testing and should, therefore, be dropped because it places an excessive legal burden on the Garda Síochána in requiring that a garda be sure a driver has transgressed and be in a position to justify forming this opinion. The use of the term will also continue to allow discretionary powers which do not have any place in a mandatory testing system. As I argued on Second Stage, why does the Minister not simply mandate the testing of all drivers who have been involved in a collision to which the Garda is called?

A couple of years ago, the Northern Ireland authorities introduced legislation in which testing was mandated in cases where there was "reasonable cause to suspect" that a driver had consumed alcohol. My party's barristers advise me that the use of the word "suspects" in this case is the best way to proceed. It would allow slight flexibility to a garda in the case of a minor collision in which no one is injured. The central issue, however, is the testing of intoxicated drivers who have been involved in a collision in which a person has been seriously injured or killed.

A driver's intoxication through alcohol or drugs may not always be clearly apparent to another person, especially if people are injured and there is a chaotic crash scene. People who have been involved in a reasonably serious collision, including some of those present, will understand what type of circumstances prevail at the scene of a collision.

During discussion and consultations on the Bill, the Minister gave a commitment to PARC that wording such as "of opinion" would not be used and specific testing powers such as those available in Northern Ireland would be used. Speaking about random breath testing to this committee in 2006, former Garda Commission, Noel Conroy, stated: "If we had continued with the system whereby a garda had to form an opinion before undertaking a breath test, a certain proportion of the people who were arrested recently would have slipped the net." In 2005, when we amended legislation to change the position on random breath testing Commissioner Conroy strongly commended the action of the then Minister, Deputy Martin Cullen. In the United Kingdom, our nearest neighbour, police are under instruction to test all drivers for alcohol at collision scenes. I examined the position in a range of European countries, including France and Poland. We spoke before about Australia and have been studying it recently because there have been a number of tragic collisions there involving Irish citizens who emigrated thereto recently during the recession. The Australians have mandatory testing. The 2008 European Commission recommended giving the police "unrestricted powers" to breath test. I ask the Minister to reconsider this matter and restore the formula that obtained in regard to random breath testing. He should answer the pleas of PARC, which has campaigned heroically for this legislation, and introduce mandatory testing where there are collisions involving serious injury and death. That should be the way forward. This is the nub of the Bill and I, therefore, ask the Minister to accept amendment No. 17.

I support Deputy Broughan on this matter, on which I feel strongly for many reasons. The up-to-date figures are such that the Minister, despite a certain amount of opposition from individuals in every party, has the backing of every party as a whole in respect of legislating to lower the blood alcohol limit. The people have accepted this and it would be wrong if we left a weakness. Not having mandatory testing is the one weakness. If one gets the message out once, people will accept it. If a person is not guilty, he or she will have no problem taking a test.

Deputy Broughan referred to a personal issue. I can clearly recall a night I spent with a young girl strapped in a car, watching every ounce of blood drain out of her system. The lad that had been driving was stoned out of his tree. By the time the gardaí and everyone else came, he knew what to do and got away with it when brought to court.

Three months after I entered this Dáil, I manned the road in my area with the local gardaí to try to catch the same fellow, who had ploughed into my 80-year-old father and left him in the car with the blood oozing out of him. The culprit was stoned again but still got away. I spent three hours waiting for him and four hours later than night I found him in a pub down in Drumconrath. Only I was an elected Member at the time, I would have killed him. I feel very strongly about this. I ask the Minister to re-introduce mandatory testing. Irrespective of the nature of the accident, one has nothing to fear from mandatory testing. The general public, including the young people, do not fear it. The young people have driven home to us the message that one should not drink and drive. If one is not drinking, one has nothing to fear if one is brought in.

The campaign by PARC is to have mandatory testing where someone is injured in an accident, but that it would be subject to overriding medical considerations. This is being accepted in the legislation. Section 8(1)(b) states that, where there is an injury, one “shall” be subject to mandatory testing. There is no discretion left to the Garda at all. It is only where there is a small tip and there is no injury that the garda is able to form an opinion. I accept PARC’s view, stated at a recent committee meeting, that in some cases there may not be an obvious injury and that it might only become manifest afterwards, but if a garda comes on the scene very quickly and asks the two drivers what happened, he or she can very quickly develop an impression as to whether it was a case of someone being jarred or asleep, or whether it was just a tip. Sometimes if there is just a small tip, the garda says, “Get off the bloody road and free the traffic.”

The campaign was very logical and sensible. Deputy McEntee referred to cases where people got away. We all want to close down that loophole. What is sought is widespread mandatory——

The Deputy should allow the Minister to respond.

Hold on a second, Chairman. I am not necessarily against what Deputy Broughan is saying but am questioning the way he is reading the legislation.

Could the phrase "is of the opinion" not be too broad?

Yes, but only where there is no injury. The campaign, as I understood it, was to tackle cases where injuries were incurred and smart people got away, as stated by Deputy McEntee. It was a very logical campaign and it is being taken on board.

Consider the case of an accident involving a neighbour of mine. There was not a bother on him when the gardaí came to the scene but an hour later he was dead. At the time of the accident, he got out of the car and helped the gardaí.

Was it a heart attack?

No, he was bleeding internally. We should cut out drink driving altogether. People have accepted this Bill but I would not like to think there are loopholes.

The very fact that the only point of contention is whether we use the phrase "is of the opinion" or "suspects" makes it very clear that all sides of the House have been supportive at all times of the introduction of testing. That is exactly what we are doing in this Bill. I would not like the impression to be circulated that we are not doing as I describe because we are doing so.

Deputy Broughan's sensible amendment and the submissions to the committee by PARC and other bodies concern whether we use the phrase "is of the opinion" or "suspects". There is no argument about the rest of the matter.

With regard to how matters have been presented, Deputy Ahern has answered the various points. I will not go back over them in detail. There are two specific areas we are talking about. Section 8(1) states:

Where a member of the Garda Síochána—

(a) is of opinion that a person in charge of a vehicle in a public place—

(i) has consumed intoxicating liquor,

(ii) is or has, with the vehicle, been involved in a collision, or

(iii) is committing or has committed an offence under the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2009,

the member may require [testing].

The second area concerns the core of the campaign and the commitment. Once a garda attends at the scene of an event which has occurred in a public place in which injury appears or is claimed to have been caused to a person of such nature as to require medical assistance for the person at the scene of the event or for the person to be brought to a hospital for medical assistance and a vehicle was involved in the event, the member shall require mandatory testing.

Neither Deputy Broughan nor I is a legal expert and I must take advice from the legal experts we have. I am agnostic in respect of which phrase is used but the reason "is of the opinion" is used is because it has been tried and tested in court case after court case. There are legal precedents and clear case law. It is very definite what it means. "Suspects", to me as a layperson, is the same but it has not withstood the legal test.

There are a number of steps we could take. We can leave the legislation as it is, as I am advised, in which case it would take into account that there is no difference between "is of the opinion" and "suspects". I can ask whether "suspects" can be used if it does not make a great difference or, better still, take a belt-and-braces approach and use the phrase "is of the opinion or suspects". Everybody is on the same side; it is just a matter of how we arrive at our objective. I would not state "is of the opinion and suspects" because this would be including two requirements. Although I am not a legal person, I believe there is less difficulty in proving one's case where "is of the opinion" is the phrase used. A person has only to say that he or she was of the opinion. If one takes the phrase used by the Deputy at one stage, to the effect, that "the Garda officer has reason to suspect", then the lawyers will have a field day. A garda might say, "I suspected he was in it", and——

That was definitely in the 2007 Northern Ireland road traffic regulations. They have very similar lawyers to us, since both the Republic and the North are common law jurisdictions.

I am not in favour of putting that phrase in, although I take the point, so as not to delay the issue. If the Deputies agree, I shall take further advice on whether to leave it as it is or change "is of the opinion" to "suspects", as the Deputies want. The belt and braces approach, however, might be to say, "suspects, or is of the opinion". We shall review those three options and on Report Stage I shall come back to the Deputies with my decision.

Is that agreed?

I welcome the fact that the Minister is prepared to look at it thoroughly again. The key point is that we want mandatory testing at collisions. I have spoken to Deputy Ahern. We both serve on the police forums of Fingal and Dublin city. I have spoken to our chief superintendent and superintendents as regards how they would feel about the operation of the legislation. While taking into account what Deputy Ahern calls "tips" and so on, obviously people want to get on with things and they exchange insurance details, but we are talking about collisions where people are seriously injured. The overwhelming wish is for mandatory testing in those circumstances, in the strongest possible legal form. The strongest form that my legal advisers could come with was just the word, "suspects" having reviewed the case law in this area.

I believe that Northern Ireland and British law is very interesting in this regard. We need a very strong commitment from the Minister this afternoon. Amendment No. 19 is very closely related to this. Perhaps we should have taken them together, but we are coming up to this now. The Minister has got to strengthen this section. That is really what we need. It should be done in such a way that it is as watertight as possible, so that the disgraceful figures to emerge from Dr. Bedford's famous report in the period 2003-05 will not be replicated after 2010. This trend must be over, as Deputy McEntee has rightly indicated.

The good work done by the RSA and others has meant that younger people are paying attention, and are listening, as we have seen. They are acting much more responsibly, despite the recent spate of terrible tragedies. The generality of younger people, however, have responded brilliantly in this regard and are very serious about this by showing that drinking and driving is over. We have to commend them for this, but we need to have a legal formula to make that desire cast iron in law and I am tempted to call for a division in this regard. We have to put down a marker as regards what we have to do. I intend to press the amendment.

I want to say a few words as regards mandatory testing at accidents and I have been listening to the debate on the monitor. From what I gathered from the Minister‘s reply, he seems to be swayed by most of the arguments. However, I am somewhat surprised that he is not coming out fully and openly. There must be some legal problem that I do not see.

This is something in which I have had an enormous interest over many years. One would assume, in the case of tragic accidents, where people are either killed or seriously injured, that drivers should have their blood tested for alcohol. I cannot see any reason why this should not be done. I can well appreciate that medical intervention might be availed of where a driver was unconscious, say, and had to be brought to hospital. In the event, that situation would be based on medical opinion. Given that there is so much breath testing for alcohol being conducted in any event, I should have thought this would not be a step too far under any given norms within a democracy. I cannot see why a driver in any road accident should not be subjected to a test for alcohol, unless matters are not as black and white as I see them. Ultimately, this is what the public wants.

The public's concern is that in the aftermath of such terrible accidents, the drivers responsible may be seen to walk away, and eventually come before the courts on much lesser charges. It is very unfair to families who may have lost their loved ones in the event. It should be mandatory that any driver involved in an accident should be tested for alcohol once the gardaí came on the scene. I do not want to take up the select committee's time, but that is the principle I want to get across. Even people who were never involved in accidents believe the principle of this is right.

That is precisely the principle that is in the Bill and it is what we are trying to give effect to. I do not understand this, in a sense, almost phoney war.

I can assure the Minister that it is not phoney.

I am sorry, but the Deputy has just outlined what he wants, and it is actually in the Bill.

Not as we see it.

The Deputy has tabled no amendment in this regard, but what he is looking for is actually in the Bill. I know the deep personal interest he has in this regard. I heard his speech on Second Stage and I am not contesting his bona fides. However, we are doing what he is looking for in the Bill.

I have gone further, in that I have said that if "suspects" can be changed or inserted instead of "is of the opinion", after we take legal advice, this will be done. However, for the sake of appearing to be playing to a gallery or anything else, I am not going to weaken the provision in this Bill. If I get legal advice from the Attorney General's office that the phrase to be inserted in this Bill is "is of the opinion", that is what I shall put in because this is the one I believe is strongest.

If I get the advice that I can use "is of the opinion or suspects", I shall use that. If the Attorney General's office says that "suspects" is a more modern word, I shall insert that at the requests of the members opposite, but I want to ensure the legislation is robust and that some smart lawyer will not be able to drill a hole in "suspects". That is why I prefer to have them both——

The Minister will understand that we feel very strongly about this.

I understand that.

I know the Minister understands, but I want him to know that we feel it is important. His legal advisers — and I shall talk to ours — may determine that there could be a stronger formula. Going back to Deputy Connaughton's point, if I was trying to draft section 8(1), it could, perhaps, be put in such a way that it is clearly absolutely mandatory, so I shall press the amendment for the record, to encourage the Minister.

I do not have any objection to this at all. I know about the campaign and I support it, as do others. The campaign was for the introduction of mandatory testing when an accident occurred, and that is in the Bill. The section refers to a person who is injured or who claims to have an injury, so there does not have to be a visual sign of an injury. A person could tell a garda that he had been in an accident, feels unwell and wants to go to a hospital, and there must be mandatory testing in such a case. There does not have to be any obvious sign of an injury, such as blood.

The campaign seems to have been widened and some people now want mandatory testing where the smallest little accident takes place and where there is no question of any injury whatsoever. I do not have a problem with that, but the Garda is not interested in legislative changes to deal with little tips that occur on the road. They are often just matters for sorting out between the drivers and their insurance companies. The drivers often just get off the road, exchange insurance numbers and get on with their business. Mandatory testing for every kind of tip is a different campaign. I do not have any hang up about it if that was the law, but will traffic be blocked here, there and everywhere just because there was the smallest tip? Would drivers then be afraid of pulling their car to the side of the road as they might be accused of leaving the scene of an accident before a garda arrives? How ridiculous would things become?

The serious cases to which the Deputy refers are covered in section 8(b).

We are not changing it. We are just trying to provide less discretion for the garda.

The campaign is covered entirely in section 8(b), where there is an injury. Maybe section 8(b) should have been inserted before section 8(a), because people are reading section 8(a) and they feel it is a bit vague. Section 8(a) is for cases where there is no injury. If there was mandatory testing, no matter how small the accident, what are the ramifications? Would we make the law ridiculous? Would we be afraid to pull our cars to the side of the road, or leave the scene of any accident, even for the slightest tip? It appears section 8(a) is about the smallest accidents where there is no injury or the suggestion of an injury. In my opinion, the campaign is dealt with under section 8(b). To make it mandatory in all cases might create more problems down the road than we want.

Deputy Broughan spoke about amendment No. 19 as well. I have no difficulty accepting that amendment.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 3; Níl, 6.

  • Broughan, Thomas P.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • McEntee, Shane.

Níl

  • Aylward, Bobby.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Kennedy, Michael.
  • O’Brien, Darragh.
Amendment declared lost.
Barr
Roinn