Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Special Committee Companies Bill, 1962 díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 26 Mar 1963

SECTION 185.

I move amendment No. 66 :

To delete subsection (1) and substitute :

" (1) It shall not be lawful for a company to pay a director remuneration (whether as director or otherwise) free of income tax or of income tax and sur-tax or of sur-tax, or otherwise calculated by reference to or varying with the amount of his income tax or his income tax and sur-tax or his sur-tax, or to or with the rate of income tax or sur-tax except under a contract which was in force on the 31st day of March, 1962, and provides expressly, and not by reference to the articles, for payment of remuneration as aforesaid."

The amendment I propose is purely a drafting one. Members will see this from the brief that has been circulated. This is a new provision and was recommended by the Committee. Directors' fees and salaries may at present be paid free of income tax. There are a number of obvious objections to that, the main one being, of course, that provision for tax free remuneration of directors is an undisclosed imposition on the members of a company. Nobody would know really how much the income tax would be. It is better that any sum paid to the directors should be a gross sum.

Does this apply to a private company as well as to a public company ?

It applies to all.

Can we accept the amendment or are there further comments ?

Is it necessary to be as stringent with private companies as with public companies ?

It is more important in the case of private companies. The entire profits could be run away with in directors' fees, if this device were resorted to.

In what way, as a matter of curiosity ?

The payment of £500 to a particular director free of tax might require a gross payment of £5,000.

He would want to be very far up for that to happen.

The profit is allocated usually in the form of salaries to directors.

In public companies it is an essential provision.

I think it is desirable for all. Again, if one tried to distinguish between the small private company and the private company that is not so small, it would be impossible to legislate for it.

Is this the same as in Northern Ireland ?

Amendment agreed to.
Section 185, as amended, agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 67 :

Before section 186 to insert a new section as follows :

(1) It shall not be lawful for a company to make a loan to any person who is its director or a director of its holding company, or to enter into any guarantee or provide any security in connection with a loan made to such person as aforesaid by any other person, so, however, that nothing in this section shall apply—

(a) to anything done by a company which is for the time being a private company; or

(b) subject to subsection (2), to anything done to provide any such person as aforesaid with funds to meet expenditure incurred or to be incurred by him for the purposes of the company or for the purpose of enabling him properly to perform his duties as an officer of the company; or

(c) in the case of a company whose ordinary business includes the lending of money or the giving of guarantees in connection with loans made by other persons, to anything done by the company in the ordinary course of that business.

(2) Paragraph (b) of subsection (1) shall not authorise the making of any loan, or the entering into any guarantee, or the provision of any security, except either—

(a) with the prior approval of the company given at a general meeting at which the purposes of the expenditure and the amount of the loan or the extent of the guarantee or security, as the case may be, are disclosed; or

(b) on condition that, if the approval of the company is not given as aforesaid at or before the next following annual general meeting, the loan shall be repaid or the liability under the guarantee or security shall be discharged, as the case may be, within six months from the conclusion of that meeting.

(3) Where the approval of the company is not given as required by any such condition, the directors authorising the making of the loan, or the entering into the guarantee, or the provision of the security, shall be jointly and severally liable to indemify the company against any loss arising therefrom."

The purpose of this amendment is to prohibit the granting of loans to directors by public companies. The wording which I have used is that of the Northern Ireland Act of 1960. It is also the wording of the British Act of 1948. I want to emphasise that the amendment relates only to public companies. I think it is very desirable to prevent public companies from lending money to their directors for any purpose and, particularly, for the purchase of shares in that company.

The Cohen Committee in Britain recommended a prohibition of these loans. Our Committee, in this country, considered the matter and thought it was not necessary to go as far as British law by prohibiting such loans. At the time the Committee was sitting the Northern Ireland Act had not, in fact, been passed.

In this amendment there is a certain relevancy to Section 192 which requires particulars of loans to directors to be given in the accounts. In other words, we here are providing for disclosure of these loans rather than prohibiting them, working, I presume, on the principle that if the shareholders are informed of what is going on they can take action if they consider it necessary to invalidate these loans. It is very undesirable that a director of a public company, a money raising company, should borrow money from it. It would, to my mind, amount to a breach of faith with the shareholders who have appointed him. If a director is a good mark for a loan he should be able to raise his financial requirements from the proper financial institutions : banks, building societies, bills of exchange and so on. If he is not a sound commercial risk why should he be lent money by the public company of which he is a director? The case is as simple as that.

I think the Committee, in this country, was unduly conservative in its recommendations. There is a very good case for keeping the British and Northern Ireland precedent in regard to this matter, as we have done in Section 185, to which we have just referred. In particular, I want to urge this viewpoint on the Minister. The disclosure will not serve the moral purpose of preventing these loans, because disclosure in the balance sheet can be circumvented by a device popularly known as window-dressing, whereby a balance sheet can be dressed up to conceal the real position. Where window-dressing is resorted to the auditor frequently can do nothing at all about it.

What I have in mind is this. Say, our Chairman is director of XYZ, a public company. His company lends him £25,000, which he uses to buy shares in the company. The chances are that if he is a man of any substance whatsoever, on the balance sheet date he will be able to effect some sort of short-term borrowing for 24 hours or for 48 hours and have it renewed again 24 hours later. Because a transaction of that nature has all the appearances of a bona fide transaction, the auditors can do nothing whatsoever about it.

The question of window-dressing has posed quite a serious, insoluble problem for the auditing profession in Britain and in other countries. I have nothing further to say. There is a cast-iron case in favour of my amendment which has the British and Northern Ireland precedent.

Does that precedent apply only to public companies ?

Only to public companies. I am suggesting we should do that here. There is just one provision I would make. Jenkins considered this matter and recommended the strengthening and reinforcing of the law in Britain with these provisions which I have put into my amendment. It might, however, be argued that in the case of working directors, full-time directors, if a company wishes to lend a director money to buy a house, there might be a case for that. Apart from that, I can see no circumstances whatsoever where loans by public companies to directors can be justified.

I think there is a good deal to be said in favour of this amendment. It was considered by the Company Law Reform Committee whose report states:

We do not favour a general prohibition of such loans, as they could be easily evaded by making the loan to some relative of the director or in other ways.

That surely is refusing to deal with it because it is difficult ? The Cohen Committee were quite strong on this. It is I think correct to say that the recommendation in the Cohen Committee was adopted and endorsed by the Jenkins Report. Let me quote the Cohen Committee at paragraph 94. It says :

We consider it undesirable that directors should borrow from their companies. If the director can offer good security it is no hardship to him to borrow from other sources. If he cannot offer good security, it is undesirable that he should obtain from the company credit which he would not be able to obtain elsewhere.

The Jenkins Report recommended that the law should be strengthened further by prohibiting loans to a company in which the directors of the lending company hold a majority interest.

There is, of course, a case for Deputy Byrne's amendment but in drafting the Bill we were faced with the recommendations of our own Committee. At the end of paragraph 145 of their report they state:

We do not accordingly recommend any provision relating to loans by companies to directors other than the requirements that these should be fully disclosed in the accounts.

They came to that conclusion largely because of the possibility of evasion. Our Committee considered a number of alternatives including a provision that all loans to directors should require the approval of a general meeting. They rejected that solution because it could render the conduct of the affairs of a company too cumbersome. A second suggestion was to prohibit loans altogether. As Deputy Cosgrave and Deputy Byrne mentioned, this was recommended by the Cohen Committee and is now law in Britain and the Six Counties in relation to public companies. The third suggestion was that all loans made by a company to directors ought to carry interest at a minimum specified rate.

After considering these possibilities, the Committee came down on the side of disclosures as provided for in Section 192. Deputy Byrne says Section 192 is not sufficient because of the danger of window dressing, that is the manipulation of transactions by bringing monies into credit at a particular time when the accounts are being prepared. But Section 192 specifically provides that the amount of any loans made must be disclosed in the accounts, even though these loans may have been repaid before the company's financial year had ended. So, there is no possibility of evading disclosures of loans which had been made during the course of the year and then repaid.

The main reason we do not include a section such as Deputy Byrne proposes is because our own Committee, having gone into it very carefully, recommended that the best way to provide against this abuse was by disclosure as provided for in Section 192, to which, incidentally, we have an amendment which we will deal with later on. There is one other point I should have made. Deputy Byrne's amendment relates only to public companies. In this country the amendment proposed by Deputy Byrne would have very little application because of the 10,000 companies we have registered here only 400 are public companies.

I am only concerned with public companies.

Public company loans of this kind are very rare, I understand.

Regarding this category of loans, suppose there is a public company trading abroad which in the nature of things requires a director to travel abroad. He is allowed various director's expenses to cover that trip which he will duly vouch and balance in his imprest. For instance, supposing there is a company trading with the USA or the Continent, or even England and one of their directors goes over there for the purpose of business. He takes money in his pocket to meet his expenses. That is in the nature of an imprest. He vouches the expenses when he comes back and either pays the balance or gets the balance as the case may be. Does that come within the definition of a loan that would come within the meaning of Deputy Byrne's amendment or Section 192 ? Apart from that there does not seem to be any case to go further than the Committee went.

If the practice is improper in the case of public companies surely it is improper in the case of other companies? Even if I were inclined to accept the amendment, I do not think I could possibly limit its application to public companies.

Supposing Deputy Gallagher sets himself up as a private company and borrows money, why should anyone attempt to stop him? He owns the company so why should anybody stop him ? A public company is a completely different matter.

Section 192 will ensure that shareholders will know all about these matters in future.

Could we deal with this section and enlarge further when we come to Section 192?

The Minister has enlightened me as to the purport of Section 192, subsection (1) (a). I have considerable doubts as to the interpretation he puts on Section 192 regarding the disclosure of loans made during the year and repaid at the date of the balance sheet. That interpretation is not at all clear to me under Section 192 as at present drafted, and I think it would have to be strengthened on those lines.

Could we not deal with that when we come to the section ?

To get back to my amendment, the Minister's approach is based on the assumption that if you place shareholders in possession of the facts of a loan having been made that they are in a position to do something about it in a public company. The fact of the matter is that that is a false presumption. Making information alone available to shareholders does not ensure that the appropriate action will be taken. Most shareholders in this context do not understand the accounts which they receive at present, the accounts which will be even more complex if this Bill becomes an Act. I would point out to the Minister that the Committee which made this very conservative recommendation sat several years ago. I think they were set up in 1951 and the Northern Ireland Act had not, in fact, been passed at that time. As the Minister himself has said before it is very desirable that as far as possible we should keep in step in respect of company law with Northern Ireland in particular. I still think that the implementation of my amendment confined to public companies would be the correct course of action to take.

Has Deputy Byrne considered at all that there might be circumstances in which it would be desirable to permit a company to make a loan to a director ?

Yes, if it is a money lending company—to provide him with a house expenses if he is transferred from Dublin, Cork or Galway but in no other circumstances. If a director is a good mark he could raise money from the bank or a suitable financial institution. If he is not a good mark, he should not be allowed to approach the shareholders of, say, a manufacturing company and turn that company into a money-lending institution.

Could the Minister tell us or has he any information on how the provision in the Act in the North or in Britain is working ? As I understand it, in paragraphs 44 and 45, our Committee were really not so much opposed to a provision of this nature, but felt that it could be evaded and do not make a recommendation, therefore, because evasion of provisions tends to bring the law into disrepute. I wonder is there any information about how it is working.

I believe there are few public companies in the Six Counties and consequently the relevant provision has very limited application. If Deputy Byrne felt so strongly about the impropriety of this thing he should consider extending the remedy to private companies. Then perhaps we could think about it.

Would the Minister be prepared to do that ? I do not know whether it is an offer or a threat on the part of the Minister.

I think it would be quite wrong to debar any private company from lending to its controlling director. I am sorry the Minister has created such a dilemma for me. It would be quite in order for private companies. There is a very different set of circumstances which apply to public and private companies. Directors of public companies are in the role of quasi-trustees of their shareholders.

Are directors of private companies not in the same position ?

They are very substantial shareholders and in this country a director of a private company is a majority shareholder.

We must take more than the shareholders into account. The creditors of a company which was denuded of its assets by means of loans made available to a director would be in an unhappy position. They would have no right against the director as an individual, certainly not against his assets.

You try to stop a director of a company which he controls himself from drawing a loan. He will find some other way—perhaps of paying himself an exorbitant salary.

That is rather the same argument which the Committee put up. If you have it your way the dishonest director would still be able to find some way to manoeuvre round it.

I feel that policy in the past should meet the case. I do not think that we should specifically debar the board of a public company from considering an application from one of its members for a loan.

The basic difference between the Bill by which the Minister is standing and Deputy Byrne's amendment is that the Bill applies to all companies, approximately 10,000, whereas, Deputy Byrne's amendment would exclude more than 9,000 of these from any of the prohibitive provisions of Section 192.

Not necessarily at all.

You can have the two sections in.

But Section 192 would require amendment of some sort.

If you provide as in Amendment 67,

" . . . that nothing in this section shall apply—

(a) to anything done by a company which is for the time being a private company ";. . .

You could have the two sections. Section 192 would, of course, apply only to whatever type of loans are permissible. There are certain exclusion clauses from the prohibition of making loans. Loans would be permissible in certain circumstances. Section 192 would, of course, be intended to cover these loans. Under Deputy Byrne's amendment it would cover all loans to directors of private companies.

Deputy Byrne maintains that the Bill as it stands is constructed in such a way that you can ride through it. The situation of a company that wants to lend money to directors is strengthened by the proposed new section. This section seems to exclude the private company from applying under the provisions of Section 192.

It would not necessary.

He says Section 192 is imperfect. It leaves out private company. I am not in favour in the case of a private company where, in fact, one or two people own the whole company. For instance, A, B and C, father, son and daughter, set up a private company and want to protect it as a private company. I would press to have these provisions extended to them. If a private company was just a veneer for 40 or more people having a very substantial interest in the entire company and dealing with some important commodity or service, it should be covered. I take a different view in those circumstances. Almost a privately owned private company is one thing, but in the case of a large private company, which is both heavily capitalised and virtually a public company, there is something to be said for controls.

My amendment still retains Section 192 in respect of private companies. There is no clash either between my amendment and Section 192.

There is a clash with Section 192 as originally drafted which would need some amendment.

You have a prohibition in the case of public companies and disclosure in the case of private companies.

Does the Deputy wish to press the amendment ?

Would it be better to get some distillation of the section and the amendment in order to go some distance towards solving the problem?

We have not come to the stage when we press amendments because of our recommittal arrangements. If the Deputy feels strongly enough to press it at this stage, it would be a case for reconsidering it at recommittal stage.

I should be grateful to the Minister.

Deputy Byrne's amendment seeks to exclude a private company, to prevent the large private company getting exemption.

That is a problem which has cropped up on a number of occasions. I mentioned it already. It would be impossible for us to provide in legislation a distinction between the small and large private company.

I agree.

What are the abuses arising out of these loans ?

We have none that we know of. It is well known that, and I do not wish to criticise private companies, the affairs of public companies are, generally, conducted in a better way than those of private companies.

During the war a certain public company in Dublin, whose stocks depreciated tenfold by reason of scarcities, contracted to borrow money off the company, purchased shares in the company and raked off a very considerable sum.

Loans for shares are covered elsewhere. That is a serious abuse in its own right. A prohibition against loans to buy shares—is that not in the Bill ? Prohibition of the company to lend money to a director to buy shares is already covered.

The provision of financial assistance for the purchase of shares is provided for in a new Section 60 introduced by amendment, with certain safeguards.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Barr
Roinn