Special Committee Defence Bill, 1951 díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 11 Mar 1952

SECTION 16.

Captain Cowan

I move amendment No. 16:

In line 9, to insert after the word " Forces " the words " the numerical establishment of which shall not exceed such number of officers, non-commissioned officers and men as may be provided for in the estimates for the Department of Defence passed by Dáil Éireann for the year."

This is an important proposal. In practice, the Government can only raise forces to the strength provided in the Estimates, but the Bill does not limit them. My amendment proposes that limitation, that the Government can raise only the number of men provided for in the Estimate for the Department for the year.

Mr. Colley

Would that prevent the present recruiting campaign?

Chairman

Yes, if you were near establishment.

Mr. Traynor

I think the amendment is based on a misapprehension on the part of Deputy Cowan. It is not the number that is estimated: it is the amount of money. You might have a figure like 10,000 down. If you wish to exceed that number, provided the money is in the Estimate you can do so. It is not the number you are estimating for at all.

Mr. Colley

Deputy Cowan's amendment says " the numerical establishment of which shall not exceed" the numbers set out in the Estimate.

Chairman

Here is what would happen if the amendment were adopted. If there were a case such as we had a couple of years ago—where the Estimates provided for well under establishment and the Government subsequently during that year wanted to bring the Forces up to establishment—and if the amendment were part of the Bill, it would be necessary to have amending legislation to enable the Government to increase the number. I think this would be a very objectionable amendment.

Mr. Traynor

Actually it is the amount of money that you estimate for and, if the necessity should at any time arise and if the money was in the Estimate anywhere else, it could be utilised for the purpose of paying for the additional persons so recruited.

Mr. Colley

That is the present position?

Mr. Traynor

Yes.

Mr. Colley

If the amendment were accepted you would not be able to do that.

Mr. Traynor

I made the point to Deputy O'Higgins that you could exceed the numbers in the Estimate even if the money was not contained in the Estimate. You could always go for a Supplementary Estimate and through the medium of the Supplementary Estimate you could add whatever numbers you desired to reach.

Captain Cowan

I must say that I regret that I cannot just follow the reasons advanced against the amendment. I believe that the Government can only raise a Defence Force when authorised by law. This section authorises the Government to raise a Defence Force. Obviously there must be a limitation in the numbers that they can raise and that limitation is provided for in the Estimates each year. There is more in the Estimates than simply the amount of money. The Estimates specifically provide the number of generals, the number of colonels, the number of captains and the number of sergeants and corporals. That is always provided and it gives a bulk figure then of 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 or 12, whatever the number of thousands may be. The Estimates that are mentioned in my amendment are not the annual Estimates; they are the Estimates and Supplementary Estimates for the Department of Defence passed by Dáil Éireann for the year. It does not matter whether it is passed in the main or passed as a Supplementary Estimate—it is the Estimate for the year.

I believe that it is vital that the Government should not be authorised to raise a Defence Force larger than that provided specifically by law. I think that is a constitutional requirement and Section 16 places no limitation at all on the size of the force that may be raised by the Government. I think that the number of the force that can be raised by the Government must be limited by the Estimates passed annually or passed from time to time for the Department of Defence. I think there are two views of the Committee. The first view is that the Government can raise any size of force it likes under that provision. I think there should be a specific limitation to the numbers specifically provided for in the Estimates for the year by the Dáil.

Mr. Traynor

The Estimates are only estimates ; they do not bind you to figures ; they only bind you to an estimated amount of money which you can expend on defence and it is the amount of money that is at the head of the Estimate that is the thing that really counts. There is a peacetime establishment of 12,500. It is true that that would not be exceeded unless some urgent necessity arose and then the Government would have to arrive at a very considered decision in regard to any extension of that 12,500. The peacetime establishment up to which we are at the moment endeavouring to get is 12,500 and when that number is secured all that will happen is that we will endeavour to keep up the annual intake to the figure that will meet the probable outflow, so that the 12,500 establishment will be maintained more or less continuously.

The position is that the Estimates provide for a specific amount of money which may be spent on defence but the details given in the various subheads are only an indication of the manner in which it is proposed to spend that amount of money and are not binding. The Minister may exceed the number of officers, non-commissioned officers and men shown in the Estimates provided he is able to do so within the amount of money available. It is the money which is the real brake and which prevents the Minister from going very much outside the number shown on the subhead. That is the actual position and legally we have been informed that there is no constitutional requirement whatever that the maximum establishment of the Defence Force which is to be maintained in any particular year should be mentioned in legislation.

Captain Cowan

I feel that the Oireachtas should only authorise the Government to raise a Defence Force of the number which they provide for from year to year. The only way they can provide for that number is by the Estimates. The Estimates specifically provide that a certain number of officers, a certain number of N.C.O.s and a certain number of men will be provided for for that year. That is the force that the Government ought to be authorised to raise, and no larger. I would ask that the amendment be accepted. If it is not accepted I would ask that a vote be taken on the amendment.

Mr. Traynor

I cannot accept the amendment.

Mr. Colley

Is not the peacetime strength of the Army 12,500?

Mr. Brennan

Deputy Cowan wishes to leave it in the power of the Oireachtas to decide the strength of the Army. It is the Army Council who should know the establishment that would be required to defend the country, not the Oireachtas.

Mr. Colley

The last Government, for instance, did not see anything in keeping up the strength of the Army. They cut down to some extent on it. If a crisis occurred, if this amendment were accepted, you would not be able to increase your strength. That is as I see it. I do not think it would be a wise provision at all.

Amendment put.

The Committee divided: Tá 1; Níl 7.

Tá.

• Cowan, Peadar.

Níl.

• Minister for Defence.
• Davern, Michael J.
• Brennan, Thomas.
• Gallagher, Colm.
• Carter, Frank.
• Hilliard, Michael.
• Colley, Harry.

Amendment declared lost