Special Committee Defence Bill, 1951 díospóireacht -
Thursday, 27 Mar 1952

SECTION 104.

Mr. Traynor

I move amendment No. 105 :—

In sub-section (1), paragraph (b), line 47, page 53, before " he " to insert "or during a period during which reservists are called out on permanent service under Section 88."

Sub-section (1) (b) provides that the section, in so far as it prohibits Reserve officers from being members of local authorities, applies whenever an officer is called out at a time when reservists are out on permanent service under proclamation. There is, however, one other circumstance in which reservists may be called out on permanent service. They may be called out in limited numbers in anticipation of an emergency under Section 88. That is the section we discussed yesterday. It is desirable that officers called out at such a time should also be governed by this section, and the amendment, therefore, is merely to insert a reference to Section 88 in the definition.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Traynor

I move amendment No. 106 :—

In sub-section (2), paragraph (a), line 3, page 54, to delete " as " and substitute " or being."

This is a textual amendment which has been recommended by our legal advisers.

Amendment agreed to.

Captain Cowan

I move amendment No. 107 :—

In sub-section (3) to delete paragraph (a).

Paragraph (a) says :—

(a) A member of the Reserve Defence Force shall, during any period during which he is actively employed, be disqualified from being elected or co-opted or appointed or being a member of a local authority. . .

I want to put this to the Committee, and to the Minister particularly. Perhaps a member of the Reserve is a man who takes an interest in local affairs. He is so interested in them that he goes further and takes an interest in national affairs and becomes a member of the Local Defence Force. Now the local authorities are not political organisations. There have been efforts from time to time to try and divorce them from politics, not with a lot of success but in a general way. I am speaking as a member of the Dublin Corporation and of other local authorities within the meaning of this section. I should say that politics never enter into the discussions of the Dublin Corporation. A vacancy might arise during a period when the Reserve Defence Force is called out and for that vacancy a particular person who is out on the Reserve would be a most suitable man to be appointed. If he is not appointed, then somebody else is appointed and his chance of becoming a member of the local authority would be wiped out until the next local election. I do not think that that is right. It is not political activity. I do not say that he should be disqualified from being elected. I do say that you can probably meet the point which the Minister wants if he did not actively take part in the activities of the local authority while on permanent service. It is to meet the point of view of the Minister that I would go that far. I understand that Ministers of State who are members of local authorities have remained as members of local authorities while Ministers.

Chairman

It has happened.

Captain Cowan

I do not think it is right that a man who renders good service to the local community should be disqualified from being a member of a local authority just because he happens to be serving in the Forces on permanent service. I think the Minister would have a lot of sympathy with that. It is not politics ; it is a matter of local service. He might be back in a week or in a month, and it would be very unfair that he should be disqualified from being a member. I think the section should be put in such a way that he can be protected.

There is a further protection which might be given in regard to sub-section (b), to which I will come afterwards. He might have spent £500 to get elected. It costs nearly as much to be elected to the Dublin Corporation as to the Dáil. It would be very hard on a member, if he spent a considerable sum of money, fought an election campaign and was elected, if, because he is a member of the Reserve and called up for a week or a fortnight, he had to cease to be a member. Possibly a way out can be found by putting in a provision, not debarring him from becoming a member, but suspending his activities as a member during the period he is out on permanent service, and providing that if he is absent during the statutory period he would not be disqualified thereby. I put that to the Minister as something that is only fair to the members of the Reserve who are sufficiently public-spirited to become members of a local authority and in whom the people have such confidence as to elect them.

Chairman

Two cases may illustrate the position in regard to the Bill. There is nothing in the Bill to say that a member of the Reserve cannot go up for election as a T.D. For instance, take the 1943 or 1944 election. It happened that one member of the Reserve who was on permanent service left and contested the election and was elected. He got permission to do so. Under this Bill, he could not be barred.

Mr. Colley

Had he to leave before he went up ?

Chairman

He left the permanent service before he was elected. He got leave. In fact, as the law would be under this Bill, if an election occurred during a time of war or emergency an officer serving would have a right to contest that election. If he were elected he would forfeit his commission as laid down in the Bill. That is reasonable. By contrast, under this section an officer on permanent service might be able to force the law in his favour to the point of being able to contest an election for a local authority and, immediately he was elected, he would automatically have his election annulled. Therefore, you have the peculiar position that a Reserve officer on permanent service could be elected to the Dáil but is absolutely debarred from being elected to a local authority. That raises the question whether it should not be put on the same basis, that if he is elected he could get out of the Army and remain on the local authority. I do not know what the answer is.

Mr. Traynor

First of all, I should like to say this in regard to what Deputy Cowan said. There are two aspects of the matter. The first is that when a member of a Reserve is called out on permanent service he may be sent anywhere. He is unlikely, therefore, to be able to attend to his local authority duties, and it should not be open to him to represent that, since he has those duties, he should be facilitated in the matter of leave, free time, etc., to enable him to attend to them. It would also be difficult if pressure could be brought to bear on a Minister to allow such a person to serve in a particular place or appointment so that he could look after his local authority duties.

There is the other aspect. Local authorities are not, of their nature, political, but nobody will deny that political matters do feature largely in the activities of local authorities. A member of the Reserve out on permanent service is, to all intents and purposes, the same as a member of the Permanent Force. A member of the Permanent Force cannot be a member of a local authority and, in all the circumstances, it appears that the same should apply to a member of the Reserve out on permanent service. If I was a member of a local authority and the situation which Deputy Cowan has envisaged arose, I think I could see a way out. For instance, take Deputy Cowan himself. Supposing he were called out on permament service. I suggest that he could resign from the local authority and that some supporter of his could be co-opted. If the Deputy were released from permanent service after a short time the question of his return to the council could be got over by the resignation of the individual who was co-opted and the Deputy being himself co-opted.

Captain Cowan

He might decide to leave the party.

Mr. Traynor

It should be possible to overcome it in some such way. I think it would be desirable that we should not permit members of local authorities any more than we would the others ——

Chairman

We are agreeable. The essential difference is this : that a man can go up and be elected a T.D. and it is his commission that goes. In this case it is membership of the local authority that goes automatically. Subject to the grave danger which I shall mention, at first blush I suggest meeting it by giving a man the option of resigning his commission or resigning his seat on the local authority. There are, however, many local authorities and any officer on permanent service who wants to get out has only to get busy engineering his election to a local authority and he can get out of the Army. That is an abuse which could occur. He might be only elected to the local town council but that would secure his exemption. That is the grave danger you are up against I agree that Deputy Cowan, as usual has a good point in this.

Mr. Traynor

If that situation arose and if a man had a commission, I think he would prefer to retain his commission and give his services as an officer rather than resign his commission and continue as a member of a local authority.

Mr. Hilliard

The local authority would not fill the vacancy until the end of the statuttory period.

Captain Cowan

That is what I am suggesting. I think you have the correct approach. My view is that if a person is a member of a local authority and also in the Reserve, he can go up for training and do everything all the time until called up on permanent service. A man who is a member of the Reserve and is also a member of a local authority is serving the community in two ways. In case of permanent service, his prior duty would clearly be to the State. I want to preserve his membership of the local authority and at the same time take him from active participation in local authority work. In other words, he would not be entitled while on permanent service to engage in local authority work or to attend meetings. But, if that lasted beyond the statutory period of six months for disqualification, that that disqualification period would not operate in the case of a man serving the State as an officer on permanent service. It would show the high opinion in which he was held when he finished his service if he was allowed to resume his membership. It is the same as a member of a local authority who gets sick. We have had the case of a Deputy who was a member and who was ill. At the end of the statutory period we had a letter from him asking for permission to resume his duties and we gave it to him. I ask the Minister to consider that.

Mr. Traynor

Would that not have to be done by the Department of Local Government ?

Captain Cowan

We can do it in this Bill.

Mr. Brennan

Is it necessary ?

Mr. Traynor

If it is not necessary it is all right. But if it is necessary to bring in legislation it is not by means of this Bill that it can be done.

Captain Cowan

You can do it.

Chairman

You are barring him absolutely.

Mr. Brennan

If a member of a local authority, owing to sickness or for any other reason, is absent during the statutory period and sends in a satisfactory explanation he is allowed to continue as a member.

Captain Cowan

As was done in the case I have mentioned. The Minister is putting him out of the local authority and we want to keep him in the local authority.

Mr. Traynor

We have to face facts. The man is a reservist and is called up. It is a certainty he is not going to be kept in his own area.

Captain Cowan

I do not believe he should be permitted to attend his meetings or engage in the activities of the council.

Chairman

You could give him some exemption. It would have to be discussed with the Department of Local Government. There is an argument there.

Mr. Traynor

Deputy Cowan has said that State service is paramount.

Chairman

As the modern trend goes, if our defences are properly organised and we had to face modern war some local authorities would assume a very important place in the sphere of decentralisation of government and regional organisation. Membership of a local authority in such circumstances would be as nationally important as membership of the Dáil itself.

Mr. Traynor

If it could be proved that the man's services would be of greater value to a local authority in those circumstances, I am certain exemption would be given.

Captain Cowan

It might be too late.

Mr. Hilliard

This deals with election to a local authority during the period in which a man is called up. It deals with a man who is only entering. The amendment deals with a man who is already a member.

Chairman

The next sub-section deals with it. The principle is the same.

Captain Cowan

In 104 (1) you could have a man who is a member of a local authority and whom it is intended to appoint as a member of a vocational education committee, or co-opt him on it. That cannot be done during the period he is in the force.

Mr. Hilliard

He would not be available at the time.

Chairman

What about local elections that might happen ?

Captain Cowan

Take Dublin Corporation. I had to fight an election there. There are 45 members. There are about 25 T.D.s for Dublin and it is almost as hard to get into the Dublin Corporation as it is to get into the Dáil. The fight is a very tough one. You might have a young fellow, a very keen member of the L.D.F. a member of the Reserve, who is elected to the corporation. He may have ambitions to become a member of the Dáil or Seanad but also anxious to render service to the country. It is a terrible thing on him if, after fighting an election, having expended a good deal of money and time and effort, just because he is a good enough citizen to serve the State in case of emergency, you say he must resign from the corporation. That is very unfair. I say he need not attend meetings and the Minister can provide that during the period he will not attend meetings of local authorities or engage in such activities.

Mr. Hilliard

That is all right at (b), but we are discussing (a).

Chairman

(a) would apply. If you had an election it might be the re-election of a sitting member.

Mr. Traynor

Deputy Hilliard's point is that in (a) we are preventing a man from standing for election. In (b) we are discussing a different point.

Chairman

I am inclined to agree with Deputy Hilliard and maybe he is coming to a case which is very near the point. I sympathise with a man who has already been elected.

Mr. Hilliard

This section disqualifies a man already elected. A man not attending a local authority has six months under the Local Government Act to remain a member.

Chairman

It raises the whole point whether you should disqualify local councillors as you do T.Ds.

Mr. Traynor

As regards (b) we will take it up with Local Government as to whether we could insert something in the section to say that such a man shall " be indefinitely released from service on the local authority ". We will try to meet the case.

Mr. Hilliard

I would be inclined to put a limitation on the length of time—to the subsequent election or for 12 months.

Captain Cowan

It is not something obnoxious to be a member of a local authority. Everybody knows that it is very seldom that different political party matters arise there—except in some outlandish places. If the Minister says this man cannot engage in the activities of the local authority, the man would be bound to obey that, as an officer. The important point is that the man might be called up for more than six months and the local authority might not consider it a valid excuse, if they wanted to get rid of him ; and I would like to see him get protection under this Act, at least for a limited period.

Chairman

The Minister will look into it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Mr. Traynor

I move amendment No. 108 :—

In sub-section (3), paragraph (a), line 11, to delete " as " and substitute " or being ".

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 109 not moved.

Section 104, as amended, agreed to.

The Committee rose at 9.45 p.m. until 4 p.m. on Tuesday next.