Special Committee Defence Bill, 1951 díospóireacht -
Thursday, 27 Mar 1952

SECTION 103.

Captain Cowan

I move amendment No. 103 :—

In sub-section (3) to delete paragraph (a).

Section 103 provided for the prohibition of political and secret societies. It says :—

" A member of the Permanent Defence Force shall not join, or be a member of, or subscribe to, any political organisation or society or any secret society whatsoever."

With that there will be general agreement. It carries the law as it stands. Sub-section (2) says :—

" A member of the Reserve Defence Force shall not join, or be a member of, or subscribe to any secret society whatsoever."

I will deal with that when I come to the section because I have not an amendment down to it. Sub-section (3) says :—

" The Minister may by regulations :

" (a) prohibit officers of the Reserve Defence Force who are, during a period during which a proclamation authorising the calling out of reservists on permanent service is in force, for the time being continuously engaged in military service or duties for which as officers of the Reserve Defence Force they are liable, from participating in specified political activities, and

"(b) prohibit reservists who stand called out on permanent service from participating in those specified political activities."

Now I want this section clarified. Most men who join the Reserve, or are in the Reserve, are members of political parties. I would say that a number of them are members of political parties. The Minister, when they are called out under this, may make regulations to prohibit them engaging in certain political activities. That may be desirable or it may not. I am putting down opposition to the section for the purpose of getting the Minister to clarify it and to learn what his intention was in regard to it.

Mr. Traynor

Well, it has always been admitted, and it was admitted in the course of a recent discussion on another section of this Bill, that a member of the Reserve has the right to be a member of any political organisation except when he is out on permanent service—that is the exception —and that he can hold the highest, or most important, position in the political organisation to which he belongs. These are rights with which there can, and should, be no interference or restriction until the man comes out on permanent service. Even then, since he will be going back to civil life after a period of Army service, which may be long or short, he should not be compelled to sever his connections with the political organisation completely, say to the extent of resigning his membership. I do not think anybody would regard that as reasonable. But it is equally obvious that he cannot, while on permanent service, be allowed to be actively associated with his political organisation in a sense which would be incompatible with his temporary full-time membership of the armed forces. Now, it is difficult to lay down any hard and fast rules as to the extent to which association with the organisation should be allowed. It will depend on the particular circumstances, and for that reason we have thought it wise to leave the matter to be dealt with by the Minister by regulations in the light of the circumstances as they exist at a particular time. I think that is the wisest way of dealing with the matter, and I do not favour the Deputy's amendments which would result in no provision at all existing to cover the matter.

Captain Cowan

I did not put down this amendment for the purpose of pressing it but rather for the purpose of clarification.

Mr. Traynor

We have had Reservists actually contesting elections, as you know.

Captain Cowan

I did it myself, unsuccessfully.

Mr. Traynor

Those who were unsuccessful just carried on in the Reserve.

Captain Cowan

I only wanted the Minister to clarify the position.

The words " political parties " and " political activities " have a very wide meaning. A person might be, as I know, a member of an organisation that would have for its purpose the formation in this State of some type of co-operative organisation. Now, that is a harmless sort of activity to be engaged in. It is undoubtedly political, but it is not Party political. I take it that the section will only apply to politics in the narrow sense, that is, Party politics.

Mr. Traynor

Membership of a co-operative society ?

Captain Cowan

No. He might be advocating at meetings in this country the setting up of an organisation something like they have in Portugal. He might want to establish in this country a vocational system of organisation. Now, that undoubtedly is a political activity, but in my view it is a very harmless political activity that would not come within the Minister's ban. The Minister would only be concerned with active political Parties.

Mr. Traynor

I was in the peculiar position on one occasion, as Minister, when I had to deal simultaneously with the cases of three separate officers, one Fianna Fáil, another Fine Gael and the third belonging to the Labour Party. I was in the happy position that everybody concerned agreed with me that none of them should be allowed to remain in fulltime service and at the same time contest an election. They had to resign.

Amendment No. 103, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 104 not moved.

Question proposed: " That Section 103 stand part of the Bill."

Captain Cowan

This section provides that " a member of the Reserve Defence Force shall not join, or be a member of, or subscribe to any secret society whatsoever ". Now, clearly, there are some people in the Reserve —I should imagine there are, and maybe perhaps they are in important positions in it—who would be members of a society like the Knights of Columbanus. Now, I do not know, but that is alleged to be a secret society.

Mr. Traynor

In the definition section you will see this definition of " secret society." the expression " secret society " means an association, society or other body the members of which are required by the regulations thereof to take or enter into, or do in fact take or enter into, an oath, affirmation, declaration or agreement not to disclose the proceedings or some part of the proceedings of the association, society or body.

Captain Cowan

Does that bind a member of the Reserve not to be a member of a secret society ?

Mr. Traynor

Yes, since he has taken an oath not to subscribe to or be a member of a secret society. As long as he remains a member of the Reserve, he is bound by that.

Mr. Brennan

Would that include members of the F.C.A. ? I should say that 80 per cent. of them were never members of the permanent force.

Mr. Traynor

They are members of the Reserve and they take the oath in the same form, as regards membership of secret societies, as members of the permanent force.

Captain Cowan

I do not know of any secret societies operating in this country at the moment. It is alleged that there are two, the Knights of Columbanus and the Freemasons.

Question put, and agreed to.