Special Committee Pigs and Bacon Bill, 1934 díospóireacht -
Thursday, 4 Apr 1935

SECTION 21.

Minister for Agriculture

I beg to move amendment No. 13 :—

Before sub-section (3) to insert a new sub-section as follows :—

(3) Where—

(a) premises are used exclusively for the business of slaughtering pigs ; and

(b) other premises situate within one mile from such first-mentioned premises are used for the manufacture of bacon from the carcases of pigs slaughtered at such first-mentioned premises ;

both such premises shall be deemed for the purposes of the immediately preceding sub-section to be one set of premises.

There are cases that I have come across where the curing premises are separated from the slaughtering premises and, as the Bill stands, I am afraid it would be impossible to licence them. This amendment is put in to remedy the position. Right through this Bill there is a principle that from the time a carcase arrives it cannot leave the premises unless as bacon. This is to legalise the existence of a factory of that kind as being the one set of premises. There is at least one case that I have in mind and it would have to be covered in this way.

Amendment agreed to.

Question proposed : " That Section 21, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Deputy Dillon

In sub-section 1, paragraphs (a) and (b) set out two different types of licence, one is a curing licence and the other is a curing and slaughtering licence. Sub-section 2 provides that every application for a licence shall (a) be made in the prescribed form and contain the prescribed particulars and (b) relate to one set of premises only. Does that mean that the same premises cannot be licensed as a curing licence and as a curing and slaughtering licence ?

Minister for Agriculture

A curing and slaughtering licence would be sufficient in that case. You could not have on the same premises both a curing and a curing and slaughtering licence.

Deputy Dillon

I take it a curing licence envisages a man going to a market, buying carcases, carrying them in and curing them ?

Minister for Agriculture

That is right.

Deputy Dillon

Let us suppose that there is a curer in Monaghan and he is buying carcases and live pigs. Is he to be stopped from doing that in future and, if so, why ?

Minister for Agriculture

He can get a curing and slaughtering licence.

Deputy Dillon

Does that entitle him to cure the non-factory purchased carcase and the factory manufactured carcase ? Does the curing and slaughtering licence entitle him to cure a pig slaughtered on the premises and a pig purchased in the market ?

Minister for Agriculture

Sub-section (2) of Section 22 sets out :

Every curing and slaughtering licence shall be expressed and operate to authorise the holder of such licence to carry on in the premises specified in such licence, so long as such licence is in force, the business of manufacturing bacon and also the business of slaughtering pigs.

Deputy Dillon

Sub-section (1) mentions the business of manufacturing bacon from the carcases of pigs, other than pigs slaughtered in such premises.

Minister for Agriculture

Sub-section (2) of Section 22 says that the licence shall operate to authorise the carrying on of the business of manufacturing bacon and also the business of slaughtering pigs, so long as the licence is in force. I think that covers that point.

Deputy Belton

I think it is fully covered.

Minister for Agriculture

Yes, I think it makes it fairly plain.

Deputy Dillon

Is the Minister clearly satisfied that a man who gets a curing and slaughtering licence can cure the carcases of pigs bought in the market and can also bring in pigs and slaughter them on the premises ?

Minister for Agriculture

Yes.

Deputy Haslett

If I have permission, I should like to mention one point. Sub-section (a) of Section 21 relates to what is commonly called the Northern system—the dead pork market and the curer's licence. Under the Fresh Meat Bill a rather curious situation cropped up. Before the Fresh Meat Bill came into operation a curer or such curer of dead pork was able to ship his fresh meat—that is, as described as offal, such as the griskin, the spare ribs, etc.—to the British market. Since the Fresh Meat Bill came into operation there was no way of dealing with that because there had been no veterinary inspection. Now there will be veterinary inspection of the carcase of a pig. Will that also carry with it a similar certificate to what is being issued now in Northern Ireland ? I mean, that these were the offals of an inspected pig and can be certified in the same way as fresh meat ?

Minister for Agriculture

I think that the difficulty of the Deputy is in connection with the question of antemortem examination. The Fresh Meat Bill is different from the Pigs and Bacon Bill.

Deputy Haslett

It was at the instance of the British authorities that we had that inspection. The British authorities are satisfied with the post-mortem certification of the pigs. We need not quarrel with them about that, because I may tell the Committee that it has been a serious menace to our business because, at times, the Dublin market is literally flooded with such meat, and there is no outlet for it, whereas there is a fairly good market for it across the water. There is a good deal of money in that end of it and, in fact, the price of pork in the Northern market has depended largely on how they were able to dispose of their fresh meat.

Minister for Agriculture

I am afraid that our own Fresh Meat Act would have to be amended before we could allow it to go out as fresh meat without ante-mortem examination. Accordingly, to do what the Deputy requires would require an amendment of the Fresh Meat Act.

Deputy Dillon

Did that Act require inspection in respect of offals ?

Minister for Agriculture

No ; everything such as liver, and so on, is defined as fresh meat for the purposes of this Act.

Deputy Belton

I take it that the offals to which Deputy Haslett is referring are subject neither to ante nor post-mortem examination.

Minister for Agriculture

Not at present.

Deputy Belton

Will they be subject under this Bill ?

Minister for Agriculture

Yes.

Deputy Belton

All this Bill will deal with will be the carcases ?

Deputy Haslett

This does not relate to livers but to spare ribs, the griskin, and so on.

Deputy Belton

If that situation cannot be met, then the practice of selling dead pork will have to be stopped.

Deputy Dillon

May I suggest, Sir, that this discussion as to ante-mortem or post-mortem examination is slightly irrelevant in this connection.

Deputy Haslett

It may be, Deputy, but I qualified it by asking the permission of the Chairman, and I do not see any other place to bring this matter in.

Minister for Agriculture

I suggest that Deputy Haslett might see us about this matter at another time and apart from this Bill. I am not quite sure whether it is relevant in this connection.

Deputy Haslett

My point is that the British are taking it all from the North in the same way.

Minister for Agriculture

I do not know if they would take it from us.

Deputy Dillon

I suggest, Sir, that Deputy Haslett's point has to do with an amendment of the Fresh Meat Act.

Deputy Haslett

I have to differ with the Deputy, because it does not operate here at all.

Chairman

I take it, Deputy Haslett, that you are taking the matter up with the Minister and I am sure that he will be willing to discuss it with you.

Deputy Haslett

Yes.

Section 21, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 22 and 23 agreed to.