Special Committee Pigs and Bacon Bill, 1934 díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Apr 1935

SECTION 65.

(1) On and after the appointed day it shall not be lawful to export bacon from Saorstát Eireann unless such bacon is exported direct from licensed premises.

Deputy Dillon

I move amendment No. 37 :—

Before Section 65 to insert a new section as follows :—

(1) On and after the appointed day the Minister may by order under this Act prohibit or restrict the exports of cold stored bacon from Saorstát Eireann by any licence.

(2) If any person exports bacon in contravention of this order the person exporting such bacon shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding £100.

This amendment is to substitute for Section 65 a new section which, it seemed to me, would implement the Minister's purposes more effectively than the section which stands in the Bill. It is dependent, however, on the Minister's interpretation of the present section, and I should be glad to hear from him what purpose he had in view when he drafted Section 65. Is it for the purpose of preventing the export of cold stored bacon ?

Minister for Agriculture

Oh, no. That was not the intention, because we had intended, as the Bill was first drafted, that the cold stored bacon might be brought back to the licensed premises and exported therefrom. I do not think it would be advisable for us to absolutely prohibit the export of cold stored bacon. As far as I can find out, there is not very much of that trade done. There is a little of it, however, and a curer might find it hard sometimes to fill his quota and might have to fall back on a small quantity of cold stored bacon so as to make up the quota. I think it would be rather harsh to absolutely prohibit the export of cold stored bacon, and if the Deputy thought we had that in mind in the drafting of the Bill, I can assure him that it is not so.

Deputy Dillon

What is the Minister's purpose in Section 65 ?

Minister for Agriculture

We have a similar section in practically all these Acts. The object is to prevent a dealer from coming in between and taking over from a factory and then exporting. We want to have all exports direct from the factory so that we can have our veterinary inspection and be in a position to say that the article is the best possible. In that way, it is under control from the time it leaves the premises.

Deputy Belton

Is there much or any trade now done in the export of bacon by people who are not curers ?

Minister for Agriculture

No. There is none to Great Britain at any rate. The whole quota to Great Britain goes to the curers.

Deputy Belton

Before those quotas came in, were there any people in the business of exporting who were not curers ?

Minister for Agriculture

Not in the regular way. There were a few people exporting such articles as pigs heads and so on but that was all.

Deputy Belton

I feel that a merchant of that description is very useful for the home trade, but I do not know about the export trade.

Deputy Dillon

To regularise the position, I withdraw my amendment because my amendment falls when the Minister explains the purpose of this section. However, I do not agree out of hand with the section.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Minister for Agriculture

I move amendment No. 38 :—

To delete sub-section (1) and substitute the following sub-section :—

(1) On and after the appointed day it shall not be lawful for any person to export bacon from Saorstát Eireann unless—

(a) such bacon is exported direct from licensed premises, or

(b) such bacon is exported direct from a cold store to which it was consigned from licensed premises, or

(c) such bacon is exported in hermetically sealed containers.

This will enable a curer to export bacon from a licensed premises or from a cold store. It means that the curer need not take it back to his own premises, but send it direct from the cold store. Thirdly, as I explained already, there is just a small trade in canned hams. That is principally a tropical trade and, therefore, we provide for export in hermetically sealed containers. There is no reason why we should interfere with that. It is not done by curers. It is done, to a large extent, by one firm of exporters.

Deputy Haslett

The Minister stated a moment ago that a curer might want to take bacon from a cold store to fill a quota. Would it be possible for him to take somebody else's bacon from a cold store to fill a quota ?

Minister for Agriculture

A curer can take bacon from another curer under the Bill.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Deputy Murphy

I move amendment No. 39 :—

At the end of the section to insert a new sub-section as follows :—

(3) The sending by a private person of a quantity of bacon not exceeding 7 lbs. in weight to any place outside Saorstát Eireann shall not be an offence under this Act if it can be shown to the satisfaction of the court that no charge is made for the bacon so carried forward or consigned.

This amendment seeks to provide for an eventuality that might be regarded as an offence under the Bill as it stands. I do not think there is any principle involved in it.

Minister for Agriculture

I think the amendment is a reasonable one. The Deputy, I think, is referring to sending a small present. That would be all right, but there may be a difficulty owing to the quota. There is no reason, however, why we should not accept the amendment and tell a person sending such a parcel that he will have to take a chance; that he is not doing anything illegal under the Act, but that it is possible the British may seize the parcel and say that there was no quota certificate. I shall accept the principle of the amendment and introduce an amendment on the Report Stage, probably increasing the amount to 14 lbs.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed : " That Section 65, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Deputy Dillon

This difficulty arises under the section. Suppose bacon is consigned from a licensed premises or cold store and reaches a port. As the Bill stands, it would be impossible for the curer to stop the bacon at the port and divert it to another consignee, because diverting it at the port would constitute export as from the port and not from the licensed premises. If the only object the Minister has in mind is to prevent wholesalers setting up to distribute bacon to foreign markets, surely the quota regulations provide against that so far as the British market is concerned. If a wholesaler sets up for the purpose of distributing bacon to Morocco or Peru, we ought to have no objection to his venturing in these markets, if the curers who can dispose of their supplies in Great Britain do not care to enter into it. It might be that some enterprising individual, who had a special acquaintance with Spain or some continental country, would try to exploit that personal connection of his own by shipping bacon there, but as the Bill stands he will be prevented. Why should we prevent him ? I see no reason for it. There is no danger of queering the pitch in Great Britain, because the Minister has the distribution of the British quota and has clearly expressed his intention of confining that to curers.

Minister for Agriculture

The quotas may not last from what we have read lately.

Deputy Dillon

It will be quite easy then for the Minister to mend his hand. He will be faced with a new situation if he has to control the industry in the absence of quotas.

Deputy Belton

If the quotas do not last, does not that strengthen Deputy Dillon's argument ? Then you can flood the English market as well as developing a foreign market, if any one was speculative enough.

Deputy Dillon

In any case, surely we ought to be guided by the principle that we are desirous of interfering with ordinary trade no more than is necessary to protect the interests of the industry as a whole and arbitrarily to exclude anyone from dealing in one of our principal agricultural products seems to be going a very long distance when there seems to be no very good reason for it.

Deputy Belton

Your idea is that if one or more speculators get together and say they will send a ship load of Irish bacon to any other country outside Great Britain, it should not be illegal for them to do that ?

Deputy Dillon

Quite.

Deputy Belton

That is worth considering.

Minister for Agriculture

I want to be clear as to what is meant. Does the Deputy think that we should be prevented by the Bill from allowing any person, other than a bacon curer, to build up a market, say in Morocco ?

Deputy Dillon

Yes.

Minister for Agriculture

I think perhaps the Deputy is right, but, on the other hand, we ought to know at least what is going on. I wonder would the Deputy be satisfied if I were to add to my amendment which has been passed a sub-section (d) " Exporters licensed by the Minister "? That is, that we could licence an exporter, apart from those other classes, in special circumstances. I think it is quite obvious that if a man said he could export a couple of cwts. per week, and that he did not want to give the business to a curer as it was he discovered the market, any Minister will say, " All right I shall give you a licence under these circumstances."

Deputy Dillon

That is all right in principle, but would the curers not turn up their noses ? If, for instance, a trade in bacon were developed in Morocco, and a considerable amount of bacon was being taken out of the Irish pool, weekly or monthly, and that that trade collapsed, would not the whole bacon industry here be thrown into a terrible state ?

Minister for Agriculture

Yes these are things that will have to be taken into consideration. If a trade was built up that was going to be lost in six months' time, what would we do with our surplus ?

Deputy Belton

We are not concerned with the speculators, as they take the risk, but the industry would be affected by that surplus production for which you would have no outlet.

Minister for Agriculture

That is why I think there should be a certain amount of control. The Minister will have to be satisfied that there is going to be a trade that is worth building up taking everything into consideration.

Deputy Belton

The Deputy is right in principle, that there should be freedom to do it.

Deputy Dillon

I am prepared to accept the Minister's proposal that he should add a paragraph (d): " Or any exporter licensed by the Minister." I withdraw my opposition to the section on the understanding that the Minister will introduce on the Report Stage a new paragraph (d) to provide for licensed exporters.

Question put and agreed to .