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Gnáthamharc

Irish Red Cross.

Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 24 February 2010

Wednesday, 24 February 2010

Ceisteanna (13, 14)

Jimmy Deenihan

Ceist:

62 Deputy Jimmy Deenihan asked the Minister for Defence the number of complaints and concerns about governance and management issues at the Irish Red Cross brought to his attention since 2007; if his assistance was sought to deal with these issues; the actions he took to deal with these complaints; if complaints focused on the actions or inactions of any of his nominees to the central council; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9540/10]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Brian O'Shea

Ceist:

63 Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Minister for Defence the reason for the continuing delay in the appointment of a new chairperson to the Irish Red Cross; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9379/10]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (15 píosaí cainte)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 62 and 63 together.

The Irish Red Cross Society is an autonomous body, established by the Irish Red Cross Society Order 1939 pursuant to the Red Cross Act 1938. The society is an independent charitable organisation with full powers to manage and administer its affairs through its governing body, the central council. Membership of the central council is by way of appointment by the Government or by election in accordance with the rules of the society.

The issue of governance has been the subject of consideration by a temporary working group in the society since February 2008. The chairman of the temporary working group presented the findings to the central council of the Irish Red Cross Society at a meeting held at the end of November 2009. The report was received in the Department of Defence at the end of January 2010. Officials in the Department of Defence met recently with officials in the Irish Red Cross Society to discuss the contents of the report and the implications of the recommendations arising from the report.

One of the proposals emanating from the report relates to the appointment to the position of chairperson of the society. In accordance with Article 9 of the Irish Red Cross Society Order 1939, the chairman of the Irish Red Cross Society shall be a member of the central council and shall be nominated by the president of the society. The Red Cross Act 1944 provides that the President of Ireland shall by virtue of her office be president of the society. The Government has not yet put forward a name to the President to replace Mr. David Andrews who retired from the position of chairperson on 31 December 2009. In the interim, the vice chairman of the society acts as chairman.

The contents of the governance report and the likely and consequential impact on both primary and secondary legislation of the findings of the report will be the subject of interdepartmental and inter-agency discussion. These discussions will involve the Departments of the Taoiseach, Foreign Affairs and Defence, the Irish Red Cross Society and the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies. Thereafter, the Minister for Defence will bring before Government any statutory changes deemed necessary.

In June 2007, a letter from staff members to the chairman about internal society matters was circulated to members of the central council, one of whom is an official from my Department. The Minister also received an anonymous letter in October 2008 from a person purporting to be a member of the central council of the Irish Red Cross Society, who was concerned about governance and procedures within the society. In March 2009, the Minister for Defence received correspondence from a member of the central council who informed the Minister of her decision to resign from the council of the society. In the letter, the council member expressed concerns about governance, accountability and transparency issues within the society. The issues raised in the aforementioned correspondence are wide ranging and are primarily matters which should be resolved internally by the society.

In nominating persons to the central council, the Government considers that it is highly desirable that the society should have on its governing body professional people with a wide variety of knowledge and expertise, gained through work experience in both the public and private sector and volunteer experience with the society. The Minister for Defence is anxious to ensure that all his dealings with the society are conducted in accordance with the society's basic principle of independence from Government.

The problems of the Irish Red Cross Society are systemic and appear to be escalating. It is not today or yesterday that these problems were made public. In 1999, a group of Irish Red Cross Society employees went public on RTE about them. That is a long time ago. In the period since then, five secretaries general have retired or resigned. In an international rating of Red Cross Societies across the world, the Irish Red Cross Society was given a mark of four, with one being the best and five the worst. Does the Minister not consider it a cause for concern that in the past six months three Government appointees and one Government employee have resigned from the Irish Red Cross Society? They are distinguished people: Mr. David Andrews, Judge Rory McCabe, barrister Ms Jenny Bulbulia and a highly respected civil servant whom all Members have encountered in the course of his work, Mr. John Roycroft. This is surely worthy of investigation. I call on the Taoiseach, who is now the acting Minister for Defence, to initiate such an investigation immediately. It could be conducted by a high ranking official of his Department or of the Department of Defence, but it must be done.

Before I was asked to take these questions I was already aware of some of the issues Deputy Deenihan has mentioned. The issue of Government participation in the running of the society was last raised in 1996 by the president of the International Committee of the Red Cross. It was subsequently raised with the society directly by the International Committee of the Red Cross. The matter was referred back to the Irish Red Cross Society to bring forward any proposals it considered necessary for consideration. No such proposals were received from the Irish Red Cross Society on foot of that referral. Any proposals for the reorganisation of the governance and management arrangements of the Irish Red Cross Society are a matter for the society in the first instance. The issue of the appointment of a secretary general to the society has been raised. I understand that the former secretary general, who was on secondment from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, has returned to that Department. It is now a matter for the society to decide how that position is to be filled. There are issues and I will raise them with the Taoiseach.

I have raised this issue on many occasions. I am continuing to receive a considerable number of representations. The Irish Red Cross is an important organisation and is part of our national life. It has contributed to projects overseas and at home. I understand quite a number of young people are being recruited into it. The continuing bad publicity is not helping matters. I understand the review group report on the governance of the organisation stated the society's general council would be replaced by an elected general assembly and that a chairperson would be elected by the general assembly. I do not know if a decision has been taken on that matter, in the context of the legislation which must come before the House. My concern is that there is a need for a chairperson who can do a job and grasp the issues which have to be addressed in the society. No matter how good the person is, unless the governance framework is in place this cannot happen. It seems to me that what the Minister of State outlined, namely, the number of consultations which are taking place, that this process will go on forever. That is not good enough. This matter needs to be urgently addressed.

It is important that the relationship between the Government and the society is clearly stated. The order establishing the society sets out its primary objects and powers which include acting, as Deputy O'Shea said, as a voluntary aid society in times of war and peace. The 1938 Act permits payment to the society by way of grants. The society has certain rights under the Geneva Convention and the Members of the House understand what they are. The Minister for Defence has no responsibility for the day-to-day running of the organisation. In terms of addressing staffing issues, there is no role for the Minister. It is one which much be addressed in the normal employer-employee relationship between the Irish Red Cross and its staff. However, as we are all aware, many organisations are currently faced with financial difficulties and the society is no different. As an employer it must consider all options in order to maintain its financial viability. To that end, I have no doubt it will consider all remedial steps it considers necessary, in terms of minimising staffing costs. On the appointment of a chairman, as I said in my initial reply while no nomination has yet been brought forward by the Minister for Defence to the Government, it can be anticipated that it is a matter which will receive the urgent attention of the new Minister.

I wish the previous Minister the best of luck in his future in Limerick. I am not taking issue with the Minister of State; he has read replies which are prepared for him. However, I take issue with the previous Minister when he told us he could not get involved. He was incorrect in his assertion that he or the Government could not get involved. That is why I went to the trouble of looking up the Red Cross Act 1938, which clearly states the Government can get involved. Section 1(2) states:

The Government may by the establishment order make provision in relation to all or any of the following matters, that is to say:—

(a) the powers of the Society;

(b) the organization of the Society;

(c) the management and administration of the affairs of the Society by a governing body

The Minister or the Government has the right, under legislation, to get involved. The Geneva Convention has been used as a excuse not to get involved, but it does not prevent the Government or Minister from getting involved.

I am sure the Minister of State will agree that a large amount of Government funding is involved, some €960,000. The main support of the Irish Red Cross is the Government. Surely, that behoves the Minister or Government to ensure the money concerned is spent properly and there is proper governance in the Irish Red Cross in order to ensure the money is spent properly. I ask the Minister of State to clarify the provisions in the Act. He raised the issue.

The Deputy has made his point.

There may be a note——

Please, let the Minister of State reply.

——to clarify why we cannot intercede, based on the provisions in the Act.

The 1939 order, which is pursuant to the Red Cross Act 1938, sets out the basis on which the society shall be governed. It provides that there shall be a central council which elects the powers of the society, organises the society and controls and manages the affairs of the society. Membership of the central council is by way of an appointment by the Government or election in accordance with the rules of the society. The central council, in turn, elects, on an annual basis, an executive committee which normally meets ten times a year. It is quite clear, as I read it——

I have the Act here.

——that the role of the Minister is very much circumscribed by that. It is true that a figure of €951,000 was paid in 2009 to the society. The Minister is of the view that the method of governance of the society and its relationship with the Government is one which is circumscribed by the founding legislation.

I ask the Minister of State to convey our concerns to the Taoiseach, who is the acting Minister for Defence. It is reported a document was prepared by the Department which showed the accounts for the year ending 30 September had a domestic deficit of €650,000. The problem we have is the organisation is in drift. There are those who say the recommendations in the internal review group report do not go far enough. This must be caught by the scruff of the neck. The longer this matter drifts, the more damage is done to a very important national organisation.

The Government, which is the acting Minister, is acutely conscious of the need for good governance in all organisations, including the Irish Red Cross. I am certain measures will be taken to ensure whatever levels of compliance are required will be adhered to.

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