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School Patronage

Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 6 May 2010

Thursday, 6 May 2010

Ceisteanna (2, 3)

Ruairí Quinn

Ceist:

2 Deputy Ruairí Quinn asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills if she will establish, without prejudice, a national forum on patronage in primary schools, as suggested by the Catholic Archbishop of Dublin; if her attention has been drawn to the fact that the Catholic Church is the patron of 92% of all existing 3,175 ordinary primary schools in this State; when she will act upon her recent public comments and seek the input and views of all relevant stakeholders with a view to agreeing to the orderly restructuring of the existing pattern of patronage; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [18479/10]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Brian Hayes

Ceist:

4 Deputy Brian Hayes asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills if she will provide a list of the ten areas in which she is considering a possible hand-over of primary schools from the Catholic Church to the State; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [18574/10]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (35 píosaí cainte)

I propose to answer Questions Nos. 2 and 4 together.

I agree that the issue of patronage and governance of our primary schools is important. In recent times the rapid pace of social and demographic change is reflected in a radically altered and more diverse society from which our school communities are drawn. Irish society will continue to change at pace in the years to come and our education system must therefore continue to adapt and change to reflect this.

Our system of patronage has demonstrated a capacity to facilitate change and evolution. Historically, plurality simply meant schools differentiated by denomination under denominational patronage. In recent decades, the patronage system proved itself able to support the establishment of schools by An Forás Patrúnachta and Educate Together. However, the majority of primary schools are still under Catholic patronage. While recognising the role that Catholic schools have played in welcoming children from diverse backgrounds and the continuing role for Catholic schools, we will need changes to the composition of schooling into the future to meet different needs. In addition significant issues are now emerging about the different definitions and types of diversity that might be recognised and how this can be accommodated while maximising effective use of existing and new infrastructure and education expenditure generally, particularly at a time of scarce resources.

As the Deputies are aware, consideration of many of the relevant issues is under way. My Department organised a major conference on primary school patronage in 2008. The new community national school model is piloting an approach to primary schooling involving multi-faith provision. A review of the procedures for the establishment of new primary schools is being undertaken by the Commission on School Accommodation. Among the issues being considered as part of the review is the issue of patronage including the criteria that must be met to decide on the patronage of a school. The commission is taking account of issues relating to diverse patronage models and the size of schools in its work. The commission has undertaken extensive consultation and involves a wide range of education partners in its membership.

It is already proving possible in developing areas to offer increased diversity as new schools need to be established. However, in areas where the population is not increasing to any great extent, it is more difficult to increase the diversity available.

Regarding such areas, the issue of the Catholic Church divesting itself of certain schools was originally explicitly raised by Archbishop Diarmuid Martin. In discussions on this matter, senior representatives of the Catholic Church and my Department agreed that it was essential to engage in planning for change. In order to advance the matter, my Department agreed that it would examine a number of initial locations to see what scope or options might exist for change of patronage in these cases. The particular focus was on identifying a sample number of areas of relatively stable demographics where the establishment of new schools was unlikely to emerge in the foreseeable future and where the provision is exclusively Catholic or where there is very limited diversity of provision at present. The aim is that these areas can then be used to trial the modalities by which the number of Catholic places and schools will be reduced and released for others.

The production of a potential list of locations by the Department will be, of course, only a first step. The decision on the identity of the particular Catholic school or schools that should close because of a surplus situation must ultimately rest with the patron and the Catholic community in the parish or parishes concerned. This means consultation within the parish or diocese, with the parent body of the schools and with the staff of the schools. Following any such identification by the Catholic community of where provision is to be divested I would envisage that the Department will put in place processes to consult with the local community generally, including prospective patrons, on the future patronage of identified schools. There also would be a range of implementation issues to be addressed.

Officials in my Department are currently carrying out an assessment of ten locations where changes to patronage may be warranted, given changed demographic profiles in recent decades. This assessment involved the initial identification of ten locations and detailed work on these. However, it may be necessary to re-identify some further areas if some of the initial ten locations appear not to be suitable. My Department has not yet completed this assessment. When the assessment is completed it is planned to establish a list of ten locations where such change may be warranted. The aim is to complete the assessment within the next month with a view to providing the list to the Catholic authorities for consideration and making the list available publicly. I would envisage that if the proposed pilots are feasible there would be consultation with the education parties on the steps to implement a transfer of patronage.

I recognise there is a need to continue to seek the input and views of a wide cross-section of contemporary Ireland on the relevant issues. I have outlined the extent to which consultation has been undertaken and the need for further consultation at a local level. I prefer to advance consideration and trialling of the practical issues so that specific proposals can be developed and issues identified rather than a more general and theoretical discussion at this stage. I am committed to further consultation with the education partners and with the wider public. The extent and nature of further consultation will be determined as the work under way is completed.

It did not take them long to house-train the Tánaiste. That is the most disappointing response I have heard from someone with the Tánaiste's experience and maturity. I would have thought that as a mother of relatively young children she would have a more open view. I take it the answer is that she is not going to establish a forum. Is that the correct interpretation of her reply?

It is not my intention to establish a forum at this moment in time.

The Catholic Church does not do democracy. It does not consult with its community; it informs its community. There is no procedure to which one can refer where the Catholic members of a parish are invited to vote or express their opinions in any structured way. If there is I am not aware of it. How will this process work? Who wrote the reply for the Tánaiste? It does not match any reality of which I am aware?

On the issue of patronage, as the Deputy knows diversity can be addressed much more quickly, particularly in areas where we have greater growth.

So the people who live in built-up areas do not have a choice.

I am a great believer in a number of other things about which many people forget, one of which is that I would like to hear what the Members of this House have to say.

Let us have a debate.

It would be very appropriate because we would have a diversity of views in this House on what should happen. Once the ten areas have been designated, I intend to meet the representatives of the Catholic Church. I believe the procedures must include not just patrons. As I have said, I believe in the representation of the Oireachtas Members.

As the question stated.

I also believe that parents and the wider community——

That is my question.

——equally must be consulted.

Hence the forum.

My issue with a forum is that we would have yet another forum, yet another two or three years of pontification and philosophy, following which we would revert to having no decisions. I certainly do not want to end up with no change and a lack of decision making.

The Tánaiste's reply is a step backwards by comparison with her predecessor, who showed more flexibility in his short tenure in his Department of Education and Science than she has in a month. She does not want to consult anyone. Her Department stated in March that it had identified ten sites. Now the Tánaiste cannot tell me where those sites are or how the Department consulted with parents in those sites. She will not even give us the information on those sites. The way the Department is dealing with this issue is disgraceful. Will the Tánaiste agree to have a debate in this House next week on the issue? We have not had any debate on the issue in the past two and a half or three years. Would she consider a proposal I made in the course of my speech to our party conference a month ago whereby every parent would receive a survey from the Department asking what they want. The only group being totally ignored by the Tánaiste and her colleagues in Cabinet comprises parents. It should survey parents, find out what they want and publish the survey.

The Catholic Church, through Archbishop Martin, approached my predecessor. He was not in a position to advise my predecessor as to where he felt areas could be divested. My Department was asked to identify those areas——

So where are they?

——on the basis of certain criteria. That work is almost completed and will be completed, as I indicated, by the end of the month.

Will the Tánaiste publish it?

Yes, it will be published.

By the end of the month.

It will then go back to the Catholic Church as it is the patron that will need to divest itself of its patronage. I do not have a problem with hearing what all Members of this House have to say. There is diversity within the Deputy's party because people come from different perspectives and different geographical areas. There are younger Members of this House and older Members of the House. I have no problem with a real discussion involving most of the Members of the House because we would like to hear what people have to say.

I have been in this job for one month. I am a parent. Many members here are parents. I believe in parental involvement and the voice of parents being heard and I will continue to do so as I have on every occasion in my 23 years in public service. I will hear what parents have to say because parents are entitled to have a view and a perspective on behalf of their children.

How will the Tánaiste find out what parents want? For the past two and a half years Deputy Quinn and I have suggested that a forum on the issue of patronage, control and ownership——

With all the stakeholders.

——is the way to go. That should be in public and not in secretive bilateral meetings between the Tánaiste and the Catholic Church or the Tánaiste and other parties behind closed doors; it should be out in public. Political parties should be represented there. As I have said before, if ever there were a necessity for a talking shop, it is on this issue. It will not be easy to arrive at a conclusion with which everyone is happy. How will the Tánaiste find out the views of parents if she refuses to accept my suggestion of an initial survey of every parent in the country organised by the Minister's Department? Is she equally refusing to accept the suggestion by myself and Deputy Quinn that a forum on patronage be established? How will she do this?

There have been many forums set up on many occasions on many of these issues.

Never on this issue.

Unfortunately they have taken a considerable amount of time. I do not want to talk about theory, I want to talk about how this can be practically achieved. It is much easier to achieve in certain areas, such as my part of the world where there has not been a huge change in population or demographics. In trying to provide diversity, we must respect everyone's views. There are clearly many parents who wish to have a different type of educational opportunity for their children. How to determine diversity is as difficult as how to proceed. It is on that basis that I want to continue the work in hand and will continue to re-evaluate it, reverting either to the committee or this House to hear what Members have to say.

In the Minister's second reply, she stated the Archbishop of Dublin is the biggest individual patron of schools in the country. Each bishop is a patron in his own right and is able to give a different response, which will reflect the diversity of the country. Dr. Diarmuid Martin said he felt he had too many schools for the Catholic community he serves and he came to the Department to suggest the best way forward to identify the schools that would no longer be under his patronage would be to establish an open forum. The archbishop believes in transparency but the Department, and the Minister, seem to be frightened of this.

I believe, and the Labour Party believes, in parental choice. The reality in Dublin South-East is a waiting list of 500 children for 18 schools. The children have been denied their first choice of school and their parents must now send their child, if they are lucky, to another school in the area. The Minister is failing to address the second aspect of parental choice. The problem is not in the growing areas, it is in existing built up areas.

In the briefings I have received on discussions with the previous Minister, although the archbishop was anxious to make progress, with the reality of changes in dioceses and supports in the Catholic church and numbers, the church will not be in a position to continue. In those briefings, the archbishop spoke about divesting and we are anxious to pursue that, we are working on methods to achieve it.

I am aware of what is happening in Deputy Quinn's constituency but in some areas divestiture can take place so others are afforded the opportunity, through consultation with parents, to establish patronage of schools. It is my view that should happen.

Why is the Minister so frightened of a forum?

I am not frightened of anything, I want to see how change can be achieved.

It could be done in tandem.

The process will be very open.

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