Other Questions
6 Deputy Joan Burton asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills if she will reconsider proceeding with three new community national schools; if her attention has been drawn to the fact that concerns have been raised by the members of the religious advisory group supervising the teaching of religion in these pilot schools; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [18299/10]
Amharc ar fhreagraFollowing a detailed analysis of projected demographic growth over the coming years and consultation with patron bodies, the former Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, approved seven new primary schools to open in September in rapidly developing areas. These include three new community national schools in locations in Balbriggan, County Dublin, Navan, County Meath and Naas, County Kildare. The addition of further schools to the community national school model already being piloted in two schools in Dublin 15 will enhance the capacity to make informed decisions on the further roll-out of this new model of patronage in other locations in the future.
The model is proceeding on the basis of clearly stated principles in respect of the availability of religious education during the school day, in conformity with the wishes of parents. The schools welcome and respect all faiths and none and seek to provide for religious education in the main faiths represented within them. This commitment is an important distinguishing feature of the model. The schools also seek to cater for parents who do not wish their children to receive religious education in any one particular faith and they operate through an ethos of inclusiveness and respect for all beliefs, both religious and non-religious.
A multi-belief religious education programme in line with these principles is being developed on an action research basis by the current patron-designate, County Dublin VEC, under the working title, Goodness Me — Goodness You. Developing the programme through action research allows faith communities, teachers, parents and others involved to share in addressing the challenges involved and this process is being supported, in an advisory capacity, by a reference group chaired by County Dublin VEC. The group includes representatives of the main churches and faith or belief groups as well as experts in curriculum development and the teaching of religion. It also includes representatives of non-theist and polytheist perspectives, such as the Humanist Association and the Buddhist community to ensure the programme also reflects the wishes of parents who do not wish their children to participate in faith specific religious education. The group is a forum for the discussion of the many issues that arise as the programme is being developed but it does not have a role in the supervision of religious education in the community national schools.
It is important to say that feedback to date from those involved in the programme on the ground has been very positive. It has been welcomed in particular by parents of children in the schools who have direct experience of the lessons and materials being delivered.
I thank the Minister for her reply. Is she aware that the group she mentioned has referred to her Department a comprehensive letter setting out a series of questions on the constitutionality and legality of faith formation in a State school within school hours and a number of related queries? I understand the letter was sent this time last year. The group was subsequently informed that the matter had been referred to the Attorney General for advice by representatives in the Department. Does the Minister's briefing note confirm this as accurate and is she in a position to say whether the advice has been received from the Attorney General? The work of the group cannot proceed unless these questions are answered.
I am not aware of a letter but I am aware of a consultation and ongoing work. The prima facie of much of this issue has been in establishing the diversity of needs and wishes of the parents that in certain circumstances, those with particular faiths wish their children to be taught within school hours as opposed to outside them.
The Deputy asked me to pursue another issue, which I will, in the context of the statutory basis for these schools. I do not have a copy of a letter sent from the advisory group. I am advised that it is progressing the development of the programme which I alluded to, Goodness Me — Goodness You, with a view to providing religious education or faith formation within the schools.
I accept what the Minister is saying. I will undertake to make available to her the correspondence, and if I do so the Minister might be in a position to respond directly to me.
If matters are referred to the Attorney General, his advice is acted upon. In finally bringing the patronage Bill to the House, my assumption is that the issues to be raised will be clarified. I will seek further clarification and I will speak to the Deputy privately if necessary.
I have a question on the drawing up of the faith formation programme in the schools. Is it odd that this is being done by a group separate to the curriculum development unit or the Department? Why was that decision taken?
It is not. The National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, has advised that faith formation is not a curricular issue. These schools were piloted, with their progress evaluated and what I have heard so far does not concur with what was alluded in a "Prime Time" programme as the majority of the parents are very happy with the work and progress of the schools. I have been advised that now we are not establishing a curriculum on faith formation as it is not within the remit of the NCCA.
I am concerned about the quality of the briefing material provided to the Minister. It is not within her remit to be directly informed by our own actions; I would not impose that on anybody. If the Minister has had the chance to read the briefing material, does it refer to correspondence from the NCCA to the reference group, in which it advised that faith formation inside school hours for a multiplicity of different belief systems, with a single principal teacher in the classroom, is not the way to go? Is there any reference to that advice in the briefing material?
The question is not about the advice given to me in the context of the research work. The issue regards supervision of the teaching of religion. As I indicated, they are not involved in the supervision of the teaching of religion in these pilot schools. It concerns supervision.
That is the question I was asked.
It was not.
We must move on.
The question concerns the supervision of teaching of religion in these pilot schools.
I am sure bilateral discussions between the Minister and the Deputy will elucidate an answer for the Deputy.
7 Deputy Catherine Byrne asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills the action she has taken to address the fact that schools are now treated as businesses for the purpose of paying for gas; if her attention has been drawn to the fact that the pricing structure is unfair for schools with limited funds; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [18216/10]
Amharc ar fhreagraSchools, like all other users, are required to pay for a range of utilities such as electricity, water and telecoms, and gas is but one of these. It is important the pricing structures for any of the utilities as they apply to schools should be determined on a transparent and fair basis.
Responsibility for the regulation of the natural gas market is a matter for the Commission for Energy Regulation, which is an independent statutory body. My Department's understanding is that under the regulated tariff structure for Bord Gáis Energy, the level of each customer's consumption of gas determines which sector they are in with regard to tariffs. This applies regardless of whether the consuming premises is a home, school, shop or industrial premises. It is therefore not true to say that schools are regarded as businesses for the purpose of paying for gas. Since categorisation is based on consumption levels and not governed by the type of business or activity concerned it may be the case that individual schools are on a tariff that also applies to industrial or commercial customers with the same level of usage.
It is also important that schools look closely at their level of gas consumption as a means of lowering their costs. In 2009, in order to improve energy efficiency in existing schools, my Department introduced a new €20 million scheme to improve roof and cavity wall insulation levels in school buildings across the country. The devolved energy efficiency scheme, which was implemented with the help of Sustainable Energy Ireland, allowed schools to apply for funding on a once-off basis to upgrade the fabric insulation in attics and the external cavity walls of their buildings.
My Department has also organised discussions with school management representatives recently with a view to a more collaborative approach to the procurement of goods and services within the school and VEC sectors. This meeting included representatives from the National Procurement Service who explained the potential for the unit to help schools achieve savings. It is intended that the initial focus will be on the procurement of energy supplies.
The capitation grant is the main funding mechanism for schools to enable them meet their day to day running costs including for utilities. The Deputy will be aware that notwithstanding the difficult economic climate the renewed programme for Government has made specific provision for the maintenance of school capitation levels at current rates.
We all accept that money is tight and it is a very difficult time for the country and schools. They must make do with the money given to them by the Department of Education and Skills. A typical school with gas as its main source of energy may spend approximately €10,000 per year and of that half goes towards site charges, VAT and other charges over which the school has no control. It is a business tariff because once the school goes over a certain volume of gas usage, it is automatically on the business tariff.
I have spoken to representatives of schools up and down the country who have asked the Department of Education and Skills to come to some arrangement with the regulator and the Minister of State's colleague, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, to bring about a deal for schools. They are in a unique position; a school might not be open for 100 days a year but it will be charged by the gas companies nonetheless. A fairer deal should be negotiable for schools that would cut down on gas bills and allow them to use their money in other ways.
The Deputy appreciates that these are matters for the Commission for Energy Regulation.
Who will speak up for the schools?
I reiterate that the tariffs are based on consumption.
I know that.
The Department has gone to the energy regulator to raise these issues and it will continue to pursue them with the regulator. We are introducing a number of initiatives to reduce the level of gas consumption in schools and keep costs down in general.
I ask the Minister of State and the Minister to confirm that yesterday, the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills told us the HEA and a group of colleges within the authority had come together to negotiate with an energy supplier, of gas in this case. Will the Minister of State offer an opinion? If schools under a particular patronage were to join together, for example, the 92% of the 3,000 or so schools, and collectively approach and negotiate a deal with a gas supplier, would this not be something the likes of which the Tánaiste lauded yesterday morning in committee room 3?
The Department, the Tánaiste, who is sitting beside me, and I would be in agreement with the thrust of the Deputy's points. We are trying to encourage a more collaborative approach to the procurement of goods and services within the school and VEC sectors. The Department would encourage schools to come together in terms of procurement and the issues raised by the Deputy. We will continue to pursue that.
On foot of the Minister of State's response, will he write to all of the primary school patrons and bring their attention to this discussion?
We will look into it and determine what is the best way to encourage schools to take up this option.
This matter was first brought to my attention by the Catholic Primary School Management Association, CPSMA, which had the matter brought to its attention by a large number of its schools. I have spoken with some gas companies, which claimed that they have no control over this area because the regulator sets the tariff and pricing structure. This is a matter for the regulator in consultation with the Ministers for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and Education and Skills.
According to the Minister of State, he met the regulator. When was the meeting? Will there be a follow-up meeting? As Deputy Quinn suggested, can we try to procure gas and other energy sources on the basis of a number of schools joining together? This is the way forward. Otherwise, the waste will continue.
The meeting occurred during my predecessor's term of office, but I can get the Deputy the date. The regulator is independent and the Department is pursuing these issues with him.
He is not unapproachable.
We have pursued it with him.
Yes. We are encouraging the approach raised by the Deputies and we will pursue the matter further.
The Minister of State might send correspondence as encouragement.
As the Deputy knows, the regulator is familiar with my views in my previous incarnation. I will continue to be as vociferous.
We will await the results.
I have met a number of Irish companies that are in a position to facilitate this type of procurement policy. It is an appropriate way to proceed.
8 Deputy Michael D. Higgins asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills the way she will introduce bonus points for mathematics in the leaving certificate in view of the lack of consensus among the academic councils of the seven universities in the State as to whether this should be done; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [18284/10]
Amharc ar fhreagra23 Deputy James Reilly asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills if a decision will be made on the introduction of bonus points in respect of higher level mathematics in time for those students entering fifth year this autumn and sitting the leaving certificate in 2012 to make an informed subject choice before they commence fifth year as recommended in the innovation task force report; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [18191/10]
Amharc ar fhreagraI propose to take Questions Nos. 8 and 23 together.
A high level of mathematical achievement is vital for Ireland. We need to improve attainment levels in maths and encourage more students to take higher level maths. A major programme of reform in mathematics under Project Maths is under way in 24 schools. The overall aim is to teach mathematics in a way that promotes real understanding, where students can appreciate the relevance of what they are learning, its application to everyday life and how it can be used to solve problems. While Project Maths is designed to promote more positive attitudes and higher attainment in mathematics in the longer term, there is a need for a more immediate incentive that will successfully encourage more students to take higher level mathematics.
I am aware that students weigh up the time and effort versus the reward associated with taking honours maths in the context of the CAO points system. This is why I indicated that we could send a clear signal to our second level student population with the introduction of CAO bonus points for achievement in leaving certificate mathematics at higher level.
Legally, the criteria for admission to higher education institutions are matters for decision by the institutions themselves. The academic councils of these institutions determine the admission arrangements for students. I have written to the president of the Irish Universities Association, the chairman of the Institutes of Technology of Ireland and the president of the Dublin Institute of Technology asking them to give early and favourable consideration to the matter in the context of a suitably devised bonus points system that will successfully encourage more students to sit higher level maths in the leaving certificate. I look forward to their response in the matter.
I have no plans to award bonus points through the leaving certificate examination. The remit of the State Examinations Commission is to operate certificate examinations that assess and certify attainment in accordance with the learning objectives set out in the syllabus devised by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, and the various subjects. Marks awarded are all based on published marking schemes and candidates can review their scripts. The awarded bonus points for maths unrelated to achievement would mark a departure from the long-standing practice to treat all subjects individually based on the published marking scheme with no attempt to assess weightings between subjects. Bonus points through this route would call into question the integrity of the examination system.
I am fascinated by the reply. Why did the Tánaiste raise this hare if she cannot do it? The common understanding, certainly mine, was to the effect that, if someone got 55 points in honours maths, there would be a bonus of 50% or 100%. The person would have 110 points as far as the CAO was concerned. Is the Tánaiste saying this is not possible or was it not what she meant when she made her comment, which was welcomed by most of us?
There is a number of issues. I firmly believe we should give young people an incentive to participate in honours mathematics.
And points are an incentive they understand.
They are important. However, I do not want a situation in which someone who sat a maths exam and got a B1 would move up a grade as a consequence of bonuses. It would remove the integrity of the exam.
Every maths student would move up.
It would not mean that the child had achieved the mark. It is a matter for the universities. I have been explicit in my opinion that I wish to see bonus points for honours mathematics. It is the first recommendation in the report of the innovation task force. I have heard no dissenting voice in the House in this regard. I have explicitly asked the universities to take into consideration the recommendations of the task force and Members' opinions.
I want to allow a number of Deputies to speak.
The Tánaiste was hardly a wet week in her current job and she had plenty of ministerial experience when she endorsed a recommendation by the innovation committee that was supported by myself and many others. Surely she knew what she was saying when she said it. Since then, has her Department told her that she cannot do it in a particular way, but that there is another way to do the same thing? Are we down to the point at which we must write to seven universities to get their opinions?
The heads of the universities are acutely aware of my opinions and those of the Government. They are also aware of the task force's recommendations. Of significant importance is that, in trying to achieve what we want and what we have been told by industry, we must have a greater acumen in mathematics and incentivise those who wish to take honours mathematics. By their nature, young people will see how best to get points. To encourage them, there should be bonus points for honours mathematics. Consideration must be given to this issue. For certain subject matters, the University of Limerick, for example, awards additional points for honours mathematics in its entry requirements. That is the independence of the university sector. I hope it will take into consideration the expressed views of all Deputies and the Government when addressing this matter. I wrote to the universities in the past ten days and am awaiting further discussions with them.
With the greatest degree of respect to the Tánaiste, she is wrong.
I am not.
This is a policy issue for the Government. Her predecessor opposed the argument for bonus maths points. The clear spin put about by the Tánaiste in one of her addresses to the teacher conferences was that she was in favour of bonus points. Either we have a policy or we do not. If we do, the universities will implement it. As I have suggested previously, one solution could be to apply bonus points for maths if a student goes on to do a maths or science course in any higher education institution. This is a simple CAO requirement that the Tánaiste, on a policy level, could implement were she so minded.
The proposal by the innovation task force is that bonus points should be introduced next September. In other words, it would be implemented in respect of students taking their leaving certificate exams in 2012. Will this occur, yes or no?
The Cabinet has discussed economic renewal. As Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment at the time, I expressed the view that we need to incentivise mathematics and that the best way to do so was through the awarding of bonus points.
The then Minister for Education and Science disagreed with the Tánaiste.
He may have done so. However, the position now is that I, as Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills, am of the view that we should incentivise mathematics. It is my intention to pursue this matter vigorously.
Will it be done by 2012?
I had only been the Department of Education and Skills for two or three days when I wrote to the heads of the relevant universities and institutes of technology in order to express my views. As a result, are now acutely aware of the nature of those views.
Will bonus point for mathematics be in place by 2012?
It is my intention to implement this as a matter of urgency in order that young people will have time in which to make their decisions.
Is that a "Yes"?
9 Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills the reason for the delay in progressing proposals in respect of the Grangegorman DIT project, Dublin. [18314/10]
Amharc ar fhreagraThe proposals contained in the strategic plan for the Grangegorman site involve major capital expenditure which requires careful and detailed assessment by my Department and the other Departments involved in the project. This assessment is nearing completion. When it is completed, it is intended to bring the proposals contained in the plan to Government for consideration.
The Grangegorman Development Agency was established in May 2006. Since its establishment, the agency has worked on the preparation of a strategic plan and budget for the proposed development of the Grangegorman site. The agency completed the drafting of the strategic plan and budget in October 2008 and forwarded it to my Department for approval as provided in section 12(h) of the relevant Act. Copies of the plan and budget were also forwarded to the Minister for Health and Children for her consideration. The Grangegorman Development Agency has provided my Department with a clear indication of the overall costs for the development of the site. This has allowed the Department the opportunity to consider fully the costs involved in utilising the majority of the Grangegorman campus to provide for needs of the Dublin Institute of Technology.
Following receipt of the strategic plan, Department officials, in consultation with the Higher Education Authority, commenced an assessment of the proposals. The Department also sought the advice of the National Development Finance Agency on the relevant funding portions of the plan. In March 2009 the agency submitted a revised master plan and budget. The revised plan takes account of the reduced prices that have materialised in the construction sector, as well as revising the estimated value of the DIT's property portfolio to reflect current market trends. The revised plan proposes to deliver the project in phases. The National Development Finance Agency has also been consulted on the revised funding plan. Given the scale of the proposals and in light of the current situation with regard to the public finances, careful consideration will be needed.
While the strategic plan and budget are being considered by the Department, work on the preparation of the strategic development zone planning scheme has been progressed by the agency. The Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive are also moving ahead with developing facilities on the site and recently announced that construction will commence this year for the new mental health replacement facilities for the residents and staff of St. Brendan's Hospital in Grangegorman.
Is the Minister of State aware that to date over €14 million has already been spent on this project? Is he also aware that it was recommended in the McCarthy report that the proposals relating to this project be dropped entirely? Is it intended to proceed with the DIT campus on the site at Grangegorman? The Minister of State referred to a number of dates. The strategic plan was brought forward over 18 months ago, while the reassessment was carried out over a year ago. However, it is not so long since we were informed that the new campus would be opened in 2010. That is not going to happen now.
Is it intended to proceed with the proposals for the Grangegorman area in full? The Minister of State indicated that they would proceed on a phased basis. What is happening in respect of this project will have implications in respect of other proposals. Have discussions taken place between the Grangegorman Development Agency, departmental officials and those who are planning metro north? Is it intended to shelve the plans relating to metro north?
The assessment being carried out by the Department is nearing completion. When it is complete, it is intended to bring the proposals that will emerge to Government for consideration. The Tánaiste intends to bring this matter to the Government in the near future. I appreciate the Deputy's interest in this matter. As a Deputy who also represents a Dublin constituency, I have visited the site in question. I am aware that the Tánaiste intends to visit it in the near future and that she has engaged in consultations with the various stakeholders. Since coming to office, she has given this matter her attention. As already stated, it is expected that a memorandum on the matter will be brought to Government in the near future.
I welcome the Minister of State's further clarification. Is he in a position to indicate whether he or the Tánaiste will visit the DIT's existing campuses? The staff and students who work and learn at these facilities are obliged to endure cramped, overcrowded conditions. They were promised, with much fanfare, that a new campus would be built at Grangegorman. As yet, neither a start date nor a completion date have been provided in respect of the construction of that new campus. Will the Minister of State instruct his officials to adopt a new sense of urgency in respect of delivering some type of proposal in respect of this matter in the coming months?
The Government would have been irresponsible if it had not taken account of the changed economic circumstances that have obtained during the past two years. As already stated, the revised plan takes account of the reduced prices that have materialised in the construction sector. It also revises the estimated value of the DIT's property portfolio to reflect current market trends. Circumstances have changed radically in the past two years. As a result, the factors to which I refer had to be taken into account and a revised plan had to be prepared. The plan, as with those relating to many other projects of the same scale, will be implemented in phases. The Tánaiste and I regularly visit institutes of technology.
As the Minister of State is aware, his late father, even in the most difficult of times and much to his credit, managed to push through development projects that were needed in this city and elsewhere. I put it to him that what is required is a Government commitment to allow the strategic development zone plan to proceed. I understand that a very quick form of planning applies in this regard and that, as a consequence, matters cannot proceed until the Government makes its decision.
Absolutely.
It is crucial that the Government should make the decision to which I refer. I understand there is cross-party support for and consensus in respect of such a decision being made.
There would be no need to provide money up front in respect of that decision.
We could probably build then the campus on a piecemeal basis and over a longer period. However, it is crucial that the Government should make its decision as soon as possible.
A procedure is in place in respect of the preparation of the strategic development zone. Work on the planning scheme relating to the strategic development zone has been progressed by the agency. I note the Deputy's comments in that regard. There is no doubt that this is a major revitalisation project for the part of Dublin city to which it relates.
10 Deputy Willie Penrose asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills the areas of FÁS that are now under the remit of her Department; if primary legislation is required to make the changes announced as part of the reconfiguration of Departments in March 2010; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [18293/10]
Amharc ar fhreagraThe Taoiseach, when nominating new members of the Government on 23 March last, indicated to Dáil Éireann his intention to make a number of changes in the structure of ministerial responsibilities and Departments in the interest of the better alignment of functions. Those changes included a transfer of certain responsibilities from the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, including responsibility for skills and training policy and for FÁS, as a State body, to the renamed Department of Education and Skills. Responsibility for FÁS employment services and employment programmes was transferred to the renamed Department of Social Protection.
The Office of the Attorney General examined the issues relating to the proposed transfer and advised that in order to ensure that it is carried out correctly, it would be advisable to use primary legislation. On foot of that advice, the Government decided on 27 April 2010 to transfer with effect from 1 May 2010, the functions of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment regarding FÁS to me as the Minister for Education and Skills. This was done under the Employment Programmes and Services and Skills Training (Transfer of Departmental Administration and Ministerial Functions) Order 2010. The name of my Department, and my title as Minister, was then changed by Government order to Education and Skills with effect from 2 May 2010.
It is now the intention that the Minister for Social Protection, in consultation with me as Minister for Education and Skills, will bring forward immediately a proposed amendment to the social welfare (miscellaneous provisions) Bill 2010 to endow the Minister for Social Protection with the necessary statutory powers in respect of the employment services and community services programmes of FÁS and subsequently to transfer the related funding to the Minister for Social Protection. It is hoped, subject to the availability of Oireachtas time, that this Bill will be enacted before the summer recess.
Therefore until such time as the Bill is enacted all areas of FÁS are under the remit of my Department. It is envisaged that further legislation will be required to enable the full transfer of the employment services and community services programmes into the Department of Social Protection.
I thank the Tánaiste for her reply. Do I take it that the Secretary General in her Department is the responsible Accounting Officer?
Yes.
The Tánaiste will be haunted by FÁS for longer than she thought.
Yes.
I do not agree. While I have had my challenges with FÁS, we made a good appointment in respect of the new board, whose members I believe have plenty of drive, energy and enthusiasm. Moreover, there will be greater synergies between FÁS and the skills portfolio in respect of further education, PLCs and so on with the Minister of State responsible. It will bring better synergies and will focus on the development of the national skills strategy. Consequently, I look forward to it.
11 Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills the current pupil-teacher ratio in the classroom as compared with the situation at this time five years ago; her expectations in respect of the 2011 school year based on the expected pupil intake; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [18320/10]
Amharc ar fhreagraMy Department publishes extensive statistical information on its website, including figures in respect of pupil-teacher ratios, PTRs. The most recently published figures relate to the 2008-09 school year and show that the pupil-teacher ratio was an average of one teacher for every 15.9 pupils at primary level and one teacher for every 13 pupils at post-primary level.
The corresponding figures for the 2004-05 school year was a PTR of 17.1:1 for primary level and 13.4:1 for post-primary levels. Work is well advanced on the statistics for the current school year and it is planned to publish the results in September. The preliminary indications are that the pupil-teacher ratio in the current school year will be broadly in line with previous years. It is early to speculate at this stage on the PTR trend for the 2010-11 school year. However, I do not expect it to be significantly different from recent years because, notwithstanding the general moratorium on public sector recruitment, the Government has agreed to allow schools to increase their teacher numbers to cater for demographic growth.
The Deputy also will be aware that the renewed programme for Government commits the Government to no further increases in the pupil-teacher ratio in primary and second level schools for the lifetime of the Government and the provision of 500 additional teaching posts between primary and second levels over a three-year period. The initial tranches of these additional posts have been allocated and, at primary level, this has enabled some improvement to the primary staffing schedule for the 2010-11 school year. The improvement has been targeted at medium to larger sized schools, which typically are under the greatest pressure in respect of class sizes.
The issue in this regard pertains more to class sizes than to pupil-teacher ratios, as the latter are arrived at by adding up all teachers, principals and everyone else and dividing them by the number of children in the school. That does not tell one much. The real issue pertains to class size and as the Tánaiste is aware, this has worsened considerably in the course of the last two years, given the change in the class schedule. Does the Tánaiste have information to hand for the benefit of Members on the total number of classes nationwide that have 30 or more children? Is such information available? Second, did the Tánaiste state in her reply that the full information on last year's enrolment figures, which is normally given to the Department in October of each year, will not be available until next September? It is important that she should clarify this point.
The Deputy is correct. The PTR calculation is the total enrolment in the number of teaching posts as of 30 June. Consequently, one must wait until 30 June before this work is completed. It is then——
The Department gets the figures for pupils in October and gets the figure for the number of teachers the following June. That is some system.
Yes, that is the system and it is expected to be ready for publication in September.
Of this year?
Yes. As for the issue regarding the number of classes, the pupil-teacher ratio is what is set down. The management of the number of children within their class is a matter for the local management and a number of class sizes can be greater than 28, for example, because of local decisions that are made when people wish to avoid having different numbers of classes within the same room, etc. However, it is important that principals in particular should consider the idea of having smaller multigrade classes, as opposed to having particularly large differences in class sizes between, for example, fifth and sixth class or second and third class or whatever. The position is that despite the huge difficulties we face in respect of the economy, the Government is still in a position to appoint teachers to deal with the present demographics. Given the challenges that exist——
The numbers are increasing. The Department does not have a choice.
While the numbers are increasing, the Government is in a position, through the setting aside of the moratorium, to allow those appointments to be made, as well as 500 additional appointments.
The Government must do so.
