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National Debt

Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 23 March 2011

Wednesday, 23 March 2011

Ceisteanna (11, 12)

Richard Boyd Barrett

Ceist:

11 Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Minister for Finance his views on the future sustainability of the State's debt burden arising out of the EU/International Monetary Fund loan package and the banking crisis; if he will reveal the names of all the bondholders of the Irish banks; if he will now consider unilateral restructuring of Irish bank debt to ease the penal debt burden being imposed on citizens and our economy; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5516/11]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Pearse Doherty

Ceist:

13 Deputy Pearse Doherty asked the Minister for Finance the stage the State’s debt burden becomes unsustainable; the measures being explored to safeguard debt sustainability; the cost of interest payments in the period to 2015 and the projected tax take for the same period; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5515/11]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (18 píosaí cainte)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 11 and 13 together.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The purpose of the joint EU-IMF programme of financial support is to provide the necessary funding while Government continues the process of repairing the banking system, restoring the public finances to a sustainable position and assisting the economy to return to a path of sustained growth and job creation. The programme provides access to a secure source of funding which the State can avail of in the coming years. It is important to bear in mind that a large element of the borrowing that will take place under the programme replaces borrowing that would have been undertaken in any event to fund the day to day activities of the State.

The State's debt burden has increased substantially over recent years as a result of the significant deterioration in our public finances, owing to the economic downturn, and the significant level of State support provided to the banking sector. Clearly, a gross general Government debt level of €148 billion, or approximately 94% of GDP, as it is estimated to have been at the end of 2010, is very high and one that needs our ongoing and close attention. Both the nominal level of the debt and the debt to GDP ratio are forecast to increase further in the coming years, albeit at reducing levels, as we will have to continue to borrow to fill the gap between revenues and spending, and economic growth remains relatively subdued.

The stress tests being conducted at present to determine the extent of additional support required by the banking sector have the potential to increase the level of debt over and above the most recent Department of Finance forecasts, with resulting increases in the level of resources that must be diverted to servicing the interest on that debt. It is my view that an amount above the previously identified €10 billion sum will be required but I cannot give a definitive figure until the outcome of the current stress tests is known.

There is no one rule that states that if one's debt is above a particular level, it is unmanageable. Clearly, however, a debt level on the scale the State is currently at is one that warrants our attention and requires that action be taken. Stabilising and then reducing the debt ratio to lower levels is a key priority of the Government's policy objectives. The narrowing of the gap that currently exists between revenues and expenditure through additional fiscal consolidation, coupled with the implementation of policy measures that will assist in boosting economic growth, will assist in this regard, as will the achievement of a primary surplus — that is, an excess of revenues over expenditure excluding interest expenditure — by 2014.

The budget 2011 forecasts projected debt interest costs at €4.8 billion, €6 billion, €7 billion and €7.8 billion in the years 2011-14 respectively. The budget 2011 forecasts for tax revenue for the years 2011-14 were €34.9 billion, €38.3 billion, €41.3 billion and €44.4 billion respectively. The budget 2011 public finance forecasts are based on a capital injection of €10 billion for the banking sector, which, as I have said, is likely to be higher.

One measure which may be referenced in forming a judgment of whether a particular level of debt is sustainable is the proportion of tax revenues that must go towards servicing the interest on that debt. Based on the forecasts I have just outlined, it is estimated that approximately 14% of tax revenues will be required to service the interest on the State's national debt this year. By 2014, approximately 18% of our total tax revenues will be required simply to service the debt. While this is undoubtedly significant and high, the level of tax revenue devoted to servicing the debt in the 1980s was higher. In regard to the forecasts of debt interest costs and tax revenues for 2015, the current forecasts do not extend that far. However, the projections for both are currently being worked on by the Department of Finance in the context of the upcoming stability programme update which is due to be submitted to the European Commission and subsequently published.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House.

I turn specifically to Deputy Boyd Barrett's query on the names of bondholders of the Irish banks. Credit institutions do not have access to comprehensive information on the holders of their senior and subordinated debt, because such debt is publicly traded and dealt with through clearing house systems. Issuers do not have access to the records of those systems and the issuer has no means of establishing the underlying ownership of its bonds at any given time. Unlike the position of shares, the holders of credit institutions' senior and subordinated debt instruments are not subject to a disclosure regime. Therefore, such information as a credit institution may have on the holders of its debt would be indicative only and based on an institution's client-specific and general market information. Any such information would be commercially sensitive and subject to the normal provisions on client confidentiality, where applicable.

Government consideration of the approach to burden sharing will be further informed by the outcome of the important capital assessment exercise currently being undertaken by the Central Bank as well as international developments on burden sharing.

Are we failing to look reality in the face in respect of the unsustainability of the debt burden imposed as a result of this package? It is not only I who say this — this is a view widely held, including by people such as the Nobel Prize-winning economist, Joseph Stiglitz, lead writers for the Financial Times and economists in this country such as David McWilliams and Constantin Gurdgiev, who all say the burden is unsustainable. It is shocking that some 18% of tax revenue in 2014 will go to service only the interest repayments on this debt, never mind the capital debt. Many people say we are sinking into a morass of debt which will cripple this economy as well as cause untold suffering for working people and the poor and vulnerable in our society. Again, it is not only I or all those economists and international commentators who say that. I remind the Minister of his own words in February: “It is neither morally right nor economically sustainable for taxpayers to be asked to beggar themselves to make massive profits for speculators”. That was said at the launch of the Fine Gael Party banking policy when the Minister stated he believed the new Government, of which he is now a member, would be forced to restructure unilaterally the debt of Irish banks if agreement cannot be reached with Europe regarding senior bondholders sharing the cost of recapitalising the country’s insolvent banks.

The Minister was absolutely right. I could not have put it better myself. At that time, he was in line with what everybody in the country felt and what all serious commentators were saying. What has changed? Why has the debt now become sustainable when at that time the Minister said it was not so?

I ask the Minister to reply.

Is it not time to consider the Iceland option of defaulting or, at least, giving the people the opportunity to debate issues concerning the possibility of defaulting so that instead of bailing out banks we might put the National Pensions Reserve Fund into a job stimulus programme?

As the Deputy pointed out, there is an ongoing and far-reaching debate on these issues. However, there is not a consensus, as he suggested. There are different views and the debate continues.

I never said our debt was not sustainable; I said it could become unsustainable, which is a different issue. It could become unsustainable and we must be very careful to ensure it does not become so. There are variations regarding that and one such will be known at the end of the month. When the stress tests on the banks are made public, we will know what level of capitalisation is required for the banks in order that they can continue to trade profitably. However, there are other variables including, obviously, the level of growth one builds into the economic model and the actual level of growth achieved. Therefore, no matter how wise one is, it is not possible to say the debt will be unsustainable next week, next month, next year, or in three years' time. However, the total burden on Ireland at present would leave one to believe there could come a time when it would be unsustainable and we must consider all options to guard against that possibility.

I call Deputy Pearse Doherty.

Has my time finished?

Yes. Six minutes are allowed per question.

I presume there will be supplementary questions.

There are only six minutes so, if one multiplies that by two, taking into account the two questions, there are 12 minutes of which three minutes and 37 seconds remain.

I refer to debt sustainability. The Minister stated we could arrive at a position in which the State's debt could become unsustainable and the programme for Government mentions a danger of this burden becoming unsustainable. Therefore, this is the position of the Government, not mine. I believe we have already reached that point, as do many other economists and, indeed, the bond markets. Last week saw the highest rates for ten-year bonds, at 9.75%. They continue to rise and, unfortunately, will hit the 10% mark very soon because of the Government's policy.

The Minister stated it was hard to say whether this would happen next week, next month or next year. Surely to God the Minister for Finance's Department must have some kind of analysis that will tell him that if Ireland takes on additional debt burden it will become unsustainable. Let him not tell me that he, as Minister for Finance, is walking us through the dark of the night towards the big iceberg in front of us and that when we finally hit it he will turn around and say, "By the way, folks, our debt now is unsustainable".

What projections have been made in the Department that led the programme for Government to state a time would come when debt unsustainability might become a factor? The Minister announced that to RTE in Brussels. Is the additional amount to be put into the banks €10 billion? Is it €2 billion or €100 billion? I ask the Minister to tell us the honest to God facts, the truth. That is what he argued on this side of the House and the Taoiseach said he would be honest with the people. What is the level in question? Will we have to put in additional money if the stress tests show it is unsustainable to do so at this point? That is my first supplementary question.

The second question relates to the stress test.

There will be no time for an answer.

The Taoiseach announced he will not commit any further money other than the €10 billion already committed to the banks unless burden sharing is on the table. Will the Minister confirm that, regardless of the figure that emerges from the analysis next week, we will not put anything in excess of €10 billion into the banks unless burden sharing is achieved in this State?

In pressing my position Deputy Doherty seemed to slide over the key word. I never said, as he did, that our position is unsustainable. I said it could become unsustainable if too much of a burden is placed——

What is the figure?

The simplest way of looking at unsustainability is the following: if the State were to reach a point whereby we could no longer afford to service our debts, then we would be coming to the point of unsustainability. However, there are many variables that would build up to that and we are a long way from that position. I have great confidence in this economy. In tandem with the jobs budget we discussed that will put growth back into the economy, we can change the profile and the arithmetic. However, we are certainly in a serious situation.

The stress tests will be available at the end of the month. People whose opinion I respect tell me the figure will be more than €10 billion but I cannot give the Deputy a precise figure. The figure of €10 billion is built into the arithmetic and therefore there will be an additional burden put onto the Irish taxpayer. We will look at the situation then but must move in the context of a bailout agreement being in place with the agreement of the IMF, the European Central Bank, the European Commission and the Irish Government. That Government, our predecessor, spoke for the Irish State. Therefore, the contract is not with the Fianna Fáil-Green Party Administration but with the Irish Republic and one must remember that when considering these issues.

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