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Constitutional Convention

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 3 May 2011

Tuesday, 3 May 2011

Ceisteanna (4, 5, 6)

Micheál Martin

Ceist:

4 Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he will outline details for the programme for Government commitment to establish a constitutional convention; the legislative basis intended for the convention; and if the 12 month reporting deadline is from 9 March 2011 or from the date of establishment. [8191/11]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Gerry Adams

Ceist:

5 Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach when the proposed referendum on the abolition of the Seanad will be held. [8368/11]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Gerry Adams

Ceist:

6 Deputy Gerry Adams asked the Taoiseach when will the proposed constitutional convention be held; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8370/11]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (9 píosaí cainte)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 to 6, inclusive, together.

The programme for Government commits the Government to establishing a constitutional convention to consider comprehensive constitutional reform and report on the following matters: the review of the Dáil electoral system; reducing the term of office of the President from seven years to five; provision for same sex marriage; broadening the reference in the Constitution to the role of women in the home to one which recognises the role of the parent in the home; removing blasphemy from the Constitution; the possible reduction of the voting age; and other relevant constitutional amendments that may be recommended by the convention.

The convention will be expected to report within 12 months of its establishment. Work has commenced on the preparation of detailed proposals for its establishment and when ready, these will be considered by the Government. They will address matters such as the structure, composition and terms of reference of the convention, as well as the basis on which it will be established.

The Government is committed to holding a referendum on the abolition of the Seanad as soon as practicable. As a first step, it will be necessary to clarify which articles of the Constitution will need to be deleted or amended in the context of abolishing the Seanad and to consider the possible implications of any such deletions or amendments. These matters are being considered in consultation with the Attorney General prior to the preparation of the heads of a Bill for submission to the Government.

I welcome the proposal in the programme for Government for a constitutional convention. Will the Taoiseach give a commitment to the House that the convention's remit will be wide enough to allow for a real debate about radical reform of the Dáil and its relationship with the Government?

The Taoiseach mentioned reform of the electoral system. Does that mean merely a reduction in the number of Dáil Deputies or real reform of the electoral system, for instance, moving to a different system such as a single-seat STV system? Are these issues up for consideration?

In essence, the convention is to consider reforms to the Dáil and the Government which should be implemented at the same time as the abolition of the Seanad. We want real reform here, not merely superficial and shallow reform. We want substantive reform of the way the House does business, of how it is elected, of the relationship between the Parliament and the Executive, and right across the board. Will the Taoiseach give a commitment that the remit of the convention will be wide enough to encompass that?

Will the Taoiseach ensure, given it is to report within 12 months from its date of establishment, that immediate consultation takes place between all of the political parties in the House on the nature of the convention and the legislative basis for it? This is substantive work which should involve all Members of the House in putting a proposition such as this to the people. Rather than merely presenting a Bill as a fait accompli, perhaps it would be wise to facilitate all-party consultation and discussion on the legislation that will underpin the establishment of the constitutional convention.

I agree with that last comment. I do not see why we cannot have a proper discussion about that when it is in the interests of the country and the House and those who are elected and will be elected here in the future, and I am amenable to that.

The terms of reference will be broad enough to encompass all of these matters. I hope the constitutional convention will be a more focused and more engaging process than, for instance, the forum on Europe turned out to be when people might have lost interest for one reason or another. It will include all of those issues Deputy Martin raised about the electoral system such as the relevance of the number of Oireachtas Members elected, but I hope we can deal effectively with changes in respect of the House and the running of the House and the Members of the House. I have asked the Whip to engage with other whips as an initial point here. I would like to have real change brought about in the way the Oireachtas and the Houses do their business so that for the session following the summer recess changes are implemented. Between now and the recess, sometime towards the end of July, I hope we will hold a series of inter-party discussions with the people on a range of proposals on how to change this House, make it more relevant, more challenging, more engaging and more efficient and professional in the interests of the work that people must do. I know that Deputy Martin and, I hope, everybody else will participate fully in those discussions so that we can make the place relevant for the people whom we serve.

How does the Government propose to define the composition of the convention? I have heard various suggested comments, in terms of one third experts, one third the public via a jury system and one third Members of the Oireachtas. Will the Taoiseach give serious consideration to ensuring that elected public representatives are given a substantive input into the work of the convention not merely at the level of the Oireachtas but at local authority level, and that councillors, perhaps on a representative basis, will have the opportunity to participate in a convention of this kind as well? In all of the debate on reform of the Constitution there tends to be a theme emerging that the last to be consulted will be those who are directly elected by the people. The experience of representatives directly elected by the people is a valuable input that needs to be acknowledged and recognised for what it is notwithstanding the need for change and the need for reform and a new type of politics.

I am interested in getting greater clarity on how Seán Citizen is to be nominated to a convention of this kind. Has the Taoiseach thought that matter through yet?

I have not decided on the nature of the make up of the composition yet. As Deputy Martin will recall from being a Minister from many years, one of the weaknesses of social partnership was that the last people to be informed of the decision were Oireachtas Members. I do not envisage this would be the case with the constitutional convention. It will have an inclusivity which will allow elected Members of the Dáil, Seanad and local authorities and ordinary citizens to have their say. This can be a fundamental platform for the future, leading a democratic drive to make politics transparent, accountable and relevant to the people. I have no fixed view on the fractions or percentages mentioned; I do not know from where they came. Suffice it to say I would like to see the convention being inclusive and representing an opportunity for Seán Citizen — to whom the Deputy referred — being represented and being able to play his part, and that it would move throughout the country in the same way as the Forum on Europe and give everybody an opportunity, physically at meetings and also by the use of new communication methods, to voice their opinions. The convention would report within 12 months on the range of topics given to it.

I am not any the wiser about the constitutional convention. I understand the Taoiseach is figuring his way through its composition. Will he assure us that the convention will be all-Ireland in nature? This is a matter we have raised previously. It would be ludicrous to discuss current or future constitutional arrangements and provisions for the country if we were to approach them in a partitionist manner. As the Taoiseach works out the fractions and percentages, will he ensure that Síle Citizen gets equal billing with Seán, and that youth is considered? All other stakeholders such as NGOs and various community interests should also be involved because for this to be a dynamic process it has to be genuinely inclusive.

On the matter of the Seanad, and I am conscious that we are here today just as the election has concluded, nobody with an ounce of wit could defend the current arrangements whereby it is elected by an elite group of Deputies, councillors and third level graduates — although not all of them — and that it is then in the Taoiseach's gift to appoint 11 Members.

It is the Taoiseach's position to abolish the second Chamber. We contend that before proceeding to that we need a discussion and debate on the value of a second Chamber. I understand with such a large majority as that which the Taoiseach commands in this House, he may see it as useful to dispense with the second Chamber. I do not think he should proceed in haste. Will we have a debate on the merits of a second Chamber, albeit a radically reformed and functioning one? When the time comes for the referendum, will the people be given that option or does the Taoiseach propose to simply put the bald proposition that the Seanad as it is currently constituted be abolished?

As Deputy McDonald knows, all referendums end up with a "Yes" or "No" question, and voter is asked to put an "X" beside the box of his or her choice. The difficulty in framing the question is always with regard to the consequence of the changes that occur in the Constitution. I have made clear for some time that the Attorney General is working on a range of Articles which need to be either removed or amended. To give effect to any referendum one must produce legislation which allows for debate.

Deputy McDonald's party has had a number of Senators elected and it may not want it to fade away too quickly to give them a chance. Perhaps that is what Deputy McDonald is at. For quite a long time, my view has been that in terms of comprehensive analysis of legislation our current bicameral structure is no longer suited for its purpose. It is my view this House, as the directly elected forum of the people, will be able to perform a thorough and comprehensive analysis of legislation if the circumstances are changed, which is my intention. Legislation will be introduced to give effect to the proposal to abolish Seanad Éireann and there will be ample opportunity for the citizens to discuss it. At the end of the day, it will be the choice of the people. We can change the nature of our work in terms of drafting legislation, sending heads of Bills to committees at a much earlier stage, the process of committee work and the calling of groups, agencies and citizens before powerful legislative committees. Review clauses can be built into Bills in order to examine their effectiveness in the 12 or 18 months after they are enacted.

Seanad Éireann has never been an Upper House. It has been a second House and second Houses tend to replicate the work of the first House. It has acted as a brake in many ways. The work currently under way will be reported on as we proceed to draft the legislation necessary to give effect to that question.

Given that the Taoiseach's party also had several Members returned to the Seanad, we are not alone in that regard.

It may prove extremely short-sighted to decide that, because the Seanad has been a disaster as it is currently constituted and misused, we should use the blunt instrument of abolishing it. A more considered approach is required, including a public debate.

In regard to the Taoiseach's comment on referendums, the practice in this State has been to put a single question which seeks a "Yes" or "No" answer but there is no reason that cannot be modified. Other jurisdictions make use of preferendums and other mechanisms and I ask him to consider such alternatives. I would also like to hear his response in regard to a constitutional convention which is all-Ireland in nature.

In regard to the 11 appointments he can make to the Seanad, we spoke earlier about stuffing State boards and I assume in this era of political reform and transparency that he does not propose to stuff the Seanad with hacks or friends of the Fine Gael Party or, for that matter, the Labour Party.

I am not sure what the Deputy means by a stuffed Seanad but the Attorney General is currently examining the Constitution to determine what Articles need to be amended or removed.

I will give consideration to including a northern connection in the constitutional convention. That is an important issue and, as I previously stated, the convention will be as inclusive as I can make it. As Deputy Martin noted, it will have broad terms of reference and I hope it can complete its work within 12 months and that Deputy McDonald will participate in it.

In so far as the Taoiseach's nominees to the Seanad are concerned, the Deputy will have to wait until the Seanad convenes to find out who has been appointed.

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