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Water Charges

Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 3 May 2012

Thursday, 3 May 2012

Ceisteanna (1, 2)

Niall Collins

Ceist:

1Deputy Niall Collins asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government his estimate of the number of households that will be metered; the time frame for the roll out of metering; the costs of metering and the charges to households; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22282/12]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Brian Stanley

Ceist:

2Deputy Brian Stanley asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government if he will reconsider the proposal to introduce water meters and water charges as metering is not an option for one third of households in Dublin. [22569/12]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (47 píosaí cainte)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.

The Government considers charging based on usage the fairest way to charge for water and has decided that water meters should be installed in households connected to public water supplies. International evidence has shown that where meters have been installed, significant reductions have been achieved in the level of consumption, and this is also borne out by the water savings achieved with metering in the group water sector.

My Department estimates there are approximately 1.35 million domestic properties connected to public water supplies in Ireland. Following detailed analysis of available data, it is estimated that up to 300,000 of these households may not be metered in the initial metering programme due to either the high cost or the technical difficulty in doing so. It is not true to say these households will never be metered. I expect these households will be metered in the longer term as shared service connections are replaced and further options relating to metering apartment blocks are evaluated, including internal metering. Households which are not initially metered will pay for water on an assessed basis.

Detailed cost estimates on the metering programme have been prepared by my Department. It would not be appropriate to release these estimates in advance of the competitive procurement process. I am aware of some estimates of the cost of metering which have been reported in the media in recent months. These estimates are speculative and will be shown to be significantly overstated when the procurement of metering is completed. The metering programme will begin before the end of 2012 and will be substantially delivered within a three year period.

The Government has also decided to assign responsibility for the economic regulation of the water sector to the Commission for Energy Regulation. The primary role of the regulator will be to protect the interests of customers and to ensure a consistent and appropriate level of service is provided to customers. My Department is working with the Commission on the development of the regulatory framework for the water sector, and legislation will be prepared to provide the Commission with the necessary powers to fulfil its new role.

In the likely event the Minister's target number of houses will not be metered by 2014, what is his plan B for the project? Will he address the anomaly in the units to which he referred which cannot be metered in the short term because there is a disparity? The Minister quotes a figure of 300,000 units and the House will be aware what the executive engineer from Dublin City Council has said.

The recent census figures on which we can rely state that apartments, bed-sits and pre-1960 buildings combined come to a figure of 503,000 units. There is a fairly large discrepancy between the figure the Minister quotes and the figure the CSO quotes. Can the Minister elaborate on his statement that the units that cannot be metered in the short term would be charged on an assessed basis? Will they be means-tested? Will it be a flat rate charge? Can the Minister give Members any more detail on it? Can the Minister give the public who will face the wider metering project and the rest of us any idea on the structure of the free allocation and the pricing structure per litre above the free allocation?

The number of households that would not be metered was looked at in the context of the census data, the same as it was by those others whom Deputy Niall Collins mentioned, including the executive manager of Dublin City Council. We all were looking at the same figures. We have done a detailed analysis in the Department on the number of properties that will cause problems in the initial phase of metering. It is important to note that this figure is an estimate and it will be higher or lower. It is intended that each property will be individually examined for suitability for metering as part of the roll-out of the metering programme.

Deputy Niall Collins mentioned the media reports that one third of the houses will not be metered. My Department's analysis of the available data of property has taken into account the matters raised in the media reports, and where conventional metering installation is not possible, it is intended that alternative approaches will be considered, including a flat rate charge based on similar water usage in similar properties. For example, for housing units in apartment complexes, internal metering may be considered. Irish Water will be expected to ensure the maximum level of metering is achieved. It should fully evaluate the options for the properties where conventional meter installation will not be feasible.

The free allowance and the water pricing matters are the subject of an implementation plan, where Bord Gáis, which is the semi-State company put in charge of rolling out this project, in consultation with the regulator, will bring proposals to the Department and Government shortly. Bord Gáis is the company the Government is charging on behalf of the customer with responsibility to come to it with views about the free allowance. The Government will decide at the end of the day, in line with the programme for Government, on the free allowance and the amount that will be allowed in this case. On water pricing, we will be getting the proposals from Bord Gáis and the regulator on these matters as well in due course.

I have one more question.

I am afraid we are over time.

The Minister is taking Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.

The Minister-----

I have not yet come in.

Deputy Stanley has to come in. I asked about 2014-----

We will let Deputy Stanley in and then come back.

We can leave it until Question No. 2.

Are we taking Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together?

Then we discuss them together. Deputy Stanley should ask his question and then I will let Deputy Niall Collins in.

The Minister stated that there are in excess of 300,000 households that cannot be metered. The Dublin position has been mentioned, but would the Minister agree that this will also be a problem throughout the country?

Where there are apartments, the Minister mentioned fitting internal meters. What would happen in an apartment block where the occupants might not want meters fitted? Would somebody break down the doors?

That is what they used to do.

What would happen in the case of old housing estates in Carlow-Kilkenny, of which the Minister will be aware, and in many places throughout the State where there are pipes running at the back of houses, under garden sheds and under garden walls? Would one have to bulldoze one's way through garden sheds to try to get at these stopcocks to fit meters? These are real problems I am trying to point out to the Minister. I am trying to save him much head-on confrontation with residents. There will be many problems in trying to fit these. The senior engineer in Dublin City Council set out his stall in terms of the number of households in Dublin that cannot be fitted with meters, and he would know a thing or two about meters.

The Minister might address this issue. I have heard reports of these meters being installed in 18 months or two years. Is the Minister aware that across the water in England, there are parts that have not yet got meters? I spoke to somebody who worked in water services in England for ten years.

Questions, please.

That person told me that in their duration with Anglian Water, the company had not succeeded in completing the fitting of water meters in that time. Is the Minister aware of that? It would appear to be unworkable and impossible. Even if the Minister succeeds in having interior meters installed in apartment blocks, charging a flat fee flies in the face of the stated aim of this measure which is to conserve water. That argument does not stack up when one looks at the figures.

Does the Deputy have a question?

Does the Minister agree that if he is making a linkage between water metering and water conservation, a flat fee proposal is not in line with it?

I am surprised that Deputy Stanley would question a proposal to charge for any service considering that the average water charge per household in Northern Ireland equates to almost €1,000.

Yes, it does.

The Minister is absolutely wrong.

The exact figure is €971. I am aware this is a sensitive issue for the Deputy given that Sinn Féin purports to be all-island party.

Householders in the North have access to free rural transport, free fire services and much more besides.

The Minister should be allowed to continue without interruption.

I am also surprised that the Deputy would take the word of an executive manager of one local authority above the very detailed analysis carried out by my Department on a nationwide basis.

I have acknowledged there will be difficulties in respect of the installation of meters in a certain cohort of properties. I will not be out there installing them myself, no more than the Deputy will, but we are putting people in a position of responsibility to do that job. Approximately 200 contracts will be tendered and granted before the end of the year by the semi-State body charged with responsibility for the scheme. The installation programme will create 2,000 jobs. There is no question of it being necessary for one contract to finish before the next can proceed. Rather, the 200 contracts will be ongoing at the same time. These are the means by which we will speed up the implementation of the scheme. A public water utility, Irish Water, will be established for the purposes of implementation. Notwithstanding the difficulties that will arise, which I have acknowledged, let us give it the opportunity to fulfil its task.

I asked the Minister to outline his plan B given that I am not convinced that his Department appreciates the complexity of the project being undertaken. All informed third-party commentators are of the view that the programme will not meet its deadline of the end of 2014. There is a discrepancy between the figures from the 2011 census and those contained in the PricewaterhouseCoopers report, which relied on the 2006 census data. This has led to the uncertainty as to whether 300,000 or in excess of 500,000 units will not be included in the initial metering programme. Does the Minister have a plan B if the deadline is not met at the end of 2014?

I am surprised at the Deputy's lack of confidence in a decision made by the Government to charge a semi-State company with what is the largest project since the establishment of the ESB, namely, to ensure the provision of water supplies in adequate quantities and quality for the people of this country. I would have expected him to support that objective.

It is not a question of support or otherwise. It is reasonable to ask whether there is a plan B in the event that the deadline is not met.

I expected his support given that scheme is in line with a decision made by the previous Government in 2009.

That has nothing to do with it.

Deputy Collins must allow the Minister to reply.

There is no need for a plan B. We have made the decision to charge a semi-State body with carrying out this important work for the benefit of the people of this country. Let us give it an opportunity, through an implementation plan, to do so. Any talk of a plan B amounts to scaremongering. We are proceeding with plan A.

There is no scaremongering. People are entitled to certainty.

They will have certainty.

There is only more confusion.

I asked the Minister about the time line of 18 months to two years for rolling out metering nationally. In England, it has not been possible to do it-----

This is Question Time. Does the Deputy have a question for the Minister?

Deputy Stanley is making a valid point.

What is the situation in regard to households which have already installed meters? Does the Minister agree that all of the money being invested in the installation of meters will do nothing to fix the leaks in piping systems? Surely it would be more effective, instead of proceeding with metering, to repair those faults and roll out the neighbourhood metering system on a national basis?

Some €200 million has been spent in the past six or seven years on the rehabilitation of mains and pipe networks, with an additional €120 million allocated for this purpose this year and next. I am surprised the Deputy is not supporting this water conservation programme. I am in support of clean water, but one can only conclude, on the basis of his attitude to the septic tank provisions, that he is opposed to it. The reality is that water leakage on the customer side is not being caught, with substantial losses arising in all local authority areas. That is totally unacceptable. Our objective is to address this issue by eliminating fragmentation and establishing a single public water utility to deal with these matters once. That will ensure we have adequate quantities of quality water for consumers, particularly on the east coast where a water shortage will develop if we do not plan for it now. I am determined, together with Bord Gáis and my Government colleagues, that we will do this in the shortest period of time, notwithstanding the difficulties and hiccups that will inevitably arise along the way.

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