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Gnáthamharc

Thursday, 24 May 2012

Other Questions

Third Level Courses

Ceisteanna (6)

Billy Kelleher

Ceist:

6Deputy Billy Kelleher asked the Minister for Education and Skills the steps being taken to ensure that there are sufficient numbers of graduates with the necessary skills to work in the financial services sector in view of the fact there will be 10,000 net new jobs in that sector over the next five years; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25896/12]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (12 píosaí cainte)

In 2010 there were almost 3,000 graduates from courses in economics, finance, banking, accountancy, insurance and taxation. In addition to programmes in these core skills areas, graduates from many other disciplines also find employment in the sector. Specific funding is also provided by my Department to the Skillnets Finuas networks programme, to develop and deliver specialised training programmes for the financial services sector. Almost 500 places on the new Springboard programmes, which I announced this week, have also been provided to meet specific skills requirements identified by the expert group on future skills needs in international financial services. The future demand for ICT graduates in the financial services sector was also taken into account in the development of the targets and actions in the joint industry-Government action plan on ICT skills which I published in January.

I thank the Minister for his reply. Approximately 33,000 people are employed in more than 500 companies at the Irish Financial Services Centre. This huge sector has grown consistently and incrementally since the late 1980s. The Minister will be aware that according to the best projections, a further 10,000 jobs will be created in that sector in the coming years. We would like most of those jobs, many of which will be suitable for graduates and those with postgraduate qualifications, to be taken up by our young people. Last week, Fianna Fáil published a strategy document on tackling youth unemployment, in which we suggested that an internship programme with a particular focus on the IFSC be established. The programme could offer a range of opportunities to financial, business, legal and accounting graduates. I would like the Minister and the Department to consider a programme of that kind favourably. We have estimated that 1,000 internship places could be offered through the programme initially at relatively little cost.

I know the Deputy has been working on a plan in this regard. I have not yet seen a copy of the report he has compiled. I ask him to submit it to the Department, if possible, so I can study it.

We should examine Skillnets and the Finuas financial services programme.

There are vacancies in this sector that cannot be filled. Some of them are being filled by people who are coming from other jurisdictions. That does not make sense at a time when we have a good pool of talented and educated people in the labour market who might not have the specific skills that are required in certain sectors. We should put transition programmes in place very close to the market to enable such people to get the jobs that are on offer.

The internship programme we have suggested could be similar to the important JobBridge programme that is under way. I understand that the Finuas programme is receiving approximately €1 million in Exchequer support each year. If another €1 million could be found somewhere, it would be put to very good use. The State-owned and State-supported banks, which have been given substantial support by the Irish taxpayer, should be reminded that they need to have a role in assisting graduate employment.

They have an obligation to assist people who have relevant qualifications and need an opportunity to get experience in the financial services sector. If such people are given a chance to participate in the labour market, they will contribute handsomely to our economy in the future.

I will examine what the Deputy has suggested.

I thank the Minister.

Special Educational Needs

Ceisteanna (7, 8)

Martin Ferris

Ceist:

7Deputy Martin Ferris asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he will ensure that in the review of the school funding due to be carried out by the National Council for Special Education that no further cuts will be applied that will reduce the number of special needs assistants at schools (details supplied) in County Wexford. [25798/12]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Mick Wallace

Ceist:

22Deputy Mick Wallace asked the Minister for Education and Skills the reasons for the delays in the planned review of the special needs assistant allocation at a school (details supplied) in County Wexford which was due to take place in April; if parents and students will be informed of any changes to the SNA allocation arising out of this review before the end of the school year; if parents and students will have the right to appeal the decision of the special education needs organiser; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25926/12]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (7 píosaí cainte)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 and 22 together.

The National Council for Special Education is responsible for allocating special needs assistants to schools to support children with special educational needs. The council operates within my Department's established criteria for the allocation of such supports and within the staffing resources available to my Department. All schools, including the schools referred to in Questions Nos. 7 and 22, were advised to apply to the council for special needs support for the 2012-13 school year by 16 March 2012. In considering applications for special needs support for the new school year, the National Council for Special Education will take account of the individual care needs of all qualifying children, the supports freed up by school leavers, if any, and the identified care needs of newly enrolled children with special educational needs. A review of special needs support at the schools referred to by the Deputies will take place in the coming weeks. Schools will be advised by the council of their special needs assistant allocation for the 2012-13 school year by June of this year. The council is developing an appeals process which is intended to be in place for the 2012-13 school year allocations process.

I have a particular interest in this issue, which affects many schools throughout the country, including the two schools referred to in the question tabled by my colleague, Deputy Martin Ferris. We are calling on the Minister to reverse the cuts in funding for the autistic spectrum disorder units at Scoil Mhuire and St. Senan's national school in Enniscorthy. We commend the teachers, parents and supporters of both schools on their determination in opposing the losses of special needs assistants and teaching staff that have been inflicted on them. The decision earlier in the year not to include rural DEIS schools in the review of the cuts in teaching posts that were announced in budget 2012 has had far-reaching consequences. The special needs assistant allocations of both of these schools in County Wexford had already been slashed. Any hope that Scoil Mhuire would retain its five teaching posts was quickly dashed.

Any further cuts at Scoil Mhuire or at St. Senan's national school arising from the National Council for Special Education review would make it extremely difficult for the teachers in either school to continue to deliver the current standard of education to the children under their tutelage. The cuts that have been directed at both of these schools are threatening the tremendous progress that has been made in addressing special needs, particularly autistic spectrum disorders, and in facilitating students to overcome the difficulties associated with coming from a disadvantaged socio-economic group. One staff member has said that reductions in staff and resources are making it difficult to sustain the calibre of education offered to the approximately 560 students at Scoil Mhuire. It is absolutely vital that no more cuts are imposed in either of these schools as a result of the funding review that is being carried out by the National Council for Special Education.

I wonder what we have against children who are classified as having autistic spectrum disorders. The policy of the Department of Social Protection seems to be that the parents of children with autism are no longer entitled to domiciliary care allowance. It seems that the assessment done to determine the level of special needs assistance required by a child is based more on the availability of funding than on the level of intervention required by the child. Children with autism in my local area used to receive very few supports. In many cases, the only option was to put them into special schools. I have observed improvement after improvement over the years. It is very wrong to see those improvements being reversed. If the parents of children with autism problems continue to be financially penalised, we will return to the era when such parents had no option other than to send their children to special schools. That would be a wrong and retrograde step.

I know of the Deputy's interest in this matter. I will confine my remarks to Scoil Mhuire. I can send information on the other school to the Deputy in written form if he wishes. I know we are facing time constraints. There are 45 teachers and 17.75 special assistants at Scoil Mhuire, which had an enrolment of 559 pupils on 30 September 2010. The school's three classes for children with autism have an enrolment of 17 children. The school's special needs assistant allocation of 17.75 posts for the 2011-12 school year includes 12 special needs assistants who support the autistic spectrum disorders unit and 5.75 special needs assistants who support nine pupils with special educational needs in mainstream classes. The school's special needs assistant allocation for 2010-11 was 25.5 posts, which means there was a reduction of 7.75 special needs assistant posts at the school in September 2011. That reduction resulted from changing enrolments, diminishing care needs and the need to readjust the allocation of special needs assistant support at the school's autistic spectrum disorders unit from the model of one-to-one special needs assistant support that had developed to a model closer to the recommended ratio for the staffing of such units, which is that there should be one special needs assistant for every three pupils while taking the individual care needs of children into account. The unit currently has a ratio of more than four special needs assistants for every six pupils, which is significantly in excess of the recommended ratio, which would provide for two specials needs assistants for every six pupils with an autistic spectrum disorder, as outlined in the Department's circular 0038/10. There are also three teachers at the unit, which gives a total of 15 staff to support 17 students in the autistic spectrum disorder unit. My heart goes out to any parent who is in a situation where their child is in need of special support. In a way, they cannot get enough support and one would not be human if one did not respond in that way. However, I am not an expert in this area. We have to be guided by specialists who are under the National Council for Special Educational Needs. We implement the recommendations that they advise and they make the decisions in regard to the allocation of support services for children with special educational needs and related requirements in this area.

This is complex, very emotional and very difficult. However, we cannot ring-fence it entirely in terms of resources. Even allowing for that, as the supplementary information in this reply will indicate to the Deputy, nothing is static. There is movement in the system that has nothing to do with resources per se because of changes in the involvement. If the Deputy wishes, I will get him full details in regard to this matter and in regard to St. Senan’s school in Wexford also. I suspect Deputy Wallace would have a similar interest but I am constrained by time pressures.

I have been familiar with the two schools for a long time. I have been speaking to a number of the parents, some of whom made contact with the Minister.

They were hoping the Minister would find time, despite his busy life, to visit the school. I have heard the Minister outline the figures and I realise this whole area is a huge cost to the Department of Education and Skills. However, the situation of many of these parents and their children is difficult given the cuts they have already suffered. Their children were participating somewhat in mainstream education but that has had to stop because there has not been enough attention. While I know there is not an endless supply of money, these children are very vulnerable.

The Minister said that experts make the decisions. It would be great if the Minister could find the time to see the situation for himself to decide whether he is in agreement with the parents that they cannot suffer any more cuts. They find it hard not to cry when they are talking to me. It is very difficult, which I know the Minister understands. The parents are frustrated that they have found it very difficult to get responses from the Department. Their calls have not been returned for four months now and they feel they have been facing a wall of silence from the Department and the Government. It would be great if there were channels of communication. If the Minister could find the time to visit, it would be magnificent.

I have heard what the Deputy has suggested and I will take it into consideration.

School Accommodation

Ceisteanna (9)

Brendan Smith

Ceist:

8Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Minister for Education and Skills the position regarding the proposal to provide additional permanent accommodation at a school (details supplied) in County Cavan; if this application will be reviewed in view of the urgent need to provide much needed accommodation and in view of the growth in the pupil enrolment of that school over recent years; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25885/12]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (12 píosaí cainte)

There are five primary schools in the Virginia feeder area. While enrolments have increased over the past decade, my Department has projected that future enrolments will remain relatively stable up to 2018. The current enrolment at St. Mary's is 380 pupils, up from 350 in 2007, so, while enrolment levels have been growing at the school, they have increased by less than 10% over the last five years.

To ensure that every child has access to a school place, the delivery of projects to meet the increasing demographic demands will be the main focus for capital investment over the next five years, particularly in those areas where it has been identified that most future demographic growth will be concentrated. The project for St. Mary's will continue to progress within the context of available funding. However, due to competing demands on the capital budget, it is not possible at this time to progress the project to construction stage.

The Deputy may recall I met a delegation from this school when I was in Virginia. It is clearly a very successful and popular school and its numbers have increased. However, there are a total of five schools in the same catchment area. I suggest to the Deputy to explore the possibility of collaboration or co-operation between those five schools because it would appear to us, from where we are, that other schools are not getting the same kind of overall increase.

This school, which is accommodated in prefabs, clearly experiences major demand. I met the principal and a number of others at that time. While it may be difficult for the Deputy to contemplate, he should consider the total catchment area of Virginia to see whether there are other solutions that can overcome the constraints. At present, we have to stick to areas where there is overall demographic demand, which there is not in this catchment area.

I thank the Minister for his reply. The four other schools in that area, thankfully, have had new accommodation in recent years. The capacity of each of those schools is being maximised.

I will outline some facts which are very relevant to this school. The population of Virginia increased by 31% between 2006 and 2011.

From 2003 to 2012, the school enrolment has doubled, reaching 380. Since last September, 81 pupils have joined that school, the largest enrolment ever. There has been massive expenditure on temporary accommodation and it is now at the stage were some of the prefabs need to be replaced with additional accommodation. The project was included, as the Minister knows, in the 2011 school building programme and was at early architectural planning stage. What I and the local community want is that this project would proceed through the next stage.

The Minister was with us in Virginia. Additional permanent accommodation has been provided at all local second level schools and I was very active in support of those projects. As we all know, because of the growth of population, the pressure comes on the primary school sector in terms of accommodation earlier than on the second level sector. On a further point, 77% of the fifth and sixth class pupils in St. Mary's were born outside the parish.

I will be happy to meet the Deputy and others in that constituency. There has been a population explosion in the Virginia area because of the outer reach of the commuter belt of Dublin and all the rest. There are certain factors which are, shall we say, not normal and I would be happy to look at it in that broader sense. I recognise there is a problem which, if not necessarily unique, is quite acute in the area.

To give one other example, 52 new local authority houses have been built and are about to be allocated. I know from my constituency work that many young people will be moving into the area with families, which we welcome. In a county that was ravaged by emigration in the past, I am particularly proud of the fact there has been huge growth in population in recent years throughout County Cavan, particularly in that area of the county.

With regard to the systems for projections now used by the Department, the geographical information system, GIS, has its strengths but there is one issue which the Minister and his officials would want to bear in mind. The GIS figures fail to take into account when a family moves from one location to another. The child benefit payment does not require a change of address so the GIS capacity and facility is only relevant if the bank details change. When I was a student in Dublin, I opened a bank account and I have not changed from that bank since. Most people do not change their banks because we never stand in a bank today-----

For a Cavan man, it would be a very valuable bank account.

We come from a poor area, not from Deputy Naughten's rich pasturelands of south Roscommon. The issue of the GIS is one on which we need to be careful, as I know from speaking to many of the local people in Virginia. The Minister met Fr. Dermot Prior, the chairperson of the board of management, and the principal, Mr. Peadar Quealy. The board of management, the parents association and the principal are all very committed to St. Mary's national school and are anxious that it would get the new permanent accommodation it needs. It was built for six teachers whereas there are now a total of 20 teachers plus nine support staff. The situation is practically intolerable for the school community, both pupils and staff. The concerns of the parents are-----

I invite the Deputy to try to address those, shall we say, statistical deficits because there are anomalies, as I heard at the time. If that information can be improved or clarified in terms of its accuracy, we will see what that produces. I am sympathetic to the Deputy's point because I have seen this at first hand.

We would be very glad of that. Hopefully, the application can be reviewed with a view to making progress to construction stage as soon as possible.

Schools Building Projects

Ceisteanna (10, 11)

Peadar Tóibín

Ceist:

9Deputy Peadar Tóibín asked the Minister for Education and Skills his views on whether his Department’s five year building plan is discriminatory against second level Gaelscoileanna. [25775/12]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Peadar Tóibín

Ceist:

38Deputy Peadar Tóibín asked the Minister for Education and Skills if his Department has attempted to assess the demographic need for second level Gaelscoileanna in the various areas of the country; and if this has been included in his Department’s five year education building programme. [25774/12]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (3 píosaí cainte)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 9 and 38 together.

The five-year plan is not discriminatory against second level gaelcholáistí. I advise the Deputy that there are ten major building projects included in the five-year plan for post-primary schools delivering tuition through the medium of Irish. In June last year I announced a new process and criteria for the establishment of new second level schools. As part of this, an initial decision was to be made on whether the new schools would operate through the medium of Irish or English, having regard to existing and planned all-Irish provision at primary and second level in the areas concerned. Three of the 17 new post-primary schools to be established by 2014 will be gaelcholáistí. In addition, the five-year plan contains a further seven major projects for schools that provide for tuition through the medium of Irish. These projects will provide additional places to meet future demand for tuition through the medium of Irish as part of the overall five-year plan priority to meet demographic need.

Some 27% of primary and 38% of secondary Irish-medium schools are on the waiting list for the refurbishment of buildings, yet they have not been included in the five-year plan. Without inclusion in the programme, many of these schools face an uncertain future. It is unacceptable that 60% of Irish-medium schools established in the past 25 years are in temporary accommodation. These are in addition to those schools that have secured permanent buildings but have since outgrown them.

I understand that inclusion in the building plan is based primarily on attendance numbers and populations. It seems to me that particular consideration should apply to the Irish medium sector, otherwise the system is inherently and systematically flawed and discriminatory against second level gaelscoileanna. The same argument could be made with regard to minority faith schools. This failure to include an adjusted criteria for Irish-medium sector education goes against the ethos of the 20-year strategy for the Irish language, which sets to defend the Irish-medium schools. The unsuitability of many gaelscoil buildings is a significant barrier which greatly restricts the growth of the schools and subsequently the expansion of the wider Irish language community.

We could give a number of examples, including Gaelscoil Mhic Amhlaigh in Cnoc na Cathrach in Galway. It serves an expanding population and already accommodates 450 students and with improved facilities it could significantly increase its pupil intake. However, it is not included in the capital building programme. When the Minister of State, Deputy Cannon, was questioned on the matter, he stated there would need to be a new primary school east and west of Galway City, but he refused to clarify whether those new schools would cater for children wishing to be taught as Gaeilge. We need to take another look at the role of the gaelscoileanna in terms of the 20-year plan for the promotion of the Irish language. These schools are not the same as other schools. Their catchment areas are different and they do not have a 100% catchment population on which to draw. We need an adjustment of the criteria.

I recognise what the Deputy is saying and refer to my earlier response. There is more in the pipeline now in terms of gaelcholáistí at second level than was previously the case. The future for the provision of Irish-medium teaching in both the primary and secondary sector is quite healthy. The difficulty, as the Deputy rightly pointed out, is that the catchment area, by definition, is different from that of people who wish to be taught through the medium of English.

Religious and Sexual Discrimination

Ceisteanna (12)

Seán Crowe

Ceist:

10Deputy Seán Crowe asked the Minister for Education and Skills when amendments will be made to Section 37 of the Employment Equality Act, in order to remove discrimination towards gay and lesbian teachers and teachers whose beliefs may differ from those of school trustees, in view of the fact that education institutions are exempted from the provisions of the Act on the grounds of protecting their religious ethos. [25772/12]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (5 píosaí cainte)

The programme for Government states that people of non-faith or minority religious backgrounds and publicly identified LGBT people should not be deterred from training or taking up employment as teachers in the State. Accordingly, when Senator Power introduced a Bill to the Seanad, I was happy to see if it could form the basis for an all-party approach. I raised the matter with my colleague the Minister for Justice and Equality who has responsibility for the equality legislation. From engagement with the Office of the Attorney General, it has emerged that there are complex legal issues. Our Departments will continue to engage with the Attorney General's office on this. The matter will also be referred to the new Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission which will come into existence later this year and it will engage on our proposals which were published early in the new year. I remain fully committed to reform in this area and when we return with legislative proposals, I hope we can make progress on a cross-party basis.

Last Thursday was International Day against Homophobia and Transphobia and the theme of this year's event was combating homophobic and transphobic bullying in our schools. Rather fittingly, on the same day as that set aside to highlight awareness of this issue, the inaugural meeting of the anti-bullying forum also took place at the Department of Education and Skills headquarters in Marlborough Street.

While Irish society has generally become more accepting of homosexuality, many gay teachers in schools still risk falling victim to discrimination or to being put in the position where their job is at risk should their sexuality become known. It is unacceptable in this day and age that any teacher should risk facing dismissal on the grounds of sexual orientation. Regrettably, this is currently the case because of the existence of an archaic law that permits employers to penalise employees for actions that supposedly undermine their religious standards. The sexual preference of teachers should have no bearing on their ability to fulfil their role as educators while at the same time adhering to the religious ethos of the school where they teach. Despite this, Irish schools can often be hostile places for people who are gay. Many gay teachers risk discrimination, with some being passed over for promotion. Others have been verbally abused and have found themselves the victims of jokes and bullying. Where a school has an ethos that is hostile to gay and lesbian people, this can have implications for pupils, who risk being bullied should they disclose their sexuality. This can lead to depression, self-harm and suicide.

I welcome the Bill that recently came before the Seanad which makes amendments to the Employment Equality Act and will, hopefully, address homophobic discrimination. I also wish to acknowledge the Minister's commitment to tackling this issue. No-one employed in a school setting should be targeted or victimised because of his or her sexual orientation.

We are all ad idem on this and I commend the work Senator Averil Power did in the Seanad in this regard. There are complexities around this issue because the Bill it is proposed to amend was referred to the Supreme Court in the first instance and so has the stamp of constitutionality, which is unusual for legislation. Therefore, we are advised legally that we must be extremely careful in how we propose to amend that legislation. This issue is also of concern to the Irish Human Rights Commission, which is now being amalgamated with the Equality Authority. This will occur later this year. The Minister for Justice and Equality and I have decided, in consultation with the Attorney General, that we should refer this issue, on which there is cross-party commitment to getting a resolution, to the new commission and to ensure further legal consideration is given to it so as to maintain the balance of rights that are there in terms of schools and ethos.

It is more important that we get this legally right than that we get it done early. I am committed to getting it done by the end of this year and to bringing it forward then. I share the concerns expressed in the other parts of the Deputy's comments.

I attended a briefing in Leinster House when Senator Averil Power published the legislation and the representative groups there were very appreciative of the work that had been done. Also, the Minister announced at the teachers' conferences last Easter that he would bring forward the legislation on an all-party basis and this was warmly welcomed. I appeal to the Minister to ensure the legislation is finalised and brought to the Oireachtas as soon as possible.

I will be happy to try to do that.

Pupil-Teacher Ratios

Ceisteanna (13)

Denis Naughten

Ceist:

11Deputy Denis Naughten asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he will review his policy on the staffing ratios of small rural schools; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25722/12]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (9 píosaí cainte)

Some 73 small primary schools were originally due to lose classroom teachers in September 2012 as a result of the budget measure to increase the relevant pupil-teacher thresholds. The staffing appeals board considered appeals from all of the 73 schools that could demonstrate their projected enrolments for September 2012 were sufficient to allow them retain their classroom teachers over the longer term. A total of 35 small schools had their appeals provisionally upheld by the appeals board, subject to confirmation that their actual enrolments in September 2012 reach the required level. In these extremely challenging times, all public servants are being asked to deliver services on a reduced level of resources and teachers in small schools cannot be immune from this requirement.

We all recognise that nobody can be immune from the austerity required to balance our books. However, does the Minister accept that rural schools are a vital aspect of their communities and, as such, we need to approach this issue sensibly? Other options for improving efficiency could be investigated. For example, his Department spends €2 million on issuing paper pay slips to staff. This is well in excess of the savings projected this year in respect of the loss of teachers in rural schools. I ask him to review the matter and put it to the schools to come up with local solutions. Each of these schools is unique and local solutions may reduce costs while also benefitting the community.

I am sympathetic to the Deputy's argument. The phrase generally used is "small rural schools" but the official terminology refers to the two categories of "schools" and "small schools". There are small schools with as few as two teachers in Dublin and other urban areas, which is nonsense. The value for money report, which is assessing approximately 600 schools with 50 or fewer pupils, has been delayed in the Department due to volumes of work. It is due to be published shortly and we should have a comprehensive debate on it. The delay arose because of the need to assess comprehensive data on school provision. The pattern of school provision reflected a different time and age, when rural population densities were much higher than they are at present and when students travelled to school by foot. Of necessity, the catchment area was much tighter.

I expect that we will have to continue to sustain isolated communities wherever in Ireland they may be. Parents are legally required to send their children to school for a specified period and there is a constitutional obligation to provide for primary education. The categories that I imagine will emerge at the end of this process will be "isolated schools" and "schools". Some kind of support will have to be provided for isolated schools. In the meantime I encourage schools which have the option to amalgamate, co-operate or otherwise cluster to do so.

We are engaging with the Scottish authorities to find out how they are coping with similar problems, particularly in the highlands where the population density is much lower than in Ireland.

I welcome the discussions that are taking place with the Scottish authorities as a move in the right direction. It is difficult at present for small rural schools to make plans. They are haemorrhaging populations through emigration and will also have to deal with the impact of the changes to school transport policy which come into effect next September. It is difficult to plan when one is standing on shifting sand.

If a stay of execution was given to allow them to consider the potential for clustering and demographic changes in the short to medium term, particularly in the context of school transport changes, they would be in a better position to assess their viability. I fear that in some communities children as young as four will have to be bussed or driven long distances on bad roads during the winter. That should not be the objective of our education system.

One of the reasons we outlined how the process would unfold over three years was to enable rural schools in sparsely populated areas to realise that the policy is not a once off decision.

The retrospective aspect of it has hurt communities the most.

It probably has jump started it but the process will continue over the next two school years, including the one that is about to commence in September. School communities in these areas are on notice that they should start planning.

With regard to rationalisation of the transport system, I am more than happy to speak to the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills, Deputy Cannon. I was presented with contradictory information on the transport system in south County Donegal when I visited the Finn Valley last Friday. We are open to practical solutions where the same bus passes by different schools.

The small schools in urban and outer suburban areas are on clear notice that there is no going back from the current position because they have options. The options are less evident in the communities to which Deputy Naughten refers. This is why we will have to consider a definition for isolated schools - I am speaking aloud rather than setting out a formal policy - as distinct from small schools and other schools. This country eliminated more than 2,000 schools in the 1960s and 1970s for all sorts of reasons and nobody wants to go back there. Whatever we do in the future, it has to work for families, pupils and educational outcomes.

If communities can come up with solutions that bring about savings can they be constructively examined by the Department so that we do not have one size fits all approach?

Yes, they can.

Written Answers follow Adjournment.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.45 p.m. until Wednesday, 6 June at 10.30 a.m.

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