Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 27 February 2013
3. Deputy Tom Fleming asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if he will ensure that public bodies that engage the services of legal firms and legal practitioners are compelled to publish annual payments made to each legal firm or legal persons, relating to each calendar year; and the systems in place to monitor this and ensure that public moneys are not being wasted. [10587/13]
Amharc ar fhreagraIn principle, I am in favour of the annual publication of details of the cost of payments by public bodies to legal firms and practitioners. However, there needs to be an examination of how this is to be achieved. For example, should the information be included in annual reports of public bodies or made available in other sources of information? To what degree should the details of individual payments be divulged? The publication of information concerning payments may need to take account of the needs of commercial confidentiality in the context of any competitive procurement arrangements that might be in place. I envisage that my Department will, in consultation with relevant Departments and offices, set down guidelines on the level of detail to be divulged by public bodies on their legal payments and devise systems for monitoring adherence to such guidelines. The publication of such information would not of itself lead to a reduction in expenditure on legal costs. Such reductions have been effected in recent years through multiple across-the-board reductions in the level of fees paid by Departments and offices and the development of competitive tendering in the procurement of legal services by public bodies.
I thank the Minister for his reply. Departments have historically paid exorbitant legal fees. The HSE probably has the highest expenditure to legal firms. The payment of crazy sums of money was recently revealed in The Sunday Business Post on foot of freedom of information requests. Some €71.5 million has been paid to solicitors' firms. One firm received €11.5 million in a 12-month period in 2012. A barrister received approximately €968,000 in 2010. Child care proceedings are proving to be very lucrative. A top-earning barrister received €1.3 million from the HSE in 2012. A host of other payments was highlighted by the newspaper. What procedures does the Minister intend to put in place to deal with this significant draining of the State's scarce resources? It is way over the top. Procedures will have to be put in place. At the moment, the legal sections of Departments deal with legal advisers, make arrangements and negotiate with legal firms. We need to get senior executives from the Departments and the HSE highly involved in this.
There is a great deal of merit in what the Deputy has said. Some of the legal fees that have come into the public domain in recent years, such as tribunal fees and fees for legal cases taken by the HSE and others, are disturbingly high. That is why we have embarked on a new procurement regime. The Office of the Chief State Solicitor has taken a number of initiatives in this regard. It would be useful to bring the details of these payments into the public domain, as suggested in the Deputy's question. I will try to ensure that process is concluded this year. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Hayes, is devising procurement regimes that will save money across all areas of public procurement. As the Deputy is aware, we have appointed a new chief procurement officer. The area of legal fees needs particular and focused attention. I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. I assure him that the advice he has given will be heeded.
The Minister needs to cap the fees by setting a maximum fee for senior counsel and junior counsel.
I hope the Minister will advertise publicly for the services of senior counsel and solicitors who will be placed on a panel to act for the State. We recently learned that child services were being fleeced in terms of legal fees at a time of great financial scarcity in that sector.
Again, I agree entirely with the Deputy. The way to go is not so much to have a cap because, in a way, it is a stab in the dark, but to have true competitive tendering. I know competitive frameworks are being devised in order to do this. I have looked, for example, at how some of the big American companies do it. They have an open on-line tendering competition to avail of reduced legal fees. They put up the opening bid and legal firms have a period of time in which to bid and offer a reduction. While that might be one way to go, we want to ensure the best advice is available to the State and its agents. In any case, the devising of a system to address the concerns of the Deputy is certainly in hand.
