Niall Collins
Ceist:1. Deputy Niall Collins asked the Minister for Justice and Equality his plans for Garda recruitment in 2013; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20855/13]
Amharc ar fhreagraThursday, 2 May 2013
Ceisteanna (1, 3)
Seamus Healy
Ceist:3. Deputy Seamus Healy asked the Minister for Justice and Equality when he intends to recommence recruitment to An Garda Siochána; when he intends to re-open the Garda College in Templemore, County Tipperary for Garda training; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20977/13]
Amharc ar fhreagraFreagraí ó Béal (34 píosaí cainte)
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 3 together.
There are currently just under 13,400 members of the Garda Síochána, along with approximately 2,000 civilian support staff and 1,100 reserve gardaí. While it is difficult to predict with any certainty the number of Garda members who will retire in any year, given that members with 30 years' service may retire on full pension after the age of 50, a retirement rate in line with recent experience could see Garda strength approaching 13,000 by the end of this year. I have said that I would not like to see Garda strength fall below that level and I will bring proposals to Government shortly in respect of maintaining Garda operational strength.
However, it is of course the case that a resumption of Garda recruitment, at a time when both overall headcount and the size of the pay bill in the public service must be reduced, would have financial implications that must be managed within the overall resources available to Government. It is not credible for any Deputy to pay lip-service to the need for budgetary discipline while at the same time implying through questions like these that the cost of significant elements of the public service can be increased without regard for the financial consequences. In that context, it is important that the current impasse in terms of the Labour Relations Commission, LRC, proposals on saving €1 billion from the public service pay bill, including €300 million this year, be first resolved. As Deputies will be aware, the LRC is currently exploring with all of the parties concerned the potential for such a resolution. I hope that there is a positive outcome to that process.
I also remind the House that the expenditure ceilings for the years 2012-14 planned by the last Government would have resulted in an average of €90 million less for the Garda Síochána budget each of the years 2012, 2013 and 2014 than is the case under this Government. Such a scenario would have necessitated a significant further reduction in Garda strength, not an increase, and perhaps Deputies might not lose sight of that when discussing this issue.
Any resumption of Garda recruitment will have implications for the Garda College in Templemore, but I assure the House that the Garda College remains fully open as the main training centre for the Garda Síochána. The chief superintendent in charge of the college and the members of the team there develop, co-ordinate and direct all training interventions up to the most senior ranks. The college provides operationally focused training across a range of areas, including firearms training, driver training, public order training, operational skills programmes, management development programmes and, of course, Garda Reserve training. In 2012, training was provided in the college for over 5,000 members of the Garda Síochána, and I can confirm for the House that the college will continue to provide a centre of excellence for training for members of the Garda force.
The time has come to stop dodging the issue of recommencing Garda recruitment and training. We have discussed it many times in the House. The Minister indicated that recruitment would recommence, but in no way was recruitment predicated on the passing of the Croke Park II ballot by the unions. Croke Park II was a complete shambles and the Government took it for granted that public servants would buy into the proposals. The Government sought to rely on some of the larger trade unions to get its proposals over the line. Listening to a number of Ministers spinning the story that the deal was fair and proportionate even before the details were published, or even before they had read the details agreed at Lansdowne House, was distasteful.
If the numbers of the force drop below 13,000, the new rostering system will not function. The Minister has sought to trumpet that new system as one of the innovations of his smarter policing reforms.
A question please, Deputy.
The Minister has still not defined for the House what smarter policing entails. Recruitment into the Defence Forces is continuing and the Minister has not nailed his colours to the mast as regards his preference for the minimum complement of the force. He has stated he would like to see it remain at 13,000. This is like a wet paper bag, in that one could just tear it apart. What is the Minister's position on the question of the level at which the numbers of the force should be held? Is it his position that recruitment is contingent on some form of agreement of Croke Park II? What is the timeframe? Clearly, the Minister did not have a plan B for the Croke Park II exercise.
Will the Minister provide the House with some degree of clarity? He is constantly dodging and weaving. He is like the proverbial goal posts, in that he moves around the pitch every time someone tries to take a shot and tie him down.
Please, Deputy. I must call the Minister and then Deputy Healy.
The Minister is usually the type of man who digs in. This time, he is the type of man who engages in U-turns.
The Deputy has yet again illustrated that he has a neck as thick as a rhinoceros's behind, talking about dodging and weaving-----
I am sorry, but on a point of order, that is an exceptionally personal insult.
No, we will not-----
I could liken the Minister to a lot of characters.
Deputy, please.
He should be man enough to enter the Chamber and engage on the issues while refraining from making personal insults. He personally insults everyone. It is why he is off-side with everyone, even the Judiciary, his former colleagues.
Please, the Deputy should resume his seat. The Minister and Deputy Healy are yet to contribute.
The Minister should address the issue, not me.
The Minister has the floor.
I am sorry if I touched a sensitive zone.
No, the Minister did not.
The Deputy accused me of dodging and weaving on issues-----
Absolutely.
-----and I am entitled to respond. He is classically dodging, weaving and trying to reinvent history.
No, I am not.
The simple reality is that, under the agreement Fianna Fáil entered into with the troika, there would have been - I emphasise this - €90 million per year less available to An Garda Síochána for 2012-----
No, there would not.
-----2013 and 2014. That is factual.
It is not.
It is a factual matter that the Deputy seeks to avoid dealing with and dodge. Indeed, his leader, Deputy Martin, seeks to do that while pretending a concern for recruitment to An Garda Síochána so as either to con members of the Garda force about the level of Fianna Fáil's commitment or to mislead the general public disingenuously. The reality is, I have said - and I repeat - that I do not want to see the Garda force drop below 13,000, but I cannot have additional members recruited to the Garda force unless I have the funds-----
The Minister does not want or he will not?
-----to pay the salaries that must be paid. I remained quiet while the Deputy was asking his questions of me. He is great at asking questions, but the truth is that he has no answers. He does not like my answers, which is why he feels the need to interrupt. The simple reality is that we have provided the funding to An Garda Síochána to preserve numbers at a higher level than was envisaged by the Deputy's party in government.
His party in government envisaged the numbers being down to 13,000 by the end of 2012. However, his party in government had no financial allocations that would facilitate any recruitment in 2013. We managed to maintain numbers at 13,400 at the commencement of this year and we now have to address the issue, namely, the gap of €300 million that must be addressed in the context of the public sector wage bill. I cannot be blind to that. It is my hope that the further discussions taking place under the aegis of the Labour Relations Commission will prove to be successful or helpful in addressing these matters.
These are issues on which my Cabinet colleagues must reflect, following upon the further discussions that are taking place. I as Minister have to ensure that when we commence a recruitment campaign, which we will do, I have the funding to pay the salaries of those who are recruited to An Garda Síochána. Unlike the Deputy, I cannot magic up funds that do not exist. It was that type of politics that got this State into the mess we have been cleaning up.
The public is entitled to effective policing. Unfortunately, we are fast approaching, if we have not already reached, a situation whereby the effectiveness of policing is being called into question. I refer in particular to the non-replacement of gardaí, the retirement of gardaí and the fact that we have no recruits in the training college in Templemore. There is a concern generally about policing but a particular concern has been expressed to me by gardaí about community policing. That aspect of policing is not anything like as effective as it was in the past.
Could the Deputy frame a question please?
There are either no or very few dedicated community gardaí as they are being called here, there and everywhere to cover other areas. There is an essential need for community gardaí to talk, interact, liaise with and get to know young people in order to get them on board at an early age. The community garda system is in danger of breaking down.
Does the Deputy have a question please?
The Minister said he has a difficulty with money but money is available. The Government has told us that the promissory note deal has saved approximately €1 billion a year, together with the restructuring of loans. Could he immediately recommence Garda recruitment and re-open the college in Templemore for the training of garda recruits as a matter of urgency?
I entirely agree with the Deputy. The public is entitled to effective policing. The public is getting effective policing because if the Deputy examines the Central Statistics Office figures, the most recent figures published show that crime is effectively down in 11 of the 14 crime categories. In the context of burglary, if one compares the last quarter of 2012 with the last quarter of 2011, there was a reduction of 11% in the number of burglaries that took place in the State. In the context of the interventions that have taken place, the targeted operations by An Garda Síochána have been extremely effective in addressing issues of criminality in the State. The Garda Síochána, and in particular the Garda Commissioner and those working with him, have my full support in the important work they are doing.
I wish that we were in a different environment, that we were flaithiúlach with money and that we did not have a fiscal and economic crisis for the Government to address. I also wish that in 2013 I did not have a budget in my Department which has €163 million less available across the entire justice sector when compared with the funding available to me in 2011. Unfortunately, a magic pot of money does not exist. There is an obligation on the State to bring our public expenditure in the context of the public wage bill down and under control. It is in the interests of the entire country that we achieve that outcome so that we resolve our fiscal difficulties and that we can focus entirely on economic growth. That is an issue that is central to the objectives of the Government: to get people back into employment and to reduce public expenditure. I want to get people recruited to the Garda force. I can say that categorically to the Deputy but I cannot do that responsibly until I know for certain that the funding is available to pay the salaries of the new recruits I want to see being trained in Templemore college.