Other Questions
6. Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Minister for Education and Skills the way he can improve the provision of special needs services to post-primary students who require them; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32258/13]
Amharc ar fhreagra20. Deputy Dara Calleary asked the Minister for Education and Skills when the working group to review special education will report; the key priorities the group is addressing; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32254/13]
Amharc ar fhreagraI propose to take Questions Nos. 6 and 20 together.
The NCSE recently published its policy advice on supporting children with special educational needs. This report makes a number of recommendations as to how students with special needs, including post-primary students, might best be supported in the future. My Department is currently considering the full range of the 28 recommendations.
The NCSE has recommended that a new model should be developed for allocating special needs teaching resources to mainstream schools to ensure that such resources are targeted at those children who need them most.
I have requested the NCSE to establish immediately a working group to develop a proposal for consideration in regard to the new allocation model. Mr. Eamon Stack, chairperson of the NCSE and former chief inspector in my Department, has been appointed to chair the working group. The group, which will include parents, will begin its work immediately and will report progress on the proposed new model by the end of September. The NCSE expects to complete its work by February 2015.
I thank the Minister for his reply. My party has welcomed that report. We believe massive progress has been made on special education in the past 15 years in particular. An examination of the way we allocate resources is very important but it is crucial that we ensure it does not lead to any reduction in the resources and money provided nor any reduction of the services to students who need them. I am aware there was much concern following the increased demand on the system this year in particular.
There has been much evidence in recent years showing increased numbers of students with special needs leaving post-primary mainstream schools for special schools. According to research, academic factors were cited as the main reason for students leaving mainstream education, with the students unable to cope with the workload and the lack of support available to deal with emotional and behavioural problems. We have yet to see the same revolution that is taking place in special needs education at primary level happen at second level to the same extent.
What timeline does the Minister have in place for that report? Does he envisage it will be a report that will address the issue of improving the delivery of special education at second level? There is to be a preliminary report from the chairperson of the review, Eamon Stack, in September but when does the Minister expect the final report and what timeline does he expect following that for any potential change which may emanate from that?
The first deadline, so to speak, in the system is the end of September this year. I hope the conclusions of that interim report will put us in a better place with regard to giving the Deputy an accurate forecast as to when the complete report would be ready. As I said in my formal reply, the NCSE advises me that it will be early in 2015. That is a long way away and I would like to see changes begin to happen sooner but I am not in a position to anticipate what those changes would be until I get the interim report at the end of September this year.
I thank the Minister for that reply. It leaves a lot to be desired in terms of ensuring smooth transition from primary level to secondary level. Has the Minister undertaken any initiatives or any policy change he is working on, apart from the overall review the National Council for Special Education has been tasked with, to try to enhance the smooth switch-over from primary to secondary level for the students affected?
As the Deputy is aware, this is a complex area. The existing model of allocation of resources and the way the system is functioning is effectively 20 years old, and much has happened in the areas of research and experience in similar administrations across the world. I asked the NCSE over a year ago to examine the allocation model we have discussed. I got a report in the middle of May, and I welcome the Deputy's party's support for its broad thrust, but it contains 28 recommendations which have major implications in terms of how best they should be implemented and the best model of allocation of resources.
There is also the question of considering outcomes as distinct from inputs in order to see whether the model is working in the way we want it to work and whether we are ensuring that youngsters in their mid-teens are developing the skill sets they require in order to continue in the mainstream system. All of these are specialist matters and I am not qualified to provide a professional opinion on them. We must depend on people examining best practice in other countries and, given the circumstances in which we find ourselves, recommending what we might do. Other than what I said with regard to what will happen in September, I am not in a position to provide any more definite information.
7. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked the Minister for Education and Skills the number of resource teachers that will lose their jobs or have their teaching hours reduced in the 2013/14 academic year; if he will confirm that principals and school boards of management have the flexibility to employ mainstream teachers without full-time timetables into roles that should be filled by specially trained resource teachers. [32206/13]
Amharc ar fhreagraResource teaching allocations are being preserved at 2012-13 school year levels. I do not, therefore, anticipate any significant change in the overall number of resource teachers. The arrangements for the deployment of individual teachers within each school to undertake resource and mainstream provision are dealt with at local school level. It has been the policy of my Department for some time that only qualified and registered teachers should be employed by schools. This is set out most recently in circular letters 31/2011 and 0025/2013. Current recruitment procedures direct schools to ensure that teachers, including resource teachers, proposed for appointment to publicly paid posts must be registered with the Teaching Council and have qualifications appropriate to the sector and suitable to the posts for which they are proposed.
I wish to focus on the position at post-primary level, if possible. When I was researching this matter, I discovered that a circular relating to primary schools and the allocation of learning support and resource teachers was issued by the Department. I also became aware of that the general allocation and low-incidence hours can be combined. In the context of post-primary schools which are over quota, is there a policy or circular which states that individual schools can allocate hours to mainstream teachers as opposed to resource teachers? I am aware of this happening at a particular school in Dublin which was over quota and where a resource teacher lost her position. What policy or circular governs the allocation of resource teaching hours at post-primary level?
I am not clear if I fully understand the Deputy's question. Is he referring to a situation where, as a result of a change in the number of pupils, the resource teacher was no longer required and that the school was over quota or is he referring to one where, because of a fall in overall numbers, the school was over quota in the context of its contingent of mainstream teachers and that in order for a particular teacher to remain in the school, he or she would have been given responsibility for resource teaching activities?
I am referring to the latter. As a result of changes in the pupil-teacher ratio, the school was going to lose a mainstream teacher so a decision was taken at local level to retain that teacher who then assumed responsibility for some resource teaching activities and the dedicated resource teacher lost her position. Are decisions of this nature made at the discretion of individual schools or does a departmental circular or policy govern the position?
I wish to inquire about circular 07/2012, which relates to resource and learning support hours. All-girls schools are only entitled to four hours per week, whereas all-boys schools are entitled to five. Will the Minister indicate whether he is going to change this policy in order to equalise the position between all-girls and all-boys schools?
Will the Minister indicate why schools and principals were only informed last week about the allocation of resource teaching hours and those relating to special needs assistants, SNAs, for the coming school year? I understand that the allocation regarding resource teaching was available four weeks in advance of the provision relating to SNAs. Why were both not released together?
I will be obliged to obtain specific information in respect of the question Deputy O'Brien posed. I do not have the full details in my possession and I would not be able to offer an explanation without them. I do not understand the reason for the discrimination or difference regarding the allocation of five hours to all-boys schools and four to all-girls schools. I will obtain that information for Deputy Lawlor. In light of his knowledge of the education sector, I do not doubt that what he has outlined is the situation.
In the context of the announcements relating to SNAs and resource teachers, it has always been the case that the total package is made public at the same time but I accept that clarity emerges sooner in respect of one side of the equation. I will obtain further information on that matter for Deputy McConalogue. To the best of my knowledge, SNA and resource teaching allocations have always been announced together. This is because these allocations both relate to the same special needs space. When all the details relating to both are obtained, the announcements relating to the allocations are made at the same time.
It was reported widely in the newspapers that the Minister's Department specifically asked the National Council for Special Education not to release the resource teaching allocations for a period of three to four weeks. Those allocations only arrived after the commencement of the school holidays. This has created immense difficulties in the context of trying to match up resource teaching hours among schools. As the Minister is aware, it is often the case that two, three or four schools may be obliged to come together in order to make up a resource teaching post. I am of the view that the resource teaching allocations should have been announced earlier. I was not aware that the previous practice was to announce them in conjunction with those relating to SNAs. I was of the view that in previous years the allocations had been announced much earlier. Perhaps the Minister might provide further information on that matter.
The precise details sought by the Deputy are not contained in the supplementary information provided to me. It is my understanding that they were announced conterminously - that is, at the same time - in the past. I will obtain the exact information relating to this matter and relay it to the Deputy.
8. Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Education and Skills the basis on which he decided teachers would correct the junior certificate examination work of their own students and schools would provide their own individual certification. [32005/13]
Amharc ar fhreagra
Evidence has repeatedly shown that "unless the examination changes, nothing else will." Ireland is highly unusual in international terms in having externally set, moderated and marked examinations at the end of lower secondary school. As some 90% of students now complete senior cycle, the junior certificate is no longer a high-stakes examination for the overwhelming majority of students. Treating it as such has been shown to have an unintended negative backwash effect on teaching, learning and assessment in the classroom. The new school certificate and report will reflect the learning of students across the three-year cycle. This reporting method will be much more analogous to the current reporting system used at primary level - which contemplates the holistic experience of students - and will give a much more rounded picture of student achievement.
I cannot agree with the Minister of State's assertion that the junior certificate is not a high-stakes examination. He ought to visit second level schools when students are preparing to sit that examination, which is a high-stakes proposition for those students and their teachers. I am still not convinced that what is proposed will lead to benefits for students. At present, teachers correct homework and other assignments and also Christmas and summer examinations. They are well used to doing so and they keep records of results etc. Those records form the basis for the discussions which take place at parent-teacher meetings. I have spoken to those in the teaching profession and they are all satisfied that we have an examination that is fair and that every student is treated in the same way because the process is anonymous. There is great benefit in that. I am still trying to figure out how the envisaged new system will benefit students. What the Minister of State is suggesting happens all the time in schools. Teachers correct homework and they talk to students and their parents.
Teachers are not averse to correcting. I have difficulties, as have many schools, with the proposed new school-based certificate because the certificates awarded by certain schools will be seen as being more prestigious than those awarded by others. We are aware that there is not a level playing field in the area of education and I am of the view that the proposed school-based certificate could give rise to even greater inequality. There is a very fair appeals system in place at present. Will an appeals system be put in place in respect of the new school-based certificate and report? It is my opinion that what is proposed is going to lead to an enormous increase in the workload of both schools and the education system. Those are my main reservations.
The system we have is very fair and it is anonymous and students buy into it. It is very good so why are we changing it? I am not convinced. I think they are getting this holistic stuff from what goes on in schools anyway.
I too have grave concerns about the way the Minister is reforming the junior certificate. There is a need for an impartial examination which can have a benefit in ensuring standards throughout the country. That is crucial. As Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan pointed out, teachers routinely correct examinations. In terms of whether the junior certificate is a high stakes examination anymore, it is important we do not set it as one or encourage students to prioritise it in terms of being of major importance in the context of the examination results. However, it is crucial in terms of ensuring standards and giving students a fair benchmark of their progression. My concern is that if we remove it, how do we ensure uniform standards? If the school is doing the correcting, how do we ensure there are not real differences between how schools correct the examinations? There will always be an incentive for schools to mark examinations in a certain way.
Britain is moving away from this and is looking at more standard examinations at junior certificate level. Junior certificate reform is welcome but there are serious concerns about that aspect of it.
In general terms, we understand the concerns expressed by the Deputies. There is no intention whatsoever to move away from the model of interaction with parents and that kind of continual monitoring of the students' work and their interaction in the classroom and so on with teachers. We want to ensure we continue to have standardised testing in areas such as English reading, science and mathematics, so those standards are in place, and to have a set of guidelines in place to monitor the quality assurance aspect of this. We want to ensure guidelines on moderation, which will be confirmed by the principal. If there are any vagaries in the system, a mechanism will be put in place to monitor them and to ensure a data profile is set up, so that the national and the individual schools' profiles will be monitored. The results awarded in every school will be sent to the Department, so that there is a national monitoring system in place. It will also be subjected to national and international assessments and a full reporting mechanism will be put in place by 2017.
The concerns raised by the Deputies are being worked through the system in advance of the roll-out of the new junior cycle. The first one will be through English in 2014. There will be much learning from that experience in terms of how it will pan out. A significant amount of continuing professional development will be put in place for teachers not only on the pedagogy or the subject side, but also in terms of the modalities of the assessment. There is still some way to go on this.
Teachers are professionally developed-out at this stage given all of the changes they have taken on board and all the professional development they have done. I am a great supporter of the leaving certificate applied. It works, in terms of the way it is corrected, etc., because the numbers are much smaller. I think the Minister is taking a sledge hammer to something which could be dealt with by a very tiny mallet. I do not think our students will be prepared for the leaving certificate without having had that sort of terminal, outside-corrected junior certificate. I know there are other plans for that but there is not enough joined up thinking on this. The Minister has shown he is able to reconsider and I hope there will be much more debate on this.
I take the points the Deputy made but I do not agree with her that teachers are professionally developed-out; they are not. As in any profession, we must ensure 100% of the profession take up continuing professional development when it is offered, including the various types of continuing professional development which will become available for this very process. This is an evolving process and there is still some way to go on this. We genuinely recognise the concern articulated by the Deputy and we are very conscious that we are asking teachers to do a lot. We have asked them to do quite a lot in terms of project mathematics and other subject areas and changing the thinking in regard to moving away from learning by rote to a more collaborative learning type of system, which is difficult to do if one has been teaching a certain system for quite a number of years. We are conscious of that which is why we want to ensure the supports are put in place for those teachers who, as the Deputy said, are professionals in their own right. We want to ensure it is a smooth a transition as possible.
9. Deputy Joe Higgins asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he will reassure parents and teachers there will be no cuts to other education services following his announcement not to implement his planned cuts to resource hours. [32241/13]
Amharc ar fhreagra12. Deputy Joan Collins asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he will clarify his statement that pupil teacher ratios in schools may be increased to pay for the reversal of planned cuts to supports for children with special needs. [32053/13]
Amharc ar fhreagra16. Deputy Willie O'Dea asked the Minister for Education and Skills the implications for the education budget in 2014 of the additional resource teachers announced on 25 June 2013; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32249/13]
Amharc ar fhreagra23. Deputy Pearse Doherty asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he will provide assurances that the allocation of an additional 500 resource teachers to meet the increase in the percentage of children with special needs who are attending school from September 2013 onwards will result in funding being withdrawn from the overall education budget; if he will confirm that he has no plans to increase the pupil-teacher ratio. [32216/13]
Amharc ar fhreagra24. Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív asked the Minister for Education and Skills the implications for the education budget in 2014 of the additional resource teachers announced on 25 June 2013; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32280/13]
Amharc ar fhreagraI propose to take Questions Nos. 9, 12, 16, 23 and 24 together.
I have authorised the NCSE to restore the level of resource teaching allocations to be provided for students with special educational needs to the 2012-13 levels. There will not now be a reduction in resource teaching time for these pupils for the coming school year. The first tranche of resource teaching posts have now been allocated to schools by the NCSE.
A number of additional posts will be required to ensure that allocations can continue to be made for valid applications for resource teaching support received for the coming school year. The full extent of this demand will not be known until September but it may require the allocation of up to 500 additional resource teacher posts.
The implications of this for my Department's employment control framework and Vote will be raised with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and will also be addressed in the forthcoming process in formulating budget 2014. The reality is that the allocation of 500 additional resource teachers could require additional expenditure of up to €22 million by Government in 2014. This is in addition to the pre-existing requirement to identify net savings of €44 million to meet the 2014 ceiling set out for my Department in the expenditure report 2013.
I am not in a position at this time to anticipate future budgetary decisions. All of these issues will have to be considered as part of the normal budgetary and Estimates process for 2014 and beyond.
The Minister was not clear whether that would definitely happen, even though he raised it in the recent reports. By doing that, many people are scared the pupil-teacher ratio will be increased. This sounds very much like the last time, with the decision to reverse the cuts to the DEIS schools and the cuts to the grants to schools. The Minister is accepting the constraints of his budgets. There is supposed to be €1 billion available, which he could source. Is he banging the table or whispering in the ears of Ministers to say we need extra resources to protect people who need this support? We cannot allow any more cuts to people who need resource teachers or special needs assistants. Many schools have cut the number of special needs assistants. Last week, three people in Blanchardstown lost their jobs as special needs assistants. This is an area where the Minister, as a Labour Party Minister for Education and Skills, must put the boot in and say: "No more cuts. The money must come from somewhere else." Has he considered increasing the financial transaction tax by a percentage to ring-fence money for the education of the most vulnerable people in schools?
I thank the Minister for the clarification. I take it from his response that he is planning to hire up to 500 additional teachers in the autumn to meet what may be additional demand.
If it is required.
In a previous response in the Dáil today the Minister indicated that he did not expect any overall change in the number of resource teachers in the system, so the two statements are contradictory. He has brought forward the 500 places from the autumn to now to ensure the extra 12% in demand is met, and there was no clarity until now as to whether the Minister would increase the overall cap. From what I gather, the Minister has indicated he will hire up to 500 additional teachers. Last year there were 500 teachers allocated in the autumn to meet increased demand, so there is every reason to believe the increased demand will come about. Will the Minister give an assurance that the intention is for up to 500 additional teachers to be hired in the autumn to meet demand?
There have been stories in the newspapers this week that it is the Minister's intention next year to increase the overall pupil-teacher ratio to pay for this. Will he give an assurance to the Dáil that this will not be done? It would be unfair and the wrong approach by the Government to increase pupil-teacher ratios in the mainstream. I ask the Minister to assure us he will not consider it for next year.
I take it from the Minister's answer that the €22 million potential cost will not have to come from the education budget and that he is in discussion with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to see if it can be found elsewhere. I hope that is the case as we are looking at another €44 million having to come from the education budget this year. It is impossible to say that we can take €44 million, never mind €66 million, from the budget this year on top of what was taken last year and what is proposed to be taken out next year without affecting front-line services. That is not possible.
With regard to how the Cabinet reaches these decisions, every Department is being given a reduced budget and the Minister in question is told to find the savings. That is not the approach that should be taken and other EU governments take a very collective decision, particularly when it comes to education, where ring-fencing can apply. That means other Departments would have to achieve additional savings but the other countries reap the benefits of prioritising education for generations to come. I do not understand why this Government and the Cabinet operate with a silo mentality, with every Department given a reduced budget. There seems to be little collective thinking and it is not the way to proceed, particularly with education.
Of the three big spending Departments, education has been ring-fenced to this extent, and it is the only Department that is hiring additional staff. That is happening because the population is growing.
It is hiring additional staff on a reduced budget.
The Minister, without interruption. The Deputy will have an opportunity to respond.
It is ring-fenced to the extent that where the student population grows - and we know it is growing - extra teachers required are being hired. That is unlike the position in other Departments. It is only to a certain extent that the education budget has been ring-fenced, as each departmental budget must amount to an overall targeted total of public expenditure. The reason for this target is our current position of deficit, where we are borrowing money to provide public services. We are raising taxes and many people are struggling and finding it difficult, so we do not want to put any more of a burden on them, so to speak, in their outgoings. We must try to find savings within the education budget as a result, which is of the order of €8 billion. Within it I have been asked to find €44 million.
We thought we could find a reduction in reducing by a portion of time the allocation of resource teachers to children with special needs. When this was announced, it provoked a reaction that we all saw and I listened to it before deciding to change the policy. In so doing, I had to say that I will find the resources, as I did with the DEIS issue, where we were not taking out DEIS posts but rather legacy posts that had been put in before the DEIS system and retained. In that case there may have been two DEIS schools beside one another with one having more resources than the other because it got its resources earlier. When that attempt at levelling the field provoked a reaction - I understand the reasons the reaction was clear and sincere - we altered the decision, and I have done so again in this case. The modification means that if we must deploy an extra 500 teachers into 2014, the cost will be of the order of €22 million, and we must consider this on top of the €44 million.
I stated that I presumed I would have to find this resource from within my Department. I was asked to put a figure on that and I was asked where it was likely I would get it. All I indicated was that the only place one could easily get money of that particular order was in the pupil-teacher ratio. I assure the Deputy that no decision has been made. I was asked a question and I gave an open and honest answer to it. The question of whether those adjustments in the departmental budgets must be made, who will make them and when it will happen, as well as the issue of exemptions, are part of the budgetary process. That has started and the budget this year will be on 15 October, two months earlier than normal because of European co-ordination purposes. The process has commenced but no decision has been made so I cannot give an indication or assurance about any aspect of the process until its completion.
The decision to cut the hours of resource teachers should not have been made in the first place, as was decisively shown by the decision to reverse the cut. The country should protect the education system but many people believe it has hit rock bottom and there is very little to give. The pupil-teacher ratio has been increased twice in the past four years and careers guidance counselling has been lost in many schools. Principals have been trying to work through problems for the past three or four years but at this point, as noted by other Deputies, we must hear from the Minister that there will be no more increases in the pupil-teacher ratio. Schools will not be able to cope with that on top of having to provide for students who have been transferred to the mainstream. The decision was taken to put our most vulnerable special needs children into the mainstream so it is the Government's responsibility to meet the needs of those pupils but not at the cost of anybody else. That is the bottom line.
Has there been consideration of issues like increasing the financial transaction tax to provide money for increased hours for resource teachers? I have received reports from schools which have been refused special needs assistant resources despite going through the process. Those questions will be raised in the future and they must be dealt with. The Minister should protect education now rather than bring it down any more.
I am quite concerned by the Minister's response indicating that the only place to find the money was in the pupil-teacher ratio. It seems to be the only area identified so far, and the Minister has not yet given us an assurance that he will not go down that path. I remind the Minister of what he said when he stood where I am as Opposition spokesperson for education seeking the job he has today. In October 2008 he indicated that by increasing class sizes, teachers become overly stretched and pupils are paid less attention in class, with the quality of teaching suffering. He argued that this was not good enough in a modern country and that we should be trying to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio rather than increasing it. That was the Minister's position and people at every primary school in the country would be very concerned about his response today, which is that the only area he has identified to find potentially €22 million next year is in the pupil-teacher ratio.
I will indicate to the Minister that my party has ring-fenced education spending in our pre-budget submissions. We put it to him that he needs to do the same and protect education. I ask that he does that. Perhaps he might respond to me.
The Minister will have an opportunity to respond. I call Deputy O'Brien and then the Minister.
Even if by some miracle, the Cabinet decided to ring-fence the education budget this year and not force the Minister to look for savings of €44 million and possibly €66 million, we will still see cuts because we have had multi-annual year announcements. We will see another reduction in capitation grants of 1% in 2014 and another 1% in 2015 so even if a collective decision was taken at this stage to protect the education budget, we will still see a reduction. We might not get to the question in respect of the Education at a Glance report but that shows that our percentage of public expenditure on education is decreasing from 13.7% to 9.7%. We are now ranked 29th in the OECD in respect of how much we spend on education. I believe the Minister is serious about building a high-quality education sector and a knowledge-based economy but we cannot do so if we keep cutting our budgets at a time when we have an increased number of children going to schools. It is impossible. Something has to give. There must be a line where the quality of education will be directly impacted if we continue to cut and I believe we have reached that point. I believe the Minister is also of the view that have we reached such a point. The Government as a collective needs to seriously look at ring-fencing the education budget.
We must understand where we all are, not just in this country but across the whole of Europe and indeed in Northern Ireland where there are reductions. People are struggling, salaries have been reduced, people have lost their jobs in many cases and businesses have had to let people go in order to survive. While we have been able to ring-fence a certain aspect of the education budget by virtue of the growing population, I have not and nobody else would have been able to isolate or ring-fence in its entirety an entire budget. They might be able to suggest it in Opposition but if they had to implement it, it would be a different case because other pressures would arise.
At the moment, this country and republic can only borrow money on terms and conditions we can afford from one source. That is what the loss of economic sovereignty means. Hopefully, we will be out of this situation by the end of this calendar year. We will still have to borrow money but we will not be subject to the diktats of the troika as we currently are. The troika has said we must get our budget deficit down in a series of steps to just under 3% of GDP in two years.
At the expense of people who need it.
The Deputy may not like the realities of the world but she cannot ignore them, in the same way as I do not like them either.
The Minister, without interruption.
Why is he implementing them?
The Deputy saw what happened in Greece where the country nearly closed down and had to change. We must navigate our way back to regaining our economic sovereignty so that we control our own destiny. Hopefully, by the end of this year, we will be in a position where we will be able to borrow money on our terms at a price we can afford and be able to deploy our resources in a way that does not dictate the speed at which we recover a balance in our budget. If we do not have a balance in the budget and control our own moneys and how we deploy them, we are not an independent people. Every person who comes out of unemployment and re-enters a job if we can stimulate the economy to create and sustain that job saves the taxpayer about €20,000 on average. When a person moves from being on social welfare and support systems to getting a job and salary and paying whatever tax is due on that, the overall average figure is a saving of €20,000. Therefore, stimulating and managing the economy to create employment is one of the overall responsibilities of the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. It is against that backdrop that we must balance matters. Every organisation and household has to live in the same world. The fact that we are trying to do it does not mean we like doing it.
The fact that we have to do it does not mean we either approve of it or like it. We do not.
You are the Labour Party that is supposed to be representing the ordinary working man and woman.
The Minister, without interruption.
What about corporation tax?
All of those measures have been looked at and will no doubt be looked again and those cases will be made but I am charged with answering questions relating to education and am trying to make the case that in a budget in round figures of €8 billion, I must look for a figure of €44 million and possibly an additional figure.
Returning to the point raised by Deputy McConalogue when I was asked where I could find that money, I presume it will have to come from within my own budget. I indicated that the only area that had money of that order and scale where one could do it without a range of other things happening was the pupil-teacher ratio but that was by way of illustration. I said that to find that kind of money, the pupil-teacher ratio is an obvious place where one would start to look. That is what I said and what I intended to convey. No decision has been taken yet in respect of the budget for 2014.
Is it possible to get a commitment?
