Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 13 November 2014
4. Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl asked the Minister for Defence his views on recent claims about the standard of living of members of the Defence Forces that were made at this year's PDFORRA conference; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [43463/14]
Amharc ar fhreagraIt is unusual that the annual conference of PDFORRA would make the news headlines for two consecutive days, as it did this year. It did so because of issues concerning the standard of living of members of the Defence Forces. The question directly challenges the Minister to establish what he proposes to do about the very difficult standard of living many members of the Defence Forces must contend with.
I was made aware of number of issues for the first time at the recent PDFORRA annual conference. I presume the Deputy is referring to the claim that five members of the Permanent Defence Force were sleeping in cars because they could not afford the cost of commuting to their place of work and claims that approximately 20% of PDFORRA’s membership are availing of family income supplement.
There is no reason any member of the PDF should be sleeping in their car. I am advised that military management wrote to the general secretary of PDFORRA requesting information to facilitate the chain of command addressing any legitimate concerns of PDFORRA. I understand that a response has been received from PDFORRA and that individual issues raised within it are now being appropriately addressed through the normal operational chain of command. We have a lot of residential infrastructure within barracks and people should be accommodated if they need to be.
PDFORRA also asserted that approximately 20% of its membership is availing of family income supplement, qualifying for it because their take home pay had fallen owing to various public service agreements and statutory deductions. As the circumstances surrounding an application for family income supplement are a private matter between the applicant and the Department of Social Protection, the Department of Defence is not aware of the number of PDF members that may be in receipt of this financial assistance, or their individual circumstances.
We all accept the Defence Forces have been leaders in change management as far as the Irish public service is concerned. To a certain extent, it has become victim of its own success. The issue of people sleeping in the car is the direct consequence of the radical changes made by the Minister's predecessor in terms of the closure of barracks and creating situations where people were forced to make daily round trips of up to 300 km to their place of work.
The issue of family income supplement is more fundamental. We have been talking about the valuable role our Defence Forces play in observation and peacekeeping internationally and of the pride the Minister, all Members and the Irish people have. Is it not appalling to think that people we deploy internationally to carry out these responsible tasks must depend, in the case of 20% of them, on the Department of Social Protection to meet their day-to-day living costs?
I cannot confirm the 20% figure because I do not know that it is factually true. I have no reason to disbelieve PDFORRA and I will be meeting the organisation shortly to discuss a range of issues. I presume this will be one of them. There are many sectors of Irish society, particularly across the public sector that have seen and experienced financial pressures over the past five years. Members are aware of that. It is important that we are realistic about the context of the financial pressure many Irish families find themselves under and the context of wage agreements, the latest of which is the Haddington Road agreement. It is my job to review pay structures and the way we pay members of the Defence Forces. I will do that within the Government.
A review is ongoing in that regard. It is important to recognise where we have come from over the past five years, as well as the extent of financial pressure that the public sector has been facing. That is the context in which these issues have been raised. Hopefully we can look to a more positive future in terms of income levels across the public and private sectors.
What the Minister said about the pressures on Irish families and income pressures on people in the public service generally is correct. However, it appears that a particular problem arises in the Defence Forces. I have no difficulty accepting the 20% figure given by PDFORRA because it reflects my experience in my constituency, where a large number of Defence Forces personnel live. I am also aware of anecdotal evidence that the pressure on the Defence Forces' credit union is enormous, as people struggle to meet their day-to-day living costs.
The Minister referred to pay negotiations. I have proposed to the House that members of the Defence Forces should be allowed at least associate membership of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions in order that they have an input into pay negotiations. Is the Minister prepared to concede that?
No, I am not prepared to concede that. The Defence Forces are different from other organisations and public sector roles. When one signs up for the Defence Forces, one is signing up to a life defending the State and this is accompanied by certain rights and responsibilities. I am not willing to concede that at the moment, but certainly there are channels within the Defence Forces through which people can raise issues. Arbitration is also available in the Defence Forces. The Government's decision in September 2012 and the review of allowances and premium payments conducted by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform recognise there is a structural weakness in the way members of the Defence Forces are paid, and a decision was made to conduct a full review of overall pay structures and pay systems in the Defence Forces in the medium term. It is my intention that such a review will take place subsequent to the review of the security duty allowance and technical pay which is under way. That is proof we are investigating the matter with a view to making improvements but we must also recognise that the Defence Forces are somewhat different from other organisations in the public sector.
5. Deputy Clare Daly asked the Minister for Defence his views regarding reports of over 20% of enlisted personnel experiencing poverty; if he will take urgent action to address this problem; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [43329/14]
Amharc ar fhreagraThis is essentially the same issue as that raised by Deputy Ó Fearghaíl. I note the Minister acknowledged there is a problem with pay in the Defence Forces but his defence is that he did not know about it or is now looking at it. The facts speak for themselves. The level of pay in the Defence Forces does not meet a threshold of decency in a large number of cases and has to be supplemented by the social welfare system. He is correct that the situation has been aggravated by the austerity cutbacks on public sector workers over the past several years but the roots of it lie in the fact that traditionally members of the Defence Forces have been paid less than their peers in other areas. That has to be addressed.
I take some of those points. I do not want to repeat my reply to the previous question. Two Departments are involved in this matter, my Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. We are trying to maintain a Defence Forces strength of 9,500. We are in the process of taking on a significant number of new recruits to ensure we maintain that strength, which obviously will have budgetary consequences. I will insist that the reviews to which we have committed take place. We will consider the outcome of those reviews when they are ready and, hopefully, we will be able to act on them. Many families and people in the public sector and, in particular, in the private sector have needed support from the State in terms of income levels in recent years, for all sorts of individual and, in some cases, very complex reasons. I do not think we should draw broad sweeping conclusions from this particular matter. The issues arising in the Defence Forces around pay and remuneration will be the subject of a review in the not too distant future, and let us await the outcome of that review.
It is not a case of broad sweeping conclusions. The criteria operated by the Department of Social Protection provide that if an individual's income falls below a certain level, social welfare steps in to bring it to a level of decency. One need only look at the pay rates in the Defence Forces to know why this support is particularly necessary in this context. Irish Defence Forces personnel have always been poorly paid. I was brought up in a Defence Forces family and I know these long-standing problems. However, the problem has been aggravated by the cuts and the 20% loss of earnings since 2009. That has consequences. Unless the review is prepared to examine the basic pay rates for Defence Forces personnel, the problem will persist. The Minister does not appear willing to budge in that regard.
The issue of people sleeping in cars is linked to barracks closures but it is also linked to the undermining of residential accommodation to which, according to the Minister, people are referred. I know of people in the Curragh who are not affected by barracks closures but who cannot find residential accommodation on the Curragh because of the way it has deteriorated and the number of families who have been forced out of residential accommodation due to Defence Forces policy. The Minister has a duty of care to Defence Forces personnel and these pressing issues have to be addressed.
I take seriously my duty of care to Defence Forces personnel. In regard to basic pay, the only pay agreement for which this Government is responsible is the Haddington Road agreement. There was no cut to basic pay for enlisted Defence Forces personnel under that agreement. I will not go into previous pay deals or decisions previous Governments were forced to take. That is our record. We have also recognised the need to review some of the elements of pay and remuneration in the Defence Forces, and we are proceeding with that. I take the Deputy's point and, on the basis of the review, I will have a credible set of recommendations on which to act. When we get the recommendations we can bring them before the House for discussion and, hopefully, the Government will be in a position to act on them.
Pay does not solely comprise basic pay. While basic pay may not have been cut under Haddington Road, it is none the less a fact that the payments to and average earnings of soldiers have deteriorated by 20% since 2009 because of the cuts in allowances which form an essential part of their pay packets. These issues have to be addressed. I note that the Minister is not in favour of giving them negotiating rights but he will be aware that PDFORRA is taking a case to the European Court of Human Rights and, as a consequence of the judgment in the case brought by gardaí which allowed them to access the State's industrial relations machinery, that privilege should be extended to the Defence Forces. The Minister might be better off agreeing that with them rather than being forced to act by Europe.
The only reason I referred to basic pay was because the Deputy referred to basic pay. I accept that other elements also affect people's incomes. I am not pretending this is not an issue. I also acknowledge that other elements of Haddington Road have impacted on effective take-home pay of people in the Defence Forces. Of course we will take note of any legal judgments made in Ireland or the European Union and if there are consequences to those judgments, we will act on them.
