Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 22 March 2018
1. Deputy Dara Calleary asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform his views on the content of the report on pay equalisation as specified in the Public Service Pay and Pensions Act 2017; the actions he will take from the report; his plans for process to pay and equalisation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13698/18]
Amharc ar fhreagraThe Minister published the report on examining remaining salary scale issues in respect of post-January 2011 recruits last Friday. My party sought that report as part of the Public Service Pay and Pensions Bill. Can the Minister outline what he intends to do with that report? A statement from his Department indicated that there is a process, as we are aware, involving the Public Service Pay Commission but it is important that he would also have discussions with the unions about it.
As part of the negotiations last year leading to the public service stability agreement all parties acknowledged "issues of concern relating to the increased length of salary scale for post 2011” new entrants and committed to examining these issues within 12 months of the commencement of the agreement.
In general the issues of concern relate to the insertion of two lower salary points at the bottom of the existing salary scales. We started examining these issues with the parties as soon as the agreement was ratified last October. At that point we agreed with staff representatives that a data gathering and analysis exercise to determine the individuals and grades effected was a necessary first step in examining the issue.
Subsequent to that an amendment to section 11 of the Public Service Pay and Pensions Act required me to submit a report on these matters within three months, which I did last week. The report was laid before the Oireachtas. It shows there has been strong recruitment since 2011 to the estimated 237 recruitment grades across the public service, with more than 60,500 new entrants hired or just under one fifth of the public service. This includes more than 16,000 teachers, 5,000 special needs assistants and almost 10,000 nurses. In reality, that figure would be even higher as the numbers who joined and left the entry grades during the past seven years are excluded.
Importantly, it also quantifies the cost of a two-point adjustment as approximately €200 million and the potential benefit to the individual as €3,301 on average. It should be noted that these costs are not included in the €887 million ring-fenced for the implementation of the public service stability agreement.
It is intended that the report will provide the evidence base for further engagement over the coming months between the parties to explore how the matter can be addressed.
The Minister has continually referred to strong recruitment and the figures he presented suggest that, but among all the people who have been recruited there is a growing sense of injustice at the pay gap but more starkly at what will be the career gap by the time they come to the end of their service compared to those who were employed pre-2011.
We have focused a good deal on teachers in this discussion but I want to focus on the nursing sector. As part of the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation's submission to the Public Service Pay Commission in 2017, it highlighted that 78% of the undergraduate nurses who are doing degree courses in our fantastic colleges around the country, the majority of whom are 23 or younger, are considering leaving Ireland on qualification. It further highlighted that the top three incentives that would entice graduates to stay were pay increases, improved staffing levels and working conditions, and access to funded postgraduate education.
We are educating these people and sending them abroad to places, such as Australia, where they are getting starting salaries of twice what we are offering here. We are taking that pool of talent away from our health service and meanwhile we are long-fingering negotiations to try to resolve that.
As I said, pay is not the only issue. Of those who participated in a survey, and who had completed their internship here, the majority of them were not offered permanent contracts until July of the year, at which stage they had been offered jobs abroad. Therefore, there are other issues in question but pay is the issue that is the causing the most division within our public service at present. We need to act on it urgently to stop a flight of graduates from the service.
On overall public service pay, we are discussing an agreement, which, as of the start of this week, all unions and representative bodies are now party to or associated with. The Deputy has raised concerns with me regarding public service pay but I would suggest to the House that we now have an agreement in place that over the next three years looks to increase public service pay by approximately 2% per year. This agreement has been accepted and ratified by the majority of our unions and all unions are either party to or associated with it.
On the specific points the Deputy put to me, first, on shifting the debate beyond teachers, that is what this report does. It looks at the impact of this issue on the entirety of our public service.
On the Deputy's point regarding Australia, it will always be difficult for us to compete with jurisdictions that are paying twice or more what we are paying, but we can point to other things that our country offers that make it a very good place to work in.
I accept that there are pay increases. Yesterday the NHS announced a very specific pay increase of 6.5% for people in its service. This will obliterate the increases that are on offer here in terms of attractiveness. We need to act on this urgently. There is a growing sense of anger across the public service, including, teachers, nurses and staff in Houses of the Oireachtas, in regard to this pay difference. We cannot afford to lose these people or to allow that anger to go unaddressed.
I understand that the report has been published but will there be an opportunity to debate it? As a former teacher I know first-hand that morale is low among teaching staff. As pointed out by Deputy Calleary, morale is low across the public service. I believe we should have a right in this House to debate this report and I ask that the Minister give us an opportunity to do so.
It is a matter for the Business Committee if the House wishes to debate this report. In recent weeks, another report produced by an Oireachtas committee was debated in this House. If the Business Committee wishes to provide for a debate on this report, it is open to it to do so.
On the NHS and the 6.5% increase mentioned by Deputy Calleary, the agreement that we have is between 6% and 7%, with the majority of the benefit focused on new entrants and those at the lower end of the income scale. If the Deputy is suggesting that we should do more for a particular grade or group of workers within our public service, the issue that then arises is how we do that while remaining consistent with the maintenance of a collective wage agreement. I know from hearing the Deputy speak on this matter very knowledgeably over a number of years that he appreciates the need for a collective wage agreement and the need to maintain it.
As Deputy Doherty is not present, we will move on to Question No. 3.
A note was sent to the Ceann Comhairle's office requesting that I be allowed to take Question No. 2 on behalf of Deputy Doherty as he is at a meeting this morning of the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and the Taoiseach.
Is it agreed that Deputy O'Brien can take this question on behalf of Deputy Doherty? Agreed.
