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Employment Support Services

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 19 June 2018

Tuesday, 19 June 2018

Ceisteanna (39)

Clare Daly

Ceist:

39. Deputy Clare Daly asked the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection if personal progression plans used by a company (details supplied) are a requirement, in view of reports of coercive methods being used to intimidate persons to sign the forms; and if claims of coercion have been investigated. [26510/18]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (6 píosaí cainte)

I am considering giving up my day job, such is the level of complaints being received in our offices regarding the conduct of Seetec. What is the status of the personal progression plan? It appears that people are being coerced into signing forms and that their experiences with this private company are utterly demoralising, with potential data protection issues also arising.

It is interesting to note that the personal progression plan does not belong to Seetec. Whenever we have conversations in here on such plans, nobody every complains about them in the context of Turas Nua or Intreo offices. The personal progression plan belongs to the Intreo service in the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. When individuals present as jobseekers, that is, as people who are seeking work, they enter into arrangements with my Department through which we will help them to find work and part of those arrangements is the personal progression plan. When jobseekers get that plan, they sign it and they sign up to working with their individual agent, who may be in an Intreo office, a Turas Nua office or a Seetec office.

If Deputy Daly knows of genuine cases where people feel they are being coerced, she should forward the details to me. Coerced is an awful word to use because nobody is being made to be a jobseeker. If people want to be jobseekers, they present to that part of our Department that will assist them willingly and they seek our help. If they do not want us to help them to find work, they do not have to stay. Nobody is being made to sign a personal progression plan; it is something to which people willingly sign up in the context of being helped to find work. The language the Deputy uses worries me. If she genuinely has specific cases that justify the language she uses, I ask her to bring them to me. I will make sure they are investigated and will revert to the Deputy on them.

I reiterate that the personal progression plan belongs to the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. It is fed through our Intreo offices and is not the property of any agency working on our behalf. It is a directive from the Intreo service and forms part of the engagement we have with people who present voluntarily to the Department who are actively looking for work and who want our help.

It is fair to say that these are people who present voluntarily and who would like to get work. These are people who, in many instances, are capable of trying to get work for themselves but for whatever reason, they are currently out of work. In many cases, they do not feel they need to be dictated to or talked down to by a private, for profit organisation. The difference here is that Seetec is a private, for profit company which is getting paid on the basis of the numbers of cases it handles.

One woman phoned our office to tell us she did not sign a personal progression plan but was told that it had been signed on her behalf. What service is this organisation supposed to be providing? I know Deputy Shortall raised this issue in the House previously.

The person on whose behalf she raised it has been in contact with us and also written to the Minister. The man who is 46 years old has said he felt utterly demoralised and depressed as a result of the treatment he received. He is willing to find and capable of finding work for himself. He wants to know why a private company was looking for the right or power to contact a future employer on his behalf. If his employment needs to be confirmed, it should be done by the Department, not by a private company. That is the difference or difficulty.

Obviously, the Deputy is right when she says everybody presents voluntarily. Nobody is made to stay or coerced to sign anything. Nobody can sign anything on behalf of anybody else. Whoever told the person who contacted the Deputy that his personal progression plan had been signed on his behalf was inaccurate. It cannot be signed by anybody. If someone does not sign up to his or her personal progression plan, it is not worth the paper on which it is written. It lists the activities on which someone and the person assigned to him or her will work to try to find work. In January the Department published a cohort performance report for the service which showed that 25% of jobseekers who had begun to engage with it in the first four quarters after its commencement had obtained work, 18% of whom had found full-time work and 4% part-time work, while 3% had started up their own jobs. After someone involved in the service finds a job, there is a six-month period of contact between him or her and the new employer. Obviously, it has to be voluntary. It is not something that can be forced on somebody. The reason for the contact with the person being employed over the six-month period is to support him or her in his or her new employment. It is not a case of big brother looking over people's shoulders. We have to remember that the individuals in these cases were out of work for more than 12 months in a single period before they were sent to JobPath. There is a reason they were out of work. In many cases, they were out of work because there was no work available in recent years, which is fair enough. Others may have been out of work for more than 12 months for other reasons. Many of the people concerned value and genuinely appreciate the relationships they build with their sponsors over a 12-month period. In many cases, they want to keep these relationships going to maintain their new found levels of confidence. In others they do not want to do so, which is fine too.

If somebody wanted this kind of contact, obviously, he or she would not be complaining about it. The issue at stake arises after people secure employment. Seetec, which is a private, for-profit company, has been given consent to contact the future employers of such persons in order that details can be confirmed or otherwise. It is one thing to ask John how he is getting on and whether everything is going okay, but it is quite different to require him to sign something that will give Seetec permission in these circumstances. People like John have to sign these documents and will lose their benefits if they do not sign them. This process is making people feel very uncomfortable. Many of the individuals in question are older and have specialised in particular areas of work. Some of them have been offered positions of employment that they consider unsuitable for their skill sets. They believe they are being forced into jobs for which they might be overqualified, even though they want to explore other avenues to find employment in their own spheres of expertise. It is intrusive and demeaning for people like John to know that employers who take them on will be contacted to see how they are getting on.

I assure the Deputy and anybody else who happens to be listening that the system is not in place for the reason suggested by the Deputy. We are engaged in finding sustainable employment for people. The system is in place for six months after somebody finds a job to ensure the employment is sustained. The person who helped the jobseeker to find the job in the first place has a responsibility to make sure the job is maintained. It is not a reflection on the person; rather, it is a reflection of the company and the fact that when people are being placed in jobs, we need to know that the employment is actually sustainable. It is not about checking whether Johnny is doing a great job. It is certainly not as prescriptive as that; rather, it is about ensuring Johnny is in the job and okay. It is about ensuring the supports he needs from the person in the Intreo office, Turas Nua or Seetec who has been assisting him will be maintained. It is genuinely that simple.

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