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Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements

Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 11 July 2018

Wednesday, 11 July 2018

Ceisteanna (1, 2, 3, 4)

Joan Burton

Ceist:

1. Deputy Joan Burton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with European Union, EU, Commission President, Mr. Jean-Claude Juncker during his visit to Dublin. [27494/18]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Micheál Martin

Ceist:

2. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with President Juncker; the issues that were discussed; if President Juncker raised the December backstop agreement; and President Juncker's views in relation to the Brexit negotiations. [27687/18]

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Mary Lou McDonald

Ceist:

3. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent engagement with the President of the European Commission, Mr. Jean-Claude Juncker. [28955/18]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Richard Boyd Barrett

Ceist:

4. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with European Union Commission President, Mr. Jean-Claude Juncker. [29098/18]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (15 píosaí cainte)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.

I was pleased to welcome the Commission President, Jean-Claude Juncker, to Government Buildings on Thursday, 21 June, where we had a very constructive and friendly meeting. This was President Juncker’s first visit to Dublin in his current role. He was accompanied by Commissioner Hogan and Mr. Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator.

At our meeting, we discussed the state of play in the Brexit negotiations in advance of the June European Council. Mr. Barnier reiterated his assessment that serious divergences remain between the EU and the UK on how to resolve the Irish Border question. As the EU side has made clear, the withdrawal agreement must contain a fully operational backstop so there can be no hard border on this island in the future, whatever circumstances may prevail. For there to be a withdrawal agreement and a period of transition there has to be full agreement on all issues. As we both made clear, there is now an urgent need to intensify efforts if we are to conclude a withdrawal agreement and have it operational by the time the United Kingdom leaves the EU next March.

I, of course, took the opportunity to convey my sincere appreciation to both President Juncker and Mr. Michel Barnier for their unwavering support and solidarity throughout the negotiations, as the President reiterated when he spoke in this Chamber. It is clear that EU partners remain absolutely steadfast in their support around the Irish issues. We also discussed a number of other important EU issues ahead of the June European Council, including migration. While noting Ireland was less directly affected than other member states, I made clear our wish to play our part in developing a comprehensive EU approach, based on ensuring strong external borders; solidarity between member states; and working in partnership with countries of origin, particularly African countries, to underpin political and economic development in those countries, so that people can enjoy better lives and opportunities in their home countries.

Has the Taoiseach spoken to the President of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, since the three-page Chequers statement was published by the UK Government? If so, has Mr. Juncker imparted any view to him on that statement? The Taoiseach said on Monday that the UK must be in the Single Market in full or else stay out of it entirely. The Chequers agreement - if it can be called an agreement - between those members of the British Conservative Party present at Chequers on Friday, which is the document before us, speaks of an agreement that the UK would stay in a goods and agrifood market but not the full Single Market. Is the Taoiseach of the view that there is scope to negotiate that matter, or is his statement of Monday that the UK is either in the Single Market as we know it in its entirety or out of it in its entirety his definitive view? Most of us welcome the fact that there now is at least a grounding document which we can engage with, but I am still of the view I expressed yesterday - and I thank the Taoiseach for his positive consideration of it - that we need a legal text covering the backstop agreement that is acceptable so that when we go into the October discussions we are not bundling everything together.

Has the Taoiseach given further consideration to the notion of seeking to extricate the backstop agreement even if he needs to placate the UK authorities by saying that this is ar eagla na heagla, a complete backstop which probably will not be needed, but we need legal certainty around its terms which are agreeable to the UK?

The pace of developments on Brexit has increased. The Taoiseach said that the UK has to be either in the Single Market fully or outside it. We require further elaboration and clarification in the context of the Chequers statement, which, as I said yesterday, represents a significant change in direction insofar as there is now coherence emanating from the British Government, and a clear move towards a softer Brexit. The type of Brexit now being mooted is still unclear. The exact end state sought by the Government has been entirely unclear over the past year beyond saying it wishes Britain to stay in everything. Britain has said that it is not in favour of a Norway-style agreement but rather is seeking something more than just a free trade agreement. Has the Taoiseach a position on that? Yesterday he made comments about compromises on red line issues. Can he be more specific about what he meant by that? He seems to suggest that on one level the EU should be flexible on the red line issues but at the same time it is not compromising on them.

The Taoiseach will also have noted that Mr. Michel Barnier has called for the issue of east-west controls under a backstop to be de-dramatised. Many people see this as an admission that the impact of the backstop was over-briefed last December and that the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste went overboard promoting it as an historic moment. I note that the Tánaiste seems to have taken a more nuanced approach and used a different tack to the Taoiseach regarding the Chequers statement. Does the Taoiseach accept Michel Barnier's call to de-dramatise the issue of the backstop? What steps will he take to do that?

The east-west border issue is de-dramatised automatically when we recall that the island is, for the purposes of quarantine and animal health and protection, regarded as "fortress Ireland" in any event. I assume that Michel Barnier was referring to that type of thing. None of us wants an east-west border, and certainly not a north-south border, but this is the hand we have been dealt; it is not of our making. Does the Taoiseach share the view of Michel Barnier that the Single Market cannot be cherry-picked? The four freedoms exist and the integrity of the market must be respected in its totality. Is the Taoiseach ad idem with Mr. Barnier on that point? I ask that question in the full knowledge that there is a necessity for a bespoke arrangement for the island of Ireland, and that our European partners are prepared to extend that or to depart marginally from that principle to accommodate Ireland. I assume that we will continue to press for that.

Yesterday I asked the Taoiseach about the backstop, which was politically conceived in December and which found expression in March. I require clarification on one aspect of his response. He said that negotiations were still open. My clear understanding is that the European text, that iteration of the backstop, is not still a matter for negotiations and that it is the European position. Can the Taoiseach please confirm that is the case? Can he also confirm that it is not just the European answer at this juncture, but that it is the backstop, as far as Ireland is concerned, at the moment?

The Taoiseach said that he was not hung up on legal text, and that it is about the outcome rather than the legal text. Of course, the outcome matters, but it is only enforceable on the basis of the legal text that underpins it. This is all about legal text, so I suggest that the Taoiseach should be hung up on it.

The Taoiseach said that he spoke to Jean-Claude Juncker and used the phrase, "strengthening the external borders of the EU", which has been used regularly at recent meetings. I want to interrogate what he is talking about and what it means. I will put it bluntly and dramatically, and also accurately. European leaders, including the Taoiseach, unfortunately, are sleep-walking back into the nightmare years of the 1930s, with the rise of the far-right and dangerous, racist political forces. The Taoiseach was criticised over the weekend for what was described as a legitimising and normalising of the racist policies of the far-right Hungarian leader, Viktor Orbán, by the Helsinki committee on human rights, for his evasive and weak responses, and for legitimising the quite shocking calls by Mr. Orbán to put Hungarians first at the expense of refugees. This sort of policy has led to the deaths of 35,000 people in the Mediterranean Sea and is leading to absolute horrors in places such as Libya, where people are experiencing slave-like conditions. Is the Taoiseach worried about the rise of these far-right forces? Have he and Mr. Juncker begun to question whether giving credence to the far-right argument that asylum seekers are somehow a problem legitimises those forces and encourages them? We should face them down in the strongest terms, and point out that asylum seekers and migrants are not a burden on Europe. In Ireland we now have labour shortages. We cannot build enough houses because we have labour shortages. We should resolutely resist the racist, xenophobic, anti-migrant logic being pursued by Mr. Orbán, who is a colleague of the Taoiseach in the European People's Party, EPP.

From the top, I have not spoken to President Juncker since the Chequers statement was issued. I anticipate that I will speak to him later this month when we have seen the White Paper.

As often said, the Chequers statement is three pages long while the White Paper, which we have yet to see, will be more than 100 pages long. Consequently, I would like to see, read and digest that before speaking to Prime Minister May and President Juncker again. However, I do anticipate that we will speak this month.

In regard to the European Single Market, the position of the European Union and the 27 member states that are remaining, including Ireland, is that the four freedoms are indivisible, that is, the freedom of goods, freedom of services, freedom of labour and freedom of capital. It is not possible to cherry pick and it would not be fair to other countries to allow any country to cherry pick. I imagine if the United Kingdom was allowed to have à la carte membership of the Single European Market, far-right, far-left and populist parties all over the EU would demand the same for those countries, and we would begin to see the breakup of the Single Market and the European Union. That is not in Ireland's interest and therefore, it is not something I can support.

There is also an increasingly blurred line between goods and services. A driverless car is a good, in that it is a car, but it only operates based on service provision, which is the guidance that allows that car to move around the place. For a long time, a phone has been both a good and a service. On its own, it is just a piece of metal and plastic. It is the services that make it work. Being able to strictly distinguish goods from services is becoming increasingly complicated.

Not in the context of tariffs.

It is also important to state an obvious fact, which is that the United Kingdom does not want to be in the Single Market. I wish it did, but its Government has said on many occasions that the UK is leaving the Single Market and we need to respect that. What we can do, however, is negotiate access to the Single Market for them, or we can negotiate as the EU with the UK for the United Kingdom to have a degree of access to the Single Market. Perhaps that is Jesuitical but it is an important point-----

It sounds Jesuitical to me.

-----and I think that is where the negotiations can go in the next couple of months. Other people said it was Jesuitical. I think it is very clear.

Access to the Single Market is different to-----

Being in the Single Market, yes.

What is the difference between access on a restricted basis and cherry picking?

It is a trade deal.

That is obviously part of the negotiations that are going to have to pan out. Cherry picking would be having access without giving anything in return. Like I say, I do not wish to engage in a running commentary on the talks and I am not in a position to make any concessions on behalf of the European Union on the floor of the House. Any concessions or modification of the EU's position has to be done by the EU 27 acting together, and I cannot do that unilaterally. However, I stand over what I have said consistently, namely, that if the United Kingdom evolves from its red lines, which subject to the White Paper following through on what was said at Chequers I believe it has, then the European Union can be flexible about its guidelines. However, that change cannot be made by me. It has to be made by the EU 27 working together, and I am absolutely determined that we should continue to be part of team Europe and part of the EU 27. It is a strength in these negotiations that we are negotiating with the UK as Europe and that Ireland has not been isolated from other European countries or caught in the middle. I think that is the way we can get the best deal for Ireland and Northern Ireland. If things did go wrong for some reason and we did end up with a hard Brexit, a no-deal scenario, we would be better off with that being a shared problem for the EU 27 rather than with us going out on our own, having an independent position but at the end of it all looking for support and concessions from the EU, having broken the 27-member state consensus. Consequently, I am never going to do that.

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