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Northern Ireland

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 18 December 2018

Tuesday, 18 December 2018

Ceisteanna (5, 6, 7)

Micheál Martin

Ceist:

5. Deputy Micheál Martin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the grand secretary of the Orange Lodge; and the issues that were discussed. [50475/18]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Mary Lou McDonald

Ceist:

6. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the Orange Order. [50555/18]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Brendan Howlin

Ceist:

7. Deputy Brendan Howlin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the Orange Order. [52099/18]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (11 píosaí cainte)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 7, inclusive, together.

I was pleased to welcome the grand secretary of the Orange Order, Reverend Mervyn Gibson, and a delegation of Orange Order members from south of the Border to Government Buildings on 26 November. The Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs, Deputy Helen McEntee, also attended the meeting.

We discussed issues affecting Orange Order members in Ireland, including Protestant schools, particularly in the Border area, and education in general, infrastructure and the cultural needs of Protestant communities in Border counties. We also discussed tourism projects, including further development of the Battle of the Boyne site and the possibility of developing a Williamite trail from Antrim to Aughrim to encourage more people to visit these places. Further topics included Orange halls and sporting and community facilities in the Border region.

The meeting also touched on Brexit, the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration agreed at the European Council meeting in Brussels on 25 November.

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. I welcome the meeting. He is aware a process of systematically reaching out to the Orange Order has been in place for more than 20 years, including during periods when Orange Order marches were a dramatic source of tension in many more areas than they are today, thankfully.

It is important to continue that contact with the Orange Order, and with unionism and loyalism, in the various forthcoming historical commemorations. I did that when I was Minister for Foreign Affairs. We need to ensure it is a shared history that can be objectively recalled, with a view to enlightening and informing people. The recent Atlas of the Irish Revolution, published by Cork University Press at University College Cork, UCC, is a very good illustration of how this can be done with different perspectives from different backgrounds and traditions. I recommend the book to the House and the public generally, North and South, as a way of reaching some understanding of how different traditions approach history and milestones in the development and evolution of their respective political and cultural traditions.

The work of former President McAleese was groundbreaking. We should acknowledge that no subsequent gesture could even come close to the impact of her decision to host a 12 July event in Áras an Uachtaráin. We have to keep progressing such ongoing interactions. These meetings, however, are not at the core of what has been the gradual crumbling of relations between the Government and loyalism and political unionism. Even the Taoiseach has now accepted that having Arlene Foster's number in his mobile phone is nothing compared to having a constructive relationship. While a solid majority in Northern Ireland is against Brexit and in favour of the deal reached by Prime Minister May last month, the majority of unionists appear to believe the situation is being used to undermine constitutional guarantees to them. This view is reinforced by the attempt of one party, Sinn Féin, to directly and immediately use Brexit to undermine constitutional guarantees.

Does the Taoiseach agree that the continued absence of the democratic institutions set up under the Good Friday Agreement is a major threat to stability and progress in Northern Ireland? That is something which should be a concern to all of us on this island. It is now four months since it was signalled to the media that a new initiative was under way to get the Executive and Assembly working. What happened to that initiative? Is it the case that the Government and all of the parties will await the ultimate resolution of Brexit before embarking on any new initiatives? The original reason for the collapse of the Executive and Assembly was the renewable heat initiative. We now know the Democratic Unionist Party and Sinn Féin were both involved in delaying its closure and so on. Given the imperative of Brexit, surely there is a need to get the Assembly and Executive back up and running?

I welcome the initiative and the return visit with the Orange Order at Government Buildings in November. I hope there will be further engagement. Is another series of meetings planned? I note from the official press release that the issue of Brexit was discussed. The meeting took place at a time of particular movement in respect of the withdrawal agreement. I also note that the Orange Order remains neutral on the issue of Brexit. Will the Taoiseach enlighten us as to whether the Orange Order offered an opinion on the deal that was on the table at that time and whether he had an opportunity to argue its merits? Was there any acknowledgement of it?

I listened to Deputy Micheál Martin who continues to snipe from the sidelines on this. After the Christmas break, perhaps he will consider whether his party will contest elections in the North. It seems he cannot make up his mind and actually play a constructive role. He continues to put misinformation on the record of this House in respect of the renewable heat initiative. There are serious allegations of corruption coming from the Democratic Unionist Party. Then again, with regard to corruption in Fianna Fáil, both those parties and corruption are quite linked. It is not surprising that the Deputy continues to dismiss the core areas that surrounded it.

Maybe somebody will enlighten us on the Northern Bank robbery and where all of the money went. It is still a great mystery.

His silence was deafening when former Ministers for Finance and Taoisigh had no bank accounts and had money stashed-----

-----under their beds and we had votes of confidence and all of the rest of it. I can rehearse all day the corruption in the planning authorities-----

Is the Deputy including his own party?

-----and everything else that went on in Fianna Fáil. We can talk about the Mahon tribunal and all of that if Deputy Micheál Martin wishes.

The reality is that Sinn Féin has played a constructive role in respect of Brexit. We have made it very clear that it is not an orange or a green issue. We have said, in the absence of a deal, that we are committed to making sure the withdrawal agreement goes through and we will use whatever influence we can to convince our European partners and those in the North to support the agreement. In the context of a no-deal Brexit, however, there is a demand in the North, as we have seen from recent opinion polls, for the constitutional question to be put. We have here a united Ireland party, the so-called republican party, which will not breathe a word on the issue of Irish unity. That is despite Prime Minister Theresa May having talked about her union only surviving with consent and a Tory MP challenging the Democratic Unionist Party in the House of Commons by telling it that the people of the North are looking towards Irish unity. We dare not breathe a word of that in the House, however.

I hope Deputy Martin will take the Christmas period to reflect on playing a positive role and doing what the former deputy leader of his party argued for, namely, contesting elections in the North. I ask him and his party to put some skin in the game, stand in the North and put the credentials of the Fianna Fáil Party out there by letting the people of the North decide, instead of sniping from the sidelines in a dismissive and non-constructive way.

I commend the Taoiseach on his contacts with the Orange Order and on his proposal to continue them, all of which are positive. The more dialogue we have on this island, the more we can bring people from different backgrounds, North and South, together in a democratic framework. I welcome that.

During the commemorations in the years ahead, we will remember and recall some very difficult periods in our history when, to be honest, there were atrocities on both sides. During my time in Government and as Tánaiste, a committee of historians worked diligently on the preparations for the commemorations held during that period. The commemoration of the centenary of 1916 was extremely well done and people gained an understanding of what was involved. We look forward to commemorating, recalling and remembering the War of Independence, the Civil War and other events. As I said, some terrible things happened on both sides. I have a question on what happened in certain parts of the country, including west Cork where there was a strong feeling that Protestants were ultimately forced out of the area. Has the Taoiseach asked the committee of historians to consider how those events will be recalled and analysed in order that we can learn from them? Other similar cases recalled to some extent those terrible events in west Cork. A former Member of the Seanad, Eoghan Harris, has written and spoken on this issue at many venues, particularly in the west Cork area. Has the Taoiseach or his Government given any consideration as to how we will remember that? We have to deal with the historical memories of both communities in order that we can bring people together. That is particularly important in respect of young people studying history and becoming familiar with our troubled past. Has the Orange Order indicated any interest in being part of any commemorative and recall process?

I concur with Deputy Micheál Martin's remarks about Atlas of the Irish Revolution. It is an excellent publication and the kind of book one would like to spend a lot of time with if one could find the time. Perhaps I will spend some time reading it over the Christmas recess. I also concur with him on what he said about the work of former President McAleese and her husband Martin. I very much agree that the absence of an Executive and Assembly is a serious problem.

There is a major deficiency at this time both in providing good government for the people of Northern Ireland and giving it a voice in the Brexit talks. The other institutions, the British-Irish Council and the British–Irish Intergovernmental Conference, are working well.

On the future initiative to put the Northern Ireland institutions into place, it really has to be done when the time is right. The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade and I are of the view that the best time will be after the withdrawal agreement is ratified at Westminster, assuming that it will be. We are also conscious that the local elections are coming up in Northern Ireland in May and the difficulties which may arise from them. We are also aware that the Ardoyne inquiry is ongoing. It is a case of trying to find the right time when the Irish and British Governments can both feel the two major parties are in the space where they might be able to compromise and come to an agreement. The uncertainty surrounding Brexit is a major difficulty, but it is not the only one. The renewable heat incentive, RHI, scheme and the loss of trust between the two parties are other factors, as well as the local elections in May.

It was my second engagement with the Orange Order. I visited the order in Schomberg House several months ago. The second engagement was at Government Buildings and we plan a third but no date has been set for it. In principle, however, I have agreed to visit an Orange Lodge in one of the Border counties to meet some people there. We did discuss the backstop, which is not supported by the Orange Order which has taken the constitutional view that it could potentially treat Northern Ireland differently from Great Britain. Therefore, it is an arrangement it does not like. We had a constructive, honest, good, mature, fact-based and thoughtful exchange on the issue which I found useful and which helped me to understand why the order had a difficulty with it. Perhaps I helped to give it some understanding of why it was necessary. It is one of the matters on which we agreed politely to disagree.

We did discuss commemorations but not the ones to which Deputy Burton referred. The Orange Order was particularly complimentary that the Government had done much work on commemorations related to the First World War. The delegation visited the sculpture “The Haunting Soldier” at St. Stephen’s Green on the day it was being dismantled before it met me. It expressed a genuine recognition and appreciation of the fact that most of us south of the Border were willing to acknowledge that part of our history and recognise the sacrifice of those who had died in the First World War. That has helped at a time of strained relations. The delegation suggested we might consider having a First World War memorial somewhere in central Dublin. Obviously, there is the one at Islandbridge, but there was a suggestion that there be something more central on Merrion Square or at St. Stephen's Green. I agreed to give the suggestion consideration.

On commemorations generally, obviously 2019 will mark the 100th anniversary of the first meeting of the First Dáil and the Democratic Programme. The events are being led very much by the Oireachtas under the leadership of the Ceann Comhairle and others. Deputies are aware that an event will be held in the Mansion House in January which will be followed by the State reception there. It will be an opportunity for us to recall the events of the First Dáil. I had an opportunity to read the transcript of the first meeting of the First Dáil which made for interesting reading. While it was mostly in Irish and in a form that was somewhat different from what we use today, I was able to follow a lot of it. What I found most interesting was that the first meeting only lasted for about two hours. There was an event for the Dublin Fusiliers which had the Mansion House booked for that morning and there was a ceili that evening. The meeting of the Dáil was sandwiched between the two. Of course, the majority of Members were not present for one reason or other, with some being in prison, while others were not able to make it. It was interesting to read the transcript. From history, one would think it was different from what it was.

The expert advisory group under Dr. Maurice Manning still exists and advises the Government.

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