Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 11 April 2019
6. Deputy Clare Daly asked the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence his views on the fact that the Defence Forces had a net gain of just three members in 2017 despite a recruitment and training campaign costing in the region of €15 million. [16804/19]
Amharc ar fhreagraThe Government has for many years been warned about the crisis in the Defence Forces. The general secretary of the Representative Association of Commissioned Officers, RACO, recently announced that, in spite of all the hype about the much-trumpeted so-called recruitment campaign, there was a net gain of three personnel in 2017. Unless the Government addresses pay and conditions, this crisis will continue. What will the Government do on this issue? I do not want to hear about the Public Service Pay Commission as we have been told about the work it is doing. The Government must acknowledge that the situation is worsening. What will it do about it?
In 2017, expenditure relating to the publicity and advertising of various recruitment campaigns amounted to approximately €457,000. I presume the figure of €15 million referenced by the Deputy is a figure reported by the media as a saving that could result from retaining existing personnel rather than recruiting new personnel. This figure was provided by the military authorities as an estimate of the cost of training the number of personnel to replace a similar number who left voluntarily in 2016. There is significant scope for misinterpreting such estimates. The majority of that estimated cost relates to the pay of personnel being trained and their training staff. However, I must point out that if the personnel being replaced by trainees had not left, their salary costs would still be incurred. As such, those costs would be incurred in any event. In addition, there has always been a requirement to train recruits and to have instructors to so do.
I am advised by the military authorities that as of 31 December 2017, 751 personnel were inducted into the Defence Forces while 742 personnel exited the organisation. Of the 742 discharges, 209 were personnel who left before they completed their initial training, mainly comprising general service recruits. The long-run average for turnover of general service recruits during training is 22%, while in 2017 it was 28%.
In retention of trained personnel, 533 trained personnel left the Permanent Defence Forces in 2017. This compares to a long-run average departure rate of approximately 500 trained personnel. Additionally, the 2017 discharge rate of slightly more than 8% must be viewed against an overall average departure rate of 6.3% since 2002, with a peak of 8.58% in 2012. The issue of turnover in military organisations is complex, having regard to the range of specialties and internal training dynamic. The impact of turnover may vary depending on the functional area and the ability to regenerate capacity.
There are none so blind as those who will not see. The Minister of State in his response is basically trying to tell me that there is no problem at all and the turnover is normal. There is a crisis. Even the figures he gave indicate that a significant number of skilled personal are leaving the Defence Forces. That is a fact. It cost a lot of public money to get them to that level of experience. They are leaving in greater numbers than was previously the case.
Pay is not the only reason for the increased number leaving. The crazy conditions in which personnel are expected to work are also a factor. According to a member of the Defence Forces who has just returned from a deployment on Operation Sophia, he was working a 12-hour day at sea, seven days a week, with two or three 24-hour duties thrown in. He worked approximately 80 hours a week for an extra €125 per week on top of his basic salary of €435. That is a total of €560 for a 40-hour week with 40 hours overtime. Such working conditions could be addressed in order to save experienced and qualified staff who must endure long commutes on low pay. It is absolutely disgraceful. This is the reason why many personnel are leaving. If the Government continues to try to justify it and state that it is not a big deal as there would be costs anyway, the problem will perpetuate itself, as it has done, and the Government will be responsible for that.
The Deputy asked that pay not be brought into it, but she subsequently did so and, as such, I must address the issue of pay. I have stated on numerous occasions that there are challenges. That is why the Public Service Pay Commission is looking at issues in respect of Defence Forces recruitment and retention. I hope to have this issue addressed shortly.
There are retirements every year. People retire for various reasons. Absolutely, working conditions may be one of the reasons for retirement. There have been retirements year on year. One must have new blood coming into the organisation. Of course, it will cost a significant amount of money to train new recruits and pay the trainers and so on. That has always been the case and will continue to be so. This is about having a healthy organisation.
There are challenges in regard to the current turnover. The Deputy raised the issue of pay. That is being addressed and I hope soon to have the recommendations of the Public Service Pay Commission such that the Government can then implement those recommendations.
This is not a normal situation whereby there is a crisis because people are retiring. For the Minister of State to claim that is the case is shocking. It is not the reason for the crisis. According to a report published in early March, numbers in the Defence Forces dropped below 8,500 for the first time. The establishment level of the Defence Forces is 9,500, so it is 1,000 below the minimum level. Not only that, we are losing experienced and trained members who are being replaced by new recruits. It takes time and money to get the recruits to a similar level of expertise.
I stated that it is not only about pay. The Government's excuse up to now was that it could not deal with that issue because the Public Service Pay Commission was doing so and that it hoped the problem would soon be sorted out. However, there are several other issues in respect of the working conditions of Defence Forces personnel which are driving them out and over which the Government has control and which it could address, not least the long serving hours and the fact that it could implement the European Court of Justice 2010 ruling on working time which was ruled out of order as being sub judice. On issues such as Lariam and certain events in the Air Corps, the Defence Forces have greatly disrespected their staff. The Government could address these conditions. Doing so would indicate that, at least, it respects the men and women of our Defence Forces. Pay is only one part of this issue.
The working time directive is being worked upon by representatives of the Department and the Defence Forces along with the representative organisations. I have previously stressed that I want this sorted out. I want my officials and the Defence Forces military management to sort it out. There is a point of truth which we must reach on this issue. I want it to be sorted out as soon as possible.
The Deputy referred to a member of the Defence Forces having to carry out 12-hour shifts at sea. As part of normal Naval Service life, personnel serve a week or two at sea. They do not come home every evening and dock the ship.
I referred to personnel working 80 hours a week.
Naval vessels do not return to Haulbowline every evening and set off again the next morning. I recognise that life at sea is difficult and I want the pay commission to do likewise.
I hope it recognises that these people put in long hours. I recognise that and I understand the frustration of some in the Naval Service. It is in the pay commission's hands and I hope it recognises the frustrations of members of the Naval Service and the Defence Forces and that we can take on those recommendations.
