Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Cabinet Committees

Dáil Éireann Debate, Wednesday - 7 October 2020

Wednesday, 7 October 2020

Ceisteanna (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)

Richard Boyd Barrett

Ceist:

1. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on arts and culture will next meet. [25611/20]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Alan Kelly

Ceist:

2. Deputy Alan Kelly asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that deals with issues relevant to the arts and culture will next meet. [26661/20]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Alan Kelly

Ceist:

3. Deputy Alan Kelly asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the social policy and public service reform division of his Department. [27099/20]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Mary Lou McDonald

Ceist:

4. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach his plans for public services reform to be driven by his Department. [28337/20]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Mary Lou McDonald

Ceist:

5. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on social affairs and equality will next meet. [28338/20]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Mary Lou McDonald

Ceist:

6. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that addresses matters relating to justice will next meet. [28339/20]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Alan Kelly

Ceist:

7. Deputy Alan Kelly asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on social affairs and equality last met; and when it will next meet. [28351/20]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Mary Lou McDonald

Ceist:

8. Deputy Mary Lou McDonald asked the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee that addresses matters relating to the arts will next meet. [28556/20]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Richard Boyd Barrett

Ceist:

9. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work of the social policy and public service reform division of his Department. [28893/20]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (9 píosaí cainte)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 9, inclusive, together.

The role of the social policy and public service reform division is to assist me, as Taoiseach, and the Government, in delivering programme for Government objectives, and public policies and services, which help create a socially inclusive and fair society.

Specifically, the division assists the work of the Cabinet committee on social affairs and equality, and associated senior officials’ group, established to oversee implementation of programme for Government commitments in the areas of social policy, equality and public services, including matters relating to arts and culture, children, justice, policing reform and community safety, disability, social inclusion, gender equality, direct provision, the Irish language and sport; the Cabinet committee on education, and associated senior officials’ group, established to oversee implementation of programme for Government commitments in the area of education, and further and higher education; the Cabinet committee on health, and associated senior officials’ group, established to oversee programme for Government commitments in the area of health including implementation of health reforms, including Sláintecare and the development of mental health services; and the Cabinet committee on Covid-19, and associated senior officials’ group, established to assess the social and economic impacts of the potential spread of Covid-19 and oversee the cross-government response.

The Cabinet committee on social affairs and equality is expected to hold its first meeting on 2 November and is due to meet again before the year end. The Cabinet committee on health is expected to next meet on 19 October. The Cabinet committee on education is due to meet on 19 November.

A policing reform implementation programme office also forms part of the division. This office drives the implementation of the plan, A Policing Service for our Future, which was approved and published by Government in December 2018 as the vehicle to implement the report of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland.

The Department of the Taoiseach has had a direct involvement in a range of public service reform initiatives over the recent period and this will continue under the new programme for Government. Major public reform initiatives will continue to be informed by external inputs and overseen by the Cabinet committee on social affairs and equality, supported by the Department.

The division also assists the work of the Civil Service management board, which oversees Civil Service renewal; has departmental oversight of the National Economic and Social Council; advances Dublin's north east inner city initiative, including through supporting the work of a programme office, programme implementation board and oversight group; assists the delivery of public service reform through membership of the public service leadership board and public service management group, which oversee implementation of Our Public Service 2020; monitors and reports on the implementation of the programme for Government; provides me with briefing and speech material on social policy and public service reform issues; and participates in relevant interdepartmental committees and other groups.

As the Taoiseach knows, I have been shouting very loudly for a long time about the need to fund and support the arts and particularly arts workers in the current situation who have been starved of funding and supports to date. However, in one area of arts funding there has been great largesse and I call for an investigation into this. It is on foot of a dossier that has been produced by the Irish Film Workers Association. If these allegations are true, and very credible facts are put forward, there is a scandal in the Irish film industry that dwarfs the scandal of the FAI and John Delaney. It needs to be investigated as a matter of urgency. According to this dossier, a relatively small number of producer companies have received over the past five years €668 million in tax relief, money from the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, money from RTÉ, and grants and loans from Screen Ireland. Under law, that money is conditional on quality employment and training. The recipients of that money are required to sign a Revenue declaration that they comply with all legal and employment rights and issues such as the fixed-term worker's contract. The very same groups that are getting this money are, as we speak, in the WRC claiming that they have no employees, that only designated activity companies are employers and that even though they receive the money from Government, they are not employers.

Incredibly - this is shocking stuff - I have a letter dated 1 September in which the auditors of, for example, the producers of "Vikings 5", "Vikings 6", "Badlands 3", and another "Badlands" production, confirm that during the period no income was earned from profits derived from the exploitation of those series. In addition, they have no employees even though they get the money from the Government that is conditional on quality employment and training.

Even more incredibly, under EU law, Revenue is required to publish the state aid given to these companies. The Revenue documents indicate that for those four productions by those two companies, they were given either €40 million in section 481 tax relief, or €120 million. That is what Revenue is saying. We do not know if we gave them €40 million or €120 million, even though under EU law, Revenue is required to be very specific about the state aid that is given to them. That is scandalous and it needs to be investigated. If there is a shred of truth - the evidence is very credible - something very rotten is going on. Based on the allegations in this dossier, I want a commitment that the situation in that industry is investigated as a matter of urgency.

The Taoiseach will know that before the pandemic hit, 72% of artists in Ireland were earning less than the national minimum wage. Yesterday the Government agreed that the national minimum wage should increase by a mere 10 cent. On Monday in a very high-profile decision, the Government decided not to accept NPHET recommendations. The Tánaiste said that they had not been thought through. However, yesterday it took the Low Pay Commission's recommendation of a 10 cent an hour increase even though union representatives had walked away from the table. The Labour Party backs an increase of 20 cent. The difference for a full-time worker between 10 cent and 20 cent is €2.16 in take-home pay per week or just €4.37 in additional labour costs for the employer. What is the point in having a national minimum wage when almost three quarters of artists fall below the line that is set by Government?

The pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, is also a critical support for the arts industry. Those in that industry will not get a chance to return to full work soon. There will not be a chance in any realistic way for this auditorium, for example, to be used for real entertainment any time soon.

There have been some hints of a sectoral approach in the budget. Does the Taoiseach accept the need for a sectoral approach in the budget? We have previously raised this question with him in respect of the hospitality industry. I would like him to reply on the national minimum wage, the PUP and a sectoral approach to the arts.

I object to nine questions being grouped together. I raised four different, absolutely distinct areas in my questions and would like to register my objection and ask that it does not happen again.

Question No. 4 concerns plans for public service reform to be driven by the Taoiseach's Department. I particularly want to raise again two long-running pay and pension issues. The community employment, CE, scheme supervisors and their trade union representatives have, as the Taoiseach knows, been engaged in a protracted campaign that dates back to his previous term in government. Thus far, three Governments have refused to implement a 2008 Labour Court recommendation that a pension scheme be put in place for CE scheme supervisors. Previous Governments have taken the position, as they have with section 39 workers more generally, that CE scheme supervisors are not public sector workers. It is to their very great credit that they have persisted with a campaign that now spans 12 years. I understand the resolution proposed by the unions has been considered by the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection and is now with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform for decision. What comfort can the Taoiseach give to the supervisors that this Government will finally act on the Labour Court recommendation that goes back to 2008?

I mention also the outstanding pay restoration for section 39 workers. The Taoiseach will recall that they joined CE scheme supervisors on the streets earlier this year. Governments past and present have sought to treat these workers as public sector workers for the purposes of deducting pay, such as under financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, provisions, for example, but have consistently failed to deliver on pay restoration. I do not have to remind the Taoiseach that multiple pay increases have been advanced for politicians. I do not need to tell him how that sticks in the craw of society generally but the craw of the aforementioned workers in particular. I could say much more abut this but time is limited. Their case has been proven. The Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, deal reached with the Department in 2018 included pay restoration for staff in 50 bodies on a pilot basis with further payment due in October 2020 and 2021. These commitments have not been met and they must be met.

The Taoiseach has a little over three minutes for a response.

I will address Deputy Boyd Barrett's question on the film industry first. I have not seen that dossier and cannot really comment on its substance without having seen it in the first instance. I do not know whether the Deputy has submitted it to Revenue or to other authorities which may be in a position to investigate it, if there was wrongdoing. I am not clear on the status of the dossier. The Deputy can certainly send it to my Department but again, as to the capacity to act on whatever information and how accurate the information is, I would have to wait until I saw what is being alleged. I surmise that the vast majority of the resources relate to Revenue as this concerns tax relief and so on in the film industry. Many would see such reliefs as a very significant catalyst for the creation of employment in the industry and for creating work for those employed more broadly in the film industry. The Deputy is right that there are state aid implications and conditionality attached but again, I would like to see the dossier. The divide between the tax relief issue and straight grants from the Irish Film Board or from RTÉ's procurement policies would all have to be broken down. What is important is that the basic entitlements of people working in the industry are met and underpinned. It would not be acceptable if unacceptable practices obtained in a particular sector of the economy to which significant State resources were allocated.

Deputy Ó Ríordáin raised the minimum wage increase. Since the establishment of the Low Pay Commission, previous Governments have accepted its recommendations. The Government decided to accept the recommendation that has been made. There are obviously wider issues here. I point out that the Government is supporting a lot of employment at the moment. Under the wage subsidy scheme the State is essentially supporting about 350,000 employees. As such there are issues about some employers' capacity to pay. The rate of €10.20 per hour is what the Commission recommended. No one has ever intervened with the Low Pay Commission in terms of the statutory underpinning of that. In fairness to the Deputy, moving to an ad hoc situation would not be the right approach. We have to work on the unions and employers getting back together for future arrangements, albeit in the context of a living wage. There certainly has to be a statutory system to arbitrate on the minimum wage and other issues pertaining to it.

Furthermore, the Ministers will be looking at a sectoral approach with the budget. We have already provided sector-specific supports in hospitality and in the arts. The Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, is very concerned about the situation because as I have said repeatedly, Covid-19 has had a terrible impact on the hospitality sector and arts and culture sectors. In the budget in particular, we will continue to see whether we can be more flexible with the income supports for those who are working, as well as availing of the PUP.

If I may interrupt the discussion, we are over time. Could we perhaps allocate five minutes from the next question to this to allow the Taoiseach to respond? Do Members want that?

Okay.

We are hoping the unions will come back and there have been talks with ICTU on this. We understand where it is coming from in that regard.

On public service reform and more particularly about the CE scheme supervisors Deputy McDonald mentioned, I will point out that Fianna Fáil has not been in government since 2011 and I certainly have not been in any executive position since then. I have always been a strong supporter of community employment generally and was when I was Minster for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Around that time, I changed the policy to protect the numbers involved in CE schemes, as well as the supervisors and those on the job initiative scheme. The submission is with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, will consider the issue around the entitlements of supervisors and their claims, which were arbitrated a long time ago in the Labour Court. I will engage with the Minister about that. There have obviously been very significant challenges over the last three months since the Government was formed due to the impact of Covid-19, the financial and economic impact of the pandemic and the need to intervene across the board for a whole range of people in and out of employment, in schemes and so on. We will be examining that issue.

On section 39 organisations, I raised this while in opposition. Unions got involved and there were negotiations around that and a process had been put in place for those workers. Again, the Ministers for Public Expenditure and Reform and for Finance and the wider Government will continue to examine that.

We move on to Question No. 10. I think there are about 13 minutes for this question.

Barr
Roinn