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Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements

Dáil Éireann Debate, Tuesday - 3 November 2020

Tuesday, 3 November 2020

Ceisteanna (4)

Peadar Tóibín

Ceist:

4. Deputy Peadar Tóibín asked the Taoiseach the number of meetings and phone calls between his Department and the offices of the First Minister and deputy First Minister in the Executive in Northern Ireland since the election in February 2020. [31373/20]

Amharc ar fhreagra

Freagraí ó Béal (10 píosaí cainte)

I last reported to the House on this matter on 23 September 2020 and since then I have continued to be in regular contact with First Minister Arlene Foster and deputy First Minister Michelle O'Neill. I spoke to the First Minister and deputy First Minister on the evening of Friday, 16 October, when we discussed the evolving Covid-19 position. Prior to that I had a videoconference with the First Minister and deputy First Minister on Monday, 5 October. I had a phone call with the First Minister on Thursday, 8 October, to discuss Covid-19. I also spoke to the First Minister and deputy First Minister on the evening of Thursday, 24 September on the need to introduce level 3 Covid-19 restrictions in Donegal to cope with rising levels of infection there. There is also ongoing engagement at official level on a wide range of matters between both ministers with responsibility for health and between the two health services on Covid-19.

Am I right in saying there were four communications between the Taoiseach and the First Minister and deputy First Minister of the North of Ireland since the start of September? It would be useful to detail the meetings before that as well. The question says "since the election in February", and the Taoiseach has so far detailed four occasions when he was in contact with the First Minister and deputy First Minister of the North of Ireland since the start of February.

I have raised this matter before. Dr. Gabriel Scally was asked-----

I should have included the North-South Ministerial Council and my visit to the North on two occasions when I formally met with the First Minister and deputy First Minister.

We can say we know of six occasions since the election in February where the Taoiseach of the South has been in contact with the First Minister of the North.

Dr. Gabriel Scally, who I am sure is held in high regard on all sides of this Chamber, has said that "if this was an animal disease ... there would be an integrated effort North and South". When he was asked if he felt there was sufficient communication and co-operation between the two states in Ireland, he went further and said absolutely not. In his view:

If this was an animal disease in sheep or chickens or cattle, you can bet your life that there would be an integrated effort North and South, and a huge amount of joint working and joint testing, and it would be seamless.

That is a scandalous thing for a person of the eminence of Dr. Scally to say about the Taoiseach's Government. It is a direct critique of the Government's handling of this situation, and it is no small thing. The Central Statistics Office, CSO, has said that there have been 950 excess deaths this year, most likely as a result of Covid-19. Half the country is closed, families are being pushed into poverty, a great many people are suffering poor mental health and people are losing their lives not just to Covid-19 but due to the lack of capacity in the health service. One of the great weaknesses in the fight against Covid-19 is the lack of co-operation between North and South. That is something in the gift of the Taoiseach and there would be no real cost to the people of Ireland if that were achieved successfully.

In many ways, the Government has put the responsibility for the front line of the battle against Covid on the shoulders of ordinary people in Ireland, when it could exist elsewhere. I have asked the Taoiseach and other Ministers on many occasions where the locus of co-operation exists within the Government. Does it exist within the Department of the Taoiseach, the Department of Foreign Affairs or the Department of Health? To date, there has been no answer to that question because no central location has primary responsibility for co-operation between North and South and no secretariat or staff are employed full-time to deal with co-operation between North and South.

The Taoiseach has given me examples of conversations that have happened, but those have been nebulous, ad hoc and not structured. Does the Taoiseach not think a structured response is required in light of the island-wide nature of this illness? Does he not think it is beyond time that we created a structure to deal with it on that basis? This is not just my critique or that of Aontú; it is the critique coming from people of the eminence of Dr. Scally.

I note sometimes when I raise this issue that the Taoiseach can get defensive, and I do not think we should seek to get defensive on this issue. We must work as an Oireachtas and a Dáil in total co-operation with the people of the North of Ireland. Can the Taoiseach show me a plan of action that consists of more than six meetings between the head of this State and head of the northern state since February?

It is not true to say that it is entirely and exclusively in the gift of the Taoiseach to deliver an all-Ireland approach. The Taoiseach and the Government in Dublin can certainly have a major bearing on delivering it, however. I have raised these issues with the Taoiseach before and I have told him that the systems, North and South, have been anaemic, quite frankly, in delivering the necessary all-island approach. We all know that for the purposes of epidemiology we are a single unit, and the only way to keep any of us safe is to keep all of us safe. We cannot have a reservoir of this virus anywhere on the island because it will imperil all of us.

We have the memorandum of understanding, as the Taoiseach is aware. The job of work North to South and South to North is to give that memorandum much more dynamic effect. The issues we need to address include, for example, testing and tracing on a cross-Border basis. It is insane to have the tracing element falling down between Strabane and Lifford, for example. We also need an all-Ireland approach in respect of travel and coming onto the island. In fact, if we must explore that matter as a construct of the common travel area and have a two-island approach, so be it. As the Taoiseach knows, we proposed that be considered in the British-Irish Council. In any event, we must have an agreed set of standards for self-isolation, restriction of movement and quarantine.

Unless we have these all-island harmonised platforms, and delivery on them regarding testing and tracing and regulation of travel onto and off the island, we will be doomed for the foreseeable future to yo-yo in and out of very restrictive and massively damaging lockdowns and heavy restrictions. They are damaging economically, but also devastating socially for our citizens. As uachtarán Shinn Féin, I state that we stand ready to play our part in the delivery of that all-Ireland approach. I emphasise, however, that it is simply not going to happen in the absence of a dynamic from Dublin, and a real intent to deliver this all-Ireland approach. I know the chief medical officers are in regular contact and there is some contact between the health ministers, but it should not be overstated. There are complaints north of the Border that the southern system is not playing ball in providing all of the information. That is what I am told from the health minister north of the Border.

Be that as it may, however, whatever difficulties exist need to be ironed out. We are coming into the Christmas period, and hopefully community transmission will be much suppressed. I hope people can expect a decent Christmas. We need to set the bar higher and resolve, as an island, that we will do everything within our grasp to avoid another very hard lockdown. I think we can do that, but we are only going to do it on a cross-Border and all-island basis.

I have also raised this issue repeatedly with the Taoiseach. I go so far as to say that the failure to have an all-Ireland integrated strategy to deal with Covid-19 amounts to sabotage of the efforts necessary to deal with the virus. That is how high the stakes are, and all the public health experts, infectious disease experts and epidemiologists understand that point. It is simple to understand that we have a serious problem if we are operating two different strategies, two different timescales and two different approaches. Nothing is more important than addressing this issue.

During our earlier debate on staff involved in testing and tracing - I hope to God they are not on agency contracts in the North - I should have concluded my reference to an email I received from a contact tracer by saying she finished off by stating "the bad treatment and lack of pay are making me seriously reconsider undertaking the role, or, if I do, I will almost certainly jump ship as soon as I am offered employment where I am actually valued". That was on foot of one of these CPL contracts. If that is the attitude of the contact tracers we are recruiting, it does not bode well for when things really get serious.

We need, therefore, an integrated approach. What tangible moves has the Taoiseach made to achieve that and what responses is he getting? I am also curious about what is going on in the Northern Ireland Executive regarding this situation. We will have a serious problem on 14 November when restrictions are lifted in the North, given that the situation is worse up there. It will be a serious problem for the efforts we are making down here to drive down the infection rate. It is a matter of urgency that we renew our efforts to have a co-ordinated, aligned and integrated strategy in our public health efforts. Has the Taoiseach contacted the authorities in the UK concerning the value and imperative of having an all-Ireland strategy to deal with Covid-19?

I reject the assertions made by Deputy Tóibín. They are simply wrong and overly simplistic. There has been very regular contact at multiple levels. That is the way it has to be. I am engaged with the First Minister and the deputy First Minister. At the first North-South Ministerial Council in three and a half years, which was due to the Executive being collapsed, an assembly was held on 31 July. We brought the two Chief Medical Officers along to that, the Northern Ireland CMO and our acting Chief Medical Officer, Dr. Ronan Glynn. Covid-19 was a central agenda item of the North-South Ministerial Council. There was very good engagement on Donegal, Derry and Strabane at a practical level. The more this is hyped politically, the less it is going to happen. I will be straight up. Members can do all the grandstanding they like in the House, but the more grandstanding they do the less effective it will be in trying to get on the ground pragmatic engagement and co-ordination. That is my read of it and I will be straight up about it.

There are two jurisdictions, two health Ministers, two health systems and a CMO in the North and a CMO in the Republic. They meet and engage. The shared island unit is working more broadly. We have created a new unit for ongoing engagement across the board and Covid-19 is seen as an area that should transcend borders given the implications for everybody on the island. There is structured clinical engagement. I am surprised at Deputy McDonald's comment that the Minister of Health in the North has said that the Republic is not playing ball or is short changing them. I do not believe that is accurate. I know this from my conversations with the HSE. These matters should be left at the clinical level in terms of hospitals to hospitals. I do not want to engage in any way in the politicisation of that. It should be practical, pragmatic, clinical engagement on both sides of the Border. That is happening and it will continue. The Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, had a recent conversation with the Northern Ireland Minister of Health, Robin Swann. It was a constructive engagement. That is the reality of that. Deputy McDonald will be aware of how difficult it is within the Executive. Sinn Féin found itself supporting the closure of schools in the North and supporting the opening of schools in the Republic. Different approaches are being adopted. Sinn Féin will know full well the difficulties within the Executive. In this House, we have rows every day, including today, because people want exemptions for this and that. The same applies in the North. Some people in the North, politically, want certain sectors open and other sectors closed. There are different rows about that and it is the same in the Republic. As soon as restrictions are brought in people start to ask, "Can I get an exemption from that restriction or an exemption from another restriction?" This has happened in the Executive. It is my genuine view that the next agenda item is to try to see how things evolve in the North in the coming fortnight with incidences, level of cases, their position on the ending of their current phase of restrictions and the review of that and what they intend to do. This is important from our perspective. Our level 5 is to the end of the month and we want to get the numbers very low. I have also spoken to the British Government and to Boris Johnson seeking to make sure he would underpin and support the Northern Ireland Executive with the funding that might be required to help it support businesses as a result of the restrictions it brought in.

We will go on to Question No. 5. I note that in the next group there are four questioners. If they are going to take a long time asking the questions, we are not going to get answers, but maybe many of them are rhetorical questions anyway.

I would kind of agree with the Ceann Comhairle there.

We can also get rhetorical answers.

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