Paul Murphy
Ceist:10. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the work being conducted by a consultancy firm (details supplied) for his Department. [40645/20]
Amharc ar fhreagraWednesday, 9 December 2020
Ceisteanna (10, 11, 12)
Paul Murphy
Ceist:11. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Taoiseach the amount his Department is spending on consultancy firms advising on Covid-19 related matters. [40646/20]
Amharc ar fhreagra
John Lahart
Ceist:12. Deputy John Lahart asked the Taoiseach the functions of the new unit within his Department or assigned officials with exclusive responsibility for collating and analysing data with regard to Covid-19; the data collated by it; if he will publish this data and lay them before the Houses of the Oireachtas; and if he will outline some of the key findings of the research. [41103/20]
Amharc ar fhreagraFreagraí ó Béal (14 píosaí cainte)
I propose to take Questions Nos. 10, 11 and 12 together.
My Department has been working across Government to integrate data and insights relevant to the management of the Covid-19 pandemic since it began. The Health Protection Surveillance Centre, HPSC, and Department of Health have provided a great deal of data through the Covid-19 data hub. In addition, economic and other data are relevant to understanding the impact of restrictions, whether supports are needed and if they are effective. My Department, working with the HSE and its contractors, Ernst & Young, the CSO and a number of other Departments, has drawn together existing data outputs to maximise the insights that can be gained.
This builds on the existing strong work across Government Departments to better inform the cross-Government Covid-19 response. The objective is to integrate data and insights across a variety of internal and external sources. In addition to the epidemiological update and advice from NPHET some findings include that there is a direct correlation between the number of contacts that people have had and the rate of the transmission of the disease. Differences between wave 1 and wave 2, including the shift in recorded outbreaks from being led by nursing homes in wave 1 to being led by private households in wave 2, contributes to a reduction of 15 years in the median age of identified cases from wave 1 to wave 2.
Excess mortality between March and September is estimated to be between 876 and 1,192. The 65+ age group account for 13% of the population but 92% of Covid-19 deaths. The 80+ age group account for circa 3% of the population but 64% of Covid-19 deaths. Social gatherings of citizens, congregations and specific local events all appear to have contributed to wave 2 outbreaks. The introduction of level 3 nationally did not reduce the 14-day incidence rate per 100,000 people for the majority of counties. Following the introduction of further household restrictions, which we will call level 3 max, from mid-October saw a reduction across most counties. Wet pubs opened in all counties except Dublin in late September. This also coincided with universities opening together with specific sporting events. The 14-day disease incidence rate per 100,000 people started to increase ten days later in every county. This increase was not seen to the same extent in Dublin. The local electoral area, LEAs, in which both University College Cork and the National University of Ireland Galway are located both saw higher increases than the rest of their county when the universities opened. This difference was reduced when the universities went online. Wet pubs also opened in both cities on the same week that the universities opened.
My Department does not have a unit or any assigned officials with exclusive responsibility for collating and analysing data with regard to Covid-19. The senior officials group and the Covid-19 oversight group have worked to provide insights to the Cabinet committee and to Government to understand and assess the impacts of the pandemic and the impacts of the restrictions imposed to manage it. This work has been going on throughout the pandemic with inputs from across Government. Data insights from NPHET, the Central Statistics Office, the Department of Finance and Ernst & Young, EY, which informed the Cabinet’s recent meetings were published on gov.ie. They complement the ongoing public health, economic and social impact assessments which have been undertaken on an ongoing basis over the period, all of which have been published on gov.ie. My Department has not engaged any consultancy firms to advise on Covid-19-related matters.
I thank the Taoiseach and call Deputy Paul Murphy now to speak.
Briefly, to respond to a question asked me by the Taoiseach in the last set of questions, where he suggested that it was not clear to him whether I was in favour of a university model for nurses or not, to be clear I am absolutely in favour and am opposed to the big exploitation of student nurses which is currently going on. We would not be talking about that or the Taoiseach would not be talking about investigating it were it not for the organisation of the student nurses and Solidarity-People Before Profit bringing forward our motion.
I will also re-ask a direct question to the Taoiseach, given that he accepts that fourth year students do work. Does he think that they should be paid more than they currently are? Does he accept that they are currently paid less than the minimum wage and should be paid at least the living wage?
How much money was spent on EY’s analysis and how much did it cost the State? Why did this Government feel it necessary to pay for an outside group of private consultants when we have public health experts? Surely, we have public health experts who are capable of analysing these figures and if not surely we should be investing in building that public health capacity as opposed to outsourcing it in the future.
Finally, after the Government paid for that advice, why did it not take EY’s advice on restaurants, in particular? If one looks at slide No. 27, it has a section which draws on US research from Stanford University and talks about places of interest, POI, categories ranked in decreasing order of associated additional infections. The number one worst category for Covid-19 infections was full-service restaurants. This is for obvious reasons because people are inside and there is airborne transmission so why then reopen restaurants contrary to the underlying data?
One of the bizarre things about this discussion on Covid-19, whether it is spin doctors or consultants as is the case with this question, is why the Government just does not go and do the research. The Government tells us we have to do the research when presenting the Taoiseach with the evidence around the exploitation of student nurses and midwives. It is beyond bizarre. For the record, and the Taoiseach’s consultants or press people could do some research on this, in Britain student nurses used to get paid £15,000 with no fees, as a bursary while they were students. The Tories cut that and in the years following a massive crisis of recruitment and retention ensued which is still persisting in the NHS. Even the right-wing Tory, Boris Johnson, has reintroduced significant cash payment bursaries and the waiving of fees for student nurses and midwives in degree programmes. If the Taoiseach wants the answer to the question that he asked, we want degrees with payments for placements and no extortionate fees if one wants to recruit and retain the nurses that we need in the health service.
I call Deputy McDonald. I ask her to be brief as we are running out of time.
I will be. The Taoiseach did not clarify what that Ernst & Young study cost, nor did he clarify the wider point on the total amount of money expended by his Department on consultancy firms advising on Covid-19 related matters. I for one would like to hear clear, concise answers to those questions.
First, in response to Deputy Paul Murphy’s comments on fourth year students, I have stated that that rate is being reviewed with a view to it going upwards. The review will be finished by the end of this month and will determine that students in fourth year are paid for the 36-week internship during which they are in hospitals. I reiterate that model has worked and in respect of the point made by Deputy Boyd Barrett, the actual numbers applying for the degree programme is very healthy and is oversubscribed every year.
On the data analytics, the HSE has retained EY which has worked with our Department on this, along with separate work by the Central Statistics Office, NPHET and by different Departments in respect of the economy, including the Departments of Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform. The data analytics was additional to this and was helpful and informative. The Government is committed to this. I do not have the costs here with me on EY’s contract with the HSE but these can be ascertained.
On investment in public health, the Government has committed to substantial investment in that area and to a doubling the number of people working in public health. The funding for this has been provided in the budget and the Government is also committed to creating public health consultant posts. That is going through a particular process right now.
On Deputy Murphy’s point in respect of restaurants, not all of the international experience is applicable to the Irish context. That said, we have always said there is a balance to be arrived at in respect of the decisions that we make in lifting restrictions. NPHET’s advice was perhaps to allow an additional household to visit and not to open restaurants. We took the view that we would retain the restriction on the visits to households until 18 December and to open restaurants. We believe that there are a number of dimensions here. People need to get out of their homes in some shape or form. We have had people under very severe restrictions for six weeks. It is not possible to keep people under restrictions for too long a period.
With regard to economic activity, it is important that people have an opportunity to go back to work, particularly for a key period of the year when they and the businesses concerned have an opportunity to earn and keep the enterprises viable, thereby securing employment in the sector into the future. Otherwise, there would be continued wholesale unemployment. Many in the restaurant sector would be out of work as a result of the continued closure.
On Deputy Boyd Barrett's point, we are revising the allowances and also the bursaries. I do not accept his point that what is occurring is beyond bizarre. As I said, there is a very healthy number of applications to the nursing degree programme. It is oversubscribed every year.
For future reference, I understand and accept that these sessions are discursive and that any of us can go off on any sort of reverie, but where the Taoiseach is asked on the Questions Paper a very clear-cut question on costs associated with his Department - in this instance, costs of consultancy in respect of Covid-related matters - I, for one, expect that when he answers on the floor of the Dáil, he should either state there was no money expended or state the amount spent, regardless of whatever else he says. That is the least we can expect. We expect clear answers to cut-and-dried questions.
On a point of order, Standing Order 54(1) states: "A member of the Government shall, in replying to a Question asked on notice ... address each and every request for information contained therein." Question No. 10 has only one request, namely to ask the Taoiseach-----
We do not need to rehearse the question.
Question No. 11 inquires as to the amount the Taoiseach's Department is spending on consultancy firms. The question was not answered in a written response he had in advance. He said in response to repeated questions in the House that he can go and get the information. He had notice of the question. He has advisers working for him finding answers to various questions that are not even asked-----
Please, Deputy, we are way over time. On the legitimate questions, does the Taoiseach want to make a brief response? After that, I will suspend the sitting.
I said in my reply to the House, "My Department has not engaged any consultancy firms to advise on Covid-19-related matters." The contract is between EY and the HSE, on general areas. The firm was asked to do some detailed work specifically on the data with the HSE and my Department, but the contract is with the HSE.
That is very clear.
Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website.
Sitting suspended at 2.03 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.