Dara Calleary
Ceist:81. Deputy Dara Calleary asked the Minister for Justice her views on and response to criticism by Garda superintendents of the proposed policing Bill; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [51417/21]
Amharc ar fhreagraThursday, 21 October 2021
Ceisteanna (81)
Freagraí ó Béal (6 píosaí cainte)
I am concerned that the proposed policing Bill will walk us into a crisis. I have observed the various commentary on it. There were pre-legislative scrutiny hearings. What work has been done in the Department to address the very serious concerns that were expressed, even outside of the pre-legislative scrutiny process? A far greater response is required.
I thank Deputy Calleary for raising this matter. It is important to acknowledge that significant and necessary reforms have taken place in An Garda Síochána over the past few years, and Garda superintendents have played their part in these reforms. I am conscious that the publication earlier this year of the general scheme of the policing, security and community safety Bill represents a major milestone in the ongoing process of reform, and is particularly vital in providing a legislative framework for the implementation of many of the recommendations from the commission on the future of policing in Ireland. The Deputy will no doubt recall that the commission undertook significant consultation with gardaí of all ranks and with Garda staff in finalising its report in 2018.
I attended the Garda superintendents' annual association conference last week and listened carefully to their concerns. Significant organisational reform, including institutional change, culture and work practices, is always challenging, but the Government's aim is to provide a new coherent governance and oversight framework that will strengthen external oversight of An Garda Síochána and internal governance within the organisation as recommended by the commission. Central to this vision is a professional, ethical, modern and effective service that is efficiently managed, properly trained and equipped and is clearly accountable.
The Bill provides for a new policing and community safety authority which will be entirely focused on providing robust independent oversight. It will combine the functions of the Policing Authority and the Garda Síochána Inspectorate, building on their excellent work, while reducing the number of oversight bodies. The Bill will also greatly strengthen the independent oversight of the handling and investigation of allegations of wrongdoing by Garda personnel, through expanding the remit of the independent ombudsman and by overhauling its investigation procedures to support the timely, transparent and effective resolution of complaints and investigations while safeguarding due process for all concerned.
I thank the Minister. Garda superintendents say the Bill will give more power to oversight bodies to deal with gardaí than An Garda Síochána has to deal with criminals. That is the kind of thing that is said for attention at annual conferences, but it is a very serious charge from a group of people who, as the Minister said, have co-operated with reform and are leaders in their communities and of the force.
The Commissioner has spoken about sections of the Bill granting powers to the proposed new ombudsman which, in his direct comments to the Joint Committee on Justice this week, would be disproportionate and unconstitutional and will not withstand an expensive and time-consuming test in the courts. In her response, the Minister spoke about the coherence of structures. The Commissioner said the introduction of a wide range of oversight structures in bodies with clashing and conflicting agreements will see the Commissioner of the day spend more time on reporting. He said he has concerns about the amount of time he will spend on accountability bodies which makes the proposed system dysfunctional and unconstitutional and that there are conflicting remits.
The Joint Committee on Justice is conducting pre-legislative scrutiny, as the Deputy said, on the policing, security and community safety Bill.
I am aware of the Commissioner's comments at the committee meeting yesterday. As the Commissioner explained, we have had good engagement. I have discussed this with the Commissioner. He has come into the Department and we have had a good engagement. There have been ongoing discussions between my Department and the Commissioner during this process. We had another meeting recently and my Department will continue to engage with the Commissioner and the other bodies concerned with the Bill as drafting continues. I also look forward to receiving the justice committee report in due course. As I said, we will continue to work on this. Deputy Calleary is right: we need to get the views of the people for whom we need to implement this legislation. I said at the Garda superintendents' conference that we will listen to them and take on board their views. We all want the same thing: a world-class policing service that provides the service it has to provide to the public. At the same time, however, it has to be transparent and accountable.
Absolutely. We all want that, but to have a world-class policing service we must have the confidence of An Garda, which, at all levels, is losing confidence in this Bill. The Minister has had interaction with the Commissioner but he appeared before the justice committee this week and used the phrases to which I referred so, obviously, he is not too convinced that there will be too many changes. The Minister had the interaction with the Garda superintendents. What about the issue coming from rank-and-file members of their difficulties in dealing with vexatious complaints? Will that be dealt with? When we hear the Garda Commissioner, who is a straight-down-the-line kind of Commissioner, use the words "disproportionate, unconstitutional and will not withstand an expensive and time-consuming test in the courts", that needs to be dealt with urgently, I suggest, rather than waiting on reports.
Finally, I express a concern about the dilution, contained within the new Bill, of the joint policing committees, JPCs, which are extremely effective. It is a retrograde step to reverse the progress and the effectiveness of joint policing committees with these new community safety partnerships.
The Deputy will acknowledge that there has been much reform in An Garda Síochána over recent years. I acknowledge that. It is important we engage with the relevant bodies, as I said to the Deputy. We need to work with the Garda Síochána because it is the superintendents, the chief superintendents, the commissioners and everybody else in the Garda Síochána who will have to help us implement these changes. Change is not easy, and I accept that, but it is important there is engagement. There has been engagement and, as this process goes through the Houses of the Oireachtas, there will be further engagement. We want to make sure not only that we can support the Garda in the work it does but also that there is accountability and transparency.