Dáil Éireann Debate, Thursday - 18 November 2021
77. Deputy John Brady asked the Minister for Defence the progress that has been made towards the resolution of the situation in respect of post-1994 contracts, particularly given the impact on members of the Defence Forces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [56758/21]
Amharc ar fhreagraThe 700 members of the Defence Forces on post-1994 contracts and their families need clarity in terms of the report that has been carried out but they also need the right decision to be made. The Minister has previously stated and given a commitment that he would make a decision before the year end. I note the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is also part of those discussions. Having listened to some of the Minister's commentary, there seems to be a rowback in terms of that commitment to make a decision - the right decision - before the end of the year. Can he outline the conversations that are taking place with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and can he recommit that a decision will be taken before the year end on this important issue?
First, my commitment has been clear and consistent on this and there is no rowback today. I have said to Defence Forces personnel, who I have spoken to in person in regard to some who are impacted by this, and also to PDFORRA, that I would like to make a decision on this to provide clarity for everybody before the end of the year. I am not going to go into the conversations between my Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, and I do not think the Deputy would expect me to do so. We have made it clear that we would like certainty on this issue before the end of this year so people would be given at least 12 months’ notice before the end of next year. That is a reasonable position.
I know of and have read many contributions on social media trying to push me for a decision on this issue. I would like to make the decision as soon as we can but my Department is not the only Department involved here. There is real work for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and it is doing its job. I hope the two Departments, working together, can bring clarity on this issue in the next few weeks, as I said, before the end of the year. That is the commitment I have given to people and I want to do everything I can to follow through on that.
I thank the Minister. Again, the language there is not reassuring. The Minister would like to bring clarity. It is essential that clarity is brought to this issue before the year end for the 700 members of the Defence Forces but, more broadly than that, there is a crisis within our Defence Forces which we have mentioned many times and the Minister is acutely aware of it. We are 1,000 personnel below the levels we should be at. To force up to 700 members out of the Defence Forces next year, on top of the 600 who leave every year, would see a further reduction of up to 1,400 members and a greatly depleted force. This cohort we are talking about are primarily corporals and sergeants, who are the backbone of the Defence Forces. It does not make economic sense. In fact, it makes no sense whatsoever. They are medically and physically fit, and they need to be retained within the Defence Forces. We need to get a commitment from the Minister that he will provide clarity before the year end but also that the economically right decision is made for the future of our Defence Forces.
As I hope the Deputy knows, we have gone through a process and there was a formal review in regard to this issue. That report came to me. I am satisfied that it is a good report. It has also been shared with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, which has a role to play in terms of the cost implications and pension implications of the recommendations. We need to go through the process to finalise a decision for Government on this issue. I want to do that as soon as we possibly can because I know there are many people waiting, as are their families, to get clarity and certainty in terms of their future careers. As I said, I have given a commitment quite directly to those people that we would have clarity for them, I hope, before the end of the year but I am not the only person who controls this timeline.
The Deputy can ask me for absolute certainty if he wants to but I will not mislead anybody. It is my intention to have a decision on this before the end of the year and I am working with another Department that has a role to play and a job to do, and we have to respect that. I am hopeful that we can follow through on the commitment we made about providing clarity by the end of the year. That would be a good outcome.
A good outcome would be the right decision being taken, not just clarity being provided on whether there is a future in the Defence Forces for these members. The Minister said he is meeting PDFORRA next week and I welcome that continued engagement. Hopefully, he will take this opportunity to update Members on his views on PDFORRA and other representative bodies being given the right to affiliate with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU. He has previously said he is not totally opposed to that and that he is open to it. Can he update us on his continued and lengthy deliberations on whether he will see to that legitimate request by the representative bodies to affiliate with ICTU? There are serious issues facing our Defence Forces, including the retention crisis which primarily focuses on the pay issue. That issue can only be adequately dealt with by granting the representative bodies the right to affiliate with ICTU.
I said earlier that I am meeting PDFORRA next week but it is actually the veterans' organisations I am meeting next week. However, I will meet PDFORRA in the coming weeks. I want to clarify that.
The issue the Deputy has raised is a legitimate one. People need certainty and I have said that I would try to give them that certainty before the end of the year. I hope we will have a sensible outcome that is good for the Defence Forces and for numbers. I hope that outcome can provide clarity and make sense in terms of age profile, fitness and so on across the Defence Forces. We can do that and the report I have seen has recommendations that make sense to me but we have to conclude that process and that process involves another Department.
I have an open mind on affiliation with ICTU and I have always had an open mind on that. I also need to ensure that the other factors we need to take account of are fully addressed. As I have said to PDFORRA, it is difficult to talk through some of those issues with it while there is an ongoing court case. I have said that, but I look forward to further engaging with PDFORRA on this issue.
